Catfish

[Weezy1973]

22 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You assume I believe in the concept of love based on intangible qualities...that's a big assumption.

Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant; it’s a fact. Parents love their kids unconditionally as if there’s something inherently special about them when the vast majority of kids are just average, normal kids. Happily married couples (which is the majority) feel the same about each other. 
 

 

[ZA Dater]

10 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant; it’s a fact. Parents love their kids unconditionally as if there’s something inherently special about them when the vast majority of kids are just average, normal kids. Happily married couples (which is the majority) feel the same about each other. 
 

 

Sure I like intangible just like them a lot more of I actually find the person attractive. Dating for me became a transaction when I realised no amount of kindness, being interested, being generous, being supportive would be enough to supersede a lack of attraction.

[basil67]

12 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

If they really did this, there would be no need for OLD, the fact OLD exists suggests that perhaps not everyone actually does this, it being a lot easier to swipe through endless people, pick the one you like and well, hope they like you back.

OLD is a convenience, not a need.  If people were unable to meet a partner without OLD, the human race would never have gotten off the ground.  

 

[basil67]

12 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I look it the reverse way, the people I swipe on and like clearly do not like me so why would I have any better chance with that exact same person in a coffee shop situation, simply put I would get dismissed in exactly the same way. 

You would have very low chances of success because coffee shops aren't where people go to meet others.   And also because cold approaches have an extremely low success rate.

However, if you were to go out with a group of friends - somewhere where people mingle, be having a good time, and get chatting with other people around, you'd have a far better chance. 

[ZA Dater]

11 hours ago, basil67 said:

You would have very low chances of success because coffee shops aren't where people go to meet others.   And also because cold approaches have an extremely low success rate.

However, if you were to go out with a group of friends - somewhere where people mingle, be having a good time, and get chatting with other people around, you'd have a far better chance. 

Coffee shops are as good as it gets for me so yeah.  COVID aside bars and clubs are not my scene at all and as I am told again many times "I never met my bf/gf at a bar or club".

[ZA Dater]

19 hours ago, SumGuy said:

The secret basil67 shared is a quality...

On the bolded, and that is exactly your "problem."

It's not your looks, actually from your pic you look a bit like Tom Holland, just look at the pic that can't seem to avoid of him and Zendaya, he even looks shorter than her.

Or your interests, plenty of women have those or your like of serious conversation, plenty of women like that too (I know I like them and heard often how that is a breath of fresh air).

You look around at all the qualities others have that you don't and think that must be it.  And in part it may be for those women,  as women who like what you have would not go out with those guys.  In my view that is not it.  You don't lack positives, it is your negatives that swamp them and prevent them from ever being considered beyond the first date.

You are blind to your negatives and use all you intellect to deny them and other's lived reality.

So on being friends actually helping....others who are successful tell you over and over how this can help and it does help.  Instead of thinking we are all liars or delusional, perhaps you should consider that just because you can't see it or understand it that doesn't make it any less real....the problem is in your head and for my money the bold is a symptom of how you view human interactions and guides how you interact.   Our experiences are far from far fetched, and it is not like we are all in some cult where we make this s*** up.

This view (how does being friends help) is your genuine core then it seems (at the moment) unless you are good at acting and go only for those who believe in transactional relationships of course you will not succeed with those who value things other than looks and money.  You triple down on all the beliefs that are guaranteed to lead to failure let alone even lead to the women you say you want.   Have you ever considered you are more in love with those beliefs, with the money, status, and the men who have them, than you are really interested in women?

I am not blind to the endless list of negatives, I simply choose to ignore them with varying degrees of success.  The reality for me is there are guys who do very well at dating, there are guys who can pick and choose so I see nothing wrong at looking at what those guys offer that is attractive to the wider market. I never really get the first date anyway so again I look at guys who do, what do they do which I do not do, what qualities do they have that I do not. From this I then had the idea that alright I do not have any of these but I do have these qualities, maybe these are sellable qualities and I can use some of these to offset the ones I do not have. 

Misguided thinking because at the end of the day you cannot compete of offset universally like qualities. You just cannot in the broader sense, sure you may find someone who likes those niche qualities but it will take FAR longer and may never happen at all. 

Friends rarely help me because every single "friendship" I have is based on a use use reality, I have something they need so its worth their while them being close to me. If I fell off the earth tomorrow I do not think these people could care less, they have had their use of me and will no doubt just move on to the next person. How do those people help me at all? It a simple ring fenced relationship of convenience.

I am glad others have a different reality, really I am. Looks and money open doors, absolutely nobody can dispute that, I have had a ring side seat to that match for 20 years and I have seen the supposedly average guy go up against either of those, rarely do I see a win. It does not matter how nice I am, how friendly I am, if she does not want to have sex with me its totally pointless and I will always be cast aside for the guy she does EVEN though he may have some pretty undesirable traits. 

The whole experience with A pretty much exceeded how good I thought something could be so undoubtedly there is value chasing what I like because I know how good it can be. I do think it is more attainable for others than it is for me but that just me being realistic. With people like A I am simply trying to beat the odds in the hope some of the things I am good at are appealing enough to have a sort of "win win" friendship with, that is the best scenario I could hope for and to be fair I realized what I want is impossible but a win win friendship gets me a lot closer to what I want than dating someone I find unattractive does. As Elaine has said quite rightly so there are significant pitfalls with this, some can be mitigated some cannot. I have little doubt with A the amount of attention I got was because she inherently felt sorry for me, ladies who meet me quite quickly figure out I am clueless at flirting and dating and in her case we just had one long conversation about life and everything else and I just blurted it out. It was nice to have almost everything I wanted for a few weeks though.

Nice as it was it got me nowhere at all and once again just reminded me that I am really am not attractive enough.

 

[SumGuy]

16 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I don't dispute any of this. However life has taught me no matter what I do to try and be friends there is always another guy who swoops in and well I am once again a friend of convenience. It's very difficult for me to see any gains from just being used as a friend of convenience.

Oye!  Your still thinking as an orbiter or friend zone, if the friendship was the reason you are with them you would never see it this way, feel this way or even describe it this way.  Also if it is accurate, like this guy literally swoops in and she hooks u[p with him after some cocktail party conversation those are clearly not the women you are after so what is the loss.   I am personally happy when friends meet someone.

Quote

It also does not help when I look at the guys who apparently do so well and yeah. The reality is Chad gets much more success than I do so that is telling. Clearly lots of people buy into their qualities.

So?  Sure that doesn't help but it is irrelevant.  That is not your pond.; the locations and women who are after and impressed by that.  Lots of people also do not buy into those "chad" qualities even if they are in those venues and have dated them.

More important is the word "apparently" as you don't really know, it is like thinking Instagram is a person's real life instead of a curated image, and on the second bold phrase....you have next to zero success, so more success than you is a meaningless phrase. 

I can tell you I know "chad" have travelled in "chad-land" and they are seriously delusional, women who don't go for them, always something wrong with the women...d*ke used to be a common put down...and they often get women by pretending to not be "chad" but they rarely keep them.  It is also common for "chad" to distort everything as their success, and completely fabricate how successful they are.  You see a girl get close to them at a party they will brag about how she went home with him and got all freaky, when in reality nothing happened.

I am like an anti-chad and have more success than all the "chads" I've known (far, far more if one counts the yield the ratio of her saying yes to the number of asks) or you.  Yet you would likely never see an anti-chads success, unlike a "chad" it is not for show and in fact that is a bit of the "fun" the "chads" thinking you got nowhere when the reality is so much different...yes the joke is on them.

Eventually women who are fooled when young figure out their game and want something else.  Like you they may feel stuck and not know how to get out, the world of the haves has a vested interest in the belief that "chad-land" is just the way it is.  They don't want Danny Downer though, or some "chad" wannabe.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

but a win win friendship gets me a lot closer to what I want than dating someone I find unattractive does.

1. You haven’t been able to get that win / win friendship either.

2. If you ever did, you’d feel even worse about yourself when whoever she is starts dating someone else. Go back in your thread about “A” and see how you reacted once she started dating that other guy. 

[SumGuy]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

...Friends rarely help me because every single "friendship" I have is based on a use use reality, I have something they need so its worth their while them being close to me.

Perhaps, and not uncommon sadly.  Yet are you not the same way?  You see no value in just friendship with a woman.  You are not particularly happy with people like that, why would you expect the women you want to be either?  It is a purely transactional way to live.   I do agree you have a good understanding of what transactional people want, and from your own descriptions you don't have that.   

You can continue to live with the scraps transactional people will throw you from their world, and idolize them (I know you say you don't like them but you cow tow to how they live, you buy the BS they are selling that there is no other way, you blindly follow and accept that reality as the only reality, and you don't try to change it or find others who do not believe in it, you revel in it in a self flagellation kind of way). OR you can look for those who have a different value structure and change what you value.  OR you can just make lots and lots of money, as in transactional world if you have enough money some woman will be "attracted" to you, e.g. instead of burning time posting on LS get a side gig.  I see essentially no other options that don't lead you to 40 year old virgin status.

You got yourself a catch-22, you want a woman with a non-transactional view of relationships but all you are after are just transactional traits (at least when you start getting to your minimums for attraction, but that is vague I admit) and you fully believe relationships are transactional and act that way (i.e. cannot see the value in "just" friendship with a woman). 

You are both not what transactional women want, by your own description, and can say from what I have read here you are not what non-transactional women want, because you are transactional...just the "nicer" sort.   

I think I am going to give up on helping you enter the non-transactional world.  Have too much expereince with transactional folks telling me the world is only a certain way, or mostly a certain way, despite my direct lived expereince to the contrary and even when know they are so, so wrong from my expereince just the other night (the whole anti-chad thing above).  Often wrong but never in doubt, is my expereince with transactional world.  

[SumGuy]

30 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

1. You haven’t been able to get that win / win friendship either.

2. If you ever did, you’d feel even worse about yourself when whoever she is starts dating someone else. Go back in your thread about “A” and see how you reacted once she started dating that other guy. 

Likely, also it is not a friendship if one gets sad they date someone else, that means you were just orbiting and could not accept were just friends; as if friendship is some lower form of human interaction and a consolation prize when actually it is one of the most valuable.

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Likely, also it is not a friendship if one gets sad they date someone else, that means you were just orbiting and could not accept were just friends; as if friendship is some lower form of human interaction and a consolation prize when actually it is one of the most valuable.

Ok let's assume I want to be friends as in spend some time with someone I enjoy spending time with who just so happens to be attractive. Is there anything wrong with that?

Thing is those sort of friendships never seem to work no matter what. 

People have their circles of friends, many don't need more so it's very hard to actually find friends, harder than dates actually.

I have got a LOT more from the transaction type friend than I have ever received from dates. They never really last because these people are wholly uninterested in me or I just win the pity vote.

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

1. You haven’t been able to get that win / win friendship either.

2. If you ever did, you’d feel even worse about yourself when whoever she is starts dating someone else. Go back in your thread about “A” and see how you reacted once she started dating that other guy. 

I just have to condition myself to deal with that, that scenario irritated me because through poor advice I ended up taking a big loss. I'd take that loss if I'd actually tried and lost.

The win for me is just feeling indifferent. It's hardly mattering in the grand scheme of my life. 

It's also good to just accept nobody I like is interested so I have zero expectations.

[basil67]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Ok let's assume I want to be friends as in spend some time with someone I enjoy spending time with who just so happens to be attractive. Is there anything wrong with that?

Thing is those sort of friendships never seem to work no matter what. 

People have their circles of friends, many don't need more so it's very hard to actually find friends, harder than dates actually.

I have got a LOT more from the transaction type friend than I have ever received from dates. They never really last because these people are wholly uninterested in me or I just win the pity vote.

I'm jumping in here.   

Having a friend who is attractive is not a problem.  Needing friends to be attractive is a problem.  While it's understandable that you would want a romantic partner who is attractive, it makes no sense that you would need a friend to be attractive.   Friendship is about emotional connection with someone who we don't want to have sex with.  

You're also talking about a transactional relationship.  Yes, friendships are give and take. And take and give - particularly female friendships   We're there for each other during thick and thin, being someone to talk with and relate to.  One of my dear friends is going through quite a trial at present and so a lot of it is about her, but I know without doubt that if things go pear shaped for me, she'll be there for me.   Is this the kind of thing you're speaking about.

And you're right that it's harder to make friends as we get older.  Doesn't mean you should write off the idea though.

[basil67]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I just have to condition myself to deal with that, that scenario irritated me because through poor advice I ended up taking a big loss. I'd take that loss if I'd actually tried and lost.

 

What was the poor advice you received?  With hindsight, what would you have done differently?

[ZA Dater]

12 hours ago, basil67 said:

I'm jumping in here.   

Having a friend who is attractive is not a problem.  Needing friends to be attractive is a problem.  While it's understandable that you would want a romantic partner who is attractive, it makes no sense that you would need a friend to be attractive.   Friendship is about emotional connection with someone who we don't want to have sex with.  

You're also talking about a transactional relationship.  Yes, friendships are give and take. And take and give - particularly female friendships   We're there for each other during thick and thin, being someone to talk with and relate to.  One of my dear friends is going through quite a trial at present and so a lot of it is about her, but I know without doubt that if things go pear shaped for me, she'll be there for me.   Is this the kind of thing you're speaking about.

And you're right that it's harder to make friends as we get older.  Doesn't mean you should write off the idea though.

Here is the thing yes to the bold, this seemingly is something I simply do not have at all and never have had. It is however something I give to other very often but never actually receive back which is why I look at things a being transactional, I do have perhaps 3 good friends but their support is questionable and I am almost certain the bold would never apply, simply because to them I am someone of use, rather than anything else, I reciprocate being doing the bold. Which either makes me incredibly stupid or genuine. I really do not mind giving but there is little use in me giving more to more people if I simply get nothing back.

I hate to say this but the longer one wonders through life with no friends the worse one is perceived by outsiders and people in general. 

 

 

[ZA Dater]

12 hours ago, basil67 said:

What was the poor advice you received?  With hindsight, what would you have done differently?

Well this entire mess was caused by a friend. He knows me better than most, well he should considering we have been friends for 20+ years! I do not believe I was totally out of the running here but I do believe the advice I got was fundamentally flawed in so much as it was purely centered around me having no chance to succeed on that particular path. The retrospective advice I got from people on this form, you included was far useful and dare I say it more geared with what was probably best for me.

The poor advice was "just be her friend". What you need to understand is how I have always tried to look at dating, start off and friends and move from there, obviously I now know that that is a totally wrong but when someone who is very successful at dating tells me this I tend to take notice. All the while this is going on another friend of hers is selling like there is no tomorrow the attributes of another guy, my own friend did no such thing for me. Might not have helped but seeing him do this for other people I did help those people 9 out of 10 times. 

In hindsight I should have just taken the mighty leap and actually asked her out on a date but everything going on in her life made me think twice about that and how it could be seen as me being selfish and again friend "do not flirt with her or try date her" so again I took that advice at face value. I did contrive another way to do the same thing and I do not regret that idea because it did tick one item on my list of wants but it never really worked the way a date would but then again she was not and is not attracted to me. I do actually take on advice given to me and then try and look at ways of implementing said advice. The other irony is when it became clear it all fell apart said friend "you know she would have been really good for you". 

Someone said "I am glad when my friends meet someone" yes and I am too but seemingly its always a one way street. I have only ever supported those around me, listened to hours of dating woes, offered up objective advice and yet it would seem this street too is a one way one. I look around, the above example aside this friend of mine loves setting people up and yet with me it was always a "that will do for you" and he would really sell me on people I REALLY did not like but when someone comes along I do like, there is zero support at all and apparently even less good advice.

This was an eye opener for me and a lesson I learnt, because I see him most days he could see the difference spending time with A made, frankly everyone around me could and yet.... 

When this went bad I felt bad for a long time and there are still days when I do, at least two a week but I cant deny the fact for a while I just had everything I actually wanted so that was really a gift.

As for differently, the major problem with me is because nothing ever seems to work and there never ever seems to be a positive outcome its easier to do nothing than line up for more of the same and while this is a problem it actually is not a big one because VERY rarely do I ever find anyone I like enough to want to venture out and try.....and even when I do I pretty much know how its going to end.

Very many of the posts on here I think about a lot. Good friends can be great allies, they can add huge value and they can be a great support but me, I sometimes think all I have are associates.

 

[elaine567]

OK you can blame your friend but A was well out of your league and your friend was protecting you from making a fool out of yourself.
I know there was some deal going down too, which you didn't elaborate on, so I guess he may have been protecting himself by making sure you did not scare the client away...

Whatever you did here would have eventually boiled down to sex and your ability to flirt, escalate and make something happen.
How confident are you that you could have pulled that off?
You seem to always gloss over this particular Achilles heel of yours.
Unless at some point you manage to clear that major hurdle, all musings about what could have transpired are irrelevant.

[Weezy1973]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

he would really sell me on people I REALLY did not like but when someone comes along I do like, there is zero support at all and apparently even less good advice.

 

You are only interested in women out of your league. You’ve fully acknowledged this. So you have no chance with the women you’re REALLY interested in. Your friend knows it. Maybe he’s even asked some of these women if they’d be interested and they’ve said no. If that’s the case support could look like lowering your expectations to just being friends.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

You are only interested in women out of your league. You’ve fully acknowledged this. So you have no chance with the women you’re REALLY interested in. Your friend knows it. Maybe he’s even asked some of these women if they’d be interested and they’ve said no. If that’s the case support could look like lowering your expectations to just being friends.

Frankly that's not the point, when it comes to him I actually try to help him at things he struggles with irrespective whether I think he can overcome those struggles or not.

I don't believe in bs leagues either. I feel sorry for people who have no aspiration at all.

No he goes out of his way to help others but the help given to me mostly entails telling me how fantastic people are who he would not date but they are fantastic for me.

[CaliforniaGirl]

33 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Frankly that's not the point, when it comes to him I actually try to help him at things he struggles with irrespective whether I think he can overcome those struggles or not.

I don't believe in bs leagues either. I feel sorry for people who have no aspiration at all.

No he goes out of his way to help others but the help given to me mostly entails telling me how fantastic people are who he would not date but they are fantastic for me.

Maybe he's tired of the runaround endless "but, but, but" conversations too, is literally out of ideas and is just trying to shine you on now and just kind of be there.

[elaine567]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Maybe he’s even asked some of these women if they’d be interested and they’ve said no.

I got asked once by a friend of a guy, if I would he interested in dating his friend,
As it was I was interested and we dated for a while. I was however very young at the time,
I am not sure if I would have said yes if I was older. I would have expected a guy to do his own asking.
Maybe your friend is not actually asking these women whether they would go out with you, maybe he is just sussing out the lie of the land for you, which is slightly different.

"What do you think of ZA Dater? Marry, Snog, Avoid?"

[basil67]

9 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The poor advice was "just be her friend". What you need to understand is how I have always tried to look at dating, start off and friends and move from there, obviously I now know that that is a totally wrong but when someone who is very successful at dating tells me this I tend to take notice.

I think you misunderstood his advice.  He didn't tell you "try and get a start as a friend and make it something more" - he told you "just be her friend".  It's not his fault you tried to start a relationship from the angle of friendship. 

 

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I don't believe in bs leagues either. I feel sorry for people who have no aspiration at all  

You may not believe in leagues, but how can you argue that your repeated failures to punch through the league ceiling is not evidence of leagues being real?

Have you any idea how condescending you sound when you say you feel sorry for people who have no aspiration?  It doesn't reflect well on you at all.  You're pretty much talking about people who content with their life, job and relationships.  Why is being content and happy with what's available to us a bad thing?  

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

 

I don't believe in bs leagues either.

 

Of course you do. Like attracts like = leagues. 
 

Good looking people match with good looking. Average with average. Ugly with ugly. There are few exceptions (although they exist). And to be clear we’re just talking about attraction here. Good looking people aren’t better human beings than ugly peoples. But they do have way more options when it comes to finding love.

[basil67]

Still on the topic of you feeling sorry for people who have no aspiration.....it's my understanding that you want the kind of women who finds doors opening to her everywhere.  But you also want her to lower her aspirations to give you a chance.   Does this mean that you will pity her?

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

Still on the topic of you feeling sorry for people who have no aspiration.....it's my understanding that you want the kind of women who finds doors opening to her everywhere.  But you also want her to lower her aspirations to give you a chance.   Does this mean that you will pity her?

This is a great point. Wouldn’t a beautiful woman be settling for you? An average looking man?