Catfish

[Weezy1973]

25 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I'll take Weezy1973's advice and work on making the best of the interactions I do get, seems to make the most sense to me and is bearing in mind my limited interactions the most practical advice.

That is not my advice. This is you, as you tend to do, twisting things around so you never actually have to step outside your comfort zone. So you can keep doing things that won’t work. Tinder, “window shopping”, friend zone, etc.

 

My advice is to change what you’re doing. And because you’re so resistant, you pretty much will need to get to the root of why that is, and that will take therapy. 

[CaliforniaGirl]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Why must I give anyone a chance when I am not given a chance?

Isn't it the other way around? Be honest.

Excuse after excuse after excuse for not having a woman come near. Any woman.

So I've asked a few times. Want to elaborate on how you've said you feel like you need to/should go after dates because your family wants you to/thinks you should/gives you a hard time? Don't you think that might be key to this entire thing - you don't want to date women, but you think people want you to, so you go through these motions to prove just how hard you're working to find a girlfriend (while avoiding actually having one)?

And no "I can't help who I'm attracted to" this time - you can help that, you just automatically are disgusted with anyone who might become a viable option. Like the woman who thought you were exactly her type looks-wise, she thought you were incredibly handsome, so you were like GO. THE. EFF. AWAY. Like that.

Edited July 21, 2021 by CaliforniaGirl

[ZA Dater]

12 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

Isn't it the other way around? Be honest.

Excuse after excuse after excuse for not having a woman come near. Any woman.

So I've asked a few times. Want to elaborate on how you've said you feel like you need to/should go after dates because your family wants you to/thinks you should/gives you a hard time? Don't you think that might be key to this entire thing - you don't want to date women, but you think people want you to, so you go through these motions to prove just how hard you're working to find a girlfriend (while avoiding actually having one)?

And no "I can't help who I'm attracted to" this time - you can help that, you just automatically are disgusted with anyone who might become a viable option. Like the woman who thought you were exactly her type looks-wise, she thought you were incredibly handsome, so you were like GO. THE. EFF. AWAY. Like that.

Society makes dating a requirement, do I want to date, yes actually I do. Do I want to compromise so heavily and date someone I am not interested in simply because she finds me handsome, absolutely not. Maybe I simply want to do the picking as opposed to being picked, is that so unreasonable?

I know what I want and anything less than that I do not really want, if I cant get that well, then unlike many its easy to just have nothing. Remember have nothing anyway so having more of the same makes no difference to me hence why I actually am looking for that middle ground of "most that I want, less that I do not want" and the posters who say Tinder does not work for this, I concede they may be totally correct! 

My interest in dating started when everyone else's did but the difference was the people I always found attractive were one with attractive personalities and attract physical appearances. For me its always both, one cannot supersede the other and this is what I mean by overall attraction. Do I sometimes go through the motions with this to appease others, yeah I do sometimes, its very difficult find any enthusiasm when people try to set me up with people I am not particularly interested in.

Dating or attempting to has taught me a lot though so its not all been bad even if I am no closer to actually dating anyone!

[ZA Dater]

13 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

Like I said. You immediately reject anyone who might actually ask to touch you, kiss you, be near you.

This will NEVER be fixed, ZA, until you look it squarely in the face. Never. How many years has this been now? And how many dozens of pages per thread and how many dozens of threads?

The day I actually find mutual attraction then I can actually say I am dating, until them its just trying to fit puzzle pieces which do not fit together. IF those people looking to touch and kiss me were of my choosing then sure I'd really like that because I'd be interested in them and attracted to them. 

Its like this, how would you like it if a guy came up to you in a store and very overtly flirted or even propositioned you, my guess is you would not like that at all. When someone I hardly now is falling over themselves to get friendly with me I walk away because if I were that super handsome guy I would not be in the position I am so logic would say there is some sort of ulterior motive which is enough to put me off completely.

Even other posters here agreed with me.

 

[ZA Dater]

13 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

That is not my advice. This is you, as you tend to do, twisting things around so you never actually have to step outside your comfort zone. So you can keep doing things that won’t work. Tinder, “window shopping”, friend zone, etc.

 

My advice is to change what you’re doing. And because you’re so resistant, you pretty much will need to get to the root of why that is, and that will take therapy. 

Ah yes the usual therapy line still waiting from somebody to tell me what therapy has to do with being attractive, I can spend days in therapy its not going to make me any more physically attractive which we all know is what really matters unless you subscribe to the "well you know as I guy I need to give B a chance because well maybe she is actually attractive, all the while C who I really do like, well she will dismiss me in 5 minutes because well she has endless options and never give me a chance and well you know she is not in my league, best I just suffer it and try force myself to like B because well there are no other options oh and my league defines my self worth".

Great stuff. 

 

 

[basil67]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I can spend days in therapy its not going to make me any more physically attractive which we all know is what really matters unless you subscribe to the "well you know as I guy I need to give B a chance because well....

No, therapy is needed because you think this is true ^ .  And you mentioned earlier that you debate with therapists - you could use therapy to work out why you do that too. 

Therapy would help you look at your perspective if you are willing to reconsider it.   To help you remove your blinkers and see that there are plenty of men who are happy in relationships despite not being an adonis, wealthy or powerful.  Even you can concede that most guys have had or are in relationships despite not being all that.   They could also work on your social and dating skills.   And a therapist could help you look at why you respond sarcastically (as in your post to @Weezy1973)  to people who are genuinely trying to help you. 

[CaliforniaGirl]

38 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The day I actually find mutual attraction then I can actually say I am dating, until them its just trying to fit puzzle pieces which do not fit together. IF those people looking to touch and kiss me were of my choosing then sure I'd really like that because I'd be interested in them and attracted to them. 

Its like this, how would you like it if a guy came up to you in a store and very overtly flirted or even propositioned you, my guess is you would not like that at all. When someone I hardly now is falling over themselves to get friendly with me I walk away because if I were that super handsome guy I would not be in the position I am so logic would say there is some sort of ulterior motive which is enough to put me off completely.

Even other posters here agreed with me.

 

I have literally never in my life seen anybody try so hard not to date. That doesn't mean I don't know anybody who has decided not to date. But they own it and they're happy.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, basil67 said:

No, therapy is needed because you think this is true ^ .  And you mentioned earlier that you debate with therapists - you could use therapy to work out why you do that too. 

Therapy would help you look at your perspective if you are willing to reconsider it.   To help you remove your blinkers and see that there are plenty of men who are happy in relationships despite not being an adonis, wealthy or powerful.  Even you can concede that most guys have had or are in relationships despite not being all that.   They could also work on your social and dating skills.   And a therapist could help you look at why you respond sarcastically (as in your post to @Weezy1973)  to people who are genuinely trying to help you. 

I am not prepared to reconsider my perspective in so much as accepting the very "league" mentality bandied about. Its like saying to  kid, "well do not aspire to anything just loaf around on the couch because Joe Soap's kids is more intelligent than you so may as well not bother trying". I am sure there are lots of people who are happy limiting themselves to leagues , I am not and will never be happy doing that. 

Equally I am sure there are lots of people happy, great, I'd like to believe they find their partners attractive. People telling me "oh give this person a chance and what about that person who liked you" the point being missed is I NEVER chose those people, they were not people who interested me from the off and yet now I must give them a chance? Why? If people do not find me interesting they do not go around giving me chances, absolutely not.

I found therapy added absolutely zero value to me whatsoever and was a complete waste of time.

[jspice]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I am not prepared to reconsider my perspective in so much as accepting the very "league" mentality bandied about. Its like saying to  kid, "well do not aspire to anything just loaf around on the couch because Joe Soap's kids is more intelligent than you so may as well not bother trying". I am sure there are lots of people who are happy limiting themselves to leagues , I am not and will never be happy doing that. 

Equally I am sure there are lots of people happy, great, I'd like to believe they find their partners attractive. People telling me "oh give this person a chance and what about that person who liked you" the point being missed is I NEVER chose those people, they were not people who interested me from the off and yet now I must give them a chance? Why? If people do not find me interesting they do not go around giving me chances, absolutely not.

I found therapy added absolutely zero value to me whatsoever and was a complete waste of time.

Nobody tells their child don’t aspire to anything. They tell their child “ you can be anything you want to but you need the skills” . Imagine your child wanted to be a doctor but they didn’t have to improve their education in order to be a doctor. 
THAT is what you’re doing. 
 

I want a woman I have nothing to offer but I want to just sit here on the couch till she comes to me. 
 

You insult everyone here but you want their attention. Your sarcasm has won you few friends online and I imagine in real life too. 

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

I have literally never in my life seen anybody try so hard not to date. That doesn't mean I don't know anybody who has decided not to date. But they own it and they're happy.

Because I actually want to date people I find attractive or because I simply wont subscribe to the "that will do" philosophy of dating?

Why do people decide not to date, what motivates that decision? I am told continually how easy it is to date so why would someone not want to do that? 

 

[ZA Dater]

13 minutes ago, jspice said:

Nobody tells their child don’t aspire to anything. They tell their child “ you can be anything you want to but you need the skills” . Imagine your child wanted to be a doctor but they didn’t have to improve their education in order to be a doctor. 
THAT is what you’re doing. 
 

I want a woman I have nothing to offer but I want to just sit here on the couch till she comes to me. 
 

You insult everyone here but you want their attention. Your sarcasm has won you few friends online and I imagine in real life too. 

Skills. Ah we are back to that. Never said I have nothing to offer, what I did say is I am an outlier because I refuse to simply follow the crowd and question nothing. Everyone has something to offer including people I do not find attractive. I am sure there are many guys who would find them attractive. 

I have insulted nobody here, apologies if I have.

When I go on dates with people I find attractive I do actually try make the best of it, I do try make her laugh, I do try not take myself too seriously, I do try get her to speak, I do pay attention to what she says and take an interest, its not like I actually sit back and do nothing at all. Heck I will even try to flirt or banter as awkward as they can sometimes be. 

Where I will not back down is to subscribe to the "that will do for you" theory, I have had this out with friends before who sought to try and apparently "help". All this "help" amounted was being patronizing "well you know she is really great", yeah if she is so hot and so fantastic why are you not falling over yourself to date her. 

As for skills, pretty happy with the ones I do have.

[jspice]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Skills. Ah we are back to that. Never said I have nothing to offer, what I did say is I am an outlier because I refuse to simply follow the crowd and question nothing. Everyone has something to offer including people I do not find attractive. I am sure there are many guys who would find them attractive. 

I have insulted nobody here, apologies if I have.

When I go on dates with people I find attractive I do actually try make the best of it, I do try make her laugh, I do try not take myself too seriously, I do try get her to speak, I do pay attention to what she says and take an interest, its not like I actually sit back and do nothing at all. Heck I will even try to flirt or banter as awkward as they can sometimes be. 

Where I will not back down is to subscribe to the "that will do for you" theory, I have had this out with friends before who sought to try and apparently "help". All this "help" amounted was being patronizing "well you know she is really great", yeah if she is so hot and so fantastic why are you not falling over yourself to date her. 

As for skills, pretty happy with the ones I do have.

OK 👍 

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I am not prepared to reconsider my perspective in so much as accepting the very "league" mentality bandied about. Its like saying to  kid, "well do not aspire to anything just loaf around on the couch because Joe Soap's kids is more intelligent than you so may as well not bother trying". I am sure there are lots of people who are happy limiting themselves to leagues , I am not and will never be happy doing that. 

Having the attractiveness level of a woman as something to aspire to or a goal to set for yourself doesn’t make sense. Because acquiring a person doesn’t make sense. And attractiveness doesn’t mean anything. Look at all the extremely attractive Hollywood couples that crash and burn into divorce.

 

Aspiring to achieve a long term, happy, healthy relationship, with someone compatible who shares similar core values is worthy of aspiration. 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Why do people decide not to date, what motivates that decision? I am told continually how easy it is to date so why would someone not want to do that? 

 

It is easy to date. It’s harder to find a match. And if you’re dating strangers (such as through OLD) it can be much harder to find a match.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

It is easy to date. It’s harder to find a match. And if you’re dating strangers (such as through OLD) it can be much harder to find a match.

Well it would seem MILLIONS of people find it easy to find a match, I am not being sarcastic but simply pointing out the obvious. Maybe I am just too particular for my own good or I look for things which are maybe not important to many. I still consider myself to be lucky in my dating search.

[Weezy1973]

@ZA Dater what’s baffling is that what you’re doing is not working. You’ve been posting basically the same thing for years and years. You’ve never had a second date, never mind a relationship. 
 

Yet you keep debating somehow that your perspective, thoughts, and beliefs are correct and therefore keep trying the same things over and over again. And keep failing.

And that’s the story of your life so far. If you want the story to change, you’re going to have to change what you’re doing. Which usually starts with challenging our own perspectives, thoughts and beliefs. And therapy is a good place to go for that.

 

And absolutely nobody is telling you to date people you find unattractive. 

[Weezy1973]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Well it would seem MILLIONS of people find it easy to find a match, I am not being sarcastic but simply pointing out the obvious. Maybe I am just too particular for my own good or I look for things which are maybe not important to many. I still consider myself to be lucky in my dating search.

I’d say billions find a match overall. Maybe millions through OLD. I mean we’re a semi-monogamous, sexually reproducing species. Our species would die out if the majority followed your strategy.

[elaine567]

I believe the blast from the past i.e. your thread from 2015 linked to here this week should have been a wake up call for you.
You are stuck in the same old, same old, since then.
Were you not mortified?

Nothing, absolutely nothing has essentially changed.

"I want a hot gf to show off to my friends, I can't get a hot gf... Wah, Wah, Wah.. the big girls don't like me...it is not my fault... it is not fair..."

You then say you will give up,  only you don't give up, nor do you "improve", you just keep doing the same stuff and thinking the same stuff, with the same results... 
You continue with no attempt to gain experience, no attempt to actually act like a 37 man in the dating world...justifying your stance with nonsensical circular arguments on and on, ad infinitum...
Blaming anyone and everyone, for YOUR lack of success...
That is why you need professional help, else you will be still complaining about your disastrous dating life, when you are 85....
 

[SumGuy]

23 hours ago, elaine567 said:

But they are not "giving a chance" to a person who they see "has potential" are they?
A person with potential will be first choice or not far from the top of choices
They are "giving a chance" to people who "may" have potential, or they see as a no hoper, but... just in case...
People with options do not need to scrape the barrel...

I think we are saying the same thing...just maybe different connotations of words.   I see giving someone a "cahnce" when you are not sure but maybe they have potential, that second date for example.  But agree for more (a relationship, even sex for most) there has to be potential and people with potential are on the list of those to choose.

My view of potential is a person who in their core has it, it is just the outer ephemeral shell that (perhaps shyness and lack of experience) that is lacking so you may need to take the lead when otherwise would not.  I don't believe in "potential" when you think need to change something fundamental about the other person, for many reasons.

Oh yes, the women ZADater is after have options (although I suspect they too struggle to find a non-transactional guy who is not 90% looks) but if you are never going to make it if you are just another transactional guy (that is a problem with your core) there is no "potential" there, unless you are the cream of the crop and she is deciding to settle for a transactional guy.

[SumGuy]

22 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

...Do you think I am not judged? Everyone judges to some degree ....

Of course you are, we all are (well some seem to get away with pretty egregious things...but I digress).  That that influences how you treat others, as a justification for how you treat others is transactional.  I also don't hope you believe you are judge more harshly than many others, that the prejudice you face is anywhere near and of the kind that many others face day to day in a way that threatens their very existence and ability to exist.   If some of those folks can put aside the injustice done to them (and actual violence) and still be non-judgmental and give even their oppressors a chance, then it is within your capacity.

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I am also not going to bend over backwards and grovel to try make someone find me attractive, frankly I have been there many times and it never works, ...

A fine example of ignoring all I say to try to shift the conversation...I have never ever talked about groveling, agree it doesn't work.  If you truly think what I am talking about is groveling you are far, far deeper down the transactional rabbit hole that I thought.

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I have given countless people chances and I am convinced this not really not what I want to do UNLESS there is something I find attractive which negated negative points.... 

Not from what I have read, going on a date isn't the chance I am talking about, the "chance" is actually engaging them as a person regardless of your sexual attraction to them.  This is about giving people a "chance" by lowering the wall you put up to the world.  You know that.   It really is about giving yourself a chance, as suspect so many times she is sitting there waiting for you to show some semblance of genuine life before she lets her wall down.  And before you whine about why doesn't she go first...get some guts, and she may well be going first you just can't pick up on it...which I believe is likely the case most of the time where she brings up topics most non-transactional guys can talk about and begin the process of getting to know each other.

Also, a non-transactional person isn't going to keep score about who goes first, and you really have no empathy for the situation women find themselves in in dating if you can't understand why they may be subtle to get you to go first.

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I am not stupid, each time I do down this dating road, I weight up the chances of success and act according and take on risk based on how likely I think I might actually accomplish something,

Your knowledge is never perfect, and your experience is so lacking and chip on your shoulder so large I suspect you misinterpret most of the data you do see.  Stupid, depends on how you define it, foolish perhaps.  A smart person realizes the limits of their actual knowledge, facts versus supposition, especially in the realm of people.

Nevertheless, you keep proving my point.  This whole cost benefit analysis you go through (for something as simple as letting down you emotional wall and engaging) is pure transactional thinking and/or a level of insecurity most of the women you are after have no interest in dealing with (I suspect in combination with other things you have described in you behavior, it screams "nice guy" in all the bad ways).

You let down your wall and talk because there is no other way.

I'm not saying take someone you have no attraction to on a holiday.  You are so far away from that.  All my advice is just so you give yourself chance on a first date...you can barely if ever get past the first date.  So to the extent you will spin this into yet another transactional narrative about things, it is not about that.  It is about how you keep distant, emotionally disconnected behind a wall until she meets your criteria and you might get something out of it.

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.... why because there was an incentive, ....

The incentive here is if you let down your wall you may find more Ks and actually get beyond a friendship.  

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Up till 5 years those closest to never really realized how I struggled with dating, I opened up about that which was not very comfortable but I did it anyway. None of these is transactional they were things I did to try take the rough edges off a bit and hopefully what remained would be more valued.

You have no idea what transactional thinking is I am thinking.  Your responses just keep proving it over and over.  Asking for help doesn't prove anything, but it is good.   Self improvement can very much be in line with transactional thinking (whole industries built around improving status), as it all depends on what you consider valuable, and what is being improved.  Transactional thinking is all about improving those material signals of status...as there is nothing else.   

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There is one thing I am missing: some success at this because I know if I had some I'd have foundations to build on.

Foundation as in less insecurity, yes indeed.   Not sure what success you need, to me it seems you need the whole mansion pre-made, no starter home for you.  A foundation can come from within, it is laid to create success not a consequence of it.

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Truthfully it would seem the only value I have to those I do like is purely transactional. Either take that or have nothing, those seem to be the only two options.

I agree with that in part.  All you have shown here in my view (limited as it is) is transactional thinking and values.  Thus, you are more likely to attract and be attracted to those who are transactional, but suspect you have also attracted the attention of non-transactional women (who meet your criteria as well) who you end up putting off.

Will say it again, the way I see it you have these two options: (1) continue with your world view and increase your status so someday some transactional woman will think your personality is worth the effort for more than friends; or (2) change your world view so you become attractive to non-transactional women...although it is a bit more than mouthing some words, as a changed world view will change how you act and interact.

Edited July 22, 2021 by SumGuy

[SumGuy]

22 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

When someone is within 5 minutes telling me I am the most handsome man they have ever seen, yeah there is something off because if I was that I would not be a 37yo virgin. ...

Such self-defeating foolishness.  Handsome is in the eye of the beholder and just being good looking guarantees nothing especially after you go on about all the years you ignored women for work.  As said before it is not your looks why you are a virgin it's your attitude and inability to be personable.   Are we back to the point in the circle where it is you are "ugly"?

I feel like I am in an episode of Dark.

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, SumGuy said:

Such self-defeating foolishness.  Handsome is in the eye of the beholder and just being good looking guarantees nothing especially after you go on about all the years you ignored women for work.  As said before it is not your looks why you are a virgin it's your attitude and inability to be personable.   Are we back to the point in the circle where it is you are "ugly"?

I feel like I am in an episode of Dark.

 

Honestly my friend, if NOBODY describes me as that and suddenly someone comes along who is over eager and showering me in frankly ridiculous compliments, my BS radar is set off, desperate is never an attractive quality to portray and it certainly is not one I find attractive in others. I am sure many here would have run off with her, I felt nothing for her and was not eve slightly interested, that is my decision and in this instance is is very easy to live with.

Actually I can be personable or at the very least try when I want to but you will then just say that is transaction like thinking, it is not really because I am frankly just tired of the same old matches, the same sort of dates, the same sort of issues and the same lack of whatever. I am at the moment trying to have a conversation with someone who has two kids, the father is not in the picture and I am TRYING to find something interesting because you are ALL telling me that apparently if this is my league, just suck it it up and make do with it. Am I interested, not even slightly but you are telling me I should be interested so....

The entire game would be different if I had any sort of ability to choose, instead I am just stuck with whoever seems to like me but as I am learning here few really have any ability to choose. 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, SumGuy said:

I think we are saying the same thing...just maybe different connotations of words.   I see giving someone a "cahnce" when you are not sure but maybe they have potential, that second date for example.  But agree for more (a relationship, even sex for most) there has to be potential and people with potential are on the list of those to choose.

My view of potential is a person who in their core has it, it is just the outer ephemeral shell that (perhaps shyness and lack of experience) that is lacking so you may need to take the lead when otherwise would not.  I don't believe in "potential" when you think need to change something fundamental about the other person, for many reasons.

Oh yes, the women ZADater is after have options (although I suspect they too struggle to find a non-transactional guy who is not 90% looks) but if you are never going to make it if you are just another transactional guy (that is a problem with your core) there is no "potential" there, unless you are the cream of the crop and she is deciding to settle for a transactional guy.

Sure, so other can look for potential and I must just make do with whoever deems me worthy of their attention? 

I am glad to read the bold part, at least I know someone believes in this, I do too but its rather useless because I have about 5 minutes to impress the person, if not well they have endless choices of finished articles and there is no real need to take on a "project".

I only became transactional when I realised that all this is really is meet and throw away, invest nothing because unless you are SURE you actually have something the other person might want, why bother investing anything at all. The ladies I like have endless options but most ladies do and my only chance of anything withe them is to prove that I have some sort of use, that gets me the friend zone. Which is a lot better than being rejected.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Of course you are, we all are (well some seem to get away with pretty egregious things...but I digress).  That that influences how you treat others, as a justification for how you treat others is transactional.  I also don't hope you believe you are judge more harshly than many others, that the prejudice you face is anywhere near and of the kind that many others face day to day in a way that threatens their very existence and ability to exist.   If some of those folks can put aside the injustice done to them (and actual violence) and still be non-judgmental and give even their oppressors a chance, then it is within your capacity.

A fine example of ignoring all I say to try to shift the conversation...I have never ever talked about groveling, agree it doesn't work.  If you truly think what I am talking about is groveling you are far, far deeper down the transactional rabbit hole that I thought.

Not from what I have read, going on a date isn't the chance I am talking about, the "chance" is actually engaging them as a person regardless of your sexual attraction to them.  This is about giving people a "chance" by lowering the wall you put up to the world.  You know that.   It really is about giving yourself a chance, as suspect so many times she is sitting there waiting for you to show some semblance of genuine life before she lets her wall down.  And before you whine about why doesn't she go first...get some guts, and she may well be going first you just can't pick up on it...which I believe is likely the case most of the time where she brings up topics most non-transactional guys can talk about and begin the process of getting to know each other.

Also, a non-transactional person isn't going to keep score about who goes first, and you really have no empathy for the situation women find themselves in in dating if you can't understand why they may be subtle to get you to go first.

Your knowledge is never perfect, and your experience is so lacking and chip on your shoulder so large I suspect you misinterpret most of the data you do see.  Stupid, depends on how you define it, foolish perhaps.  A smart person realizes the limits of their actual knowledge, facts versus supposition, especially in the realm of people.

Nevertheless, you keep proving my point.  This whole cost benefit analysis you go through (for something as simple as letting down you emotional wall and engaging) is pure transactional thinking and/or a level of insecurity most of the women you are after have no interest in dealing with (I suspect in combination with other things you have described in you behavior, it screams "nice guy" in all the bad ways).

You let down your wall and talk because there is no other way.

I'm not saying take someone you have no attraction to on a holiday.  You are so far away from that.  All my advice is just so you give yourself chance on a first date...you can barely if ever get past the first date.  So to the extent you will spin this into yet another transactional narrative about things, it is not about that.  It is about how you keep distant, emotionally disconnected behind a wall until she meets your criteria and you might get something out of it.

The incentive here is if you let down your wall you may find more Ks and actually get beyond a friendship.  

You have no idea what transactional thinking is I am thinking.  Your responses just keep proving it over and over.  Asking for help doesn't prove anything, but it is good.   Self improvement can very much be in line with transactional thinking (whole industries built around improving status), as it all depends on what you consider valuable, and what is being improved.  Transactional thinking is all about improving those material signals of status...as there is nothing else.   

Foundation as in less insecurity, yes indeed.   Not sure what success you need, to me it seems you need the whole mansion pre-made, no starter home for you.  A foundation can come from within, it is laid to create success not a consequence of it.

I agree with that in part.  All you have shown here in my view (limited as it is) is transactional thinking and values.  Thus, you are more likely to attract and be attracted to those who are transactional, but suspect you have also attracted the attention of non-transactional women (who meet your criteria as well) who you end up putting off.

Will say it again, the way I see it you have these two options: (1) continue with your world view and increase your status so someday some transactional woman will think your personality is worth the effort for more than friends; or (2) change your world view so you become attractive to non-transactional women...although it is a bit more than mouthing some words, as a changed world view will change how you act and interact.

You raise a good point here. So I should just give everyone a chance irrespective whether I find them interesting/attractive/not compatible? Is this what you suggest? I have not issue in engaging in conversation when  have the opportunity to do so, be it with someone selling me cake or a potential client but the conversations I have all have a purpose.

Honestly I can think about maybe a handful of times I was actually interested in spending more time with the person sitting in front of me and yes I did lower my walls in those instances which helped not one iota because there was also some issue or another, the most famous one being no chemistry. 

OK well the facts do not lie, I have has not tangible success of any sort. Whether I sit there and bear my soul or sit them and try get her to talk, sit there and try have small talk conversation, or heck spend the evening dancing with her or sitting or 5 hours talking to her, listening to her speak taking an interest in what she says. No matter what I actually do the outcome is the same.

No when I let down my wall I get told "well you have no experience, go and find someone like you" or I get told "I am not dating teacher" or I get told "aw shame I really struggle too" yeah right when you are dating a new person each week, why do this, there seems no point to it and every experience just makes me even more jaded.

I have NEVER attracted anyone I have found attractive EVER. NOT ONCE. Accomplishing that would be something all on its own. What I have attracted are multitude of people some of which have been nice people but were simply not attractive people to me or were simply incompatible with me, I suppose I was wrong to not find these people attractive?

The solace I take from my transaction based world is the people I gets me close to are sometimes people I really like and again I'd rather have crumbs of a cake I like that slices of something I do not really like, I do not expect anyone to understand that. Oh and I challenge you on the transaction part simply because effectively you are saying a LOT of people on OLD are just that, transaction based, swipe here and swipe there, hot picture, well you get hundreds of like, normal picture doing something you are passionate about and NO matches, odd that how can that not be seen as transaction based?

A lady friend once told me something "dating and struggling at it, it makes good people go bad" I have never forgotten that. 

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, elaine567 said:

I believe the blast from the past i.e. your thread from 2015 linked to here this week should have been a wake up call for you.
You are stuck in the same old, same old, since then.
Were you not mortified?

Nothing, absolutely nothing has essentially changed.

"I want a hot gf to show off to my friends, I can't get a hot gf... Wah, Wah, Wah.. the big girls don't like me...it is not my fault... it is not fair..."

You then say you will give up,  only you don't give up, nor do you "improve", you just keep doing the same stuff and thinking the same stuff, with the same results... 
You continue with no attempt to gain experience, no attempt to actually act like a 37 man in the dating world...justifying your stance with nonsensical circular arguments on and on, ad infinitum...
Blaming anyone and everyone, for YOUR lack of success...
That is why you need professional help, else you will be still complaining about your disastrous dating life, when you are 85....
 

I have actually improved a bit since then, had some better experiences and am not putting myself though the "dating by numbers" nonsense of taking anyone and everyone from OLD on a date. The flip side, I am more jaded than ever, the other flip side I have pretty much done 75% of what I want to do with dating so the results are from my point of view much better.

Luckily there are things in my life I really do enjoy and put a smile on my face so the scale is mostly balanced. I live with the regrets but most of those are simply because I am never attractive enough for the people who really make me feel something. Not much I can really do about that or the fact what I have means I can never effectively compete with others.