Catfish

[Trail Blazer]

It's odd that she's offered such compliments so soon.  I would be very suspicious myself if I were you.

Having said that, stop with the BS of being too busy.  Go with an open mind to the date and see what comes of it.

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

It's odd that she's offered such compliments so soon.  I would be very suspicious myself if I were you.

Having said that, stop with the BS of being too busy.  Go with an open mind to the date and see what comes of it.

I have backed off communication a bit, will I regret it? Maybe yes and maybe not.

In some respects a lot of this gets easier, now that I know that somewhere people I find attractive do find me attractive it makes walking away from supposed opportunities like this much easier. Fate would just have it I do not live in the country where seemingly those attractive people can be found, nevertheless at least I do not need to walk around feeling unattractive.

[ZA Dater]

Thanks to the forum members. I went away and took stock of life and realized that in some respects I have scratched my dating itch for the time being. Looking at it I am not sure dating someone would actually improve my life, especially if there was no "wow" in it for me, I'd be inviting complication for no apparent upside.  I have re read much of the advice and its true and correct.

My own problem is the need to reach a point where I know "this is the absolute best I can do" the inherent problem is the air is so thin up there that the best I can hope for are fleeting moments of looking out over the best view imaginable. After that spending time on the lower slopes does not hold much allure, its this point of view that made me question, perhaps wrongly how people settle, I get it, people date who they find attractive and who finds them attractive, in my view more slanted toward the latter than the former. Me, the idea for me at dating is to date the most impossible/challenging/unlikely scenario I can find because there I find someone I find really attractive overall and I know I am unlikely to do better. 

Yes, believe it or not there are people who will date me, not many mind, who are OK looking but nothing about them wows me to any degree. For me I'd rather forgo the entire idea if I cant find that wow. 

I think we all need company but maybe some of us need less of it?

I have few fears, never being able to experience what I want to experience is one of them but that being said, maybe I have experienced exactly what I wanted to experience at dating? I have been lucky to be around people who made me feel really good, really filled that huge gap I have most of the time. Maybe it was not a total waste of time.

 

 

[Miss Spider]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

 

I think we all need company but maybe some of us need less of it?

 

 

 

For sure. I’ve realized I cant really be my best self in a relationship. For others, it’s the opposite. As for having your itch scratched, imo it will eventually creep back up so enjoy the break while it lasts. No one who puts as much thought into dating as you do is okay with not dating forever/ jmo 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[ZA Dater]

17 hours ago, Cookiesandough said:

For sure. I’ve realized I cant really be my best self in a relationship. For others, it’s the opposite. As for having your itch scratched, imo it will eventually creep back up so enjoy the break while it lasts. No one who puts as much thought into dating as you do is okay with not dating forever/ jmo 

I am trying to just keep my mind occupied and it helps I am super busy with a few projects at the moment. Maybe some people bring out the best in others which helps that whole dynamic a bit. I know the people I have really found attractive, all of them brought out the best parts of me and I sometimes wonder if in part that was why I found them so attractive. 

The only reason I put so much thought into it was because it was something I wanted to experience. 

[Happy Lemming]

On 7/2/2021 at 7:16 AM, ZA Dater said:

I have scratched my dating itch for the time being.

 

I thought you wanted to have sex...

Is that no longer a goal??

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Happy Lemming said:

I thought you wanted to have sex...

Is that no longer a goal??

Sure, problem is its is increasingly unlikely I am ever going to experience mutual attraction never mind sex. Someone asked me the other day "have you ever been in love" and I simply answered "no because those I find attractive never find me attractive but I guess I can love myself". Some of the member here said something like "you need to put yourself out there and be open to an idea",  the truth is I am not out there (COVID prevents that) but in all honesty I am not open to the idea unless its with someone I really like but those people have tons of options all vastly better than me. 

No when it comes to love I'll be that guy who sits and watches a really game but never plays it because he is not good enough, does not mean I cant enjoy sitting on the sidelines and encouraging others to succeed. When I see the warmth my friends get from their partners, that doting, that caring and that sense of really enjoying each others company I do lament I have never experienced that but celebrate I get in some small way to see how good it is.......and at times see how bad it is.

Effectively I have advanced nowhere with love and dating in 20 years, its still the same, the problems are still the same if not worse in some respects and this catfish experiment was a good way to see how good it could be but cannot be. 

This offset by things I am passionate about and do enjoy, for me the best is when I have on occasion got to share these with people I do find attractive, fleeting perfection as I call it. 

A was as good as it will ever get so its hardly surprising anything else since then has very limited appeal. 

 

[ZA Dater]

The reality is if I was able to attract attractive people the idea would have a lot more appeal but lets be hones the only way I can do that is being someone I am not so the entire point of the exercise is lost.

If I was attracting slim athletic people I would be far more enthusiastic about dating, instead I attract everyone I find unattractive and none I do so what is the point really. 

Such is life, as with everything some are just luckier than others.

[ZA Dater]

I thought about meeting up with this person who just thinks I am the best most handsome person around but not sure I see a lot of point if I do not feel the same about her? I am not someone who is won over by gushing compliments.

The problem is when I am less busy I start to look at dating again, its easy for me to see the apparently nice things but should I rather remind myself of everything I do not like about it? I have resorted to trying to narrow down what it is I am really looking for and then see what compliments that and what does not. Would I do a fling, probably unlikely unless I really connected to the person then I ask myself what makes me want to connect with people and then bearing that in mind I look back at the people I really connected with and liked and realized none connected with me.  What I have learnt is its possible to connect intellectually but never in a romantic way, this I realized is one of the issues. I am smart enough to converse well, unattractive enough to never connect romantically and when I think back at these interactions its actually obvious that the latter connection was not there but because I spend so much time alone its very easy to misinterpret someone actually being friendly to someone being interested.

If I go back and look at all the interactions the above is true most of the time barring perhaps 3 times. I think in my own way because this happens every time I try I just render 99% of people being unattractive which just leaves the 1% which 99% of guys are chasing so the odds never work in my favor.

Its also why I tend to be more "useful" than ever really get into the friend zone, K, I only actually see K when we work on a project together, A, well I was useful because there was not anyone else around and I think I got a certain degree of sympathy vote from her and so on and so forth. 

In retrospect the mistake I made was when things were very bad and they have been very bad at various times I just simply shut the book, put absolutely focus into something else and each time I did that a small of "I'd really like to be liked by someone" just disappeared. The counter for this was chasing the 1% and I have always done this, since I was 15 to be honest, it was always about the best looking person, most dynamic, most interesting, in retrospect the guys who never chased this are far better off today because they have the things I do not but on the other hand but with respect to them the people they landed up with have zero appeal for me. Guy I studied with, married with two kids, another one married with four kids, another married with two kids and I look at all these ladies and I try to somehow figure out what was so alluring about them and I simply cannot.

Maybe the part I miss in life is any sort of real emotional feeling, maybe these ladies make those guys feel something, clearly they do, maybe the way they look at people is different to me, I wont lie for me I tend to look at physical appearance, intellect, intelligence and the way they speak and to a lesser extent dress and I then try and fit the person into my life. Each time  got rejected I'd focus elsewhere and remove emotions, it got the stage where I simply want on dates emotionless for the most part because I knew there was nothing for me to get especially enthusiastic about.

Maybe the problem was I have never been too enthusiastic unless its something I absolutely want....

 

[SumGuy]

Have you considered you are trying to go from 0 to 100 in your dating life?   You have never had sex, and never really been with anyone in even a little relationship.  For many the first few "relationships" go no where, they are not entered into with much thinking or expectation...probably because of youth and life stage.

Have you considered even if you don't see this being anything long term, or dreamy, that if you find her attractive it can be physical?  She likes you, finds you attractive and is an adult who can make her own choices.   If you do not make promises why not?  I suspect the first time you have good sex with a woman you are going to be very into her, it has a way of removing self censuring, insecurity and revealing to you just how incredible she really is. 

This is just more evidence you should consider that you dating problems are not your looks.

You can certainly hold out for the woman that blows you mind; to me though you have some subconscious issues holding you back here.  It is more than just preference, and being picky.  To me your level of "pickiness" and how it shifts and morphs to turn done opportunities makes me think it is dysfunctional, not saying the following is you (as such things come in many flavors) but it reminds me of people who gravitate to neurotic and drama filled relationships because others don't have "passion" for them and more healthy interacts seem "flat" the other person "boring" and "not interested."  As longa s people as safe, who am I to judge, but best to be aware of what really drives you especially when the consequences of it are not ones you want.

[CaliforniaGirl]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I thought about meeting up with this person who just thinks I am the best most handsome person around but not sure I see a lot of point if I do not feel the same about her? I am not someone who is won over by gushing compliments.

The problem is when I am less busy I start to look at dating again, its easy for me to see the apparently nice things but should I rather remind myself of everything I do not like about it? I have resorted to trying to narrow down what it is I am really looking for and then see what compliments that and what does not. Would I do a fling, probably unlikely unless I really connected to the person then I ask myself what makes me want to connect with people and then bearing that in mind I look back at the people I really connected with and liked and realized none connected with me.  What I have learnt is its possible to connect intellectually but never in a romantic way, this I realized is one of the issues. I am smart enough to converse well, unattractive enough to never connect romantically and when I think back at these interactions its actually obvious that the latter connection was not there but because I spend so much time alone its very easy to misinterpret someone actually being friendly to someone being interested.

If I go back and look at all the interactions the above is true most of the time barring perhaps 3 times. I think in my own way because this happens every time I try I just render 99% of people being unattractive which just leaves the 1% which 99% of guys are chasing so the odds never work in my favor.

Its also why I tend to be more "useful" than ever really get into the friend zone, K, I only actually see K when we work on a project together, A, well I was useful because there was not anyone else around and I think I got a certain degree of sympathy vote from her and so on and so forth. 

In retrospect the mistake I made was when things were very bad and they have been very bad at various times I just simply shut the book, put absolutely focus into something else and each time I did that a small of "I'd really like to be liked by someone" just disappeared. The counter for this was chasing the 1% and I have always done this, since I was 15 to be honest, it was always about the best looking person, most dynamic, most interesting, in retrospect the guys who never chased this are far better off today because they have the things I do not but on the other hand but with respect to them the people they landed up with have zero appeal for me. Guy I studied with, married with two kids, another one married with four kids, another married with two kids and I look at all these ladies and I try to somehow figure out what was so alluring about them and I simply cannot.

Maybe the part I miss in life is any sort of real emotional feeling, maybe these ladies make those guys feel something, clearly they do, maybe the way they look at people is different to me, I wont lie for me I tend to look at physical appearance, intellect, intelligence and the way they speak and to a lesser extent dress and I then try and fit the person into my life. Each time  got rejected I'd focus elsewhere and remove emotions, it got the stage where I simply want on dates emotionless for the most part because I knew there was nothing for me to get especially enthusiastic about.

Maybe the problem was I have never been too enthusiastic unless its something I absolutely want....

 

I know I've mentioned this to you in the past but my strong vibe is that you definitely don't want a relationship and are running from one. This latest kind of just supports it, IMO. You chase after women with very specific criteria (she must have an athletic body but it has to be specifically an athletic yoga body, etc.), and of course, you don't find that. You catfish, then claim nobody thinks you're handsome when they're shocked and angry that you straight-up lied to them. Now you finally have somebody interested and you claim she's just all kinds of wrong, and in fact your initial early reaction was literally to run from dating altogether, claiming for the moment that maybe you should just take a break (can't remember exactly how you put that) from any dating.

Now that you're able to push this interested woman away a little you're back to the questions-go-round that go nowhere.

You don't want to date anyone, you have some sort of fear of it but you refuse to get outside professional help for it so it is back to 30+-page threads.

This will never change until you address what is REALLY going on.

JMO.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Have you considered you are trying to go from 0 to 100 in your dating life?   You have never had sex, and never really been with anyone in even a little relationship.  For many the first few "relationships" go no where, they are not entered into with much thinking or expectation...probably because of youth and life stage.

Have you considered even if you don't see this being anything long term, or dreamy, that if you find her attractive it can be physical?  She likes you, finds you attractive and is an adult who can make her own choices.   If you do not make promises why not?  I suspect the first time you have good sex with a woman you are going to be very into her, it has a way of removing self censuring, insecurity and revealing to you just how incredible she really is. 

This is just more evidence you should consider that you dating problems are not your looks.

You can certainly hold out for the woman that blows you mind; to me though you have some subconscious issues holding you back here.  It is more than just preference, and being picky.  To me your level of "pickiness" and how it shifts and morphs to turn done opportunities makes me think it is dysfunctional, not saying the following is you (as such things come in many flavors) but it reminds me of people who gravitate to neurotic and drama filled relationships because others don't have "passion" for them and more healthy interacts seem "flat" the other person "boring" and "not interested."  As longa s people as safe, who am I to judge, but best to be aware of what really drives you especially when the consequences of it are not ones you want.

There is some truth here. I friend of mine loves drama filled relationships, he says he does not but I usually end up with a front row seat to this drama and in some respects I get to be the impartial sounding board to hear about these woes. Perhaps what I have not mentioned is I have seen a lot of relationships with people that I know and almost none ever seem to be that great to be honest, again its just drama after drama and issue after issue and in some way I think I simply do not want that so being extra picky means in my mind I can try my best to avoid some of that. 

My looks are an issue, once I put no picture on my profile and ended chatting to someone who did look really great, we chatted well and yes as soon as a picture was shown any good chatting quickly disappeared and you know I get this, it will always put me in a position where I can never really get what I want but what I can do is just a bit less irritated about that, hence my routine on focusing on something I do like when I get that sort of situation.

What has helped is to actually work out what I want and what I do not want so at least that is clearer in my mind. Agreed for many the first few relationships go nowhere but I am not blessed with that luck because people will look at this 37yo guy and expect him to have relationship experience and this becomes impossible to explain away and at worst is a total deal breaker which it often is, sure I can try the fake it but that hardly works because its so blatantly obvious to people that no amount of faking will remove that. 

Intrinsically I look long term at everything so when I meet someone the thing I consider is if I want to spend time with this person and how compatible am I with this person, usually there is a negative to one of those in which case I just switch off and go in focus office mode. 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

I know I've mentioned this to you in the past but my strong vibe is that you definitely don't want a relationship and are running from one. This latest kind of just supports it, IMO. You chase after women with very specific criteria (she must have an athletic body but it has to be specifically an athletic yoga body, etc.), and of course, you don't find that. You catfish, then claim nobody thinks you're handsome when they're shocked and angry that you straight-up lied to them. Now you finally have somebody interested and you claim she's just all kinds of wrong, and in fact your initial early reaction was literally to run from dating altogether, claiming for the moment that maybe you should just take a break (can't remember exactly how you put that) from any dating.

Now that you're able to push this interested woman away a little you're back to the questions-go-round that go nowhere.

You don't want to date anyone, you have some sort of fear of it but you refuse to get outside professional help for it so it is back to 30+-page threads.

This will never change until you address what is REALLY going on.

JMO.

So called outside professional help is actually a wonderful money making scheme because I get nothing of value from it, absolutely nothing at all. Sure, its an hour of debate backward and forwards but I'd rather not bother to pay for that, I can phone a friend and get exactly the same. 

Am I running from one, yes I am because the last thing I want is to get jammed into spending time with someone who does not interest me and worse yet still have to reject someone who does like me, I have had to do that before and its very unpleasant and not something I feel good at doing. I am fine with being rejected but leading someone one is not something I want to do. 

Sure catfish was not one of my better ideas but it has proven the absolute importance of looks over any sort of interaction, the lie is actually pretty small in the overall picture, I had some fantastic conversation I would never normally have had. 

That is the comfort I do have, those good conversations again I had someone I really had no interest in falling all over me and trying to woo me, really did not impress me at all and I felt nothing. Chatting to someone really attractive, smart, motivated, interesting, forthright, yeah that impressed me but I had to use a fake picture to get that. That is the point really, what I like is possible in theory but not in reality. 

I am working on me and yes these odd "wow he is really great" matches are alright they never move me enough beyond putting my toe in the water because I just know there is not enough upside for me to dive into the water and actually try and because to be honest nobody really likes me, I find it very odd when someone does, especially as there are much much better choices out there. 

You are wrong I will date people where I can invest fully with an upside life gain for me but those people have better fish to chase than me so I left largely with people I see no point in making an investment because the reality is my life will not be enhanced in any way at all.  I have had opportunities go get laid, perhaps four of those times were with people I really found attractive and yes to some extent fear put me off, shyness put me off but what mostly put me off is I did not feel comfortable with the person or I simply misread the entire situation and only realised later. 

PS the money I would have spent debating has more value at the animal shelter.

[SumGuy]

7 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

...Intrinsically I look long term at everything so when I meet someone the thing I consider is if I want to spend time with this person and how compatible am I with this person, usually there is a negative to one of those in which case I just switch off and go in focus office mode. 

Thinking ahead is not inherently a bad thing, but one can get ahead of oneself.  I'd say take it in steps, is there enough for a date, is there enough for a night together, is there enough for seeign each other again, etc.   In my expereince your knowledge about how they are is very limited until you spend time with them.  There is no substitute.  As one gains more and more relationship experience, you get better at predicting the future, but not much so there is no substitute for meeting, trying in steps.

The simple "trick" is to simply not put yourself in situation (take a step) beyond the information you have, don't go on a weekend away with a person you just met, but having a coffee with them in a public place, sure.  Like you don't go full throttle around a race track you have never driven the first time around, but you don't let that stop you from going around the track; you just work up to greater speed.  

 

You approach of oops see a "negative" then switch off reminds me of the argument in The Republic about how it is not wise to adopt the proposition that is is just to "harm ones enemies and aid ones friends" in part because of our imperfect knowledge.  Similarly in your case, I do not believe you have the experience or bias free observation skills to accurately rely on "negatives" to switch off.  Let alone the idea needs to be binary on-off; it can be on-try-off, and intermediate position where you engage (and yes take a risk) to see what happens. 

 I need "negatives" to be clear and certain before I would switch off.  Not potential ones and certainly in the beginning I give it a chance, let the positives counter the negatives.

[CaliforniaGirl]

7 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

So called outside professional help is actually a wonderful money making scheme because I get nothing of value from it, absolutely nothing at all. Sure, its an hour of debate backward and forwards but I'd rather not bother to pay for that, I can phone a friend and get exactly the same. 

Am I running from one, yes I am because the last thing I want is to get jammed into spending time with someone who does not interest me and worse yet still have to reject someone who does like me, I have had to do that before and its very unpleasant and not something I feel good at doing. I am fine with being rejected but leading someone one is not something I want to do. 

Sure catfish was not one of my better ideas but it has proven the absolute importance of looks over any sort of interaction, the lie is actually pretty small in the overall picture, I had some fantastic conversation I would never normally have had. 

That is the comfort I do have, those good conversations again I had someone I really had no interest in falling all over me and trying to woo me, really did not impress me at all and I felt nothing. Chatting to someone really attractive, smart, motivated, interesting, forthright, yeah that impressed me but I had to use a fake picture to get that. That is the point really, what I like is possible in theory but not in reality. 

I am working on me and yes these odd "wow he is really great" matches are alright they never move me enough beyond putting my toe in the water because I just know there is not enough upside for me to dive into the water and actually try and because to be honest nobody really likes me, I find it very odd when someone does, especially as there are much much better choices out there. 

You are wrong I will date people where I can invest fully with an upside life gain for me but those people have better fish to chase than me so I left largely with people I see no point in making an investment because the reality is my life will not be enhanced in any way at all.  I have had opportunities go get laid, perhaps four of those times were with people I really found attractive and yes to some extent fear put me off, shyness put me off but what mostly put me off is I did not feel comfortable with the person or I simply misread the entire situation and only realised later. 

PS the money I would have spent debating has more value at the animal shelter.

Stop making the same excuses. Figure out whatever this is. You'll be miserable until you do.

[SumGuy]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

So called outside professional help is actually a wonderful money making scheme because I get nothing of value from it, absolutely nothing at all. Sure, its an hour of debate backward and forwards but I'd rather not bother to pay for that, I can phone a friend and get exactly the same. ..

I do agree with you that many a therapist are not helpful all, but there are also those who are worth their weight in gold who do help.  I do not discount that profession at all.  It can take work to find someone who helps, but if your response to advice and other experiences in these threads is anything like how you interacted with a therapist, of course they are useless. 

You need to be open to the idea that your approach and how you see things is off, and not use your strong intellect to nay-say everything and throw things into circular arguments...where you agree to propositions and facts until the logical consequences are things you cannot face so you circle back to the beginning.

[ZA Dater]

22 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

I do agree with you that many a therapist are not helpful all, but there are also those who are worth their weight in gold who do help.  I do not discount that profession at all.  It can take work to find someone who helps, but if your response to advice and other experiences in these threads is anything like how you interacted with a therapist, of course they are useless. 

You need to be open to the idea that your approach and how you see things is off, and not use your strong intellect to nay-say everything and throw things into circular arguments...where you agree to propositions and facts until the logical consequences are things you cannot face so you circle back to the beginning.

At the end of the day no therapist will make me more attractive to the point where I will be able to genuinely have those nice conversations so in my view that angle is pretty worthless. How I see things might very well be off, I never said I was correct but how I see things is based on my experience so that cannot be discounted, likewise my approach might be off too but that approach is chosen to try and get me a bit closer to what I actually want, notice "a bit closer".  Its often said the easiest thing in the world to do is give advice and the hardest is to take ones own advice and for me that is the underlying issue with these so called "professionals" and here I especially refer to dating coaches, truth be told there are people on this forum who offer far more valid, relatable and useful advice than dating coaches and dare I say other professionals.

I do not believe anything about who we find attractive, who people date, who people sleep with, who people marry and so on has any degree of logic at all, for years I tried to find any and there is apparently none at all.

Should I have gone on a date way back in 10th grade with that girl who flirted with me endlessly, yea I should have. Should I have danced with that drunk co worker I tried to get to know for 3 years, probably. Should I have made a move on the yoga instructor when I dropped her home at 4 am after dancing with her the whole night, probably. Should I think less, probably.

I often think which is why I am trying to work on this, my total lack of any confidence at all was the reason I walked away from all of that, I simply do not believe I can succeed and until I do find some experience good enough to give me that confidence then the pattern will just repeat itself, well it wont because as time goes by the good experiences get spaced out over years so infrequent are they.

[basil67]

You're exactly right that there's no logic in who people date, sleep with, marry etc.  It's because relationships and love are based on feelings, not logic.  There is no magic equation behind it all. 

[basil67]

 

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

So called outside professional help is actually a wonderful money making scheme because I get nothing of value from it, absolutely nothing at all. Sure, its an hour of debate backward and forwards but I'd rather not bother to pay for that, I can phone a friend and get exactly the same. 

If you're going in to therapy and debating with the therapist, I can see why it didn't work for you.  And to be honest, you do much the same here - always debating.  It's like you've got your set ideas and nothing anyone says will change them.  You'd rather argue that what you see is fact than take on board anything which others write.   

For therapy to work, one must be open to the idea that there are different ways to think and that we might be better off changing our mindset.  

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Sure catfish was not one of my better ideas but it has proven the absolute importance of looks over any sort of interaction, the lie is actually pretty small in the overall picture, I had some fantastic conversation I would never normally have had. 

vs

I am working on me and yes these odd "wow he is really great" matches are alright they never move me enough beyond putting my toe in the water because I just know there is not enough upside for me to dive into the water and actually try and because to be honest nobody really likes me, I find it very odd when someone does, especially as there are much much better choices out there. 

This bit is a perfect example of you not challenging your beliefs.  You're so set in the idea looks being everything, that you don't realise that the second statement proves the first wrong. In your catfish comment, you say that looks are important over any sort of interaction.   But in the second comment, you talk about how women are attracted to you but you're not interested in them.   If look were important over anything else, the women of the second comment would not have been attracted to you.

Will an attractive profile photo help?  Sure it will.  But the second comment proves that it's not the be all and end all.  

[CaliforniaGirl]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

At the end of the day no therapist will make me more attractive to the point where I will be able to genuinely have those nice conversations so in my view that angle is pretty worthless. How I see things might very well be off, I never said I was correct but how I see things is based on my experience so that cannot be discounted, likewise my approach might be off too but that approach is chosen to try and get me a bit closer to what I actually want, notice "a bit closer".  Its often said the easiest thing in the world to do is give advice and the hardest is to take ones own advice and for me that is the underlying issue with these so called "professionals" and here I especially refer to dating coaches, truth be told there are people on this forum who offer far more valid, relatable and useful advice than dating coaches and dare I say other professionals.

I do not believe anything about who we find attractive, who people date, who people sleep with, who people marry and so on has any degree of logic at all, for years I tried to find any and there is apparently none at all.

Should I have gone on a date way back in 10th grade with that girl who flirted with me endlessly, yea I should have. Should I have danced with that drunk co worker I tried to get to know for 3 years, probably. Should I have made a move on the yoga instructor when I dropped her home at 4 am after dancing with her the whole night, probably. Should I think less, probably.

I often think which is why I am trying to work on this, my total lack of any confidence at all was the reason I walked away from all of that, I simply do not believe I can succeed and until I do find some experience good enough to give me that confidence then the pattern will just repeat itself, well it wont because as time goes by the good experiences get spaced out over years so infrequent are they.

A dating coach is NOT a professional. A psychologist is a professional.

[ZA Dater]

8 hours ago, basil67 said:

 

If you're going in to therapy and debating with the therapist, I can see why it didn't work for you.  And to be honest, you do much the same here - always debating.  It's like you've got your set ideas and nothing anyone says will change them.  You'd rather argue that what you see is fact than take on board anything which others write.   

For therapy to work, one must be open to the idea that there are different ways to think and that we might be better off changing our mindset.  

This bit is a perfect example of you not challenging your beliefs.  You're so set in the idea looks being everything, that you don't realise that the second statement proves the first wrong. In your catfish comment, you say that looks are important over any sort of interaction.   But in the second comment, you talk about how women are attracted to you but you're not interested in them.   If look were important over anything else, the women of the second comment would not have been attracted to you.

Will an attractive profile photo help?  Sure it will.  But the second comment proves that it's not the be all and end all.  

Ok I'll be pretty blunt, frankly a good conversation with someone I don't find attractive is nothing but a conversation, there is absolutely no potential for more and I am totally uninterested in more with that person.

The converse is also true.

Irrespective how it's looked at, ever single app is based on looks as it is when you go out, those with looks get more attention and better choice, there are no ways to overcome that and I have tried, no amount of good conversation, thoughtfulness, caring, taking an interest can EVER overcome a lack of physical attraction. I don't need a professional to tell me that.

[basil67]

Your statement was about women giving you a chance - not how you feel about them.    You said that women do reach out to you, so that proves the point that for the women who reach out to you, it's not all about looks.   The fact that you're not attracted to them doesn't negate the fact that they reach out to you.   Is this the type of debate you do in therapy?   

Yes, apps are based on appearance, yet you do get women who reach out to you. Fact.  

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

Your statement was about women giving you a chance - not how you feel about them.    You said that women do reach out to you, so that proves the point that for the women who reach out to you, it's not all about looks.   The fact that you're not attracted to them doesn't negate the fact that they reach out to you.   Is this the type of debate you do in therapy?   

Yes, apps are based on appearance, yet you do get women who reach out to you. Fact.  

Irrelevant if they reach out and I am not attracted to them so for me yes it does negate the fact they reached out to me.

[basil67]

for someone who prides himself on logic, the statement above is completely lacking in any kind of logic.  

The women either reached out..or they didn’t.  Is the truth that some women have reached out....or that no woman has ever reached out?  

Binary answer.  Yes or no -have women ever reached out to you?

[basil67]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Ok I'll be pretty blunt, frankly a good conversation with someone I don't find attractive is nothing but a conversation, there is absolutely no potential for more and I am totally uninterested in more with that person.

Sounds like you see zero value in a woman if you can’t have romance with her.  This is a very unattractive trait in a man.  

Do you know that men who are successful with women generally enjoy the company of women? Even women who they aren’t interested in romantically or who are off limits.   They can chat and have fun with the female friends in their social circle. 

Edited July 10, 2021 by basil67