Catfish

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, basil67 said:

Sounds like you see zero value in a woman if you can’t have romance with her.  This is a very unattractive trait in a man.  

Do you know that men who are successful with women generally enjoy the company of women? Even women who they aren’t interested in romantically or who are off limits.   They can chat and have fun with the female friends in their social circle. 

Where honestly is the value, I have been told numerous times on this forum the friendzone has no value whatsoever. Either it has value or it does not.

What would the point being of leading someone who does like me on? I'd then sit with the need to reject them which I don't want to do.

Anyway I am full of unattractive traits so what's another one really.

[Weezy1973]

21 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

 I simply do not believe I can succeed and until I do find some experience good enough to give me that confidence then the pattern will just repeat itself,

Do you see how flawed this logic is? You don’t have the confidence to escalate even when given the opportunity which prevents you from getting the experience you think you need to have confidence. 

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Where honestly is the value, I have been told numerous times on this forum the friendzone has no value whatsoever. Either it has value or it does not.

The friend zone happens when you’re attracted to a woman but she only sees you as a friend. 
 

If you have woman that’s a friend, it means neither of you are attracted to each other sexually, but you enjoy each other’s company on a platonic level.

You’ve commented many times how you wouldn’t want to be friends with a woman if you’re not attracted to her. So that’s the quality in you that is unattractive. As if ugly women aren’t worth your time, even if they have traits that you like in people.

[Happy Lemming]

4 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Do you see how flawed this logic is? You don’t have the confidence to escalate even when given the opportunity which prevents you from getting the experience you think you need to have confidence. 

I've heard this referred to as an "error loop".  Until something changes, the error loop continues and no progress is made.

[Alfano]

Houston we have a problem 

[elaine567]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

, I have been told numerous times on this forum the friendzone has no value whatsoever.

It has no value as regards dating if that is your goal,  but being friends per se has lots of value especially if you are good friends and enjoy each other's company.
Mutual benefits are usually always good.

You thought you could turn a woman who has friendzoned you into a gf/lover with time.
Doesn't tend to work like that, once put into the friendzone you stay there, you are rarely seen as dating material. If you are interesting and she likes you or she can use you, she may keep you ..around as a friend but most women who are actively dating do not need any more friends so will not maintain that friendzone friendship for very long.
Last thing a single girl really needs is a collection of rejected suitors hanging around, taking up her time and upsetting any potential bfs.....

[ZA Dater]

45 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

It has no value as regards dating if that is your goal,  but being friends per se has lots of value especially if you are good friends and enjoy each other's company.
Mutual benefits are usually always good.

You thought you could turn a woman who has friendzoned you into a gf/lover with time.
Doesn't tend to work like that, once put into the friendzone you stay there, you are rarely seen as dating material. If you are interesting and she likes you or she can use you, she may keep you ..around as a friend but most women who are actively dating do not need any more friends so will not maintain that friendzone friendship for very long.
Last thing a single girl really needs is a collection of rejected suitors hanging around, taking up her time and upsetting any potential bfs.....

At least we agree on this point so no I am not particularly interested in the friend zone anymore because it actually offers me nothing baring a false sense of success which is just that: false.

Being friends with someone you find attractive has even less value because you just have a front row seat to see what you can never have so again its pointless and potentially demotivating too. No I honestly think friendship is almost as flawed as dating, furthermore I do not really think many men and women can actually be friends without at some point the idea of romantic interest being brought up, unless of course the person is so unattractive then that will never happen.

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

Do you see how flawed this logic is? You don’t have the confidence to escalate even when given the opportunity which prevents you from getting the experience you think you need to have confidence. 

Not at all. Its not the experience I want so its very easy to dismiss it. The opportunity itself is not one I want and that is the point, why would I want to even attempt to escalate with someone I do not find attractive. Its all very good and well to say beggars cant be choosers, the difference is I am not begging, a few years ago I thought about this idea, weighted up the pros and cos and realised escalating with someone I actually did not find attractive had no merit and no benefit at all. Here is the difference, some women can fall all over me but if she is not attractive to me its, irrelevant, I will get more "value" and feel better chasing what I want than accepting what is right there and easy to get. 

Everyday I am working on changing my point of view and this is where I am going with this.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

The friend zone happens when you’re attracted to a woman but she only sees you as a friend. 
 

If you have woman that’s a friend, it means neither of you are attracted to each other sexually, but you enjoy each other’s company on a platonic level.

You’ve commented many times how you wouldn’t want to be friends with a woman if you’re not attracted to her. So that’s the quality in you that is unattractive. As if ugly women aren’t worth your time, even if they have traits that you like in people.

I actually do not care what qualities are attractive and unattractive, everything about me is unattractive according to the dating world so I might as well just be the happiest version of myself complete with an apparent laundry list of unattractive qualities. I simply see very little chance of any sort of friendship with a lady where one person is not attracted to the other, yes people around me who offer up something but are not really friends, I'll walk the extra mile for them but its not like we communicate consistently and are in each others lives. 

People do not enjoy my company and sure I can sit and cry a river or simply keep going, my approach now is one of total indifference to the so called demands of what people want because truthfully I never seem to find what I want in a person who wants me so why should I be what someone wants, knowing full well I cant attract the people I actually do like, its like being a great pitcher playing in a team of poor batters, you can pitch as well as you can but you cant ever win because the "team" is not good enough. Might as well just play badly and take defeat after defeat because even if you try play well the only scenario is loss.

So no, instead of me actually trying to be what people want I am quite happy to be the person I want to be and if that means every single unattractive trait is there in bold then so be it, a at least I can be the person I want to be with zero expectation of ever dating anyone. I have spent years trying to pander to what people tell me to be because if I be that so and so might like that, its total nonsense for the most part.

The thing I need to work on hardest is accepting what is, not trying to be "what if". Catfish allowed me to see what if I was born a lot better looking but this is true for many people, many of us are simply not attractive, billions are spent each year by people hoping to be attractive and arguably its very hard to get ahead when you start behind. Yes, unattractive people have relationships, many get married, many have kids but for me that will never ever work, the idea is accepting anything less than mutual attraction is frankly not an option, never was and never will be. Again either cry about it or accept it, I have masses of internal strength so yes I am going to pay a massive price for this but arguably not really because I was never attractive to begin with so all I have done is vicariously live a life some hope to live and some do live, if i had not met super attractive people I am sure might have settled but once the bar is raised it never really drops again. 

For the sake of family and the few friends I have I will go through the motions of dating but all have pretty much realised I am getting nowhere with it and all sing the same "there are plenty of fish in the sea" total BS really because it assumes we can all fish for the same which is untrue, family is disappointed I guess but I am paying the price for simply having my eyes more open to what is actually out there in the grand scheme of the sea.

[Alfano]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

 For the sake of family and the few friends I have I will go through the motions of dating 

This is a very odd statement.

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

For the sake of family and the few friends I have I will go through the motions of dating but all have pretty much realised I am getting nowhere with it and all sing the same "there are plenty of fish in the sea" total BS really because it assumes we can all fish for the same which is untrue, family is disappointed I guess but I am paying the price for simply having my eyes more open to what is actually out there in the grand scheme of the sea.

If you don’t want to date, don’t date. I’m sure your family and friends will continue with their own lives, irregardless of whether you are single or in a relationship. In fact, if you debate and bellyache in the same way with them as you do on this site, they may actually appreciate the peace and quiet. 

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

, if i had not met super attractive people I am sure might have settled but once the bar is raised it never really drops again. 

This is your inexperience talking. You’ve never had a relationship so you have no idea how important non-superficial qualities matter. With experience, the bar in important relationship qualities goes up, while there tends to be more room for compromise with superficial qualities. Not saying people date people they don’t find attractive, just saying those other qualities tend to build attraction over time.

[basil67]

11 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Where honestly is the value, I have been told numerous times on this forum the friendzone has no value whatsoever. Either it has value or it does not.

What would the point being of leading someone who does like me on? I'd then sit with the need to reject them which I don't want to do.

Anyway I am full of unattractive traits so what's another one really.

I'm talking about friendship...even just casual friendship.  Or warm acquaintances.   Not friendzone.   

It seems you see women as only worth bothering with if you can imagine a romantic attachment to them.  Have you never enjoyed the platonic company of a female university friend or workmate?  Even if it's just a casual chat at a work event or someone's birthday party?   

 

 

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

I'm talking about friendship...even just casual friendship.  Or warm acquaintances.   Not friendzone.   

It seems you see women as only worth bothering with if you can imagine a romantic attachment to them.  Have you never enjoyed the platonic company of a female university friend or workmate?  Even if it's just a casual chat at a work event or someone's birthday party?   

 

 

In the work context yes but it's ring fenced around work and only work.

[ZA Dater]

9 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

This is your inexperience talking. You’ve never had a relationship so you have no idea how important non-superficial qualities matter. With experience, the bar in important relationship qualities goes up, while there tends to be more room for compromise with superficial qualities. Not saying people date people they don’t find attractive, just saying those other qualities tend to build attraction over time.

It's funny then that the entire purpose and method of initial attraction is superficial. I get what you say spend time with people and you may like them over time. When the next like is a swipe away why bother giving anyone any time at all.

I have tried for year's to sell non superficial qualities, long enough to know they are ostensibly worthless without physical attraction.

[Weezy1973]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

 

I have tried for year's to sell non superficial qualities, long enough to know they are ostensibly worthless without physical attraction.

And this is especially true with OLD and even more so with an app like Tinder. But you’re unwilling to step out of your comfort zone and try other methods.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

And this is especially true with OLD and even more so with an app like Tinder. But you’re unwilling to step out of your comfort zone and try other methods.

I think with respect its pretty true of dating full stop to lesser and greater degrees and its absolutely true of ANY dating app. 

The best method when people ask and they do sometimes ask because I am always the outlier is to when growing up have a good circle of friends you get introduced to their friends and when you are 18-25 relationships are like the seasons, they come and go, there is not much expectation, everyone is looking to find their way in life, many with little degree of seriousness and when I look at people who did the friend thing, most of them pretty much did alright at dating via that network. The way to not do it to ignore that in the hope you can pick it up later because well you cant, by 30 people have their friend groups and they do not need more and who really wants that weird guy as a friend. At various times I have tried to make friends with people but it never really works so yes I have tried that method and I KNOW someone is going to say "you can befriend women and have normal friendships and maybe they have friends",  this never works because the friendships I end up having are ONLY because I have something they need so that friendship is limited to the scope of them getting what they need from me and how they usually get that is to give me just a modicum of attention because well the awkward shy guy is going to love attention from gorgeous me and guess what the awkward shy guy DOES love that attention so gives whatever they want freely.

I think to be fair there are a lot of ways things can work depending on what you actually want but lets assume that is different from person to person. OLD is actually out of my comfort zone in that I know I get nothing from it but it does get me to the window where I can look in, even if I cant walk into the shop and in this respect it gets me to that point which other methods simply do not.

What has become the case is virtually nobody impresses me anymore to any degree when it comes to dating, which I think is sad, I once went on a date and she told me something which I could see was really exciting for her and I had to pretend to be excited by it, deep down I felt really bad actually, these sort of things I do feel quite acutely. I'll always put the feelings of others ahead of my own if it means they can feel good about themselves even if I feel bad about myself. 

In short I really do believe 16-32 is where it happens dating wise and where experience is acquired. Miss that boat and the results are obvious to all.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

In short I really do believe 16-32 is where it happens dating wise and where experience is acquired. Miss that boat and the results are obvious to all.

As said many times, these types of beliefs guarantee failure. Many people find love and romance later in life. In fact men on the autism spectrum are pretty well known for getting married much later in life than average.

 

But because you believe it’s impossible to learn these things after a certain age, you basically are convinced failure is the only possible outcome which becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. 
 

I think the root of these beliefs is deep ingrained feeling of low self worth bordering on self loathing and results in an extreme fear of intimacy. So the reason you’re choosing to live your life by “window shopping” a full life instead of living a full life is because it means you can avoid intimacy and keeps you “safe.” 
 

Which is why you need therapy. And please don’t debate your therapist. 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

As said many times, these types of beliefs guarantee failure. Many people find love and romance later in life. In fact men on the autism spectrum are pretty well known for getting married much later in life than average.

 

But because you believe it’s impossible to learn these things after a certain age, you basically are convinced failure is the only possible outcome which becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. 
 

I think the root of these beliefs is deep ingrained feeling of low self worth bordering on self loathing and results in an extreme fear of intimacy. So the reason you’re choosing to live your life by “window shopping” a full life instead of living a full life is because it means you can avoid intimacy and keeps you “safe.” 
 

Which is why you need therapy. And please don’t debate your therapist. 

Of course one can learn them but there is no receptive audience/limited receptive audience, you are asking women to make compromises they do not need to make and maybe should not make. Why should someone accept me with no experience when they can have someone with experience, there is nothing particularly stand out about me in terms of dating and what people apparently seem to want. 

I'd wager 95% of people find inexperience unappealing and the 5% left are people who themselves are inexperienced/ have no attractive choices. SO yes the outcome is strongly slanted toward failure.

No the simply truth is what I can window shop is miles more appealing than who I can actually date, that is the reason I do that. If it were the case I had a open book of dating possibilities I'd grab those with both hands and so what if I got rejected, at least I'd be going out with people I found attractive, I'd rather get rejected chasing someone I like than force myself to chase someone I do not. I get it, you wont agree with this but again catfish idea has shown me the VAST difference between being attractive to people and having to grovel to make yourself attractive when you really are not attractive at all. Has ANYONE actually ever been attracted to me, based on my catfish experiment and the way those ladies interacted with me, I''d have to say NO. 

Every time it me squeezing the rock to actually get something out of the experience, to try and sell myself to people who are more often than not people I do not find attractive and interesting. When by some miracle I happen upon someone I do find attractive, well he bank of promising attractive marketable qualities never really is enough when once again compared to the competition and ultimately who these people land up with confirms that. 

If nothing else dating for me has been interesting but ultimately an unfulfilling waste of time. I had my chances and I messed them up so I cant complain woe is me, others have it far worse.

At the end of the day the reality is my choices are women 45+ and that is not the choice group I actually want, 25 to 34 is where I want to actually date but again time does me no favours, lack of experience does me no favours and no marketable desirable qualities pretty much nails down the lid. 

SO yes when I window shop its out the view of "what might have been" and "would that not be nice" and perhaps every few years I'll come across someone like A who really makes me realise how amazing it could be.....No I had my chances and messed every single one of them up, ironically because "I was working out of my comfort zone" so no its better for me to walk past the yoga attired brunette chatting with her friends and not look back, think about "what if" for a fleeting moment and then re gear my mind to whatever work problem I have at that time. Its not like any of those women are going to choose me over fun Chad anyway. 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I'd wager 95% of people find inexperience unappealing and the 5% left are people who themselves are inexperienced/ have no attractive choices.

And another example of your beliefs holding you back…

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

 I get it, you wont agree with this but again catfish idea has shown me the VAST difference between being attractive to people and having to grovel to make yourself attractive when you really are not attractive at all.

This is only based on Tinder the most skewed, superficial way to date. See a picture and swipe. Nothing of substance whatsoever. So are you making the grand proclamation that people who are physically attractive get more opportunity on a medium that is purely based on the superficial? Of course. Didn’t really need an experiment to figure that one out did you? Your problem is thinking Tinder is somehow an accurate reflection of real life. It’s not. If you actually look around you’ll see all sorts of couples all along the spectrum of superficial qualities that are married, dating, having sex, falling in love…

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

It’s better for me to walk past the yoga attired brunette chatting with her friends and not look back, think about "what if" for a fleeting moment and then re gear my mind to whatever work problem I have at that time. Its not like any of those women are going to choose me over fun Chad anyway. 

You literally have no idea the types of men that brunette is attracted to. But another example of your beliefs holding you back…

[SumGuy]

On 7/10/2021 at 8:58 AM, basil67 said:

Sounds like you see zero value in a woman if you can’t have romance with her.  This is a very unattractive trait in a man.  

Do you know that men who are successful with women generally enjoy the company of women? Even women who they aren’t interested in romantically or who are off limits.   They can chat and have fun with the female friends in their social circle. 

The best advice of this thread.  This is THE secret in so many ways.   
 

Sure “friend zone” will come up.  The friend zone is only a thing that arises when she wants just a friend and he wants more.  That’s just a guy being false and eventually creepy.   A true friendship is not the same thing, and if one can’t grasp that they will never grasp the secret.  

[elaine567]

13 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

ts not like any of those women are going to choose me over fun Chad anyway. 

OMG if we all had developed this way of thinking, no-one would ever date anyone...
Even Chad may miss out to Super Chad, Super Chad may miss out to Super Duper Chad.... so no point in anyone trying at all.

[ZA Dater]

12 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

And another example of your beliefs holding you back…

 

This is only based on Tinder the most skewed, superficial way to date. See a picture and swipe. Nothing of substance whatsoever. So are you making the grand proclamation that people who are physically attractive get more opportunity on a medium that is purely based on the superficial? Of course. Didn’t really need an experiment to figure that one out did you? Your problem is thinking Tinder is somehow an accurate reflection of real life. It’s not. If you actually look around you’ll see all sorts of couples all along the spectrum of superficial qualities that are married, dating, having sex, falling in love…

 

You literally have no idea the types of men that brunette is attracted to. But another example of your beliefs holding you back…

You can disregard Tinder as much as you like but its exactly the same with every other platform which I do believe is a VERY accurate reflection of real life. You know what I do look around me and what I see just further supports my point of view. Like pretty much matches with like UNLESS of course you have some other sort of draw card then yes you can perhaps beat that equation. My question to you this is, do you date according to what you actually want or according to what you can actually get?

I believe OLD platforms are a great way to determine what your attractiveness level actually is so yes I will walk past that brunette and I know full well what type of guy she will go for and most of the time when said bf or whatever walks up I am never really surprised. Again this is why I window shop what would be any point in approaching or trying anything when I know full well I am never in the race anyway. In this respect OLD is great, swipe and like and nothing ventured.

A long time ago I knew being versed in world politics and current affairs has zero value in terms of dating, make no mistake I do know what apparently people do find valuable, I just possess zero of those qualities so again why put myself in a position of almost certain rejection when I can window shop with none of that, the end result is the same anyway, I never get anywhere if I try or if I do not.

At the end of the day we are entitled to nothing, some do better than others and that is just the reality of life. Some accept less than what they want, I would rather have nothing than something I do no want. 

 

 

[ZA Dater]

23 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

OMG if we all had developed this way of thinking, no-one would ever date anyone...
Even Chad may miss out to Super Chad, Super Chad may miss out to Super Duper Chad.... so no point in anyone trying at all.

No to be fair many people have wonderful dating qualities which make them attractive to people, my own point of view is men cannot really overcome a lack of attraction but women can because there are many more desperate men...

To be fair too, I suspect some guys simply just give up and take whoever shows them a modicum of interest and that interest is enough for them to just give up looking, I know people like this, I also know people who never stop looking even when they meet really nice people, they can do this because they have endless choice as a result of great attractive qualities.

As I say I had my chances.

[ZA Dater]

8 hours ago, SumGuy said:

The best advice of this thread.  This is THE secret in so many ways.   
 

Sure “friend zone” will come up.  The friend zone is only a thing that arises when she wants just a friend and he wants more.  That’s just a guy being false and eventually creepy.   A true friendship is not the same thing, and if one can’t grasp that they will never grasp the secret.  

The secret is to have qualities that others desire and find attractive if not qualities then tangible things help immensely. For years people tell me "just be her friend she has friends you ca meet" this is of course never ever the case they never actually want friendship to begin with, ladies are not there to help people like me, why would they, there is no upside for them.

Time after time I am told here that ladies on dating sites do not want friends so do not even bother so how being friends actually helps me I have no idea.