Women: If male mental strength is attractive then is poor mental health unattractive?

[glows]

On 4/17/2021 at 5:14 PM, Trail Blazer said:

I guess for mine, it's hard to reconcile that mental strength and mental health have no correlation with one another.  Like many men, it would feel as though an admission of some kind of mental health issue is ipso facto an admission of mental weakness. 

That's where one of the big barriers lie.

It's a fine line, imo. I think this could have the potential to get messy because we're implicating how mental illness is interpreted. Female roles also require strength and resiliency. I would find it unreal and unrealistic when a man remains stoic or isn't able to show more of a human side. It's unnatural because that's what was expected of me in a previous relationship. I wouldn't expect that out of a partner or cause someone to think this is a de facto type of required behaviour in order to function normally or in a healthy relationship. 

Balance to me is always key. Openness.. and that authenticity I mentioned earlier. I like fluidity, lots of sharing, kindness, curiosity to learn or try new things and elevating each other regardless of whether it means being vulnerable or uncomfortable sometimes. I think it's worth it and this is what I would recognize as real mental strength.

Edited April 19, 2021 by glows

[SumGuy]

On 4/17/2021 at 8:24 PM, Trail Blazer said:

...

What I'm trying to ascertain from this thread is whether or not female attraction to men's mental strength is compromised when, for his own mental health, he needs to let his guard down and stop being strong for a bit.

It all depends on the woman.  I've had relationships with both, really have been lucky in almost all women been with do not so judge....it took being in a relationship with a judgmental woman for me to learn and apply filters.

In my very own experience, women who hold strongly to ideas of "traditional" gender roles or strongly to "traditional/natural" masculine and feminine energy (as some real biological thing, not a mystical shorthand) are women I would not let my guard down with..no matter what is said.

I am not saying all women with strong "traditional/natural views" are like this, just what the woman I found to be judgmental had in common in my limited experience,...more saying have never had any issues with women who disbelieved this stuff or only gave it some weak acknowledgement as some people fit that, and view it as almost entirely cultural.

[basil67]

On 4/19/2021 at 12:38 AM, Trail Blazer said:

As for your second paragraph, it does sound like you ex-husband was bottling up emotions and, as a result of having no outlet to purge his emotions, he was profoundly affected, which was ultimately fatal for the marriage.

No, this was not at all the case at all.  His "depression" manifested itself in his absolute exhaustion, hopelessness, not wanting to go out (wouldn't even come do grocery shopping with me or to a movie), negative beliefs about all kinds of things.   I knew exactly how he felt, but like I said, back then there was nothing to be done about it.  So I left because he was unable to hold up his end of the marriage.

Had we known about mental health, I would have gone with him to seek help and we may have had an entirely different outcome. 

[basil67]

I want to touch further on the idea of 'stoic' being a trait which women find attractive.

My husband is stoic.  He's solid as a rock.   I love him dearly, but truth be told, I love him in spite of his stocism.  Yes, the stoic guy shows little in the way of emotions, but this also includes positive emotions.   In 30 years, I've never seen him depressed but nor have I seen him excited.  I have seen him get a bit mad or frustrated, but he settles down quickly.   If expressions of emotion were to be drawn using a graph, my guy would pretty much be a straight line.     

If I want to talk about something regarding my thoughts or feelings, his response is literally "I dunno.....I've never thought about it".  And because he can't relate, I don't get empathy I need from him.  Sure, he'll let me talk - but he's seriously got nothing to add.   So when I've got a problem, I turn not to him, but to my BFF.  Even my marital frustrations are bounced off my best friend first so that we can figure out if it's worth mentioning to him.   His stoicism creates distance.  

Going back to mental health, my view is gender neutral.  Because stoicism and lack of sharing creates emotional distance, I would say this is unhelpful to both the relationship and mental health.  So it's good to be able to share thoughts, feelings and problems with a partner.  But one needs to know when it's too much for a partner to deal with and seek professional help.  I think it's not the sharing of problems which can bring about a loss of attraction, but rather the over sharing.  And more so, when it's recognised that there is a problem, not seeking help is a major problem.

As in so many things, moderation is key. 

 

 

[Woggle]

Letting my emotional guard down with my wife was the single most frightening thing I ever did in my life and I have had guns and knives pulled on me. My first wife told me that she lost all attraction to me after I cried at my best friend's funeral and ever since I swore I would never show that side to a woman ever again. I am ashamed to say that at first I was very stoic and not vulnerable at all with my current wife but then I figured that I would never have a truly great marriage if I didn't 100% open my heart to her like she did to me and it has paid off hugely since we have a much, much better marriage.

A big part of finally getting over my trust issues with opening myself up to a woman and not having her somehow use it against me or turn on me because of it. It actually made both of us even more in love and hot for each other. If you can't open yourself up with your SO what kind of relationship do you really have?

[chillii]

l dunno , l've never gotten this type of attitudes and l've never found it in men around me or had that notion and wasn't raised in a family to have it. My dad was very much a mans man too but he never had any problems at all with feelings or emotion. Me l think any of those ideas died with the dinosaurs in my worlld.  Don't forget though there is a big just natural difference in men from women in those ways too among all the others .  Things usually effect us way differently l mean my gf cries about twice a wk nothing us just over anything she says l wish you'd cry more , ahh l don't even feel like crying let alone twice a wk but baby if l ever do l'll come straight to you haha.Point is she's just naturally a very emotional girl anyway and although l am myself too as a guy but nowhere near her, it just naturally comes out in different ways for me though it's just how l am . As far as mh , my gf and l talk about stuff like that a lot there's no shame in that we know how we both feel and and frames of mind we're both at in life with everything.

But of course as a family man or mother for that matter there is a line and you do need to be strong for your kids though but that's a different thing again. But not in a way of shaming emotion or problems , worst thing you could do.

Edited April 20, 2021 by chillii

[Trail Blazer]

17 hours ago, basil67 said:

No, this was not at all the case at all.  His "depression" manifested itself in his absolute exhaustion, hopelessness, not wanting to go out (wouldn't even come do grocery shopping with me or to a movie), negative beliefs about all kinds of things.   I knew exactly how he felt, but like I said, back then there was nothing to be done about it.  So I left because he was unable to hold up his end of the marriage.

Had we known about mental health, I would have gone with him to seek help and we may have had an entirely different outcome. 

I don't know how old you are, but at a guess if the 67 in your username is a reference to your birth year then that would put you in your early-mid fifties.  You're not that old. 

Assuming you were married in, say, the '90s, I find it hard to fathom that there was no mental health assistance available back then.  Especially since you've said you also suffer from depression, were you not yourself seeking help?

[Trail Blazer]

15 hours ago, basil67 said:

I want to touch further on the idea of 'stoic' being a trait which women find attractive.

My husband is stoic.  He's solid as a rock.   I love him dearly, but truth be told, I love him in spite of his stocism.  Yes, the stoic guy shows little in the way of emotions, but this also includes positive emotions.   In 30 years, I've never seen him depressed but nor have I seen him excited.  I have seen him get a bit mad or frustrated, but he settles down quickly.   If expressions of emotion were to be drawn using a graph, my guy would pretty much be a straight line.     

If I want to talk about something regarding my thoughts or feelings, his response is literally "I dunno.....I've never thought about it".  And because he can't relate, I don't get empathy I need from him.  Sure, he'll let me talk - but he's seriously got nothing to add.   So when I've got a problem, I turn not to him, but to my BFF.  Even my marital frustrations are bounced off my best friend first so that we can figure out if it's worth mentioning to him.   His stoicism creates distance.  

Going back to mental health, my view is gender neutral.  Because stoicism and lack of sharing creates emotional distance, I would say this is unhelpful to both the relationship and mental health.  So it's good to be able to share thoughts, feelings and problems with a partner.  But one needs to know when it's too much for a partner to deal with and seek professional help.  I think it's not the sharing of problems which can bring about a loss of attraction, but rather the over sharing.  And more so, when it's recognised that there is a problem, not seeking help is a major problem.

As in so many things, moderation is key. 

 

 

Sure, so the stoic guy doesn't show emotions positive or negative.  Yes, I understand, women want their men to show emotion, but only the positive emotions; sharing and opening up to the happy stuff.

Sure, no dude likes to hear his other half moan and whinge incessantly, either.  However, ask any dude and he'll say agree that most every woman is prone to a bit of an emotional outpouring every now and again.

I am of the view that there are varying degrees to which a woman would tolerate a man showing sad emotions before she'd be wondering when he'd stop being sad and just get on with fixing the problem has has.

You see, I've learnt from a 12 year marriage and multiple relationships that when a woman is sad and overwhelmed, she doesn't always want a guy to just fix her problems. 

No, women are smarter than a lot of guys give them credit for.  What I've learnt is that women just want to be listened to.  They want to feel like they're understood.  And no man can empathize unless he himself can demonstrate considerable abilities to not react, but just listen.

It took me a long time to realize that I didn't have to react in a way which conveyed that I felt an unwavering obligation to fix whatever issue my now ex-wife had whenever she was upset about something and was having a little cry to me about.

It's in a man's nature to want to fix things.  If there's a problem our logical brains click into gear and we try to fix.  However, I realized there's a time and a place to fix, and that is never before being present in the moment to first listen and then comfort.

What seems rather unnatural is if a man were to be overcome by emotions in the same manner that a woman would.  Someone spoke to me mean at work?  Hmmm, water off a duck's back. 

Yet, many times I've consoled a partner who's left work early and has been sobbing all afternoon at home because "Wendy humiliated me in front of the all the directors at the board meeting today and it made me feel awful."

Now, by rights, why can't a man be just as emotional and sob all afternoon?  Perhaps some do?  And definitely not all women would turn on the waterworks when they're spoken to in a patronizing way in front of their work colleagues.

What I will say, though, is that I'd be very surprised if your average woman wouldn't be somewhat off-put by a man who routinely reacted to interpersonal challenges in a stereotypical feminine way.  Whilst this can be frustrating for a guy to deal with, it certainly isn't attraction-sapping like it would be for many females.

So, why is it that men don't generally react like the above example nearly as much as women?  Is it because it's not in men's nature to, or is it societal pressures perpetuated by a toxic masculinity?

The reason I'm asking this is to try and unpack what it really is to be "a man" and how that is defined by both sexes.  It's hard for guys to know if and when they can be vulnerable around their women, and to what extent before she, herself, stops listening and starts wondering when that malr urge to "fix" will override his emotions and he gets back to sorting out his problems in a logical manner.

Just to be clear, I've never advocated that absolute stoicism which blunts positive emotion is a good thing at all.  I've certainly never suggested that attraction to male strength is somehow related being an emotionless robot.

No, what I've suggested is that, in my opinion, if women are attracted to the ability to manage and deal with highly stressful situations effectively whilst remaining calm and measured, then it puts a lot of perceived pressure on men to be able to remain strong always, because we know it is something that's not just admired, but women find attractive or sexy.

I never wanted this to be about me, but what I will add for context is that somehow I don't think that the strength that my girlfriend has said I've displayed through some very challenging periods, which she found attractive, would have been overall as appealing if I, on the other hand, weren't able to pause that "fix it" attitude for her, when listening to her problems.

So, for mine, I feel like I have the balance perfectly down pat.  And no, I do not feel any perceived pressure to try and maintain anything because I'm simply acting naturally around my girlfriend.  Our relationship is easy which makes it great.

I guess my motivation for this thread was to explore whether guys feel like once they know that their lady is attracted to strength - if they feel that strength shows leadership and leadership is attractive, then would the advent of a mental health challenge which precluded a guy from functioning effectively enough to be strong and show leadership results in his spouse losing attraction?

This, I feel, is a genuine problem men face.

[SumGuy]

3 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

....

I guess my motivation for this thread was to explore whether guys feel like once they know that their lady is attracted to strength - if they feel that strength shows leadership and leadership is attractive, then would the advent of a mental health challenge which precluded a guy from functioning effectively enough to be strong and show leadership results in his spouse losing attraction?

In my experience it really depends on how they view strength.  Do they view it as never in doubt, or that the stronger is a man who can doubt, face it, not hide it,  discuss it, but not let him stop from acting?  Also how do they view leadership?  Is it an authoritarian view where people do what he says just because (maybe with a bit of or else), or a view where a leader is an exemplar and brings out the best in people.

Also, I guess it is how perfect he needs to be and how enlightened she is.   Just like we don't kick someone out of the cave if they are gored by a boar, we nurture them and take care of them until they heal. 

You know the potential risk better than us, and also if you have other resources, like male friends to lean on.  It certainly sucks to think ones GF may not be there for you (if someone loses respect for you that is not there for you in my book), and if your issue is rare perhaps you can get help from your friends so to keep things with your GF good.

My personal approach is no longer give a flying F if she loses attraction for me over it.  I don't need that, and women who want me to be that way are a dime a dozen.  Granted, I've been through a lot in life so losing a GF over something like this is not going to crush me, and those who would kick me while I'm down...glad to put them behind me, get up again and thrive.

Also...it's a test in a way, is she attracted to your success or you?  You are more than your strength and leadership, in fact your strength and leadership arise from you: the good, the bad, the ugly and the sad.  Not every one is savvy enough to realize that, or they don't care and you are only as good as your last mistake.  In general I consider those latter people parasites, you don't notice them when you are healthy though.

Quote

This, I feel, is a genuine problem men face.

Agreed 100% it is.

[basil67]

6 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I don't know how old you are, but at a guess if the 67 in your username is a reference to your birth year then that would put you in your early-mid fifties.  You're not that old. 

Assuming you were married in, say, the '90s, I find it hard to fathom that there was no mental health assistance available back then.  Especially since you've said you also suffer from depression, were you not yourself seeking help?

Yes, I am mid-50's.   First marriage was very young, I was 20 and it and lasted four years.

Back then my own depression was significant but undiagnosed.  It was situational, in response to my husband's decline and resulting changes in the marriage.  I had chronic illnesses as a side effect of my mental state.  I recall sobbing, not able to see a way forward in the rooms of more than one counsellor and doctor.  Not a single one of them raised that I might be depressed or even enquired about my mental health.   And if this is how they were reacting to a person who falls to pieces in their clinic, how were we to know that depression was my then husband's issue?   

My mental health stabilised after leaving that marriage

I then became depressed again after the birth of my son and then dealing with his special needs. In around 2001, I finally got a diagnosis and help.   At this point, I was able to look back and recognise the mental health issues we had around 1990.   

Mental health really was a different space back 30 odd years ago.  

[basil67]

6 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I am of the view that there are varying degrees to which a woman would tolerate a man showing sad emotions before she'd be wondering when he'd stop being sad and just get on with fixing the problem has has.

I take a more gender neutral approach.  I am of the view that there are varying degrees to which a person would tolerate their partner showing sad emotions/being overwhelmed by emotions before we expect them to go fix the problem.   If I was partnered with a man or a woman, I'd listen for a bit but eventually draw the line where I expect them to seek professional help.  

Looking then at mental health (more significant than someone who is very emotional) I wouldn't lose attraction for a partner if mental health issues became apparent.  But I would expect them to take it in hand and do what they can to address it.  

6 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I guess my motivation for this thread was to explore whether guys feel like once they know that their lady is attracted to strength - if they feel that strength shows leadership and leadership is attractive, then would the advent of a mental health challenge which precluded a guy from functioning effectively enough to be strong and show leadership results in his spouse losing attraction?

I think you're making assumptions about what a woman is attracted to.  Sure, your girlfriend is attracted to it, but when asked to label all the things I love about my husband, his strength is really not one of the things I think of.   Yes, I do like that he knows what he wants and can plan and stuff, but I love more that he's egalitarian in approach.  That he knows I will be equally strong.   

I was going to write about leadership, but stopped myself because I'm actually not sure what you mean.  Can you define the type of leadership you're talking about?

[poppyfields]

8 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I guess my motivation for this thread was to explore whether guys feel like once they know that their lady is attracted to strength - if they feel that strength shows leadership and leadership is attractive, then would the advent of a mental health challenge which precluded a guy from functioning effectively enough to be strong and show leadership results in his spouse losing attraction?

This, I feel, is a genuine problem men face.

I can only speak for myself but when I love a man, am in love with a man, I love all of him, every facet of his being, his entire essence.  Which includes his strength, his purpose, his intelligence, his ideas AND his weaknesses and his vulnerabilities.

I honestly cannot relate to a woman no longer feeling attracted to her man when he's sad or feels vulnerable and expresses that to her.

To me, that's not love, it's - well I don't even know what it is, but to me that's not love.

[basil67]

So I researched the barriers to men seeking mental health care. 

Page 2 of the link below has the following major barriers:

Fear or actual experience of stigma. The greatest stigma appears to come from within. It was common for men to speak supportively of friends, family or colleagues in the face of mental health issues, but then not afford themselves the same level of consideration or empathy in the same circumstances. Admitting mental health issues is confronting personally and, for some, amounts to admitting to not being the full man they like to see themselves as being or want to be.

Need for control. There is a strong need among many men to control their world. This stems from their role as provider and family head – even among those who share the earning and child rearing responsibilities with their partner.

Lack of tools to express themselves or instigate conversations on mental health. Across the sample we found men who admit to feeling ill-equipped to deal with the topic of mental health. Some spoke of not knowing how to even start a conversation with a friend or family member. Expressing in-depth emotions was one part of this, but it was also the case that the nature of their relationships and their lack of propensity to ever discuss personal matters meant that having such a conversation would materially change the nature of their relationship forever. An absence of social support and community connections. As we found from those people we spoke with who had sought help, family members and friends are usually the key motivators or instigators to help seeking. The absence of such support (for example in cases where relationships are fractured, in broken families, or for the socially isolated) can thus serve as a barrier to comfort with and readiness for help seeking.

Another issue that emerged – either for oneself or in helping a friend – is the point of action. Men across the sample were inclined to delay action of any kind until crisis point. This was often driven by one or all of the above four points. With the best of intentions BEYONDBLUE – MEN’S HELP SEEKING BEHAVIOUR PAGE: 3 4195 REPORT 120914 however, without understanding the signs of depression and anxiety, men are unlikely to know when crisis point is reached

This following bit may be of interest:  On page 5, there is a table listing barriers.   There are 24 points, one of which mentions the female role.  It cites her "Own limited understanding, experience, misconceptions associated with depression / anxiety".   So, there's definitely that.

I'm really not seeing the research to support the idea  [Do] guys feel like once they know that their lady is attracted to strength - if they feel that strength shows leadership and leadership is attractive, then would the advent of a mental health challenge which precluded a guy from functioning effectively enough to be strong and show leadership results in his spouse losing attraction? plays a significant role in men not seeking help.  Can it happen? Sure.  Is it statistically significant?  Apparently not.  

source:https://www.beyondblue.org.au/docs/default-source/research-project-files/bw0185.pdf?sfvrsn=a109b8e9_2   Beyond Blue is a respected Australian mental health support organisation.  They provide support programs to address issues related to depression, suicide, anxiety disorders and other related mental illnesses.

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by basil67

[Trail Blazer]

28 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I'm really not seeing the research to support the idea  [Do] guys feel like once they know that their lady is attracted to strength - if they feel that strength shows leadership and leadership is attractive, then would the advent of a mental health challenge which precluded a guy from functioning effectively enough to be strong and show leadership results in his spouse losing attraction? plays a significant role in men not seeking help.  Can it happen? Sure.  Is it statistically significant?  Apparently not.  

At a guess I would say that it loosely falls under the banner of "need for control." 

Men feel that it's universally attractive to be a good provider (but that doesn't preclude a guy who doesn't provide a lot by way of resources to be attractive in other ways), and that to display weakness (if mental health is perceived that way) would be to potentially undermine the respect afforded to being the provider/head of the household.

Perhaps you feel that it's a long bow to draw, but I certainly know first hand that being able to provide is a massive ego boost for most men, so acknowledging any weaknesses which may compromise the respect garnered from being a good provider may ipso facto be seen as something which could lose them attraction.

Inability to provide = loss of respect.  Loss of respect = dimished attraction.  At the risk of coming across like I am projecting, I am of the belief that most men like to create and maintain their own narrative and control the outcomes to varying degrees.  Fearing their partner is probably too nuanced to define, but it would definitely fall under the umbrella term of need for control.

[Trail Blazer]

3 hours ago, poppyfields said:

I can only speak for myself but when I love a man, am in love with a man, I love all of him, every facet of his being, his entire essence.  Which includes his strength, his purpose, his intelligence, his ideas AND his weaknesses and his vulnerabilities.

I honestly cannot relate to a woman no longer feeling attracted to her man when he's sad or feels vulnerable and expresses that to her.

To me, that's not love, it's - well I don't even know what it is, but to me that's not love.

It's refreshing to hear that, and I'm sure you say this with complete sincerity.  However, at the same time, my experience in life has taught me that love is transient for both sexes and people seemingly fall in and out of love willy-nilly.

What someone loved about someone else when they first met could end up being the most annoying thing to that person one, two, five or even 10 years later.

As someone who's never been the dumper, but rather the dumpee, I don't feel like a change a whole lot and behave consistently in a relationship, but I've seemingly found that my traits have been the ones which have annoyed the others more than the other way around.

In the case of my first wife, yes, it was as close to a mutual break-up as you could get, but she was still the first to initiate it.  I'd be lying if I said that we both got on each other's nerves in the end, but I still maintain that she was the one who changed a lot more than I did, and thus, her expectations of life and the people around her changed.

I grew tired of the person she had turned into while she grew tired of the person I had remained being.  

[Trail Blazer]

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

I take a more gender neutral approach.  I am of the view that there are varying degrees to which a person would tolerate their partner showing sad emotions/being overwhelmed by emotions before we expect them to go fix the problem.   If I was partnered with a man or a woman, I'd listen for a bit but eventually draw the line where I expect them to seek professional help.  

Looking then at mental health (more significant than someone who is very emotional) I wouldn't lose attraction for a partner if mental health issues became apparent.  But I would expect them to take it in hand and do what they can to address it.  

I think you're making assumptions about what a woman is attracted to.  Sure, your girlfriend is attracted to it, but when asked to label all the things I love about my husband, his strength is really not one of the things I think of.   Yes, I do like that he knows what he wants and can plan and stuff, but I love more that he's egalitarian in approach.  That he knows I will be equally strong.   

I was going to write about leadership, but stopped myself because I'm actually not sure what you mean.  Can you define the type of leadership you're talking about?

Broadly speaking, I believe that good leadership is when someone knows when to afford others the autonomy to seek life on their own terms and when they need to be by that person's side.

I think when it comes to relationships, someone who can perceive when it's time to lead and when it's time to follow is a good leader.  Good leadership doesn't always require physically leading.

Understanding the other person's strengths and allowing them to take charge in areas of life/relationship where they're more suited to is good leadership.  Someone who's in control but isn't controlling.

[Trail Blazer]

8 hours ago, SumGuy said:

In my experience it really depends on how they view strength.  Do they view it as never in doubt, or that the stronger is a man who can doubt, face it, not hide it,  discuss it, but not let him stop from acting?  Also how do they view leadership?  Is it an authoritarian view where people do what he says just because (maybe with a bit of or else), or a view where a leader is an exemplar and brings out the best in people.

Also, I guess it is how perfect he needs to be and how enlightened she is.   Just like we don't kick someone out of the cave if they are gored by a boar, we nurture them and take care of them until they heal. 

You know the potential risk better than us, and also if you have other resources, like male friends to lean on.  It certainly sucks to think ones GF may not be there for you (if someone loses respect for you that is not there for you in my book), and if your issue is rare perhaps you can get help from your friends so to keep things with your GF good.

My personal approach is no longer give a flying F if she loses attraction for me over it.  I don't need that, and women who want me to be that way are a dime a dozen.  Granted, I've been through a lot in life so losing a GF over something like this is not going to crush me, and those who would kick me while I'm down...glad to put them behind me, get up again and thrive.

Also...it's a test in a way, is she attracted to your success or you?  You are more than your strength and leadership, in fact your strength and leadership arise from you: the good, the bad, the ugly and the sad.  Not every one is savvy enough to realize that, or they don't care and you are only as good as your last mistake.  In general I consider those latter people parasites, you don't notice them when you are healthy though.

Agreed 100% it is.

In the case of my girlfriend, I definitely feel it's the latter.  If I hid all of my worries and concerns always, adopted a perpetual "business as usual" approach to life and never spoke a word about it, we wouldn't have had the discussion to start with.

I was bouncing ideas off my girlfriend about how to manage various challenging situations in my work life, and despite my girlfriend's acknowledgement that the situation was tough, she noted my strength and ability reason and enact meaningful change to alleviate the situation.

When I asked my girlfriend if there was really any other way, she said, "Oh, of course there is.  You could get absorbed in your own issues and then take out your problems on others instead of trying to help yourself.  That's what my ex did."  

My girlfriend noted how my approach was different and that despite my challenges, I got on with remedying them.  To be honest I was surprised she even mentioned it.  I mean, I don't know how to go about it in any other way.  She quipped by saying how it's one of the reasons why she loves me, because I'm driven, determined and mentally strong.

But then, it did make me think, what if I simply couldn't function in a way that enabled me to fix these problems?  What if I was so trapped in and consumed by, my mental health problems that it precluded me from deriving the strength to push through adversity?

I know that my girlfriend is probably scarred a little for spending years in a relationship trying to help someone with their mental health struggles.  However, for mine, to be labelled mentally strong simply because I'm not faced with a mental health barrier, is a curious one.

Does mental health make someone weak?  Or does the advent of mental health preclude someone from being able to be as strong as they possobly could, and thus, not being able to control the variables in life which can result in someone's emotions spilling over and negatively impacting their partner?

As for leadership, I've described that in the post above.

[Taramere]

21 hours ago, chillii said:

l dunno , l've never gotten this type of attitudes and l've never found it in men around me or had that notion and wasn't raised in a family to have it. My dad was very much a mans man too but he never had any problems at all with feelings or emotion.

My dad was exactly the same, but he was considered a larger than life character by people he worked and socialised with.  Although he was British, his temperament was like the Mediterranean stereotype.   Occasionally he would try out the sulky, passive aggressive approach for size - but it wasn't something he could sustain.  As soon as you asked him what the problem was he would erupt into a volatile, emotional explanation.  He would cry when friends, family members and pets died.  I remember him coming home from his surgery in the 1970s ranting about a colleague who had laughed because my dad was crying at work over the family cat having died.  He was always very calm and professional within the surgery - but outside it...watch out!

So I grew up thinking tears as well as temper outbursts were very normal - and it was a shock to me to discover that some of my colleagues were extremely uncomfortable with crying clients.  To me, if you're working in any profession that involves people disclosing stressful life circumstances to you, you need to be okay with crying clients.  Who wants that lawyer or doctor who freezes with horror when somebody is crying in front of them?  The last boss I had was an absolute unmentionable regarding her views about people who expressed emotions to the point where counselling I've had has uncovered just how detrimental an effect she had on me (I was there fore years).  

She was particularly contemptuous of any men who displayed emotion or vulnerability.  .  Sometimes she'd refer a male client to me with a lecture about how "he's a successful businessman, so don't give him any of your touchy feely social work approach.  Be crisp, brisk and professional."  So I'd try that approach, but these men would end up crying to me about their failed marriages anyway...and so I'd revert to the empathic approach that my boss my well have despised, but which was the right response for the occasion.  The bottom line is that people would tend to see who she was straight away (ie extremely judgemental to the point where her self esteem rested entirely on doing almost everybody else down, labelling them "pathetic" "whiny" etc) and be very cautious about showing any emotion in front of her.

In a situation where people like that prevail and rule the roost, normal emotional responses to stressful life events are likely to be disparaged as dysfunctional while almost superhuman stoicism is deemed to be the right and proper way to be.  In the UK, public schools (by which I mean expensive, private boarding schools - I know public schools mean the very opposite in the US where they are what we call "comprehensives") used to drill that into pupils.  The whole "stiff upper lip British stoicism" thing was embodied in Rudyard Kipling's poem "If".  I've always loved that poem because there are times it has really spoken to me, but it must be said that it's spoken to me in circumstances that I'd have been far better just removing myself from.  

Sometimes you can't, though.  Sometimes you're stuck in a situation (maybe a job that you're relying on to put food on the table) where it becomes about survival.  Stoicism can help you to survive and avoid being constantly targeted as the weakest by predatory types.  So it can be an asset.  We all do sometimes need that filter which prevents us from showing our vulnerabilities around people who would happily do us harm...and I think there's something to be said for men (and women) who are selective about who they disclose their vulnerabilities in front of.  But the key word is "selectivity".  It doesn't mean men (or people generally) should avoid showing vulnerability ever, to anybody.  However a partner or friend who lets you know that they can't handle you showing any vulnerability is probably letting you know (without even knowing it themselves) that they're only there for the good times, and not in it for the long haul.

Edited April 21, 2021 by Taramere

[Taramere]

12 hours ago, basil67 said:

Yes, I am mid-50's.   First marriage was very young, I was 20 and it and lasted four years.

Back then my own depression was significant but undiagnosed.  It was situational, in response to my husband's decline and resulting changes in the marriage.  I had chronic illnesses as a side effect of my mental state.  I recall sobbing, not able to see a way forward in the rooms of more than one counsellor and doctor.  Not a single one of them raised that I might be depressed or even enquired about my mental health.   And if this is how they were reacting to a person who falls to pieces in their clinic, how were we to know that depression was my then husband's issue?   

My mental health stabilised after leaving that marriage

I then became depressed again after the birth of my son and then dealing with his special needs. In around 2001, I finally got a diagnosis and help.   At this point, I was able to look back and recognise the mental health issues we had around 1990.   

Mental health really was a different space back 30 odd years ago.  

I agree.  Certainly in the UK it was far more unusual back then for people to seek assistance with their mental health and you would tend to associate mental health treatment with psychiatric conditions that might often involve dangerous or life threatening behaviours.  I got into a relationship, in the late '90s, with a guy who had a history involving psychiatric treatment.  The moment I discovered this, it didn't put me off him - but what it did do was lead to this very unhealthy scenario where I felt personally responsible for his mental health.  If he continued to suffer from depression while he was in a relationship with me, then (my thinking was) I was a failure as a girlfriend.  You can see the potential for serious co-dependency there.  I went into a terrible spiral when that relationship eventually ended (with various difficulties involved - not least him cheating on me with a woman who had also received psychiatric care).  

At the time, and for some years afterwards, I held him responsible for that downward spiral...but I think the reality is that stressful life events can result in something dark attacking us in our weakest places and we don't really start to heal until we take ownership over those weaker parts of ourselves.  However, being careful who we associate with during that healing is vital.  I had far too many people in my life who were of that "stoicism at all costs" mentality - who would be extremely judgemental of other people's weaknesses and even go on the attack.  Often those people are probably doing so because that's how they manage their own weaknesses.  I remember reading some therapy book that was based on the characters in Wind and the Willows.  I recognised myself as Toad of Toad Hall (getting into bad situations and forever on the receiving end of stern lectures as a consequence).  Badger was deemed, by the book, to be a judgemental character who wasn't susceptible to depression because he tended to manage his negativity by criticising other people, lecturing them etc.  

People like that tend to be widely regarded and often esteemed as being strong.  Which they are, to a degree, but their strength is of a type that can have a very detrimental impact on others as it depends on them preserving their image as the rock without whom everybody and everything would crumble.  A self image which contains a bleak view of other people and their ability to manage.  In that exciting, often very love and happiness filled but ultimately very dysfunctional relationship I mentioned, I dabbled with the feeling of being that "rock without whom the other person would crumble" - and that wasn't good for either of us.  Ideally we lift others up and help them reach their potential...as opposed to seeing them as poor, broken creatures that we can feel better about ourselves for rescuing.  

If we're not capable of doing that because we can't recognise their potential, then it's best for all if we respectfully separate ourselves from them...and if we don't, then they should probably separate themselves from us. I think back in the '90s it was pretty much the norm to describe people who had been through psychiatric care or been treated with anti-depressants as "broken" or "damaged" - and for you, as a young woman married to a man who struggled with his mental health, there would have been a great deal on your shoulders that a lot of people can't necessarily imagine the impact of.

Edited April 21, 2021 by Taramere

[spiderowl]

I think it depends on the woman.  Some women will only be attracted to alpha types and others will be attracted to different types.

I'm an empathic type of person so I have an understanding of sensitivity and different ways of being.  I think the one thing that would put me off a guy is if I had to care for him all of the time and he did not care for me.  With emotional illness, we would support and care for each other, but if it is one-sided and I have to bear all the household burdens, not just for a period while he is ill, then it would be too much.

I have depression myself and other health problems. I also know what it is like to live with someone who is depressed or has other health problems.  In any relationship, if the attempts at support are not mutual, the relationship is at risk.  Obviously, needs for support would ebb and flow and it's not a case of expecting immediate reciprocation.  If he is ill and needs more support, I would be there.  When he is better and I have flu, I would hope he would be there (outside the room) doing his best too.

I do not think it is particularly down to whether it is a mental health problem or a physical problem, if you start a relationship with someone and it becomes one person doing all the caring while the needs of the other are ignored, then the imbalance will torpedo the relationship.  Obviously, this does not apply to serious, life-threatening illnesses where most people expect to put their needs aside to care for their partner for as long as they feel able.

Edited April 21, 2021 by spiderowl

[SumGuy]

On 4/21/2021 at 12:02 AM, Trail Blazer said:

....

But then, it did make me think, what if I simply couldn't function in a way that enabled me to fix these problems?  What if I was so trapped in and consumed by, my mental health problems that it precluded me from deriving the strength to push through adversity?

I know that my girlfriend is probably scarred a little for spending years in a relationship trying to help someone with their mental health struggles.  However, for mine, to be labelled mentally strong simply because I'm not faced with a mental health barrier, is a curious one.

Does mental health make someone weak?  Or does the advent of mental health preclude someone from being able to be as strong as they possobly could, and thus, not being able to control the variables in life which can result in someone's emotions spilling over and negatively impacting their partner?

....

Good questions.  As she has had experiences in the past with a man who struggled can see where she may not want to repeat that.  Not sure how much of a repeat that would be though, did he try to fix himself, did he take responsibility, etc.

Personally, if mental health problems are getting in your way, recognizing them and taking concrete actions to correct them I think is still a form of strength.  Like if you were severely injured and had to go to physical therapy.  Awareness of and determination to fix (via concrete action) mental health issues to me is strength.

In any event, if you are having struggles best not to ignore it even if you don't tell her about it.

[Trail Blazer]

On 4/27/2021 at 1:22 AM, SumGuy said:

Good questions.  As she has had experiences in the past with a man who struggled can see where she may not want to repeat that.  Not sure how much of a repeat that would be though, did he try to fix himself, did he take responsibility, etc.

Personally, if mental health problems are getting in your way, recognizing them and taking concrete actions to correct them I think is still a form of strength.  Like if you were severely injured and had to go to physical therapy.  Awareness of and determination to fix (via concrete action) mental health issues to me is strength.

In any event, if you are having struggles best not to ignore it even if you don't tell her about it.

I'm not too sure to be honest.  According to her she tried to help him but he was a generally negative person.  From the sounds of things, he didn't take too much responsibility and was in denial that he had a problem.

I think my girlfriend is easily brought down if she's surrounded by negativity.  She dated some interesting people in her younger years; unconventional types.  She's always been in the arts and theater scene, so dated musicians, stage actors etc.

I don't have a creative bone in my body.  I can't sing to save my life and I'm a very unconvincing actor.  My strengths are in other areas and whilst my girlfriend and I are very different, we seem to work very well together and get the best out of each other.

I totally agree that having the ability to identify and action remedies to your mental health issues is a form of strength. 

Perhaps it becomes difficult to discern the seperate issues that those with both mental health concerns coupled with a mental weakness.  People may conflate them when they're actually separate.

 

[SumGuy]

1 hour ago, Trail Blazer said:

....

Perhaps it becomes difficult to discern the seperate issues that those with both mental health concerns coupled with a mental weakness.  People may conflate them when they're actually separate.

Agreed that people do conflate them and they are separate.  There is a simple word for the conflating, pre-judging or prejudice. 

Sounds like you may need to initially try to find support with friends instead of your girlfriend if you feel she would view this as too much negativity.

[poppyfields]

Found this one definition of stoic, think it was on Wiki.

>>The word "stoic" commonly refers to someone who is indifferent to pain, pleasure, grief, or joy.<<

IOW, a person who lacks emotion.  Positive or negative.  Indifferent.

Why or how wouid anyone be drawn to a person like this?  Let alone date, have a "relationship" or worse married. 

It would be akin to dating a robot!  Or a blow up doll.

Can you imagine having sexual relations with such person?  

No thank you.

 

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by poppyfields

[poppyfields]

11 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Found this one definition of stoic, think it was on Wiki.

>>The word "stoic" commonly refers to someone who is indifferent to pain, pleasure, grief, or joy.<<

IOW, a person who lacks emotion.  Positive or negative.  Indifferent.

Why or how wouid anyone be drawn to a person like this?  Let alone date, have a "relationship" or worse married. 

It would be akin to dating a robot!  Or a blow up doll.

Can you imagine having sexual relations with such person?  

No thank you.

To add, I've been doing a lot of reading lately about interpersonal relationships, masculine/feminine polarity and the like. 

What I read was there are some men who will employ this "stoic" facade as a way to attract women, or rather a certain type of women.

Because it gets the insecure women chasing their attention and seeking validation.

It does work to men's advantage in many ways and will attract certain women. 

Question is, are these the women a solid, secure man wishes to attract?  Other than a ONS? 

An insecure woman dancing around him seeking his approval, attention and validation?  Because he sits there behaving like a robot with zero emotions?

I'd rather be dead.