Catfish

[jspice]

Great, so you have all the answers then by looking at the ten people you know and your extensive experience. 
You should get dates and girls by debating them and talking about politics. I guess everyone here who’s married or in a relationship just got lucky or they settled, right? 
What more do you want? 

[elaine567]

Because I guess that people see that you cannot attract women by normal means, so your best chance is to sneak up on them and hope they will accept you.
A bit like in some animal societies the alpha male grabs all the girls, and he will fight for his position.
Beta males know they will never win in a fight, but instead they sneak up on the girls and may be able to mate with them.

Your idea of being friends first has the possibility of working,  some people do end up marrying their best friend...but you steadfastly stick to wanting "top class", highly desirable  women. and that is the problem.
Top class women have their pick of men, they will not likely be interested in a average guy trying to be their friend in the hope of being given a chance.
She may be your friend if it suits, but when looking for a lover she will look elsewhere. Which is exactly what happened with A. 

No-one would suggest an average looking 37 yo woman, with no success in dating ever, should attach  herself to a highly desirable guy in the hope he would eventually date her...
Would they?... 
 

 

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Because I guess that people see that you cannot attract women by normal means, so your best chance is to sneak up on them and hope they will accept you.
A bit like in some animal societies the alpha male grabs all the girls, and he will fight for his position.
Beta males know they will never win in a fight, but instead they sneak up on the girls and may be able to mate with them.

Your idea of being friends first has the possibility of working,  some people do end up marrying their best friend...but you steadfastly stick to wanting "top class", highly desirable  women. and that is the problem.
Top class women have their pick of men, they will not likely be interested in a average guy trying to be their friend in the hope of being given a chance.
She may be your friend if it suits, but when looking for a lover she will look elsewhere. Which is exactly what happened with A. 

No-one would suggest an average looking 37 yo woman, with no success in dating ever, should attach  herself to a highly desirable guy in the hope he would eventually date her...
Would they?... 
 

 

Why should I not do that? The first paragraph made me laugh because I have seen examples of that and its truly cringeworthy to see and I have been put into frankly stupid positions because of that illogical idea, if nothing else its taught me to have a thick skin and just joke about the sheer ridiculousness of it.

Well if you believe some here, experience is irrelevant.....

As you have told me many times they do not need friends so there is no value there either for them. It must be truly lovely to have the ability to choose.  For what its worth the friends idea either works of it does not work, it cannot be defined by more desirable and less desirable. Surely friends are friends.....

[elaine567]

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

For what its worth the friends idea either works of it does not work, it cannot be defined by more desirable and less desirable. Surely friends are friends.....

It tends to work when people are friends anyway. Their friendship grows into something more romantic. People do not tend to think. "That looks like a nice girl I will be her friend in the hope she will date me." It doesn't seem to work like that.

Adults tend to just ask people out on dates.

 

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

On 5/2/2021 at 2:37 PM, ZA Dater said:

I get that but when you have a great conversation and she says it's not all about the looks that's actually untrue because I had a really great conversation with someone but apparently I was too ugly for any of that conversation to actually matter. So it was still interesting to me that mostly it's impossible to make up for wholly unappealing looks.

 

Why do you act like this is new and fascinating to you when it's you who refuses to date any woman who specifically has an athletic "yoga body"? You're projecting. It is you who have ridiculous physical standards. So you decide everyone else does, too.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

It tends to work when people are friends anyway. Their friendship grows into something more romantic. People do not tend to think. "That looks like a nice girl I will be her friend in the hope she will date me." It doesn't seem to work like that.

Adults tend to just ask people out on dates.

 

 

If they really did this, there would be no need for OLD, the fact OLD exists suggests that perhaps not everyone actually does this, it being a lot easier to swipe through endless people, pick the one you like and well, hope they like you back.

Well I am sure friends work if both are single but I suspect its impossible if one is not. Though I have heard instances where it does work, someone breaks up and well that person is then in the front row seat but I suspect after 33 most people know how to maintain a relationship so counting on that is more of a hope than hoping for the right lottery numbers.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

Why do you act like this is new and fascinating to you when it's you who refuses to date any woman who specifically has an athletic "yoga body"? You're projecting. It is you who have ridiculous physical standards. So you decide everyone else does, too.

That is my preference, I am sure you have yours. Frankly my preference might seem ridiculous to you but it is not to me. You are right I do refuse to date people unattractive me, do you date unattractive people?

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

You can disregard Tinder as much as you like but its exactly the same with every other platform which I do believe is a VERY accurate reflection of real life.

It’s not. OLD is rampant with what’s called “aspirational dating”. That is people trying to date out of their league. It’s what you’re trying to do and it’s what the women swiping right on you are trying to do. But in real life what happens is this:

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

.You know what I do look around me and what I see just further supports my point of view. Like pretty much matches with like UNLESS of course you have some other sort of draw card…

Which you’ve noticed. This is why OLD is not an accurate indicator of your attractiveness level. I’ve mentioned it before, but none of the women that messaged me first through OLD were attractive to me. And my “match rate” through swiping apps like Tinder was probably 1 in 100 or so. I’m assuming that’s because I wasn’t swiping right on the vast majority of women that were swiping right on me. 

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

My question to you this is, do you date according to what you actually want or according to what you can actually get?

If you want a relationship, then it doesn’t make sense to want something you can’t get. But, to be clear, that doesn’t mean I should have just dated the women that messaged me first through OLD that I wasn’t attracted to. Nor should you date someone you’re not attracted to. But you also shouldn’t only focus your attention on women you know aren’t interested in you. There’s a middle ground in there that you tend to dismiss / ignore.

[CaliforniaGirl]

10 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

That is my preference, I am sure you have yours. Frankly my preference might seem ridiculous to you but it is not to me. You are right I do refuse to date people unattractive me, do you date unattractive people?

Sure I've dated men who did not have my one exact specific body type. Because there is so much more than that. 

[ZA Dater]

23 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Which you’ve noticed. This is why OLD is not an accurate indicator of your attractiveness level. I’ve mentioned it before, but none of the women that messaged me first through OLD were attractive to me. And my “match rate” through swiping apps like Tinder was probably 1 in 100 or so. I’m assuming that’s because I wasn’t swiping right on the vast majority of women that were swiping right on me. 

 

If you want a relationship, then it doesn’t make sense to want something you can’t get. But, to be clear, that doesn’t mean I should have just dated the women that messaged me first through OLD that I wasn’t attracted to. Nor should you date someone you’re not attracted to. But you also shouldn’t only focus your attention on women you know aren’t interested in you. There’s a middle ground in there that you tend to dismiss / ignore.

I look it the reverse way, the people I swipe on and like clearly do not like me so why would I have any better chance with that exact same person in a coffee shop situation, simply put I would get dismissed in exactly the same way. 

In my case nobody I would even consider dating is interested in me so there is not middle ground at all. Me, swipe on what I like and get no matches, use boost to see who matches and well get dozens of matches I would not ever bother meeting because they are unattractive and mostly completely incompatible. 

For me it makes perfect sense to want  what you apparently cannot get because its exactly that "aspirational". I would say almost 80% of my whole dating game is geared toward that point of view, its why for me its better to window shop than frankly waste my time sitting down with someone who I do not find attractive.  I only did this in the past because well I was told its a numbers game and who knows maybe they will be attractive in other ways 

[Weezy1973]

17 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I look it the reverse way, the people I swipe on and like clearly do not like me so why would I have any better chance with that exact same person in a coffee shop situation, simply put I would get dismissed in exactly the same way. 

For me it makes perfect sense to want  what you apparently cannot get because its exactly that "aspirational".

So to boil it down. You’re only attracted to women that are out of your league. And as you’ve noticed people with similar levels of looks tend to match up. So that means these women are very unlikely to be attracted to you. Just like you’re not attracted to the women swiping right on you on Tinder. 
 

And I have no doubt you’re being honest. I genuinely do think you’re only attracted to women that are out of your league. You’re average looking; they’re beautiful. So I can see how dating someone you’re not attracted to would be tough in your case. But to be clear, you’re the exception here. I’m average looking, as is my wife. Yet I’m still very attracted to her, and (as far as I can tell) she is to me. That’s how most people are wired. Where people at their same level of attractiveness can be attracted to each other given a genuine connection. 

[ZA Dater]

42 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

So to boil it down. You’re only attracted to women that are out of your league. And as you’ve noticed people with similar levels of looks tend to match up. So that means these women are very unlikely to be attracted to you. Just like you’re not attracted to the women swiping right on you on Tinder. 
 

And I have no doubt you’re being honest. I genuinely do think you’re only attracted to women that are out of your league. You’re average looking; they’re beautiful. So I can see how dating someone you’re not attracted to would be tough in your case. But to be clear, you’re the exception here. I’m average looking, as is my wife. Yet I’m still very attracted to her, and (as far as I can tell) she is to me. That’s how most people are wired. Where people at their same level of attractiveness can be attracted to each other given a genuine connection. 

Correct yes. 

I have gone out and actually tried to find people attractive, tried to find things about them I like and I simply never do.  When you look at how I see thing then its easy to see why I see them the way I do and why the grey area for the most part does not exist. 

One thing I have noticed is guys universally like attention, I have seen how this happens and I am always left somewhat amazed that so many buy into this attention so universally, I used to love it to but then I questioned why I got this attention and who I was getting it from and its one things to get flirty attention from someone you actually find attractive and another if its the reverse. I take this a bit further and realize that ladies get bothered by guys all the time, gym's, coffee shops and how must it feel to have guys trying their luck all the time. Too much attention can be a bad thing.

I am lucky though, I can walk down the side walk, walk along the beach, stand in the shop and nobody pays any attention. In short I'd rather have no attention than unwanted attention.

So yes window shopping is about as good as it gets!

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I look it the reverse way, the people I swipe on and like clearly do not like me so why would I have any better chance with that exact same person in a coffee shop situation, simply put I would get dismissed in exactly the same way. 

In my case nobody I would even consider dating is interested in me so there is not middle ground at all. Me, swipe on what I like and get no matches, use boost to see who matches and well get dozens of matches I would not ever bother meeting because they are unattractive and mostly completely incompatible. 

For me it makes perfect sense to want  what you apparently cannot get because its exactly that "aspirational". I would say almost 80% of my whole dating game is geared toward that point of view, its why for me its better to window shop than frankly waste my time sitting down with someone who I do not find attractive.  I only did this in the past because well I was told its a numbers game and who knows maybe they will be attractive in other ways 

Have you considered looking a little more deeply into what you've said a few times about how you feel you have to date because your family wants to? Have you considered that you may not want a relationship at all and this is why you're making every possible excuse?

[Weezy1973]

15 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

One thing I have noticed is guys universally like attention, I have seen how this happens and I am always left somewhat amazed that so many buy into this attention so universally,

That’s because most guys (and quite a few women too) are very interested in sex. Attention indicates (either consciously or subconsciously) a possibility for sex. But since you avoid sex due to your fear of ridicule/ rejection, this wouldn’t make sense to you.

 

Generally men are happy to have sex with women that they’re not particularly attracted to. But when it comes to committing / marriage they will hold out for someone that they’re very attracted to.

[ZA Dater]

6 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

That’s because most guys (and quite a few women too) are very interested in sex. Attention indicates (either consciously or subconsciously) a possibility for sex. But since you avoid sex due to your fear of ridicule/ rejection, this wouldn’t make sense to you.

 

Generally men are happy to have sex with women that they’re not particularly attracted to. But when it comes to committing / marriage they will hold out for someone that they’re very attracted to.

Makes zero sense to me, if I am going to sleep with someone they need to be attractive at least. I'd gladly sleep with that attractive brunette in the yoga outfit, the un sporty lady behind the counter at my coffee shop, no thanks.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Makes zero sense to me,

Of course not. You’ve never had sex. Never been in a relationship. Never even had a second date. How the average person feels about these things wouldn’t make sense to you. But they’re succeeding and you’re not….

[elaine567]

40 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I'd gladly sleep with that attractive brunette in the yoga outfit, the un sporty lady behind the counter at my coffee shop, no thanks.

The problem being that as you have observed, mostly like matches with like.
The head turning attractive brunette in the yoga outfit will garner interest from many men, the "un-sporty lady behind the counter" will garner a whole lot less interest, if any.
Which one do you think is in reality your match?

Yes everyone can dream, but everyone has to face reality at some point and make the best of the hands they are dealt.
You do a good job outlining your flaws and lack of attractiveness, but you actually seem oblivious to the reality of the situation.
Whilst playing the victim... you have at the same time an overinflated idea of your own worth.
Not only may the attractive brunette go thanks but no thanks, "the unsporty lady behind the counter" may also go thanks but no thanks.
You think she is far below you in the attractiveness stakes, but is she? She may have other ideas....

You need to be able to accurately identify your true match, anything else is just wishful, pie in the sky thinking..

[SumGuy]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The secret is to have qualities that others desire and find attractive .....

 

The secret basil67 shared is a quality...

Quote

Time after time I am told here that ladies on dating sites do not want friends so do not even bother so how being friends actually helps me I have no idea.

On the bolded, and that is exactly your "problem."

It's not your looks, actually from your pic you look a bit like Tom Holland, just look at the pic that can't seem to avoid of him and Zendaya, he even looks shorter than her.

Or your interests, plenty of women have those or your like of serious conversation, plenty of women like that too (I know I like them and heard often how that is a breath of fresh air).

You look around at all the qualities others have that you don't and think that must be it.  And in part it may be for those women,  as women who like what you have would not go out with those guys.  In my view that is not it.  You don't lack positives, it is your negatives that swamp them and prevent them from ever being considered beyond the first date.

You are blind to your negatives and use all you intellect to deny them and other's lived reality.

So on being friends actually helping....others who are successful tell you over and over how this can help and it does help.  Instead of thinking we are all liars or delusional, perhaps you should consider that just because you can't see it or understand it that doesn't make it any less real....the problem is in your head and for my money the bold is a symptom of how you view human interactions and guides how you interact.   Our experiences are far from far fetched, and it is not like we are all in some cult where we make this s*** up.

This view (how does being friends help) is your genuine core then it seems (at the moment) unless you are good at acting and go only for those who believe in transactional relationships of course you will not succeed with those who value things other than looks and money.  You triple down on all the beliefs that are guaranteed to lead to failure let alone even lead to the women you say you want.   Have you ever considered you are more in love with those beliefs, with the money, status, and the men who have them, than you are really interested in women?

Edited July 12, 2021 by SumGuy

[jspice]

22 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

 

You are blind to your negatives and use all you intellect to deny them and other's lived reality  

True intellect doesn’t argue this unintelligently. 
True intellect recognises other people have value beyond their looks. 

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Of course not. You’ve never had sex. Never been in a relationship. Never even had a second date. How the average person feels about these things wouldn’t make sense to you. But they’re succeeding and you’re not….

Depends how you define success, if they are happy all is good. Me, I wouldn't be happy dating someone I don't find attractive.

Much like sex would be irrelevant if I didn't like the person.

Success for me would be dating someone I find attractive.

[Weezy1973]

6 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Success for me would be dating someone I find attractive.

How many dates? If you went on 2 dates and then never had another would that be success? It’s such a random, meaningless goal. For most people the goal is marriage or a marriage style relationship. Not everybody of course, but most. This is another disconnect. You don’t actually have a goal that means anything. It’s as if you really don’t know what love is.

[SumGuy]

20 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Depends how you define success, if they are happy all is good. Me, I wouldn't be happy dating someone I don't find attractive.

Much like sex would be irrelevant if I didn't like the person.

Success for me would be dating someone I find attractive.

I personally am not nay saying any of that.   My focus is on how to attract those you are attracted to.   In my limited view your belief system, how you see things and evaluate interactions, is holding you back.  I do believe (and from my direct expereince know) there are dynamic women in the "model" looks arena who are attracted to a more intellectual guy, who value connection and conversation, who are not driven by looks at all.   They are a not insignificant subset of the dynamic "model" looks world, but they are also not trumpeting their difference.

My advice, as it is, is to help you develop a mindset that will help you connect.  My view is your current mindset is a basis, a foundation, that is antithetical to connecting with such women, it is antithetical to what they are looking for.  In fact your mind set is that of all the shallow "chads" you see and they are so tired of.  The men they are attracted to are the very men who understand and enjoy having women who are just friends.  As basil67 said, they are men who know the secret.   And no you do not need to be suave or a great story teller, not at all, just genuine and genuine people sharing collaboratively their passions in life inherently tell great stories. 

I can't emphasis how easy this all becomes, so stress free, just natural and organic, when one is genuine.  And that genuine aspect starts with how you see the world and feel about people.  In my view as long as you feel or wonder how being friends "actually helps you" you are never going to get their.  Nothing genuine that these women are looking for can be built on that.   

Now I do believe many men believe as you do, hence why there are so many sites dedicated to faking it, to making women think they are genuine and not just some cad or shallow "chad."  Also as well why many men think looks and money is the end all be all, which to be fair is really all they have if the foundation of their view of relationships is how does male-female friendship actually help them.

Edited July 12, 2021 by SumGuy

[ZA Dater]

58 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

I personally am not nay saying any of that.   My focus is on how to attract those you are attracted to.   In my limited view your belief system, how you see things and evaluate interactions, is holding you back.  I do believe (and from my direct expereince know) there are dynamic women in the "model" looks arena who are attracted to a more intellectual guy, who value connection and conversation, who are not driven by looks at all.   They are a not insignificant subset of the dynamic "model" looks world, but they are also not trumpeting their difference.

My advice, as it is, is to help you develop a mindset that will help you connect.  My view is your current mindset is a basis, a foundation, that is antithetical to connecting with such women, it is antithetical to what they are looking for.  In fact your mind set is that of all the shallow "chads" you see and they are so tired of.  The men they are attracted to are the very men who understand and enjoy having women who are just friends.  As basil67 said, they are men who know the secret.   And no you do not need to be suave or a great story teller, not at all, just genuine and genuine people sharing collaboratively their passions in life inherently tell great stories. 

I can't emphasis how easy this all becomes, so stress free, just natural and organic, when one is genuine.  And that genuine aspect starts with how you see the world and feel about people.  In my view as long as you feel or wonder how being friends "actually helps you" you are never going to get their.  Nothing genuine that these women are looking for can be built on that.   

Now I do believe many men believe as you do, hence why there are so many sites dedicated to faking it, to making women think they are genuine and not just some cad or shallow "chad."  Also as well why many men think looks and money is the end all be all, which to be fair is really all they have if the foundation of their view of relationships is how does male-female friendship actually help them.

I don't dispute any of this. However life has taught me no matter what I do to try and be friends there is always another guy who swoops in and well I am once again a friend of convenience. It's very difficult for me to see any gains from just being used as a friend of convenience.

It also does not help when I look at the guys who apparently do so well and yeah. The reality is Chad gets much more success than I do so that is telling. Clearly lots of people buy into their qualities.

 

 

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

How many dates? If you went on 2 dates and then never had another would that be success? It’s such a random, meaningless goal. For most people the goal is marriage or a marriage style relationship. Not everybody of course, but most. This is another disconnect. You don’t actually have a goal that means anything. It’s as if you really don’t know what love is.

Yeah I'd see two dates as a success. It's a modest goal which should be attainable.

You assume I believe in the concept of love based on intangible qualities...that's a big assumption.

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, elaine567 said:

The problem being that as you have observed, mostly like matches with like.
The head turning attractive brunette in the yoga outfit will garner interest from many men, the "un-sporty lady behind the counter" will garner a whole lot less interest, if any.
Which one do you think is in reality your match?

Yes everyone can dream, but everyone has to face reality at some point and make the best of the hands they are dealt.
You do a good job outlining your flaws and lack of attractiveness, but you actually seem oblivious to the reality of the situation.
Whilst playing the victim... you have at the same time an overinflated idea of your own worth.
Not only may the attractive brunette go thanks but no thanks, "the unsporty lady behind the counter" may also go thanks but no thanks.
You think she is far below you in the attractiveness stakes, but is she? She may have other ideas....

You need to be able to accurately identify your true match, anything else is just wishful, pie in the sky thinking..

Tinder has already told me who my match is, so has Bumble, so has OkCupid. None of them are attractive and not in any way at all "like".

Anyway I prefer pie in the sky.