Can't believe I'm back.

[vla1120]

30 minutes ago, LaurenEliz said:

You have to understand I’m trying to do what’s best for my kids. This might not be ok with people on here and maybe it’s not best by me but it’s not about me. 

we have had a full and open discussion with one another in regards to multiple issues in our relationship and her. 
 

he says it’s my decision if he is to send her a closure message. And here is where I’m stuck. I feel if he doesn’t, it’s still leaving some sort of door open 

Take it from someone who stayed with her husband for 18 years after he cheated (when I was pregnant with his child), staying "for the children" is not always what's best. It depends on your true relationship with your husband and what example you are setting for your children. My three daughters witnessed years of a dysfunctional marriage because we wanted to stay together for them. Now, each of them have spent years (off and on with different boyfriends) in equally dysfunctional relationships. 

Kids are resilient. Kids KNOW when something is wrong. Your kids are going to look to the two of you as examples and you will teach them how to have relationships. Please take that into serious consideration when you decide what action you are going to take. Kids also thrive better when their parents are well-adjusted and happy. I wish I had taken all of this into consideration before staying in an unhappy marriage "for the children."

[LaurenEliz]

6 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

The reason he is making it your decision is because he doesn’t care what you decide. Either he is already through with her (or her with him), or he already knows they will continue communicating.

I can’t see how it’s best for your kids to have a father who isn’t committed to their mother. Plenty of people make a marriage work for the sake of the kids, but it’s unlikely to be successful if one party is constantly looking elsewhere. If he’s a great dad, can’t he still be a great dad if you split up?

What did the lawyer say that made you resolved to stay?

i told him it’s his decision to either get rid of her with or without a closure message.  I’m not controlling any part of that. 
 

Out of interest, you now seem to think he is already done with her, where as before you have been adamant that he wants her in his life, why the change of mind?

 

im obviously not going to go into details about private discussions but my lawyer said it would be an idea to invite him into the conversation. I think he has realised what is at stake and what he could lose. We had a very frank discussion about her and what happened between them. I also asked him about the ‘sync’ which we both know wasn’t true, he wasn’t doing that to ‘make sure she was gone’. At the end of the conversation I laid everything on the line to him and said if he thinks it’s acceptable to keep a tie to her whether it’s used or not then we are over and I showed him an email I had sent to my lawyer regarding potential proceedings.

I said he has a choice and I’m going to leave it up to him to decide what to do, which isn’t controlling of me at all. I’m not taking the phone from him and sending the message and I’m not deleting her from his phone. I’m giving him the choice  either 

 

a) deletes and blocks with no message 

or 

b) deletes and blocks with a message.

i haven’t told him my preference. But to me, option a is leaving a door open as there has been no closure and I’m asking if other people agree  

 

[LaurenEliz]

5 minutes ago, Stupidkupid said:

This made me wince a little. I don't understand why people think that saying miserable forever is best for their children. 

While my mom and dad were staying together for our sake, we were overhearing conversations we shouldn't, watching them fight, drink, be upset. We were feeling the anxiety and the stress. Its horrible and damaging and you don't give you children enough credit here. People think their children don't know or feel what's going on, that's simply not true. Teaching your children that accepting this treatment in relationships, showing them that they should not put their needs first... I'm not sure that is best for your children.

I always remember, if mom was relaxed and happy, I was. I have had attachment and anxiety issues all my life, not from my parents divorcing but from the absolute Sh*t show they made at their frequent attempts to remain in their marriage.

In my experience, the door is open whether he sends the message or not. Gently, his persistent and continued lying to you about her shows you this.

I think you'll be back here or somewhere else within a year or so but I do wish you luck. 

Hi lovely, I hope you are ok. Thanks, I understand what you’re saying but we need to give it a chance right now. If he chooses the option to not send her a message of closure, do you think that says anything? And thank you for your continued guidance and support

[vla1120]

Just now, LaurenEliz said:

a) deletes and blocks with no message 

or 

b) deletes and blocks with a message.

i haven’t told him my preference. But to me, option a is leaving a door open as there has been no closure and I’m asking if other people agree  

You might think you are able to "make" him stop seeing and communicating with this woman. You have no control over this. There are SO many ways he can continue his behavior without your knowledge (burner phones, different messaging apps, the list goes on and on.) You're going to be left always wondering....did he REALLY end it with her? He's proven himself an unreliable liar. Just be prepared for the next time you find out he hasn't changed, he's just covered his tracks a little better.

[LaurenEliz]

35 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I don’t think it makes any difference. 

If he wants to continue with the woman, whether he sends a message to her or not won’t matter. Where there is a will, there is a way. 

You are trying to take control here as some form of reassurance, but you have no control. He will do what he intends to do. 

Also something I should pro

 

37 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

The reason he is making it your decision is because he doesn’t care what you decide. Either he is already through with her (or her with him), or he already knows they will continue communicating.

I can’t see how it’s best for your kids to have a father who isn’t committed to their mother. Plenty of people make a marriage work for the sake of the kids, but it’s unlikely to be successful if one party is constantly looking elsewhere. If he’s a great dad, can’t he still be a great dad if you split up?

What did the lawyer say that made you resolved to stay?

Also something I probably should be honest about, right up until our conversation yesterday evening, he still had her number in his phone. So now do you think he is through with her?

[RebeccaR]

I didn’t say he was through with her,  and certainly not now you say he’s kept her number all this time. Now you are giving him an ultimatum, but didn’t you just give him an ultimatum a few weeks ago (to delete her permanently) which he immediately ignored?

Gently, unlike other cases of conflicted husbands, he never wanted to be with you. The fact that he loves the children is wonderful, but that will not solve your marital or family problems. You can both love the children, but you will both be miserable, he because he wants to be elsewhere and you because he cannot be trusted.

 

[LaurenEliz]

2 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I didn’t say he was through with her,  and certainly not now you say he’s kept her number all this time. Now you are giving him an ultimatum, but didn’t you just give him an ultimatum a few weeks ago (to delete her permanently) which he immediately ignored?

Gently, unlike other cases of conflicted husbands, he never wanted to be with you. The fact that he loves the children is wonderful, but that will not solve your marital or family problems. You can both love the children, but you will both be miserable, he because he wants to be elsewhere and you because he cannot be trusted.

 

You’re right. I even had the courage to question him about the infamous sync - he still stands by that her number coming back was a mistake (from what I’ve learnt you sync to bring back numbers so that was a lie) and I also pointed out that if it was a ‘mistake’ he would have seen by now that her contact had magically reappeared in his phone and if he wanted to delete her, he would have done. Was I correct in saying that? 

[RebeccaR]

7 minutes ago, LaurenEliz said:

Was I correct in saying that? 

Correct in what way? He is clearly willing to ignore your serious concerns and your wishes while pretending to appease you. This pattern is not going to stop with or without a “closure message”. Didn’t he send her just that same message a few weeks ago?

You are going in circles.

[RebeccaR]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

Ok, if staying married is best, then just do that, no?

I agree that if you are determined to stay married, just bury your head in the sand and do it. That’s all you can control.

[BaileyB]

45 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I agree that if you are determined to stay married, just bury your head in the sand and do it. That’s all you can control.

If he is done with her, he’s going to tire of the fact that you refuse to trust him and take him at his word. 

But, how can you trust him and take him at his word when he has behaved in untrustworthy ways. 

Do you see the conundrum here. Where is the happy ending?

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, RebeccaR said:

Gently, unlike other cases of conflicted husbands, he never wanted to be with you. The fact that he loves the children is wonderful, but that will not solve your marital or family problems. You can both love the children, but you will both be miserable, he because he wants to be elsewhere and you because he cannot be trusted.

This is the bottom line, the reality that just can not be avoided, no matter how you try to convince yourself otherwise. 

[Crazelnut]

Oh right, SECOND ultimatums totally work. </sarcasm>

Lauren, up until the moment you confronted him (again), HE HAD HER NUMBER IN HIS PHONE. He is not done with her. He WILL resume contact. How many more times are you going to play this same cycle of find evidence - silently agonize - confront husband - issue plea/threat/ultimatum - find evidence??  You cannot believe him when he tells you he will stop. He cannot stop because he loves her.

Your children will not be better off with you two staying miserably married.And worse, they'll learn that daddies get to cheat and that it's normal for Mommy & Daddy to not love each other. Is that what you want them to learn? Lots of children survive divorce and thrive in a stable, calm environment with 2 different homes.  This isn't 1950. Divorcees and children of divorce aren't shunned. They will be fine.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Crazelnut

[Stupidkupid]

3 hours ago, LaurenEliz said:

Hi lovely, I hope you are ok. Thanks, I understand what you’re saying but we need to give it a chance right now. If he chooses the option to not send her a message of closure, do you think that says anything? And thank you for your continued guidance and support

I'm good, thank you, but I am really sad that you're going through this. You don't deserve to feel this way or to be second guessing yourself.

I don't think there is any way to judge it one way or the other. In my situation it was me who ended it as the AP and I did send a fibal message and then I blocked everywhere. But I did this of my own volition. Not because we were caught but because it had to be over. For me, him and his BS.

When he had cut me off occasionally in the past, I must say, I took it better when he gave me a message but largely because I knew that that simple act of him speaking out spoke to that fact that he cared how I felt.

But when he just tried to stop contact (only happened once) I did not take it well and, to my shame, persued other avenues briefly. Eventually I stopped as I knew it was wrong but then he started leaving "coded" messages on social media, that he knew I would see and understand but that no-one else would pick up on, prompting me to contsct him. What I am trying to say is the fact that he still has her number after all this time, speaks volumes and the fact that, even after you have confronted him again, its still there, tells you something.

I'm really sorry.

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, LaurenEliz said:

I said he has a choice and I’m going to leave it up to him to decide what to do, which isn’t controlling of me at all. 

a) deletes and blocks with no message or 

b) deletes and blocks with a message.

What if it is c) he deletes and blocks her but continues to see her and communicate with a burner phone/other method?

[NYAG]

18 hours ago, LaurenEliz said:

Hi, thanks - I’m currently in the process of what is best. Block and delete with no message or block and delete with a message. 

i think if a message isn’t sent, there’s still a way back for him. Do I make sense? 

Yes, that makes sense. You should send a message and make it absolutely clear this is the end.

[elaine567]

15 hours ago, RebeccaR said:

. This pattern is not going to stop with or without a “closure message”. Didn’t he send her just that same message a few weeks ago?

Yes.

[Acacia98]

On 5/2/2021 at 12:49 PM, LaurenEliz said:

I am confronting him today on multiple issues. I just want to make sure I’m not going to be blindsided by some excuse. He hates her or wants to know that it’s her txting or calling him so he can ignore it she’s crazy etc etc?

There is absolutely no reason for him to have her number is there

I see. I finally understand why you keep asking this question. You don't have confidence in your ability to stand up for yourself in a face-to-face confrontation because he has previously succeeded in manipulating you and making you feel like your accusations were ridiculous. So you want to be sure you've covered all the excuses he could come up with.

You have my sympathy. If that's the usual dynamic of your interactions, why confront him at all? Why not just do what you need to do to tie up loose ends then have him served with divorce papers (if you've decided to go forward with divorce)?

Also, it might help you to look up "gaslighting."

[Acacia98]

@LaurenEliz, I've been thinking about this: I think you're going to struggle with whatever decisions you make about your marriage and your family because you don't quite understand what this relationship has done to you. You need to understand the dynamics of your relationship with your husband: what he does, why he does it, why you respond as you do. I suggest you search for the YouTube videos of DoctorRamani. She tends to focus on narcissism, but I find her videos useful for anyone to watch because they break down topics like "gaslighting," "manipulation" etc. well. Your husband does not have to be a narcissist for you to benefit from watching her videos. 

She has a video titled "What is gaslighting?" Search for "Gaslighting Dr Ramani" on any search engine and the video should appear in the search results. When you're done with it, if you have time, feel free to do more searches on "gaslighting" and read/watch more on the subject or to continue watching more of her videos.

I went through a period where I watched a video by her every day and it was very helpful.

[heartwhole2]

Is a marriage that involves a love triangle something you want? The unfortunate reality is that you cannot force anyone else in the love triangle to act how you want. The only thing you can control is whether you stay or go. If your husband won't offer you a faithful marriage based on transparency and trust, then you can exit the marriage. 

Your husband is offering only poor choices, unfortunately. What you really want -- a healthy, happy marriage -- isn't on offer at the moment. Accepting that is a big first step that will allow you to make the best choice for you and your kids. I know it isn't easy; there's grief that you can't have the marriage that you want. But please trust me that there's no other way out of this obsessive, hyper-vigilant state you're in. 

Remember that the phone number is just a proxy for the affair. He can have the number or not on his phone . . . that doesn't mean there aren't a thousand other ways they can keep in touch. If you are going to make an ultimatum, it should be asking for what you really want . . . his going NC with her, his commitment to the marriage, his honesty and transparency. If it were me, I'd just say that. "I deserve to be in a marriage that's just two people. I deserve a partner who doesn't use technicalities to stay in contact with his mistress. I deserve a relationship based on honesty and respect. And it looks like you're not willing to be that partner. Your loss." 

[LaurenEliz]

On 5/14/2021 at 8:11 PM, Acacia98 said:

I see. I finally understand why you keep asking this question. You don't have confidence in your ability to stand up for yourself in a face-to-face confrontation because he has previously succeeded in manipulating you and making you feel like your accusations were ridiculous. So you want to be sure you've covered all the excuses he could come up with.

You have my sympathy. If that's the usual dynamic of your interactions, why confront him at all? Why not just do what you need to do to tie up loose ends then have him served with divorce papers (if you've decided to go forward with divorce)?

Also, it might help you to look up "gaslighting."

You’re very correct in what your saying and thank you, I have spent the past couple of days researching various things  appreciate your help

[LaurenEliz]

Sorry I’ve been quiet, I have been reading people’s replies. I’m quietly getting my ducks in a row. We had ten minutes to ourselves yesterday and I asked him about her. I asked if he told her that we had another baby. His response? ‘No I didn’t’ - so I reacted in a way that surprised him and me, I said - ‘well doesn’t she deserve to know’? And he said it don’t want to tell her’. 
 

[Stupidkupid]

21 minutes ago, LaurenEliz said:

Sorry I’ve been quiet, I have been reading people’s replies. I’m quietly getting my ducks in a row. We had ten minutes to ourselves yesterday and I asked him about her. I asked if he told her that we had another baby. His response? ‘No I didn’t’ - so I reacted in a way that surprised him and me, I said - ‘well doesn’t she deserve to know’? And he said it don’t want to tell her’. 
 

Hey, how are you doing?

So, I'm going to ask your thoughts on the bit in bold. I know why this is, but why do you believe he doesn't want to tell her? Or what has he said in respect of his reasoning?

In regards to your statement to him, I think she should know and I can explain why but she doesn't "deserve" to. That is a different thing

[LaurenEliz]

Just now, Stupidkupid said:

Hey, how are you doing?

So, I'm going to ask your thoughts on the bit in bold. I know why this is, but why do you believe he doesn't want to tell her? Or what has he said in respect of his reasoning?

In regards to your statement to him, I think she should know and I can explain why but she doesn't "deserve" to. That is a different thing

Hi I’m ok, how are you doing? Well the way he said it, it was almost as if he wanted to protect her if that makes sense? I don’t know that’s just how it came across to me. What’s even more pathetic, was that he also said ‘what does it matter anyway, she’s deleted me’ It obviously took a lot for me to bite my tongue, I wanted to scream at him I wanted to say well if she has deleted you, what possible reason could you have for keeping her number. But I didn’t because I don’t know what excuse he would tell me 

[Stupidkupid]

40 minutes ago, LaurenEliz said:

Hi I’m ok, how are you doing? Well the way he said it, it was almost as if he wanted to protect her if that makes sense? I don’t know that’s just how it came across to me. What’s even more pathetic, was that he also said ‘what does it matter anyway, she’s deleted me’ It obviously took a lot for me to bite my tongue, I wanted to scream at him I wanted to say well if she has deleted you, what possible reason could you have for keeping her number. But I didn’t because I don’t know what excuse he would tell me 

I'm okay.

Ugh, I'm sorry for you.

My take on why he doesn't want to tell her is that if he tells her then it collapses some of his lies to her (he's undoubtedly told her you guys aren't intimate) and also, potentially harms any chance of her taking him back (as she knows he still has a relationship with you, even though he almost certainly told ger he basically didn't). And yes, I suspect, some of it protecting her. But there are most likely selfish reasons behind it

[LaurenEliz]

2 minutes ago, Stupidkupid said:

I'm okay.

Ugh, I'm sorry for you.

My take on why he doesn't want to tell her is that if he tells her then it collapses some of his lies to her (he's undoubtedly told her you guys aren't intimate) and also, potentially harms any chance of her taking him back (as she knows he still has a relationship with you, even though he almost certainly told ger he basically didn't). And yes, I suspect, some of it protecting her. But there are most likely selfish reasons behind it

Thank you. And I’m honestly so thankful for your honesty on here. To be honest, I’m starting to see through the fog a little. I’m actually finding it quite pathetic that even though he says she has deleted his information, he has still kept hers. It makes me think he’s figuring out what to say to her