Upfront about desires and intentions at the beginning

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, LaPi said:

it was one of the more peaceful “break up” I ever had in my life. 

Yes. Because he was upfront with you. He also said "hope you find what you are looking for". 

He was kind setting you free. Now both of you can move on.

Ending a dating situation that isn't working out isn't easy, but it's better to cut losses early.

He's most likely back on dating apps talking to and meeting women. He wasn't that invested after 8 dates.

[elaine567]

The OP is projecting how she feels onto him.
She feels she lost a good thing so he must feel the loss too, but not necessarily.
After the initial shock, she did not storm out, they slept in the same bed and it was all calm and civilised.
So ample opportunity for him to make amends, for him to patch things up, for him to make things better if he had wanted to, but he didn't.
He left things as they stood.
The OP wanting a relationship, and he happy to leave things "casual".  
Impasse.

One sided relationships never work out.
The one who cares gets upset, hurt and ultimately damaged, the one who doesn't care takes what they can get for as long as it is offered or for as long as it suits them.

[Trail Blazer]

Eight dates and one month together... both parties have seen enough to know whether they want to pursue a future together.  

OP did nothing wrong.  After that many dates, only a woman who doesn't seek commitment would not speak about her future desires.

Heck, as a guy, I know after one or two dates if I can see a future together.  If I want it, I make it clear. 

As the thread title goes: upfront and clear from the beginning.  It's important to know where you stand and if priorities align.

[SaraSays]

13 hours ago, LaPi said:

And I was scared all along he still had some lingering feelings so I did ask him multiple times: "Are you still involved with your ex? If she comes back, will you take her back" - and he said always NO, giving explanation.

 

Why did you ask this? Why did you ask this multiple times? I am unsure in what context this would ever come up, as I haven't ever asked something like this, even in long-term relationships. If I felt someone wasn't mentally free to be with me, then I'd not want to be with them. What purpose does this question serve?

[Wiseman2]

7 minutes ago, SaraSays said:

Why did you ask this? Why did you ask this multiple times? 

Yes, wow that's a very weird conversation. First of all no one would answer that with accuracy and secondly it seems to be very offputting in terms of desperation and preemptive distrust.

Maybe people just need to be recovered from abusive marriages before getting inordinately hurt by dating briefly.

 

[Gaeta]

7 hours ago, LaPi said:

Hey, this feels a bit unreal, just days ago I was all happy and flirty and now I miss your presence. (I would leave that sentence out)

It was difficult for me to be that vulnerable and I left without listening to you. I was hearing you, but not listening, and I regret it. (That is ok)

I’m just wondering now if it would be a good idea to talk, what you think? (too insecure, too much tip toeing) I would like we have a talk further about this,  would you come over for a coffee?

 

[elaine567]

Only reach out if you are happy with casual and being a temporary and fun companion for sex.
By reaching out, agreeing to his terms is implied
If you are not happy with that then stay away.

[d0nnivain]

10 hours ago, LaPi said:

I crafted a potential text message. 
can you guys tell me if sounds too bad or if doesn’t really say anything at all? 
 

“I’m saddened and genuinely sorry for the way things panned out between us. 

It feels unreal, just days ago I was all happy and flirty. 

It was difficult for me to be that vulnerable and I reacted impulsively in the attempt to protect my feelings. 

I didn’t want to push you away, come on too strong or create problems where they do not exist.

We had a great time together, every single date was pretty amazing and that’s rare”

I'm sure by now you sent it but doing so was a mistake IMO.  

First NEVER EVER try to address deep emotional issues via text.  It never works.  Communication is 90%+ non-verbal & you lose all of that via text. 

Second your word choice puts all the blame on you & none of it on him for flip flopping,  freaking out & being too immature to address the issues. 

Third you just gave him all the power in your relationship.  He now thinks you are desperate because honestly that is how the message reads.  You are chasing a man who is not even enough of a man to talk things through. 

Fourth he will interpret that as he never has to commit to you because you will settle for whatever breadcrumbs he throws at you.  The message screams that you have little self respect & don't know your own mind.  Therefore you have just diminished yourself in his mind. 

For your sake I hope I'm wrong but I doubt it.  Remember the old adage:  the fast way to catch a man is to make him chase you.  You are not doing that.  You made yourself too available.  

Alas I also suspect his "response" is going to be no response.  He may have blocked you.  Anyway, will you still get the closure you seek by him not responding?  

[LaPi]

2 hours ago, SaraSays said:

Why did you ask this? Why did you ask this multiple times? I am unsure in what context this would ever come up, as I haven't ever asked something like this, even in long-term relationships. If I felt someone wasn't mentally free to be with me, then I'd not want to be with them. What purpose does this question serve?

I asked this and he asked me the same. Because we were talking about our exes and we were sharing the experience and the pain caused by that. 
The question was more “do you think you are still emotionally involved?” 

because let me tell you, I met at least 2 men, wanting to be with me, but telling me later on they were actually still in love with the ex and not open for anything. 
I was literally trying to be upfront and to learn from past experiences, didn’t mean to be intrusive, as we asked these questions always with great tact. 

[LaPi]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

Only reach out if you are happy with casual and being a temporary and fun companion for sex.
By reaching out, agreeing to his terms is implied
If you are not happy with that then stay away.

Reaching out maybe means for us to better understand each other’s desires. Because as many here said, maybe he heard “commitment, marriage” and he backed off for that.

I’m not reaching out because I want to sleep with him. 

[SaraSays]

1 minute ago, LaPi said:

I asked this and he asked me the same. Because we were talking about our exes and we were sharing the experience and the pain caused by that. 
The question was more “do you think you are still emotionally involved?” 

because let me tell you, I met at least 2 men, wanting to be with me, but telling me later on they were actually still in love with the ex and not open for anything. 
I was literally trying to be upfront and to learn from past experiences, didn’t mean to be intrusive, as we asked these questions always with great tact. 

People often regurgitate the same question. Ask how are you, the other person's likely to ask, too. Ask are you planning anything nice for the weekend, the other person's likely to repeat it. Ask how long someone's been single, the other person is likely to parrot it.

What people say isn't a good indication of what's going on, because it's so easy to deceive, or to give a stock answer knowing that's what the other person wants to hear. What they do day-to-day over a long period of time gives us more of a clue.

At 1 month in, even at 3 months in, we're strangers high on limerence. It's why so many connections fall apart before, or at, 3 months. Trust is built over years.

There are topics I wouldn't discuss until 4 seasons have passed, and maybe longer. I'd say I don't yet feel comfortable chatting about whatever it is (and this approach comes with a multitude of problems, too, as people generally don't react well to boundaries being set for them, in my experience). Some people will give stock answers to get the topic over with.

[LaPi]

5 minutes ago, LaPi said:

I asked this and he asked me the same. Because we were talking about our exes and we were sharing the experience and the pain caused by that. 
The question was more “do you think you are still emotionally involved?” 

because let me tell you, I met at least 2 men, wanting to be with me, but telling me later on they were actually still in love with the ex and not open for anything. 
I was literally trying to be upfront and to learn from past experiences, didn’t mean to be intrusive, as we asked these questions always with great tact. 

I haven’t reached out yet. 
now the message is this:

Hey, this feels a bit unreal, just days ago I was all happy and flirty.

It was difficult for me to be that vulnerable and I left without listening to you. I was hearing you, but not listening, and I regret it. 

Should we talk about it?

[elaine567]

4 minutes ago, LaPi said:

Because as many here said, maybe he heard “commitment, marriage” and he backed off for that.

No he didn't. 
You are fooling yourself.
Every fibre of your being wants him to change his mind and be all lovey dovey again, but he knew exactly what you were saying and he said NO he doesn't want that.
When men say they don't want a relationship with you then believe them.

[d0nnivain]

Still too long & tooo. . . whiney, vulnerable, desperate.  I'm not sure what the right adjective is but it's still not a good message.  

Since you are bound & determined to send a message, despite all our warnings not to,  I'd go with something along the lines of 

"Any chance you want to meet me to talk about what happened to see if we can move past the apparent misunderstanding?" 

You have to set up a scenario where you discuss this in person.  You also have to direct & clear.  

My opening words when I saw him would be along the lines of 

I don't know what happened the other night but at no point was I proposing marriage to you or anything close to it.  It's all too soon.  I like you.  I like what we had.  I was interested in seeing what happens as we move forward.  I do want a partner but partner is not necessarily a husband & certainly not you right now.   Are we good going back to where we were before you freaked out & misinterpreted everything I said thinking I was trying to nail you down to getting married 5 minutes after the ink was dry on my divorce or have you been playing me this whole time only wanting some sort of casual FWB thing? 

I am that direct & can be that aggressive when I feel like I've been played. 

I suppose a softer approach would be for you to ask him what he thinks happened.   

[Gaeta]

I would not talk to him about *marriage*. There was never mention of marriage between them. It's only in this forum that people started using the word marriage. 

 

Hey, this feels a bit unreal, just days ago I was all happy and flirty. (leave that out, leave anything emotional out, if he feels you're emotional he wont want to talk)

It was difficult for me to be that vulnerable and I left without listening to you. I was hearing you, but not listening, and I regret it. (ok)

Should we talk about it? (why do you ask for his permission? YOU want to talk, word it as such.) I would like we talk about this further would you come over for a coffee.

[elaine567]

I personally think it is all cringeworthy.
The guy said clear as a bell he doesn't want a relationship not now not likely ever and the OP just didn't listen.
She is still on the love train hoping he'll come back...
This is going to be very awkward IMO.

[SumGuy]

10 minutes ago, LaPi said:

I haven’t reached out yet. 
now the message is this:

Hey, this feels a bit unreal, just days ago I was all happy and flirty.

It was difficult for me to be that vulnerable and I left without listening to you. I was hearing you, but not listening, and I regret it. 

Should we talk about it?

I am always one for communication.

I personally have a really hard idea figuring out what may or may not have been meant or heard, very little actual quotes (and even those are form memory) and lots and lots of  characterization.

I have taken form this, and could be wrong, that you two did have an exclusive relationship (seeing and sleeping only with each other) and he was attentive and communicative.  Things went wrong when the conversation about long-term desires came up and perhaps the label for the current relationship.  If that is the case, I think reaching out is good.

I don't equate seeing only each other, and seeing where it goes as casual...especially at this stage in time (8 dates, 2 months) and life both of you have kids and both of you are still legally married.  If anything, talking want another life partner in such a situation has been called a real red flag here on LS so many times, not for me, but certainly can see why.

What I have taken from this so far (at the worst) is he is unsure if he ever wants a life partner again.

 

Now if he actually said, explicitly, he wants to date other people...then no, don't reach out to him.   

 

Personally, being divorced and having kids myself.  A lot of divorced people want to think long and hard about what went wrong, they did not get married thinking they would get divorced and at the time they were certainly as in love as you are now.  So they would like to figure out want went wrong to not repeat things, either in their own actions, there ability to pick partners, etc.   Add in kids, and the desire to be cautious is very high.

Personally never even introduced a woman have been seeing to my kids until we had been seeing each other regularly for at least 6 months.  And although my goal is also to have a partner for life (doesn't need to be marriage for me) I am very careful if this is brought up as some people do hear marriage, they may hear now or soon no matter how you caveat it, they may hear needy, clingy, he needs to be married, etc.  That is different than if they want to have kids, that comes up soon as it is a clear no go (either way) and if you want them in ones 30s or later say, you have no time to hope someone changes their mind on this.

[Gaeta]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

I personally think it is all cringeworthy.
The guy said clear as a bell he doesn't want a relationship not now not likely ever and the OP just didn't listen.
She is still on the love train hoping he'll come back...
This is going to be very awkward IMO.

Yes but necessary for her to move on, and to learn from this. 

[SaraSays]

11 hours ago, LaPi said:

hey, people fall in love (IN LOVE) at first sight sometimes and for some reasons, they get so lucky that they actually spend and entire life together. 

Disagree. They get high on limerence, and build a relationship block by block, which could fail any day, like every other relationship. People love to rewrite history, to convey something out of Hollywood, to elevate themselves as superior humans who were fated to find each other - the reality is very different from what you've posted here, I would say.

Every single connection could fail at any point in time. Look at how many people's relationships fall apart after 10, 20, or 30 years together. Look at how many people stay together, despite being miserable. I know a couple that hate each other, and are abusive to each other. Both have cheated, both talk very badly about each other. Both can't stand the sight of each other. They've been together 27 years, and are culturally conditioned to stay together regardless. They'll stay together til they die.

Close to 8 billion is the current population. We don't even cross paths with 1% of the people in the world across our entire lifetimes. We have no clue how many people are potential good matches. We can be sure it isn't 1.

Edited April 16, 2021 by SaraSays

[SumGuy]

25 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

I would not talk to him about *marriage*. There was never mention of marriage between them. It's only in this forum that people started using the word marriage. 

 

Hey, this feels a bit unreal, just days ago I was all happy and flirty. (leave that out, leave anything emotional out, if he feels you're emotional he wont want to talk)

It was difficult for me to be that vulnerable and I left without listening to you. I was hearing you, but not listening, and I regret it. (ok)

Should we talk about it? (why do you ask for his permission? YOU want to talk, word it as such.) I would like we talk about this further would you come over for a coffee.

Just a guys view here, from this perspective (mine), the original wording is fine.  In short if he is in to you and does want to make amends, you have a lot of leeway in what you say.

If he is in to you, you being emotional isn't going to hurt (it helps) and I don't think it's wrong to ask to talk.  It's not asking permission, just asking, the converse saying "Let's talk about it" could be read as commanding.   Asking to talk and then saying you would like to talk is fine.    These things do not hang on every word if the person is worth having, a person into you will look for connection, a reason to say yeas, not for differences and a reason to say no.

It helps to put yourself in the other persons shoes.

IF we were exclusive and all into each other and IF I did not say I wanted to date others..to me it is not casual if I am see only you, and we have an active and communicative relationship, and moving, if not have moved, to introducing each other to our friends etc. (as pandemic permits)...that is very much a non-casual relationship.  You know he already lieks amny aspects of having a partner, but heck he is still in a divorce being reminded regularly of all the bad.

ASSUMING ALL THAT...and my honest answer I am not sure what I want partner wise in the future but like what we have (which would be my way in the midst of a divorce and having 2 kids to deal with, off the top of my head) of saying lets see where this goes, no promises, but if what I feel now goes on I would want it with you....especially if I heard her say not now, and not necessarily me.  If a woman then broke up with me over that, then I would pull back hard, like real hard, and be sad and just let her go because one rarely can reason or even talk to people who characterize what you say, then jump to conclusions based on that and then take such drastic action and so fast.

To me that is a major red flag, a whole May Day parade, an over reaction and set of conclusions followed by judgment...that dynamic has ended many a marriage...I'd be seriously thinking am I making the same mistake I made with my ex.  

That being said, showing emotions is not bad at all.  If he is worth having, it will do you good...he needs to understand that jumping to conclusions, looking for confrontation and differences, instead of looking to understand..is not the normal you.  Despite you saying the marriages are long done, they still linger, you are both still emotionally getting your feet back under you, and both may say and react in ways in the moment not characteristic....the true test of a relationship in my view is not that you have no rough patches, but how you address them...with open, fair and non-accusatory conversation or not...a good person is not going to hold your emotions against you.

CAVEAT:  This is all predicated on the assumption he did not say, explicitly, he wanted a non-exclusive relationship.  If he actually said that, not some conclusion that that is what he meant, then move on.

[LaPi]

19 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

Just a guys view here, from this perspective (mine), the original wording is fine.  In short if he is in to you and does want to make amends, you have a lot of leeway in what you say.

If he is in to you, you being emotional isn't going to hurt (it helps) and I don't think it's wrong to ask to talk.  It's not asking permission, just asking, the converse saying "Let's talk about it" could be read as commanding.   Asking to talk and then saying you would like to talk is fine.    These things do not hang on every word if the person is worth having, a person into you will look for connection, a reason to say yeas, not for differences and a reason to say no.

It helps to put yourself in the other persons shoes.

IF we were exclusive and all into each other and IF I did not say I wanted to date others..to me it is not casual if I am see only you, and we have an active and communicative relationship, and moving, if not have moved, to introducing each other to our friends etc. (as pandemic permits)...that is very much a non-casual relationship.  You know he already lieks amny aspects of having a partner, but heck he is still in a divorce being reminded regularly of all the bad.

ASSUMING ALL THAT...and my honest answer I am not sure what I want partner wise in the future but like what we have (which would be my way in the midst of a divorce and having 2 kids to deal with, off the top of my head) of saying lets see where this goes, no promises, but if what I feel now goes on I would want it with you....especially if I heard her say not now, and not necessarily me.  If a woman then broke up with me over that, then I would pull back hard, like real hard, and be sad and just let her go because one rarely can reason or even talk to people who characterize what you say, then jump to conclusions based on that and then take such drastic action and so fast.

To me that is a major red flag, a whole May Day parade, an over reaction and set of conclusions followed by judgment...that dynamic has ended many a marriage...I'd be seriously thinking am I making the same mistake I made with my ex.  

That being said, showing emotions is not bad at all.  If he is worth having, it will do you good...he needs to understand that jumping to conclusions, looking for confrontation and differences, instead of looking to understand..is not the normal you.  Despite you saying the marriages are long done, they still linger, you are both still emotionally getting your feet back under you, and both may say and react in ways in the moment not characteristic....the true test of a relationship in my view is not that you have no rough patches, but how you address them...with open, fair and non-accusatory conversation or not...a good person is not going to hold your emotions against you.

CAVEAT:  This is all predicated on the assumption he did not say, explicitly, he wanted a non-exclusive relationship.  If he actually said that, not some conclusion that that is what he meant, then move on.

Yes, I agree with this. IF there is any interested and all that we had was not just fake... he will want to communicate. That's what I would do. 

If he doesn't want to communicate, meaning all of what we had was fake and weak all along, so then I am fine with it as life is too short to have just meaningless interactions with people we like. 

[Gaeta]

1 minute ago, LaPi said:

If he doesn't want to communicate, meaning all of what we had was fake and weak all along, so then I am fine with it as life is too short to have just meaningless interactions with people we like. 

It's not a matter of it being fake or weak. 

You met 8 times, of course what you have is not strong. At this point what you're looking for is him having a strong  *interest to take it further*. 

LaPi: There is no *love at first sight* there is no relationship *strong* at 8 dates. This is very fairy tail thinkng. strength and love grow over time.

If he doesn't communicate it only means he agrees you 2 don't have a common goal and you are better seeking someone else. That does make what you experienced together fake. It just means it's over.  

[SaraSays]

1 minute ago, LaPi said:

he will want to communicate. That's what I would do. 

This kind of thinking isn't helping you, I would say. He's an autonomous human, capable of deciding for himself what to do, and your ideas only apply to you. This kind of thinking elevates you over him, and you're not treating him as an equal, with the right to guide his own life how he pleases. I know it's hard to accept, and frustrating at times, but we cannot make decisions for others, nor determine what's right for them.

2 minutes ago, LaPi said:

and all that we had was not just fake

There are many possible answers beyond this one that it was fake, as to why he wouldn't entertain any further discussion. This is black and white thinking - everything's wonderful or diabolical.

A person can simply decide they don't want to pursue anything further with us. They aren't wrong for that. It doesn't make them a bad person.

A person can simply decide they don't want to discuss anything further with us. They aren't wrong for that. It doesn't make them a bad person.

Connections can die very easily within the first 3 months of limerence. New sparks are fragile. They have to be handled delicately. You told him it's over, and that'd indicate there's no point in labouring the point with further discussions. All this back and forth consumes limited time and energy.

[LaPi]

1 minute ago, Gaeta said:

It's not a matter of it being fake or weak. 

You met 8 times, of course what you have is not strong. At this point what you're looking for is him having a strong  *interest to take it further*. 

LaPi: There is no *love at first sight* there is no relationship *strong* at 8 dates. This is very fairy tail thinkng. strength and love grow over time.

If he doesn't communicate it only means he agrees you 2 don't have a common goal and you are better seeking someone else. That does make what you experienced together fake. It just means it's over.  

I didn't mean it was strong or we had trust built and all of that. All I am saying, is that if you like something you had, you don't want to lose it, whatever it was. 

How do relationships works long term if it's SO easy to lose what you have? Then why some people overcome incredibly difficult situations? Long distance and such? Because they both want it. 

Relationships should come way easier than this, if both want it. 

 

[SaraSays]

1 minute ago, LaPi said:

I didn't mean it was strong or we had trust built and all of that. All I am saying, is that if you like something you had, you don't want to lose it, whatever it was. 

How do relationships works long term if it's SO easy to lose what you have? Then why some people overcome incredibly difficult situations? Long distance and such? Because they both want it. 

Relationships should come way easier than this, if both want it. 

 

They are built step-by-step over time and with consistency, once the 2 are beyond the period of limerence. They can still fail. Trust takes years to establish. Learning to accept and compromise takes years, too. There are no guarantees.

New flames are delicate, and most come to nothing. People choose to let go of people they swore to commit to forever day-in, day-out. Connections require nurturing every day. They can still come to nothing.