Women: If male mental strength is attractive then is poor mental health unattractive?

[Trail Blazer]

21 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Agreed that people do conflate them and they are separate.  There is a simple word for the conflating, pre-judging or prejudice. 

Sounds like you may need to initially try to find support with friends instead of your girlfriend if you feel she would view this as too much negativity.

I'm not really worried about telling her to be honest.  I kind of already did, which resulted in the discussion we had where she told me that one of the things she loves about me is my mental strength.

I think my way of managing my stress wouldn't bring her down.  She has no aversion to hearing my problems, as we both listen to each other's challenges, mainly in our professional lives. 

We both have stressful jobs, so it's good, in fact normal, for couples to listen and support one another with any challenges they're facing.  

The whole point of this thread was to explore how mental health can potentially hinder one's ability to function normally in their day-to-day lives, with the focus of that being specifically on men - expanding upon that, women's propensity to be attracted to strong males.

I find mental health perplexing.  I know so many people with mental health struggles (my girlfriend is actually one of them) and from what I do know, I just couldn't envision myself being able to manage all of the things I do in life with a mental health barrier.

My logic is as such; mental health struggles like depression and anxiety hinder one's ability to function normally.  Yes, they can be managed, but not complete eliminated.  So, if everything I am is as a result of being the person I am with no mental health concerns, what sort of a limited version of myself would I be if I were to have a mental health concern.

Following on from that, how much would I need to be limited before I am no longer defined as the person of strength which I've defined as being because my mental health has been a barrier to this?

I do not know if I am looking at things too simplistically.  I don't know if I am conflating the issues myself.  Was my girlfriend's ex mentally weak anyway, and his mental health issues weren't a factor in her assessment of him not being mentally strong?  Is my mental strength something I possess that wouldn't be changed if I had mental health concerns?

That's the million dollar question....

I absolutely feel I am not alone in at least feeling like men have to be a little bit careful around women with regards to showing mental frailty.  The nuances are not easy to discern, so, most lay men would simply assume it's safer to not show weakness around women than to work out what women (a partner) would be supportive of and what might cause her to lose attraction.

[poppyfields]

2 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I'm not really worried about telling her to be honest.  I kind of already did, which resulted in the discussion we had where she told me that one of the things she loves about me is my mental strength.

I think my way of managing my stress wouldn't bring her down.  She has no aversion to hearing my problems, as we both listen to each other's challenges, mainly in our professional lives. 

We both have stressful jobs, so it's good, in fact normal, for couples to listen and support one another with any challenges they're facing.  

The whole point of this thread was to explore how mental health can potentially hinder one's ability to function normally in their day-to-day lives, with the focus of that being specifically on men - expanding upon that, women's propensity to be attracted to strong males.

I find mental health perplexing.  I know so many people with mental health struggles (my girlfriend is actually one of them) and from what I do know, I just couldn't envision myself being able to manage all of the things I do in life with a mental health barrier.

My logic is as such; mental health struggles like depression and anxiety hinder one's ability to function normally.  Yes, they can be managed, but not complete eliminated.  So, if everything I am is as a result of being the person I am with no mental health concerns, what sort of a limited version of myself would I be if I were to have a mental health concern.

Following on from that, how much would I need to be limited before I am no longer defined as the person of strength which I've defined as being because my mental health has been a barrier to this?

I do not know if I am looking at things too simplistically.  I don't know if I am conflating the issues myself.  Was my girlfriend's ex mentally weak anyway, and his mental health issues weren't a factor in her assessment of him not being mentally strong?  Is my mental strength something I possess that wouldn't be changed if I had mental health concerns?

That's the million dollar question....

I absolutely feel I am not alone in at least feeling like men have to be a little bit careful around women with regards to showing mental frailty.  The nuances are not easy to discern, so, most lay men would simply assume it's safer to not show weakness around women than to work out what women (a partner) would be supportive of and what might cause her to lose attraction.

TB, this was a good post.  

With my previous ex (not my recent ex who in retrospect I was never truly in love with anyway), but my previous ex, he was my ROCK, I had him on such a pedestal, I literally saw him as my god so to speak, I admired him and loved everything about him, good, bad, positive, negative.  In retrospect, it was very unhealthy for me.  And him!

As it turned out, he felt extremely pressured to live up to my high expectations (him being on that pedestal and all).  At one point, he lost his business and became depressed but was fearful of exposing that, fearful that I would view him as weak and take him down from the pedestal (which he actually loved, what man wouldn't!)?

I only found this out later during our break up.

Anyway, it's a long story and this is your thread, but when I read that one of the things your girlfriend loves about you is your mental strength, maybe that would have been a good time to ask her would she still love you if you didn't always exhibit such strength.

I am 100% over my previous ex, but it broke my heart to realize he was actually afraid to expose his weak side to me after he lost his business, his vulnerability and how scared he was...

My next relationship should I ever have one (at this point not sure if I am even cut out for that anymore, not in the traditional sense anyway) but if I do, I will be sure to let him know in my own way that I love ALL of him, including those times when he doesn't feel so strong and needs to lean on me for comfort and my strength.  Allow me to be his rock during those times.

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by poppyfields

[Trail Blazer]

21 hours ago, poppyfields said:

TB, this was a good post.  

With my previous ex (not my recent ex who in retrospect I was never truly in love with anyway), but my previous ex, he was my ROCK, I had him on such a pedestal, I literally saw him as my god so to speak, I admired him and loved everything about him, good, bad, positive, negative.  In retrospect, it was very unhealthy for me.  And him!

As it turned out, he felt extremely pressured to live up to my high expectations (him being on that pedestal and all).  At one point, he lost his business and became depressed but was fearful of exposing that, fearful that I would view him as weak and take him down from the pedestal (which he actually loved, what man wouldn't!)?

I only found this out later during our break up.

Anyway, it's a long story and this is your thread, but when I read that one of the things your girlfriend loves about you is your mental strength, maybe that would have been a good time to ask her would she still love you if you didn't always exhibit such strength.

I am 100% over my previous ex, but it broke my heart to realize he was actually afraid to expose his weak side to me after he lost his business, his vulnerability and how scared he was...

My next relationship should I ever have one (at this point not sure if I am even cut out for that anymore, not in the traditional sense anyway) but if I do, I will be sure to let him know in my own way that I love ALL of him, including those times when he doesn't feel so strong and needs to lean on me for comfort and my strength.  Allow me to be his rock during those times.

 

Well, I must admit that I do like the fact that she thinks I've got mental strength and is attracted to it.  Perhaps a small part of me would hate to burst this bubble, should anything change.

I will say though that I haven't been putting up a facade.  I've just been myself in this relationship.  Things are just so easy.  It certainly helps one's mental state when things are so good.

The more I read the more bouyed I am by the many responses from women on here.  I have every confidencd that my girlfriend would be supportive, too, should I ever find myself in need of such support.

[SumGuy]

On 4/29/2021 at 12:37 PM, Trail Blazer said:

...., so it's good, in fact normal, for couples to listen and support one another with any challenges they're facing.  

Agree 100%, otherwise are you really a couple.

Quote

I find mental health perplexing.  I know so many people with mental health struggles (my girlfriend is actually one of them) and from what I do know, I just couldn't envision myself being able to manage all of the things I do in life with a mental health barrier.

It takes extra strength to still get done what needs to be done.  I personally think those who have such barriers but still get it done are the truly strong ones.

Quote

My logic is as such; mental health struggles like depression and anxiety hinder one's ability to function normally.  Yes, they can be managed, but not complete eliminated.  So, if everything I am is as a result of being the person I am with no mental health concerns, what sort of a limited version of myself would I be if I were to have a mental health concern.

You can get through them, and especially if the trigger for the depression and anxiety is situational (even though it can last years) one can eliminate them.  Our emotional state impacting our get things done state, it's called being human.  

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I absolutely feel I am not alone in at least feeling like men have to be a little bit careful around women with regards to showing mental frailty. 

You are certainly not alone in my experience in having this concern, nor is it unreasonable to have such a concern.

Quote

The nuances are not easy to discern, so, most lay men would simply assume it's safer to not show weakness around women than to work out what women (a partner) would be supportive of and what might cause her to lose attraction.

This is where I disagree, at least in part, or maybe I have gotten just better at the nuances; in that later in life here seem to have no problem finding partners who are supportive, and actually correctly diagnosing those for which it is.  I think it is certainly doable, but the filters I employ may not get everyone the women they desire in other aspects.

[Cookiesandough]

I guess I’m weird, but I prefer men with poor mental health lol 

[Trail Blazer]

On 5/10/2021 at 11:04 PM, Cookiesandough said:

I guess I’m weird, but I prefer men with poor mental health lol 

What do you mean, exactly?  And why?

[elaine567]

There is a big  feeling expressed  around the forum that mental health issues are fine IF the person affected is proactive in finding help and is getting adequate treatment or is complying with said treatment. Fine also IF they are a mentally strong person and can quickly shrug it off.
Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

The problem with mental illness is that is can chip away a person's ability to cope or to seek help.
Mental illness  can erode the ability to fairly assess their own mental state. To them everything can be "normal", they may not fully appreciate why others are worried.
Their thought processes can be so out of kilter they. are not fully in control of their lives.
Logic and rationale, calmness and coolness under pressure, the ability to make good solid decisions may all disappear. to be replaced by anxiety and depression, lack of impulse control, paranoia, odd behaviours or even delusions and hallucinations... etc, etc.

Whether they are a "strong" or "weak" person may be immaterial. "Strong" people commit suicide every day.
"Weak" people can end up having very nice long mentally healthy lives... OR vice versa. 

Living with a person with mental; health issues can be very difficult.
"Love" may not conquer all.

[Trail Blazer]

On 5/16/2021 at 6:11 PM, elaine567 said:

There is a big  feeling expressed  around the forum that mental health issues are fine IF the person affected is proactive in finding help and is getting adequate treatment or is complying with said treatment. Fine also IF they are a mentally strong person and can quickly shrug it off.
Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

The problem with mental illness is that is can chip away a person's ability to cope or to seek help.
Mental illness  can erode the ability to fairly assess their own mental state. To them everything can be "normal", they may not fully appreciate why others are worried.
Their thought processes can be so out of kilter they. are not fully in control of their lives.
Logic and rationale, calmness and coolness under pressure, the ability to make good solid decisions may all disappear. to be replaced by anxiety and depression, lack of impulse control, paranoia, odd behaviours or even delusions and hallucinations... etc, etc.

Whether they are a "strong" or "weak" person may be immaterial. "Strong" people commit suicide every day.
"Weak" people can end up having very nice long mentally healthy lives... OR vice versa. 

Living with a person with mental; health issues can be very difficult.
"Love" may not conquer all.

Agreed totally.  However, can we say with any great certainty that mental strength and mental health are mutually exclusive concepts?

I maintain that it's difficult to label someone mentally strong in the context of someone being able to handle all of life stressors if theit mental health precludes them from being able to manage every-day life challenges.

It's heartening to hear that women do view them as distinctly seperate, but I do hold some level of skepticism that if a guy deemed mentally strong develops a mental health issue, that it won't undermine his mental strength if he can't keep his behavior in check.  Mental strength at that point really is moot.

Where mental strength is advantageous is when it's the difference between being able to pick oneself up and get their life back in order, or spiralling.  As you've pointed out, however, is that mental strength may be ineffectual if the mental health struggle is beyond the sufferer's ability to get through it.

In the case of my girlfriend, it sounded like her ex had some form of mental health concern which brought him down a lot.  She said that he didn't exactly have a hard life, but his depressive outlook on life clouded his ability to think critically and make sound decisions. 

From her perspective, his decisions were not sound because he was stressed dealing with situations he created himself by not effectively dealing with issues in his life in the first place.  It was a vicious cycle.  And, for her, his inability to persist and try to better himself appeared to be at opposites with being mentally tough and displaying resilience.

So, can we deduce that mental health can completely impede someone's ability to be mentally strong?  I think so.  However, I also think that it's easy to fall into a trap of thinking that someone is mentally weak when they're in fact suffering from a mental health condition.

Mental health is so nuanced that it really does seem impossible to unblur the lines between where mental health, mental strength and personality disorders form the basis of someone's behavior and outlook on life.  Andz that's before we even consider environmental factors that can also affect someone's ability to leverage whatever mental strength they have to cope with life.

 

[basil67]

6 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

So, can we deduce that mental health can completely impede someone's ability to be mentally strong?  I think so.  However, I also think that it's easy to fall into a trap of thinking that someone is mentally weak when they're in fact suffering from a mental health condition. 

When you say 'mentally strong', do you mean 'resilient'?   

I think it's also common to fall into the trap of feeling that having resilience can preclude one from ending up with a mental illness...or being mentally fragile.   PTSD is an obvious issue.  And there's those who were robust teens, but developed mental illness in their 20.   Just today I was listening to a podcast where a heart surgeon was talking about transplants.   She discussed the emotional issues which can happen post surgery and gave examples of how guys who'd been mentally strong could be depressed and in tears 6 weeks after the operation.  

Given that the mentally strong can develop a mental illness, I don't see the relevance of discussing mental strength with respect to mental illness.

[Taramere]

On 5/16/2021 at 9:41 AM, elaine567 said:

There is a big  feeling expressed  around the forum that mental health issues are fine IF the person affected is proactive in finding help and is getting adequate treatment or is complying with said treatment. Fine also IF they are a mentally strong person and can quickly shrug it off.
Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

There's far more awareness of mental health issues now than, which makes it easier for people to be open about having experienced them.  25 years ago, when a boyfriend told me that he'd had a suicide attempt in his teens and was on anti-depressants long term, I admit I was horrified.  I also felt that if he was still on anti-depressants while in  relationship with me then it meant that I was a failure as a girlfriend.  Thankfully my thinking has come a long way since then - no doubt strongly influenced by wider social developments.

I've had mental health issues and one serious incident of self harm.  I've discovered that I'm by no means alone in that in my wider circle of acquaintances.  Recently, I laid down a boundary  (a fair, justifiable one by, I think, any rational perspective) with a male friend whose reaction was explosive - and also involved throwing that self harm episode in my face.  He's somebody who veers between being very hyper with happiness and being in dark depressions where it can seem as though his sense of self is dependent upon being unreachable. Incurable.  I had another friend who died of an eating disorder who also derived much of her shaky identity from being incurable.  One difference between the two of them was that I can't imagine a situation where my friend who died would have said anything cruel or vindictive to another person. Occasionally she might have said something passive aggressive about knowing who her real friends were (ie if somebody had laid down a boundary she didn't like) but I never knew it to go further than that. 

With my male friend - completely different.  I should have seen it coming (though I'm not supposed to be using "should" statements).  I kind of did see it coming.  He was becoming more and more involved in my life, and I started to get an uncomfortable sense that perhaps he felt we were going to become a sort of family together, even though I've never  been attracted to him in that way.  His happiness was going up, up and up into this elation...and all the time I was getting more and more feelings of dread, because having known him for many years, I know these elated periods tend to precede a bad crash that usually involves him burning bridges with either a friend or a family member.  And I knew that under the circumstances, this time it was going to be my turn.

So it happened, the moment I laid down a boundary that needed to be laid down but that he reacted badly to.  I tried to talk him out of reacting in a volatile way, burning his bridges etc, ut to no avail.  He just regarded me staying calm and not reacting to the abusive outbursts as "condescending".  So eventually after a few hours of vile texts and messages (despite him saying he was blocking me/never wanted to hear from me again, he didn't block me and it seemed as though he wanted to keep up these vicious attacks indefinitely) I ended up blocking him and contacting one of the few friends he has left so that somebody at least would check up on him to see that he was okay.  But after the things he said, I would never want any more dealings with him.  I can deal with angry outbursts from people, particularly as I've been guilty of them myself at times, the odd bit of sarcasm, passive aggression or even slightly mean humour....but when it comes to that real vitriol of the "I hope you die" and rubbing salt in people's most painful areas variety, I see that as something that comes from an incurable darkness of the soul rather than being down to mental health problems.  I don't think he'll ever successfully address that darkness in himself, because I think that secretly he likes it too much.  Feels, in some strange way, special because of it.

I was reading recently that the model Chrissie Teigen has been in hot water over "I hope you die" tweets she made years ago to a teenager.   It's the same sort of thing.  There's being angry and having impulse control issues...and then there's something beyond that where there's a real sadistic viciousness somewhere inside a person that I don't accept is related to mental health problems so much as it's related to a general antipathy for other people.  Anger that's always turned outwards and maybe a degree of narcissism that obstructs the person from thinking "this is not who I want to be."  Knowing my former friend, there's probably some level of guilt about the things he said to me that will fester and transform into further anger about me.  Even more intense "it's her fault.  She's got a self harm episode behind her now, which just proves that she's the crazy one and I'm the sane one.  Women like that - they just drive men crazy" thinking.  The kind of thinking that, all too often, finds supporters in the darker corners of the internet.  

I think just about everybody, unless they're incredibly lucky, may experience a spell in their life where their mental health takes a steep downward trajectory.  Most people will pull themelves back from it sooner or later.  But I think the dark, troubled souls who have a deep antipathy for other human beings deep inside them are too compelled to blame other people for the way they feel inside to ever do the work that's needed to set themselves free from the deeply negative thinking patterns they imprison themselves with.  Unfortunately I think certain types of political activism encourage that very negative thinking.  I don't want to dwell overly long on that, because a) this isn't the political section, and b) I try to steer clear of politics these days.  However my friend had started to become increasingly involved in political activism - and it showed in his increasingly angry conversation.   I do think activism (especially the type that takes place on social media where massive diversion of views combined with anonymity can result in an incredibly toxic environment) often really enables the negative behaviours and thinking patterns that an environment concerned primarily with good health and wellbeing would discourage.  

Edited May 21, 2021 by Taramere