Catfish

[dramafreezone]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

deluded myself to believer I had some good qualities people would like that is not the case, had a mighty slice of humble pie, decided I got more value out of being friends with people I found attractive. 

Every so often a part of me believes I can do this but when I try I quickly realise Chad will always have me beat so I may as well not bother which is easier said than it is done.

Well it's not up to you to decide what the consumer wants.  You can't open a store selling old newspapers and get mad when you're not making any money from it.

The thing is that there are women out there that want the good qualities that you have.  YOU just don't want them. 

Why is that?  I don't know, but I think it's along the lines of the Groucho Marx saying "I don't want to belong to any club that would accept me as one of its members."

Edited November 15, 2021 by dramafreezone

[ZA Dater]

20 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

Well it's not up to you to decide what the consumer wants.  You can't open a store selling old newspapers and get mad when you're not making any money from it.

The thing is that there are women out there that want the good qualities that you have.  YOU just don't want them. 

Why is that?  I don't know, but I think it's along the lines of the Groucho Marx saying "I don't want to belong to any club that would accept me as one of its members."

I like that saying and it's also true because why should I like what likes me just because well they like me.

Unfortunately it just is what it is. Just put it down to circumstances.

 

[bene]

I don’t agree that all women want Chads per se but they must have some qualities that work with women like putting them at ease, showing them a good time. Personally I would never take part in some nonsense where Chad is sleeping around and constantly looking for a better deal. This is not a healthy basis for a relationship let alone raising a family. I don’t think a nightclub full of Chads and Stacies is a model of society but rather a niche. Sex is one driving force in dating but not the only one considering a lifelong partnership and connection between two people. 

Bitterness is never attractive and a new woman is not responsible that someone else rejected you. There is no point in keeping score because that’s not how life works. If we use the shop analogy then no customer will come and convince you that what you’re selling is valuable. 

[ZA Dater]

26 minutes ago, bene said:

I don’t agree that all women want Chads per se but they must have some qualities that work with women like putting them at ease, showing them a good time. Personally I would never take part in some nonsense where Chad is sleeping around and constantly looking for a better deal. This is not a healthy basis for a relationship let alone raising a family. I don’t think a nightclub full of Chads and Stacies is a model of society but rather a niche. Sex is one driving force in dating but not the only one considering a lifelong partnership and connection between two people. 

Bitterness is never attractive and a new woman is not responsible that someone else rejected you. There is no point in keeping score because that’s not how life works. If we use the shop analogy then no customer will come and convince you that what you’re selling is valuable. 

At what point does one decide "this is the best deal"? Of course that is a pretty emotionless comment but lets try look at this dispassionately. I commend you for not partaking in Chad's antics and I'd argue all of those antics are not healthy at all but the world seems to work with them so there be some attraction to them. Sadly and with respect its all fun and games until Chad moves on to someone else at which point someone like me appeal but I'd not find that person attractive by virtue of the baggage.

You know I thought keeping score was pointless but cumulatively the score gives a sense of the overall experience and puts things in context quite nicely. The idea of bending over backwards for someone to maybe find me attractive is not really appealing either. I have had bad dating experiences, I have never had sex, I see no point in hiding either of those facts, if she does not like it then so be it because in all honesty both of those facts get me kicked to curb anyway so may as was make it happen sooner rather than later.

 

[elaine567]

36 minutes ago, bene said:

don’t agree that all women want Chads

Not all women, but the women ZA wants,  the models, the women his player friends hang about with, the attractive fit girls on the beach, "A" and "the yoga teacher" all want "Chads" - ie good looking, rich, charming guys, and "Chads" also want them, so it is not a futile exercise.
Its a mutual appreciation society that ZA is not really a part of.
 

[Foxhall]

I suppose the thing is you are quite comfortable being alone,

you are not motivated in being with people for the sake of it and get rather bored in a lot of company,

Yet you have that desire what we all crave I suppose, for that enjoyment of being with someone special

Perhaps for most of us here we find potentially attractive partners easier to come across, I mean we are happy enough in a sense being with someone compatible, they dont have to be "mind blowing"

there is no quick solution really, all you can do is put yourself out there which you seem to be doing,

you need a lucky break to meet someone who is attractive and with an engaging caring personality, someone with a lot of emotional intelligence,

Often then people meet their partners unexpectedly, no doubt the right woman is out there for you.

 

[dramafreezone]

19 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I like that saying and it's also true because why should I like what likes me just because well they like me.

Unfortunately it just is what it is. Just put it down to circumstances.

 

Well it speaks to self esteem.  If someone likes you, then that's a positive trait in them.  Did you ever think about it like that, that they're so astute to see how valuable you are?

On the other hand, if you think you're crap, then of course you don't really respect people that like you, going back to the Groucho Marx quote.

Whenever someone takes a liking to me, I automatically give them a bump in judgment, because they must have great judge of character to see what a great person I am.

Edited November 16, 2021 by dramafreezone

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, dramafreezone said:

Well it speaks to self esteem.  If someone likes you, then that's a positive trait in them.  Did you ever think about it like that, that they're so astute to see how valuable you are?

On the other hand, if you think you're crap, then of course you don't really respect people that like you, going back to the Groucho Marx quote.

Whenever someone takes a liking to me, I automatically give them a bump in judgment, because they must have great judge of character to see what a great person I am.

My thinking does not work like that because the people who like me are not ones I do find attractive, so the fact they like me is pretty irrelevant. Basically you would date someone because they liked you irrespective if you found them attractive or not or would they be rendered attractive because they liked you?

I think everyone is great in their own way and this is proven by the fact people do have relationships so its not like its just the superficially attractive people dating. 

Really it depends what people are actually looking for. Me, I absolutely know what I do not want and unluckily for me that far exceeds what I do actually want, blame this on years having a grand stand seat of how easy it is for certain type of guys to do the choosing and by the same token seeing the settle approach of some people I grew up with. For me though the most useful thing is to see who people I do find attractive do land up with because that pretty much answers my question as to why I had no chance.

For years I went on dates with people I did not find physically attractive in the hope there would be some other quality which attracted me to them, this never happened so after that I decided that unless the person is physically attractive I am not particularly interested.

[bene]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

At what point does one decide "this is the best deal"?

Love.

And it’s not really a “deal” at all.

[Weezy1973]

On 11/15/2021 at 2:21 AM, ZA Dater said:

Ok, why must men put in all the effort?

Women make more effort to look good. Way more effort than men. That is the effort to attract as many high quality men as possible. And it's a lot. Most women won't acknowledge the near obsession they have to trying to look good. Younger women even more so, but it doesn't really go away with age. My 75 year old mother still is very concerned about looking good. The only time men put in the most effort is in the early stages of dating. They're the ones that do the asking, pay for the dates etc. They "court" the women they're interested in. The risk of  in the early stages is minimal. Maybe you'll pay for a date that doesn't work out. Or you'll ask someone out that isn't interested in you. Very small price to pay (even though in your mind it's a huge price - another example of flawed thinking on your part). Once the early stages of dating end, things even out again.

 

On 11/15/2021 at 2:21 AM, ZA Dater said:

Why subtly?

Women are usually subtle in expressing interest because women for the most part are focused on getting into a relationship, whereas men can be focused on both getting into a relationship and casual sex. If a women is bold in her interest, often men can take that as easy sex, which because of differential mating strategies between men and women a man will take. So women who want relationships will be more subtle and look for a man that is willing to invest in her by taking the risk of asking her out, paying for dates, waiting some time before having sex etc. Of course these are generalities and there are always exceptions.

 

On 11/15/2021 at 2:21 AM, ZA Dater said:

The bold is interesting because I have tried to play this scenario out before in my mind but the reality is its such a remote possibility...

I'm pretty confident that you wouldn't be able to do anything in the case of a woman you're attracted to also being attracted to you. You've let us know your thoughts about believing there's always a better catch out there so why would she want you enough times to know how this would go. Again your thoughts / beliefs would let you down. Therapy works.

[Weezy1973]

On 11/15/2021 at 2:03 AM, ZA Dater said:

Frankly the entire "idea" to me is one based on competing. Anyone care to disprove that? Its a competition until you apparently find that connection, I do not disagree with this but if like me you simply do not ever find that it then dating does become about the tangible things, the things which are based on competing and I will admit its tiring to get onto this particular roller coaster.

That's because you've never felt a connection. I don't think that's even relegated to the romantic realm. Do you have any friends? Have you ever? Do you feel connected to your family in any way? Is there anybody in the world that you feel "gets you" and that you "get"? I'm guessing the answer is no. And that's your blocker. If the only thing you care about is dating the most objectively attractive woman you can, you're never going to succeed. Hence you haven't succeeded.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Weezy1973
Spelling

[Foxhall]

thats an interesting point by @weezy,

Id be surprised all the same if you have no friends,

I think you certainly like your own company but I imagine are engaging enough with people at the same time.

Your searching in the wrong areas- your not a guy who is comfortable sitting in a bar watching rugby and then hitting on some of the ladies, yet I imagine you tend to put yourself in that situation for the sake of joining up with your comrades.

also your choices on the dating sites seem to be very "mainstream" that all other single guys are looking at.

You were dismissive before of hiking groups but your likely to meet more compatible women at that type of activity, and you like the outdoors

educated thoughtful types. you mentioned previously connection with a yoga instructor,

I struggled for a long time with shyness, the girlfriend I met has shy people in her family so she understood that condition,

As above you have not been lucky enough yet to meet a lady who "gets you"

I think broadening your search, giving hiking groups a chance, perhaps history studies groups, look at different options.

[ZA Dater]

19 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

That's because you've never felt a connection. I don't think that's even relegated to the romantic realm. Do you have any friends? Have you ever? Do you feel connected to your family in any way? Is there anybody in the world that you feel "gets you" and that you "get"? I'm guessing the answer is no. And that's your blocker. If the only thing you care about is dating the most objectively attractive woman you can, you're never going to succeed. Hence you haven't succeeded.

I have a few friends, not many, even growing up that was the case, my interests saw to that. For me connection is defined by how much I enjoy someones company, K is a good example of that, I did not know her from a bar of soap and sat chatting with her for 4 hours over a very extended lunch, the same is still true today, everything is very easy with her, I do not need to keep the conversation going, it just naturally flows. The same was true with A and perhaps a three others I can recall, maybe flowing conversation is not very important but it is to me, especially if I can open up and we can just talk about anything. People I find attractive tend to make me feel something intangible.

I felt those people do get me and that is reflected in the warm way they interact with me. It would be true that a lot of people do not "get" me for a laundry list of reasons but mostly I think because I put no effort into conforming, being brave enough to follow the road less travelled gets one respect but it does not make one attractive, in my experience at least. 

 

[ZA Dater]

20 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Women make more effort to look good. Way more effort than men. That is the effort to attract as many high quality men as possible. And it's a lot. Most women won't acknowledge the near obsession they have to trying to look good. Younger women even more so, but it doesn't really go away with age. My 75 year old mother still is very concerned about looking good. The only time men put in the most effort is in the early stages of dating. They're the ones that do the asking, pay for the dates etc. They "court" the women they're interested in. The risk of  in the early stages is minimal. Maybe you'll pay for a date that doesn't work out. Or you'll ask someone out that isn't interested in you. Very small price to pay (even though in your mind it's a huge price - another example of flawed thinking on your part). Once the early stages of dating end, things even out again.

 

Women are usually subtle in expressing interest because women for the most part are focused on getting into a relationship, whereas men can be focused on both getting into a relationship and casual sex. If a women is bold in her interest, often men can take that as easy sex, which because of differential mating strategies between men and women a man will take. So women who want relationships will be more subtle and look for a man that is willing to invest in her by taking the risk of asking her out, paying for dates, waiting some time before having sex etc. Of course these are generalities and there are always exceptions.

 

I'm pretty confident that you wouldn't be able to do anything in the case of a woman you're attracted to also being attracted to you. You've let us know your thoughts about believing there's always a better catch out there so why would she want you enough times to know how this would go. Again your thoughts / beliefs would let you down. Therapy works.

You and I have a different interpretation of risk, me I weigh up my chances and unless I can actually see some objective chance of success I frankly cant be bothered and the crucial thing here is how much competition and who sort of competition. Its why I can sit next to a stunning lady who is single at a function and not even bother because I know I have lost before I even start, this is not being defeatist its being realistic, just about the only acceptable platform I have to work from is "this is me I have never dated" and you and I know that is not going to work, I have tried it and it really does not. Or I can try and spin some wholly false narrative and that does not work because everything that is unattractive about me is very obvious.

I do not see any point anymore of investing in people who are simply going to reject me, what is the purpose in that?  If nothing else I'd rather invest my time in simply being kind for no other reason than being kind that investing my time trying to make myself find some attractive who I do not find attractive. 

No I would not know what to do with them simply because I have no experience and about the time I admit that it will be a proper Cinderella moment in reverse and the spectre of flat out rejection will arrive swiftly. 

Your world is a kinder one, mine is harsh, unforgiving and its mostly pretty cold too. I go to a party, there are various ladies, most not single, those who are, care to guess how much attention I get: none but its expected and I just accept it. I left many a party like that early and sure its not fantastic but I have to believe in the good parts of me rather than what other deem unattractive and worthless.

[ZA Dater]

8 hours ago, Foxhall said:

thats an interesting point by @weezy,

Id be surprised all the same if you have no friends,

I think you certainly like your own company but I imagine are engaging enough with people at the same time.

Your searching in the wrong areas- your not a guy who is comfortable sitting in a bar watching rugby and then hitting on some of the ladies, yet I imagine you tend to put yourself in that situation for the sake of joining up with your comrades.

also your choices on the dating sites seem to be very "mainstream" that all other single guys are looking at.

You were dismissive before of hiking groups but your likely to meet more compatible women at that type of activity, and you like the outdoors

educated thoughtful types. you mentioned previously connection with a yoga instructor,

I struggled for a long time with shyness, the girlfriend I met has shy people in her family so she understood that condition,

As above you have not been lucky enough yet to meet a lady who "gets you"

I think broadening your search, giving hiking groups a chance, perhaps history studies groups, look at different options.

There are few people close to me, its not like I get a call "lets go for pizza or lets try this place or lets go see this", that is not part of my world. I used to do as you say and honestly I really do not enjoy watching sport most of the time and rugby especially not. One lesson I learnt is to be strong enough to stop putting myself in situations where I did not fit in, I gain nothing putting myself in them so why do so. 

For the sake of a few friends I do have from time to time I will go to those sorts of things but inevitably it once again become about Chad trying to pick up whoever, I remember one year I rather stupidly made conversation with a bar lady at one of these private events and we actually could have a decent conversation, I was about to actually try get her number when well Chad walks over and it like moth to a flame, I went home and he took her home. 

[bene]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

mostly I think because I put no effort into conforming, being brave enough to follow the road less travelled gets one respect but it does not make one attractive, in my experience at least. 

For a non-conformist you are putting a lot of weight on other people. All these musings how you compare to Chads, how you would impress everyone with your hypothetical girlfriend and suddenly be lifted to another level in their eyes are not from someone who doesn’t care what other people think.

And it’s ok, we are all social creatures. It just seems to be another lie you keep telling yourself about your lack of success. A lie that becomes another obstacle in your way.

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

remember one year I rather stupidly made conversation with a bar lady at one of these private events and we actually could have a decent conversation, I was about to actually try get her number when well Chad walks over and it like moth to a flame, I went home and he took her home. 

You were just too slow,
He who hesitates is lost...
OR "Chad" was her bf.

[ZA Dater]

12 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

You were just too slow,
He who hesitates is lost...
OR "Chad" was her bf.

Lesson learnt, I simply do not bother with interactions like that. No Chad with better looking with a fatter wallet and charm. The reality is the absolute best I can hope for is some good conversation every few years.

[ZA Dater]

21 minutes ago, bene said:

For a non-conformist you are putting a lot of weight on other people. All these musings how you compare to Chads, how you would impress everyone with your hypothetical girlfriend and suddenly be lifted to another level in their eyes are not from someone who doesn’t care what other people think.

And it’s ok, we are all social creatures. It just seems to be another lie you keep telling yourself about your lack of success. A lie that becomes another obstacle in your way.

No weight on others at all. I could not care less for the opinions of others as to who I date but I simply will not date someone I do not find attractive, telling me "well give her a chance she might be really great, no, I once read that a guy has 30 min on a date, during that time a women will decide if she will sleep with him. Yet I must give people date after date and even then force myself to find them attractive. 

My lack of success is purely due to a lack of attraction and any sort of attribute at all that the people I like may find attractive, I cant sell what people do not want to buy irrespective how good I think the product may be...I can in my own mind question why people date who they do and in some way I know I am trying to do the seemingly impossible and that's a lot more appealing to me than settling for what may be possible but unattractive. 

You can argue that is wrong and maybe it is but there are people out there I find attractive and maybe I'd rather just aspire to something I want than settle for something I do not.

 

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

a lot of people do not "get" me for a laundry list of reasons but mostly I think because I put no effort into conforming, being brave enough to follow the road less travelled gets one respect but it does not make one attractive, in my experience at least. 

You seem to be very proud of the fact that you don't conform and seem to think others are in awe of you for that...
Believe me they probably aren't. You are just making yourself seem more awkward and weird and unapproachable.
How can you ever fit in if you are always deliberately setting yourself apart, and not in a good way.
I suggest you stop the rebellion against the world and start to get your head in gear.
The only women you will attract  with that nonsense are those who also do not conform and that would be great if you were attracted to those non conformist types,
BUT  your taste in women is straight down the line, so you had better start trying to conform to societal norms before you get too old and it is all too late.

 

[elaine567]

14 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Lesson learnt, I simply do not bother with interactions like that. 

What kind of an attitude is that?
A nice conversation with a barmaid, every few years...!!!
You could have a nice conversation with a barmaid every evening if you wanted to do that... if you made a bit of an effort...

[dramafreezone]

27 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

No weight on others at all. I could not care less for the opinions of others as to who I date but I simply will not date someone I do not find attractive, telling me "well give her a chance she might be really great, no, I once read that a guy has 30 min on a date, during that time a women will decide if she will sleep with him. Yet I must give people date after date and even then force myself to find them attractive. 

My lack of success is purely due to a lack of attraction and any sort of attribute at all that the people I like may find attractive, I cant sell what people do not want to buy irrespective how good I think the product may be...I can in my own mind question why people date who they do and in some way I know I am trying to do the seemingly impossible and that's a lot more appealing to me than settling for what may be possible but unattractive. 

You can argue that is wrong and maybe it is but there are people out there I find attractive and maybe I'd rather just aspire to something I want than settle for something I do not.

You can sell being fit.  You can sell dressing well.  You can sell excelling at your profession.  The vast majority of women are attracted to those, and these are in your control as I don't believe you are physically handicapped.  If you are not actively and consistently either maintaining or building on all of those, then you can't say you're putting forth your best effort.

What is it that you think women want, if it's none of what I mentioned above?

Women actually like non-conformists, but these non-conformists have to have qualities that they want in themselves.  In fact, we generally look up to and are attracted to others that have qualities that we wish to have in ourselves.  What is it about yourself that you think others wish to emulate in themselves?  Once you figure that out, that's what you need to build upon, amplify.

Edited November 17, 2021 by dramafreezone

[ZA Dater]

58 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

You seem to be very proud of the fact that you don't conform and seem to think others are in awe of you for that...
Believe me they probably aren't. You are just making yourself seem more awkward and weird and unapproachable.
How can you ever fit in if you are always deliberately setting yourself apart, and not in a good way.
I suggest you stop the rebellion against the world and start to get your head in gear.
The only women you will attract  with that nonsense are those who also do not conform and that would be great if you were attracted to those non conformist types,
BUT  your taste in women is straight down the line, so you had better start trying to conform to societal norms before you get too old and it is all too late.

 

It's already too late. I can't talk away zero experience and that's a deal killer for most.

I cannot see any scenario where that would be acceptable. Pretty much the best I can do dating wise is live vicariously. At least some people get it right.

My feel good is really just going out each day and trying to be the best I can. 

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

You and I have a different interpretation of risk, me I weigh up my chances and unless I can actually see some objective chance of success

What would an objective chance of success look like to you?

[ZA Dater]

58 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

What kind of an attitude is that?
A nice conversation with a barmaid, every few years...!!!
You could have a nice conversation with a barmaid every evening if you wanted to do that... if you made a bit of an effort...

Not interested, I don't work in that environment.