Catfish

[Weezy1973]

19 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

there is nothing I do where I see the same people over and over who are actually single. I do not know ONE single person I would date. Not ONE. Every single person I know is in a relationship/married.

So do some different things. If what you’re doing doesn’t work, do something different. Makes sense doesn’t it?

[ZA Dater]

On 11/20/2021 at 1:45 PM, bene said:

Because this environment is toxic for you and they hold far too much power over your outlook on life. You are taking them way too seriously. 

It just struck me that I have actually worked in an environment that has guys like your player business associates. Think of something like an investment firm that has cocky stock brokers, lawyers, accountants, administrative staff etc, many roles that draw a different type of personality. Anyway, these cocky stock broker types were probably something like your player “friends”. Their antics were somewhat annoying, somewhat amusing. Some older family men looked at them like “eh, kids these days”. They were not some kind of gods to be admired, just a certain type of guys in a certain age. As a woman I knew that I’m not attracted to this type. Yes, they were fun to be around in office parties but that was that. 

What I’m trying to say is that you have painted yourself in the corner insisting that one narrow segment of people is proof of how life works. This tunnel vision is why you would benefit from interacting with other types of people, like join a hiking club or whatever has been suggested here. Change of perspective is always beneficial.

I do not disagree with this. The 'problem" is lets for arguments sake I decide to adopt this thinking "well you are as good a catch as ABC", its fanciful to actually try this but it ignores reality because when I actually do try the results remain the same so different thinking is not changing the core result. 

I do not approve this player lifestyle but equally it becomes annoying when I hear women going on about how so and so slept with her and then disappeared, honestly what did she expect to happen. My outlook is completely different from the player outlook or it was when I thought everyone had an equal chance, I chased the wholesome relationships that get spoken about many times here, guess what it was frankly impossible to find someone I found attractive overall and when I did they always went for the player.

The sad reality I have learnt there is actually no point being a gentleman, those old school values have zero value in today's society, apparently. 

On the flip side of this there are the women, who irrespective how nice I am, simply do not give me the time of the day but have all the time in the world to lap up whatever nonsense is being being offered up by said player with tons of false charm. 

A hiking club, that gets me 45+yo single mothers and with respect I am really not interested. 

I want to believe you and others, I really do but no matter how hard I try look for what you are telling me I am simply not seeing it at all.

 

[ZA Dater]

On 11/20/2021 at 2:37 AM, dramafreezone said:

Most guys find models physically attractive.  What else do you like about them to where you're drawn to them so much to the exclusion of other women?

For me it is less about physically attractive as it is about the simply fact they are very people orientated, almost all I have met can sit and have a good conversation, compare that with the accountant at the kitchen cupboard company I went on a date with, there was no conversation to really be had there. Models by what they do are very in tune of the feelings of others, you have someone look at you and you get pretty good at reading body language. They read me with all the issues I have and all have been far friendlier than aforementioned accounts and again they have confidence, some of this is faked but they still have it. Kindness goes a long way with me and yes they can probably see how damaged I am but that did not stop them for being kind, again compare that to the cold dates I generally have.

I always like the feeling I am the person important in that conversation, again with dates I never really get this because the person is hardly talking and I need to try and extract conversation.

Yes they are not dating me but the fact remains if I think back I can smile at those interactions whereas I would need to think a long time to when I had a genuinely nice date. Everyone on this planet has their own issues, nobody is faultless.

[elaine567]

25 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Yes they are not dating me

...and that makes all the difference.
They can be nice and kind to you as the boundaries are already drawn.
Women who are dating you and are not interested will show or emphasise their disinterest, else you misinterpret their friendliness as interest.
Women learn early that encouraging guys they have no interest in, can lead to trouble, so better to  make it perfectly plain they have no interest
I think this unfriendliness is probably something that OLD has promoted too.
As all are strangers it is possible to be pretty rude to the person sitting in front of you to hammer the point home.

Edited November 21, 2021 by elaine567

[dramafreezone]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The sad reality I have learnt there is actually no point being a gentleman, those old school values have zero value in today's society, apparently. 

 

Well you're sad because you think being a gentleman should be rewarded, so it's a transactional thing for you.  You did all of this opening doors for people, laying your jacket over puddles, or being a "nice guy" and you didn't get what you wanted.  If you were a gentleman simply because it was your true nature you wouldn't be sad about anything.

[Veronica73]

41 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

Well you're sad because you think being a gentleman should be rewarded, so it's a transactional thing for you.  You did all of this opening doors for people, laying your jacket over puddles, or being a "nice guy" and you didn't get what you wanted.  If you were a gentleman simply because it was your true nature you wouldn't be sad about anything.

I think there is a lot of truth in this. It’s kind of like that social experiment where people looked at whether people returned their grocery carts, or just left them wherever in the parking lot. (I don’t know if this was an actual social experiment or just some anecdotal thing.) But basically it said that there are people who will return the cart when people are watching, but won’t return the cart when nobody is around to see what they do. There are people who will return the cart no matter if anyone else is around or not. And there are people who don’t give a crap and don’t bother returning the cart at all. Behaving like a gentleman so it can get you something is like being like the person who will return the grocery cart if people are around, but if nobody is around to see, they leave the cart wherever in the parking lot.

edit: Like it isn’t in your character. You’re just acting in a way to get what you want.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Veronica73

[dramafreezone]

On 11/21/2021 at 5:15 PM, Veronica73 said:

I think there is a lot of truth in this. It’s kind of like that social experiment where people looked at whether people returned their grocery carts, or just left them wherever in the parking lot. (I don’t know if this was an actual social experiment or just some anecdotal thing.) But basically it said that there are people who will return the cart when people are watching, but won’t return the cart when nobody is around to see what they do. There are people who will return the cart no matter if anyone else is around or not. And there are people who don’t give a crap and don’t bother returning the cart at all. Behaving like a gentleman so it can get you something is like being like the person who will return the grocery cart if people are around, but if nobody is around to see, they leave the cart wherever in the parking lot.

edit: Like it isn’t in your character. You’re just acting in a way to get what you want.

It takes one to know one.  I can see it in the OP because I used to be a fake gentleman as well.  I would see others do whatever they do to attract women and would scoff, and say I'm going to do it the "right way."  In a way I thought I was going to cheat the system.  A small part of me is a gentleman, but other than that I'm pretty much like every other guy.  OP needs to just realize that he's not special, he has to do the same things that the rest of us do.

[ZA Dater]

10 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

It takes one to know one.  I can see it in the OP because I used to be a fake gentleman as well.  I would see others do whatever they do to attract women and would scoff, and say I'm going to do it the "right way."  In a way I thought I was going to cheat the system.  A small part of me is a gentleman, but other than that I'm pretty much like every other guy.  OP needs to just realize that he's not special, he has to do the same things that the rest of us do.

If that includes openly deceiving people and trying to be someone I am not in the hope that miss so and so may find me attractive then count me out, I'll keeping opening those doors thanks. 

Yeah people keep going on about this supposed system and I guess its all good and well if you choose to conform with it, I have no really want to do that and never have. If she likes me she will communicate that clearly, if not well simply just move on.

[ZA Dater]

On 11/21/2021 at 10:12 PM, elaine567 said:

...and that makes all the difference.
They can be nice and kind to you as the boundaries are already drawn.
Women who are dating you and are not interested will show or emphasise their disinterest, else you misinterpret their friendliness as interest.
Women learn early that encouraging guys they have no interest in, can lead to trouble, so better to  make it perfectly plain they have no interest
I think this unfriendliness is probably something that OLD has promoted too.
As all are strangers it is possible to be pretty rude to the person sitting in front of you to hammer the point home.

I never said I was unhappy with those limitations, it is what it is but pretending that everyone has the same opportunities is just ridiculous, you nor me can decide what people find attractive, you nor I can say people do not find superficial traits attractive because the world suggests otherwise. People can wax lyrical about supposed connection, sure it might exist it might not but I just find it odd really that every time I get rejected its never for people who have less but always for people who have more. Odd that.

I can choose to take the good out of each day and park the bad. Which means more often than not I am parking anything to do with dating.

[ZA Dater]

On 11/22/2021 at 2:38 AM, dramafreezone said:

Well you're sad because you think being a gentleman should be rewarded, so it's a transactional thing for you.  You did all of this opening doors for people, laying your jacket over puddles, or being a "nice guy" and you didn't get what you wanted.  If you were a gentleman simply because it was your true nature you wouldn't be sad about anything.

I am not sad, its a figure of speech, I am not looking for any brownie points but it would seem sleeping around, cheating, manipulating and openly deceiving are far more attractive traits that opening doors. I know people who do all of the above and they are never shorts of one night wonders/dates so clearly those traits are seen as desirable or perhaps status means these men never lack dates irrespective what they do. 

 

[dramafreezone]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

If that includes openly deceiving people and trying to be someone I am not in the hope that miss so and so may find me attractive then count me out, I'll keeping opening those doors thanks. 

Yeah people keep going on about this supposed system and I guess its all good and well if you choose to conform with it, I have no really want to do that and never have. If she likes me she will communicate that clearly, if not well simply just move on.

But it's the same thing.  You deceive too, just a different tactic.  When you're a gentleman and expect something in return as opposed to just being a true gentleman with no expectation of reward for it, then that's deception.  You're just resentful that other guys are deceiving more effectively than you are.

Edited November 25, 2021 by dramafreezone

[elaine567]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

People can wax lyrical about supposed connection, sure it might exist it might not but I just find it odd really that every time I get rejected its never for people who have less but always for people who have more. Odd that.

Because given a choice most will go for the "better" option. 
The problem you have is with no other choice in the pipeline you will always plump for "better" anyway...
"Better" do not view you as "better", so you are thus out of sync.
You are pitching at girls who do not see you as "all that", so you go home alone and they go and find a better option.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

Because given a choice most will go for the "better" option. 
The problem you have is with no other choice in the pipeline you will always plump for "better" anyway...
"Better" do not view you as "better", so you are thus out of sync.
You are pitching at girls who do not see you as "all that", so you go home alone and they go and find a better option.

Again the point is is connection is the be all and end all one would then think that anyone would connect, you'd see people really fit guys with really unfit ladies and vice versa yet this seems to be the exception rather than the norm, so again how important really is that connection or is it simply a matter of "more" equals better connection...

The odd thing is I cannot recall the last time someone said to me "he has a a great personality" or "she is really smart and great to talk to" its always the superficial things I get told, I wonder why this is if they are no important and connection is more important.

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by ZA Dater

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, dramafreezone said:

But it's the same thing.  You deceive too, just a different tactic.  When you're a gentleman and expect something in return as opposed to just being a true gentleman with no expectation of reward for it, then that's deception.  You're just resentful that other guys are deceiving more effectively than you are.

I do those things irrespective whether I find the person attractive or not, that is largely irrelevant to me. They apparently have no value to people but there is no reason why I should not do them, I expect nothing in return at all, much like when I pay for dinner I do not expect anything either. 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

The odd thing is I cannot recall the last time someone said to me "he has a a great personality" or "she is really smart and great to talk to" its always the superficial things I get told, I wonder why this is if they are no important and connection is more important.

 

I guarantee if you asked my wife what attracted her she would say I was smart and funny. And now she would likely talk about how dedicated a father and husband I am. She would not mention good looks nor wealth, because frankly I don’t possess either of those things. 
 

The reason you can’t recall people talking about those traits is because you don’t hang around with anybody with depth. And you aren’t particularly attracted to depth either.

[dramafreezone]

 

8 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Again the point is is connection is the be all and end all one would then think that anyone would connect, you'd see people really fit guys with really unfit ladies and vice versa yet this seems to be the exception rather than the norm, so again how important really is that connection or is it simply a matter of "more" equals better connection...

The odd thing is I cannot recall the last time someone said to me "he has a a great personality" or "she is really smart and great to talk to" its always the superficial things I get told, I wonder why this is if they are no important and connection is more important.

 

You see fit guys with fit women because they share values, habits, common hobbies.

I used to see actresses and wonder why they married other actors and TV show producers and movie directors, like why don't they give normal guys a shot?  Because they share common ground with those actors, directors, producers.  They cannot relate to a guy that has to go work a 9-to-5, it wouldn't work out.

That's so ironic that you said you're only attracted to models or women that look like models, yet you wish that your personality was seen as attractive.  Their very existence is all about the superficial.  They are hyper-aware of their looks and go to great lengths to enhance it.  Yet you think you shouldn't have to meet that same standard to be compatible with them.   You want maximum reward with minimal effort.

Edited November 26, 2021 by dramafreezone

[bene]

16 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The odd thing is I cannot recall the last time someone said to me "he has a a great personality" or "she is really smart and great to talk to" its always the superficial things I get told, I wonder why this is if they are no important and connection is more important.

Well, you are either as shallow as them or you have conformed to these people so much that you have internalised their superficial ways.

When I think of the people I know, of course they would characterize their significant other as “funny”, “easy to talk to”, “reliable” or “a gentleman” among other things. I don’t know anyone in our age who would only settle for looks. Our eyes get used to good looks, you will soon miss something more substantial (and I’m not saying that it’s impossible to be beautiful and have depth at the same time). You will discover that people only have sex for a fraction of time and there are countless hours to fill with something else in a relationship. To think that people can live together for years, raise kids together and grow old without a connection is ridiculous. There is life after first dates, you are just too fixated to see it.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, bene said:

Well, you are either as shallow as them or you have conformed to these people so much that you have internalised their superficial ways.

When I think of the people I know, of course they would characterize their significant other as “funny”, “easy to talk to”, “reliable” or “a gentleman” among other things. I don’t know anyone in our age who would only settle for looks. Our eyes get used to good looks, you will soon miss something more substantial (and I’m not saying that it’s impossible to be beautiful and have depth at the same time). You will discover that people only have sex for a fraction of time and there are countless hours to fill with something else in a relationship. To think that people can live together for years, raise kids together and grow old without a connection is ridiculous. There is life after first dates, you are just too fixated to see it.

I used to believe in the connection you all say exists but after years of actually trying to find this I simply conceded it was relatively easier to actually look for something that actually does exists, i.e. physical attraction. 

Most of the people I find attractive have both qualities, otherwise I would not find them attractive. These past few weeks have been very lonely, I had one date which really was more like a business meeting than a date, there is just nothing there, here and I can talk but there just no particular want on my part to spend time with her. 

I have chatted to a few people through OLD these last few weeks, wide age ranges too but none of them really do it for me, its just hard work to communicate with these people because there is no work put on from their side to actually make the conversation flow.

Then I decided to go back to the arrangement idea but this does not work either because what is offered is not really what I actually want so what I really have are a lot of contacts with people who really do not meet any sort of criteria and for whom I feel absolutely nothing.

At least when I cat fished people actually showed some enthusiasm for me instead of me having to put in all the work.

 

[ZA Dater]

11 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

 

You see fit guys with fit women because they share values, habits, common hobbies.

I used to see actresses and wonder why they married other actors and TV show producers and movie directors, like why don't they give normal guys a shot?  Because they share common ground with those actors, directors, producers.  They cannot relate to a guy that has to go work a 9-to-5, it wouldn't work out.

That's so ironic that you said you're only attracted to models or women that look like models, yet you wish that your personality was seen as attractive.  Their very existence is all about the superficial.  They are hyper-aware of their looks and go to great lengths to enhance it.  Yet you think you shouldn't have to meet that same standard to be compatible with them.   You want maximum reward with minimal effort.

Really I beg to differ, the guys I know 45+ with 24-30yo GF's its never about any of those things its about pure superficial and nothing else. There was someone I tried to date, she is 22yo, she was not interested, I follow her on social media, she is now dating a 45yo+, going to fancy events, fancy holidays, sure its about connection? I doubt it.

I would not differ if I was a runner or a cyclist, she'd still go for the guy with the most irrespective of connection, there is NOT one SINGLE example I can think of relating to people I know where she went for anything but the guy with the most. It just is what it is, I need to deal with it but to pretend it does not exist...not sure about that.

No I am attracted to people who look after themselves, to use a broad term, they do not need to be models, just to clarify.

Phff....9-5, 9-9 is where its at

[dramafreezone]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Really I beg to differ, the guys I know 45+ with 24-30yo GF's its never about any of those things its about pure superficial and nothing else. There was someone I tried to date, she is 22yo, she was not interested, I follow her on social media, she is now dating a 45yo+, going to fancy events, fancy holidays, sure its about connection? I doubt it.

 

Both are getting what they want out of the deal.  She gets to go to fancy events, and he gets to have a pretty woman on her arm.  Seems like a fair exchange to me.  In that sense there is a connection because both are very aware of why the other is here and they know what they have to do to hold up their end of the bargain.  Neither one is under the illusion that they are there for the other person's personality.

You think that a woman should want you for you, when that's not the case for anyone.  It's about what you can do for her.  Guys (including you) are the same way though, you want a woman because of what she can do for you.  That's why you have to have a woman that looks very attractive, because you think that would validate your own worth.  You see ok looking women and an ok looking woman just would not measure up to what your friends have, hence you're not attracted to them.

[Weezy1973]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I used to believe in the connection you all say exists but after years of actually trying to find this I simply conceded it was relatively easier to actually look for something that actually does exists, i.e. physical attraction. 

 

The connection we talk about does exist of course, but without physical attraction it’s just friendship. But - and here’s the part you struggle with - the physical attraction doesn’t have to be off the charts “wow” to start. For most of us even a moderate or neutral initial level of attraction can turn into a “wow” when there’s a connection. 

[Veronica73]

Can someone catch me up? I can’t go through this whole thing. Has anything changed from a year (plus?) ago? And developments? Za…you seem to not have all that many problems getting a first date. So I would guess surface-level things like your own appearance aren’t the problem. (I feel like you used to think that your looks was a big part of the problem.) or is it same old same old?

[dramafreezone]

19 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

The connection we talk about does exist of course, but without physical attraction it’s just friendship. But - and here’s the part you struggle with - the physical attraction doesn’t have to be off the charts “wow” to start. For most of us even a moderate or neutral initial level of attraction can turn into a “wow” when there’s a connection. 

I think just making a consistent effort goes a long way.    Do the best with what you have.  OP thinks there will always be someone better looking so why try?

[ZA Dater]

19 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

The connection we talk about does exist of course, but without physical attraction it’s just friendship. But - and here’s the part you struggle with - the physical attraction doesn’t have to be off the charts “wow” to start. For most of us even a moderate or neutral initial level of attraction can turn into a “wow” when there’s a connection. 

I agree, K is a good example of that, she is not model like at all but a wow personality and being able to converse can make up for a lot, unfortunately when there is no physical attraction and no wow personality for me it's pointless even entertaining the idea of dating the person.

The reality is there needs to be something that really grabs me about a particular person.

 

[Weezy1973]

12 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The reality is there needs to be something that really grabs me about a particular person.

OK, but the “something” can be the connection you two share. It doesn’t have to be particular personality traits necessarily. So a “wow” connection, that can develop over time.