Women: If male mental strength is attractive then is poor mental health unattractive?

[Trail Blazer]

There is much discussion these days about male mental health.  There's been an increased focus on the topic over the last few years in western culture with regards to de-stigmatizing male mental health.

As we all know, men often do not want to talk about their feelings.  Men tend to bottle up their emotions for various reasons, but mainly because for so long, societal expectations have centered around a notion that mental strength and stoicism is an important trait in men, and to show otherwise is to demonstrate a level of mental weakness.

It's generally accepted these days that mental strength and mental health are not interchangeable terms - that they are in fact two different concepts only partly intrinsically linked.

Yet, despite western society's increased focus on de-stigmatizing male mental health, men are three times more likely to commit suicide than women (source: https://healthydebate.ca/2017/08/topic/male-suicide/). 

Causes like Movember (which is huge in Canada and Australia but yet to gain a lot of traction in the U.S.) are really trying to push the envelope with regards to male mental health, and from my understanding are making some inroads.

However, a discussion I had with my girlfriend really had me thinking about one of the real barriers to men letting go of this notion that it's okay to be struggling mentally and to reach out and ask for help.

My girlfriend told me that one of my most attractive traits is my mental strength and resilience. 

I will agree that I do feel it's one of my strengths, but I feel it's easy to appear mentally strong when I have no mental illnesses to speak of and have made good decisions post-divorce that have seen me in a good position career wise and financially.

So, what of it, if I wasn't as mentally strong?  Sure, she still finds other aspects to my being, personality wise and physcially, attractive.  However, could I still be deemed as mentally strong if I were battling with some kind of mental health struggle like depression or anxiety which couldn't be concealed?

I did not ask my girlfriend this as I didn't feel it was appropriate to put her on the spot and change what was an otherwise enjoyable and constructive conversation regarding what we love about each other.  And, to be honest, it did take some time for me to think about it before I could even articulate such a topic in an effective way.

For mine, I feel that as long as women are attracted to men who are mentally strong and show unwavering stoicism under the pressures of life, then there will always be this barrier for men to opening up and showing vulnerability.

So, women of LS, is there a simple answer to this quandary?  Can you differentiate male mental strength with men suffering from depression, anxiety, etc.?  Does your attraction levels decrease with the thought of a man who is struggling mentally, and therefore will potentially not display that same level of stoicism as a mentally strong man?

At the risk of turning this into a gender issue, I just wanted to add that I don't think it's the same for men viewing women with mental health struggles as it is. 

Men generally want to "look after" their ladies inso far as to make them feel safe and secure.  Women offer men very different things in a relationship. 

Masculinity and mental illness just seem so mutually exclusive, with many or most men not being able to reconcile being able to have both at the same time.

 

 

[elaine567]

Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh, the Queen's husband, died recently at 99,  his funeral is today.
I wasn't really aware until all of the recent coverage, just how strong physically and mentally that man was.
He is an inspiration.
Contrast that with his grandson, Harry the Duke of Sussex, who is always whining and snivelling about something or other.
I, as a woman am drawn to the former, and repulsed by the latter.

It may be a gender issue but naturally we are designed as humans to follow a survival of the fittest formula.
The strong survive, the weak fall by the wayside.
Men need to be strong and women need their men to be strong, to produce strong kids, who will survive.
There is no room for weak men...

Whilst we all now grow up in a softer society, I think the old innate ideas still creep in and some women will not tolerate weak men, you are correct.

[Alpacalia]

Depression, as you noted in relation to poor mental health, is a label, but I can see how it might have an effect on other aspects of attractiveness. A proclivity to seem emotionless or invulnerable if men believe women are only attracted to mentally powerful men so in turn they might not readily display their emotions.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Alpaca

[jspice]

For me stoicism is not an attractive quality in a man. 
Genuine confidence in who he is, is very attractive. 
 

I have mental health issues that I didn’t even know were issues till about 8 years ago so I understand what it takes to manage those things. 
My last serious relationship was with a man who suffered from depression but wouldn’t admit it or seek help for it. 
It killed our relationship, not because it existed but because  he wouldn’t do the work to try and manage it. He withdrew for weeks leaving me to wonder where we really stood. 
 

I encouraged him to go to therapy. I went too so that I could support him. Yes continued going and he stopped after the second time. It’s been 5 years now and I miss him every day, but he pulled away from me rather than facing what the real problem was. 
 

There’s a lot more to the story but hopefully this gives you a perspective on what you asked. 

[FMW]

Many of the relationships I'm familiar with, including the one my parents shared, involve the man being publicly "strong", but being able to show emotions (weakness, if that's what you want to call it) to some extent in private with his mate.  The women that I am close enough with to discuss these issues are fine with this on occasion, and it can even be a bonding experience knowing the guy trusts you enough to open up and be vulnerable.  Once in a while my guy will lay his head on my chest and I will rub his temples/arms/back when he's feeling stressed and experiencing anxiety.  I'm happy he shares those moments with me, I'm not turned off.  But definitely in public, and much of the time in private, he keeps his moods and feelings regulated.  And to be honest, yes, that is probably something I do find attractive in him, although I hadn't ever really thought about it.

It's probably a matter of frequency and extent.  Most women, including me, likely would be turned off if their guy was regularly pouring out his every feeling.  But then again I think my guy would be turned off if I was doing that with him.    

When it comes to mental illness and depression, anything that would be untreated, long lasting and a regular part of how someone deals with things would unfortunately likely result in lowered attraction.  There's a point at which feeling you have to soothe and accommodate someone begins to feel like parenting and caretaking.  That isn't conducive to attraction.  I think that would be true for men or women.

[glows]

8 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

 

So, women of LS, is there a simple answer to this quandary?  Can you differentiate male mental strength with men suffering from depression, anxiety, etc.?  Does your attraction levels decrease with the thought of a man who is struggling mentally, and therefore will potentially not display that same level of stoicism as a mentally strong man?

At the risk of turning this into a gender issue, I just wanted to add that I don't think it's the same for men viewing women with mental health struggles as it is. 

Men generally want to "look after" their ladies inso far as to make them feel safe and secure.  Women offer men very different things in a relationship. 

Masculinity and mental illness just seem so mutually exclusive, with many or most men not being able to reconcile being able to have both at the same time.

 

This is a very thoughtful discussion so thank you for sharing it. I have some thoughts. I have never wanted or needed a man to make me feel safe or secure. I am well-educated, financially independent and secure regarding my relationships with my family or others. Going into my marriage and also post-divorce, this part hasn't changed about me so it's probably a character trait or fundamental to myself as a person. This may have meant as a woman I was probably more quiet or stoic or strong-willed and confident than my partners might have liked and brushed off the need for any "looking after". I disagree with the premise that men behave on the premise that men want to "look after" their ladies. This is quite sexist and I think it should be examined also on the men's side, what they take on mentally/emotionally and why this is acceptable in the first place or why it's generally accepted as any different from a woman looking out for her partner.

Women do offer men (in intimate relationships) a space to feel safe and secure. This may be unspoken, as many things are, between couples and shared in intimate spaces. The understanding that two people feel secure, loved and safe in a relationship is shared in that relationship. 

I don't see mental health issues as a problem if it's being dealt with or if a person is working through treatment. Compassion is needed all around and again, that feeling of being loved and safe, is probably the most important in any relationship. Depression or other mental health issues without treatment is another matter. No, I would not date someone who doesn't have a good understanding or good handle on his own mental health issues. 

In terms of attraction levels, what attracts me most are to individuals who are able to see beyond emotion at what's going on between the moving pieces, problem-solve and put ego aside. If this means letting down personal barriers and being more truthful and authentic, so be it. I think that's the point of why we share our intimate lives with others. Without authenticity at the heart of all of this, relationships don't survive.

Edited April 17, 2021 by glows

[Taramere]

7 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh, the Queen's husband, died recently at 99,  his funeral is today.
I wasn't really aware until all of the recent coverage, just how strong physically and mentally that man was.
He is an inspiration.
Contrast that with his grandson, Harry the Duke of Sussex, who is always whining and snivelling about something or other.
I, as a woman am drawn to the former, and repulsed by the latter.

My great uncle was decorated by the Queen for bravery in WW2.  For the short time I knew him (he died relatively young when I was still a small child) he was always a very quiet, subdued, troubled sort of man...and my parents said he quietly drank a lot.  Like so many others, he spent time in a prisoner of war camp - and I think he probably had PTSD.  I don't think somebody like Prince Philip would necessarily have been an inspiration to a man like my great uncle.  I suspect the latter probably struggled with men (and women) who had that gung ho "stiff upper lip, pull yourself together" mindset.  Actually, he was married to a woman with that mindset, and it probably didn't help.  I think he was a brave man but also a very sensitive one who would have been more harmed than helped by exhortations to be stoic at all costs.

I dislike the phrase "toxic masculinity" but I get where the people who do use it are coming from in terms of these stereotypical notions of what a man ought to be like.   Some people are very stoic by nature, and it can indeed be a very admirable, valuable quality..but people of a more sensitive disposition (men included) also have things of great value to offer.  Indeed, we're probably inspired every day - often without even being aware of it - by their artistic output.  On the other hand, there's a lot of darkness out there which often emanates from people pretending to cope when they can't really cope (for the sake of appearing stoic) and developing destructive coping mechanisms as a consequence.  Sometimes they are the spouses, the children or the grandchildren of unforgiving stoics.  People who don't really relate to the stoics they're supposed to be inspired by...and who don't have other different-but-functional models they can relate to and feel inspired by instead.

Would Prince Philip have regarded my great uncle as a namby pamby character who couldn't cut the mustard?  Perhaps.  I think the development of a more open, supportive approach (in recent years) towards men who do struggle and who talk openly about it, is one of the best ways we can commemorate heroes like my uncle who lived a life of quiet desperation and alcoholism for decades afterwards rather than seek help and be shamed for it by the society he'd fought so bravely for.

 

[Trail Blazer]

So, in your opinion @elaine567 if a guy has depression or some kind of mental ailment, this would completely preclude him from being mentally strong?

[mark clemson]

^^  Hmm. I know you're asking Elaine, but respectfully I'm not sure the question (immed.) above makes sense. There are types and gradations of mental ailments.

This is a bit like asking if a physical ailment prevents one from being physically strong. Are you talking about a sprained ankle, chronic kidney disease, myasthenia gravis, or a severed spine? Lots of room for variation there, as with mental illness.

Even WRT to depression there is gradation, e.g. atypical depression vs. SAD vs. MDD or PDD.

[basil67]

16 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

For mine, I feel that as long as women are attracted to men who are mentally strong and show unwavering stoicism under the pressures of life, then there will always be this barrier for men to opening up and showing vulnerability.  

 

The whole premise of your discussion is false.   There have been many women writing here who wish their men would show vulnerability.  To open up about their feelings and thoughts and worries.   So straight of the bat, you will see that there's a lid for every pot.   

 

 

[Trail Blazer]

16 minutes ago, basil67 said:

The whole premise of your discussion is false.   There have been many women writing here who wish their men would show vulnerability.  To open up about their feelings and thoughts and worries.   So straight of the bat, you will see that there's a lid for every pot.   

 

 

With respect, "the whole premise" is not false.  It's an important discussion which needs to be broached.  I don't profess to have all the answers, but I am sharing my view on the situation.

Sure, there are many women who say they want their men to open up, but in my experience what people say they want and what the resultant reality of that outcome can often arrive with unintended consequences.

 

[Trail Blazer]

35 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

^^  Hmm. I know you're asking Elaine, but respectfully I'm not sure the question (immed.) above makes sense. There are types and gradations of mental ailments.

This is a bit like asking if a physical ailment prevents one from being physically strong. Are you talking about a sprained ankle, chronic kidney disease, myasthenia gravis, or a severed spine? Lots of room for variation there, as with mental illness.

Even WRT to depression there is gradation, e.g. atypical depression vs. SAD vs. MDD or PDD.

It was in direct response to what elaine said.  I will allow her to elaborate further.

[basil67]

28 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

With respect, "the whole premise" is not false.  It's an important discussion which needs to be broached.  I don't profess to have all the answers, but I am sharing my view on the situation.

Sure, there are many women who say they want their men to open up, but in my experience what people say they want and what the resultant reality of that outcome can often arrive with unintended consequences.

But isn't your theory working on the premise that women want strong stoic men who don't show vulnerability?

And for every woman who may want a guy who shows emotion and finds herself with a guy who's too emotional, there's another who was initially attracted to a guy's stoicism and desire to protect who now wishes he'd let her in.  And see her as a capable woman who doesn't need protecting.  

Edit to add: I agree that male mental health is a very important subject.  But I find it problematic that you, as a man, lead the conversation around men's mental health based around what you say women want.   Wouldn't it be smarter to drop your broad assumptions and lead by asking women what they want in a man and how his mental health may impact this?

Edited April 17, 2021 by basil67

[basil67]

@Trail BlazerSo, on asking what women want, how about you now go back to your girlfriend and ask what she'd think of you/how she'd react if you did end up going into a depression.  Would she lose attraction?  Would she think that you should just 'man up'?    Or would she be there to love you and support you through it?  

And how would her reaction affect the way you'd deal with this mental health crisis?   

 

[Trail Blazer]

9 hours ago, jspice said:

For me stoicism is not an attractive quality in a man. 
Genuine confidence in who he is, is very attractive. 
 

I have mental health issues that I didn’t even know were issues till about 8 years ago so I understand what it takes to manage those things. 
My last serious relationship was with a man who suffered from depression but wouldn’t admit it or seek help for it. 
It killed our relationship, not because it existed but because  he wouldn’t do the work to try and manage it. He withdrew for weeks leaving me to wonder where we really stood. 
 

I encouraged him to go to therapy. I went too so that I could support him. Yes continued going and he stopped after the second time. It’s been 5 years now and I miss him every day, but he pulled away from me rather than facing what the real problem was. 
 

There’s a lot more to the story but hopefully this gives you a perspective on what you asked. 

I can see how your ex's behavior affected the relationship and how, kept unchecked, mental health issues are more damaging than dealing with them. 

Of course, everything in life is better when it's dealt with, but the problem is, how do we get men to deal with them when many men are convinced that their mental health is tiee into their mental strength?

It's interesting to note that women almost universally say they're attracted to confidence.  So, what makes a man confident? 

I can only speak for myself by saying that I'm confident for a myriad reasons, none of which I'll bother listing because it's not relevant. 

What is relevant, is that I feel that if I were struggling with anxiety or depression, I couldn't carry myself with nearly as much confidence.  In short, I'm confident because I back myself to get through whatever life throws at me. 

If I had anxiety, I don't think I could face life in the same way.  My mom has anxiety and I've seen how it has limited her in life.  She always wants to stay in her comfort zone.  She's not confident to try new things, because new things seem scary.

I have a couple of buddies who have mental health struggles.  For one, it has gotten worse over time, and it's affected the way he carries himself in life.  He's not confident because he is insecure about it.  Confidence comes with mental strength - if you're mentally strong, you're naturally confident, unless it's false bravado.

 

 

[basil67]

13 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

In short, I'm confident because I back myself to get through whatever life throws at me. 

So you lose your partner or child in a catastrophic accident and you'll just get on with life?  No need for help or support?

[FMW]

The man I'm involved with has anxiety issues and is on medication for it.  Most people would be very surprised to know that, because his job is performing music in front of crowds and interacting with them on and off stage.   He does it beautifully.  But after gigs, when we're alone, he decompresses and releases that anxiety in private, and with me.  I'm happy he feels comfortable being vulnerable with me in that way and it actually increases my attraction/closeness to him.  But my feelings are probably greatly influenced by the way he handles things publicly, the cool and confidence he displays.  And I would in no way describe it as false bravado.  It's just the ability to channel and focus the anxiety into something productive when necessary.

So it's not exactly a straightforward issue.  Women can handle, and even desire, vulnerability and a certain level of weakness.  But there are parameters and limits for most.

Edited April 18, 2021 by FMW

[Trail Blazer]

9 hours ago, glows said:

This is a very thoughtful discussion so thank you for sharing it. I have some thoughts. I have never wanted or needed a man to make me feel safe or secure. I am well-educated, financially independent and secure regarding my relationships with my family or others. Going into my marriage and also post-divorce, this part hasn't changed about me so it's probably a character trait or fundamental to myself as a person. This may have meant as a woman I was probably more quiet or stoic or strong-willed and confident than my partners might have liked and brushed off the need for any "looking after". I disagree with the premise that men behave on the premise that men want to "look after" their ladies. This is quite sexist and I think it should be examined also on the men's side, what they take on mentally/emotionally and why this is acceptable in the first place or why it's generally accepted as any different from a woman looking out for her partner.

Women do offer men (in intimate relationships) a space to feel safe and secure. This may be unspoken, as many things are, between couples and shared in intimate spaces. The understanding that two people feel secure, loved and safe in a relationship is shared in that relationship. 

I don't see mental health issues as a problem if it's being dealt with or if a person is working through treatment. Compassion is needed all around and again, that feeling of being loved and safe, is probably the most important in any relationship. Depression or other mental health issues without treatment is another matter. No, I would not date someone who doesn't have a good understanding or good handle on his own mental health issues. 

In terms of attraction levels, what attracts me most are to individuals who are able to see beyond emotion at what's going on between the moving pieces, problem-solve and put ego aside. If this means letting down personal barriers and being more truthful and authentic, so be it. I think that's the point of why we share our intimate lives with others. Without authenticity at the heart of all of this, relationships don't survive.

Thanks for the kind words.  I appreciate your response and where you're coming from.  My girlfriend is also a well-educated and financially secure woman.  She doesn't "need" a man to provide for her. 

However, I have heard before that even the strongest of women feel relieved when they don't have to be strong all the time and that a guy who makes her feel safe and secure allows her to rest in her femininity.

My girlfriend is quite capable of fending for herself, but yet, despite not needing to be looked after, she told me that my mental strength and resilience was attractive.

I guess for mine, it's hard to reconcile that mental strength and mental health have no correlation with one another.  Like many men, it would feel as though an admission of some kind of mental health issue is ipso facto an admission of mental weakness. 

That's where one of the big barriers lie.

[dramafreezone]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

The whole premise of your discussion is false.   There have been many women writing here who wish their men would show vulnerability.  To open up about their feelings and thoughts and worries.   So straight of the bat, you will see that there's a lid for every pot.   

 

 

Yeah I've heard of some women wanting their men to "show vulnerability" and quite honestly I don't get what purpose it serves.  Almost seems like a shyt test to be honest.

Every man has feelings and worries.  Those that aren't open with their worries and thoughts process and resolve their problems internally, which is why you don't hear about it from him.  Asking that person to be vulnerable is like asking someone emotional to be more calm.  No one likes to be told to act against their nature.

[Trail Blazer]

2 minutes ago, basil67 said:

So you lose your partner or child in a catastrophic accident and you'll just get on with life?  No need for help or support?

I think you know what I meant but you're trying to twist what I said.  Obviously my point was that every day life issues I can deal with, within reason. 

When it comes to dealing with catastrophic accidents where I'd lose a partner or child, that would most probably require therapy for even the mentally toughest individual.

I feel I should note that if it were only such extremes that caused situational depression, mental health wouldn't be nearly the issue that it is.

The fact that people struggle with depression and anxiety which isn't related to trauma, suggests that pervasive across a broad spectrum of society, for both sexes.

What I'm trying to ascertain from this thread is whether or not female attraction to men's mental strength is compromised when, for his own mental health, he needs to let his guard down and stop being strong for a bit.

[basil67]

5 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

I guess for mine, it's hard to reconcile that mental strength and mental health have no correlation with one another. 

I think that war veterans with PTSD would be a great example how mental strength is not related to mental health.   Strong, brave men prepared to risk their lives for what they believe in....who are then mentally damaged by war.   

 

 

[basil67]

1 minute ago, dramafreezone said:

Yeah I've heard of some women wanting their men to "show vulnerability" and quite honestly I don't get what purpose it serves. 

Women connect and get to know each other deeply by sharing of feelings.    So when a woman wants this, she's wanting to connect with him on a deeper emotional level.  

[jspice]

37 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

 

Of course, everything in life is better when it's dealt with, but the problem is, how do we get men to deal with them when many men are convinced that their mental health is tiee into their mental strength?

 

 

I think when other men make it ok to show that vulnerability, it’s a good first step. 
You only have to read this board to see how men disparage others. I loathe the Alpha/ Beta talk but that’s what comes out every single time. It’s not women who mostly  use those labels but other men. 

[redacted]
As women, we can absolutely give men a safe space to be vulnerable. Vulnerable doesn’t mean weak. But how do other MEN respond to that vulnerability? 

Do they make it ok or do they disparage him? 
MEN have the wrong idea about what a man should be. 
 

Edited April 18, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
gender wars

[Alpacalia]

17 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

I guess for mine, it's hard to reconcile that mental strength and mental health have no correlation with one another.  Like many men, it would feel as though an admission of some kind of mental health issue is ipso facto an admission of mental weakness.

Taking the time to understand ourselves and the motivations that drive our behavior is part of being "mentally healthy." That, I believe, necessitates a certain degree of mental strength and courage.

[basil67]

6 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

What I'm trying to ascertain from this thread is whether or not female attraction to men's mental strength is compromised when, for his own mental health, he needs to let his guard down and stop being strong for a bit.

This goes back to what I said at the very beginning about different women wanting different things.  We're not all the same.  Some women want a man who shares his thoughts, feelings and vulnerability.  Some don't.