Catfish

[basil67]

On top of what @Olivia24 said, one person can interpret a conversation as great, but the other may perceive it as average.  Or, they may only get platonic vibes coming from the date so they choose to not pursue it further.   The whole thing is far more nuanced than simply being not looking good enough.

That said, looks matter very much to some - as shown by your choices when you try to date.  Olivia24 mentioned how men have let her inner beauty shine through, but you choose not to give women that same chance.   Of course, this is your prerogative, but it's a bit rich to complain about things you do to others being done to you. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by basil67

[Weezy1973]

18 minutes ago, Olivia24 said:

So true. If  i have any advice for  ZA it would be  never fear approaching a girl you think is "too attractive" for  you. When a  guy makes the effort to talk to me it sort  of  makes  me feel special. Not saying  it will lead to romance  but make the effort.

And also don’t dismiss those you think aren’t attractive enough for you. As @Olivia24 said, sometimes it’s other qualities that can make someone attractive to you, even if they aren’t conventionally good looking.

[ZA Dater]

9 hours ago, basil67 said:

I think you misunderstood his advice.  He didn't tell you "try and get a start as a friend and make it something more" - he told you "just be her friend".  It's not his fault you tried to start a relationship from the angle of friendship. 

 

You may not believe in leagues, but how can you argue that your repeated failures to punch through the league ceiling is not evidence of leagues being real?

Have you any idea how condescending you sound when you say you feel sorry for people who have no aspiration?  It doesn't reflect well on you at all.  You're pretty much talking about people who content with their life, job and relationships.  Why is being content and happy with what's available to us a bad thing?  

I have no issue with anyone so long as they are happy, if people are happy with supposed leagues and what they have in those leagues and who they can date in those leagues then more power to them. For me I would never be happy with that, a scenario like that does nothing for me. 

For me everything I do consists of me trying to do the seemingly impossible, I can probably add this intensity to the long list of things unattractive qualities.

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, basil67 said:

On top of what @Olivia24 said, one person can interpret a conversation as great, but the other may perceive it as average.  Or, they may only get platonic vibes coming from the date so they choose to not pursue it further.   The whole thing is far more nuanced than simply being not looking good enough.

That said, looks matter very much to some - as shown by your choices when you try to date.  Olivia24 mentioned how men have let her inner beauty shine through, but you choose not to give women that same chance.   Of course, this is your prerogative, but it's a bit rich to complain about things you do to others being done to you. 

Sure it is more nuanced but for me I look for rational reasons for rejection so its easier to simply just look around me and write it off to looks or status (which I am convinced play a part if not the whole part.

I do not want to sound harsh but why should I extend that courtesy when it is NEVER extended to me if anything more often than not the throw away method has been used. For this same reason I have stopped going on dates with people I do not find attractive because how must they feel to waste time with a guy who is not really that interested, its not fair on them.

The world is not a warm and cuddly place and few things have made this clearer than the sheet harshness of dating, board meeting being grilled by CEO's, easy, having to deal with condescending self important people, easy. Having to deal with OLD, far more difficult than all of these.

With A, for once I could be the warm authentic version of me, drop the armor I put on and wear all the time, ironically kids make me drop this armor too (I am excellent with kids and people have remarked how good a dad I would make).

The most comfort I take I guess is knowing me own self worth.

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, Olivia24 said:

Thats so true. I cant deny looks  matter when i first see a guy but at the same time the  man i thought was the  most  physically attractive was the  one who took the time to discover the  true  beauty  in my heart. Of course i screwed that  up, lol.

I agree with this 100% but there needs to be SOME physical attraction surely? 

I cant say anyone I found attractive ever bothered to get to know me, conversely people I found very unattractive were besotted with me.

[elaine567]

33 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I cant say anyone I found attractive ever bothered to get to know me, conversely people I found very unattractive were besotted with me.

Leagues again.
Attractive women do not see you as their equal or a viable option so have no interest in you whatsoever, those you find unattractive see you as their equal and a viable option so show interest.
I do not really know why you find this so hard to comprehend. 

You are an average guy with average looks, shy and awkward with a dry and quirky/sarcastic sense of humour, and little or no romance in your soul... so why would the "top class" woman you seek be at all interested in "settling" with you?
You won't "settle", so why would they?

I know you don't like it and wont accept the existence of leagues, but there are two sides to this equation, yourself and a woman.
If the women you want do not find you attractive, do not view you as being in their league, then no amount of "effort" on your part will change that.
The guy in the board room does not need to find you physically attractive, if that was an essential requirement, then your successful deals may not be so easy to accomplish.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

 For me I would never be happy with that, a scenario like that does nothing for me. 

You seem pretty unhappy with your choices and life as it is now. Those of us that have chosen a full, rich life with love and connection are happier it seems. 

[Weezy1973]

4 minutes ago, Olivia24 said:

The trick is to find the middle ground inbetween

Trust me, we’ve discussed this with @ZA Dater many times. The gray area. The women that start out as “neutral” but then become more attractive as you get to know their personalities and connect over time. He doesn’t get it. 

[ZA Dater]

8 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Trust me, we’ve discussed this with @ZA Dater many times. The gray area. The women that start out as “neutral” but then become more attractive as you get to know their personalities and connect over time. He doesn’t get it. 

No you are right I do not get it. Someone who is severely out of shape, apathetic and unmotivated will never be attractive to me. Just like apparently I am only attractive to those sort of people but there you go, aspirational dating again. Must be something about it if so many people try and do it....or am I wrong again?

[ZA Dater]

15 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

You seem pretty unhappy with your choices and life as it is now. Those of us that have chosen a full, rich life with love and connection are happier it seems. 

The one choice I am particularly happy with is that I never bothered to settle. I am glad people find the above but the opportunities I have been presented with for it have all be wholly and completely unappealing in the extreme. 

I guess it depends what one likes. Maybe what I do not like someone else loves.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Leagues again.
Attractive women do not see you as their equal or a viable option so have no interest in you whatsoever, those you find unattractive see you as their equal and a viable option so show interest.
I do not really know why you find this so hard to comprehend. 

You are an average guy with average looks, shy and awkward with a dry and quirky/sarcastic sense of humour, and little or no romance in your soul... so why would the "top class" woman you seek be at all interested in "settling" with you?
You won't "settle", so why would they?

I know you don't like it and wont accept the existence of leagues, but there are two sides to this equation, yourself and a woman.
If the women you want do not find you attractive, do not view you as being in their league, then no amount of "effort" on your part will change that.
The guy in the board room does not need to find you physically attractive, if that was an essential requirement, then your successful deals may not be so easy to accomplish.

The problem I have with it is very simple, its basically a wonderful way to limit ones thinking. Its basically sitting and accepting something you might not want because in your own mind you cant do better. Sure, some people are happy to apparently date in their leagues and good for them.

I guess I am wrong not to find miss totally out of shape unattractive I should be running over so fortunate she has deemed me worthy of her attention, seems like a fantastic way to live. 

Again something I do not want versus nothing, the choice is really easy. I know there are people out there who I do find attractive overall, yes my chances with them are slim at best but what suggests to you I might be happy with someone I do not find overall attractive?

One thing I do know is if I had a friend who I knew was into someone and I knew that person, I would certainly sell the virtues of that friend EVEN if I liked the same person, this has happened a few times before, of course I never get picked.

 

[ZA Dater]

Here is how I think when I go walking on the beach front and see ladies walking and maybe find some attractive 

1: She wont be single

2: She probably had loads of options

3: Even if she gives me the time of day there are better guys than me 

4: She will see within 5 seconds how awkward I am

5: She has loads of friends who I wont fit in with.

6: She is probably going to be unfriendly

7: I have no confidence.

Are these self limiting beliefs, sure they are but next to each and every one of them I can list multiple instances where it applied. This is why I go with OLD where most of this still happens anyway but it would sometimes I do get somewhere, VERY rarely but nonetheless.

Things that work for me are when

1: I have something they want

2: They humor me with attention to get what they want 

3: I enjoy this attention very much and this gives me confidence

4: For a time I have the interaction I like with someone I like who probably does not like me but to me this is deemed success of sorts because in that specific circumstance I have value to that person. 

This is why I view things as being transactional because those transactional arrangements give me more of what I really want than sitting on a table with someone I do not particularly find attractive and having to drag some conversation of the interaction, mostly one way too.

That sort of situation has brought me zero value at all, neither has the transaction but I look back at those more fondly because the level of feel good was much higher and at least I was closer to what I really want.

 

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

No you are right I do not get it. Someone who is severely out of shape, apathetic and unmotivated will never be attractive to me.

So not these people, but also not the 26 year old brunette yoga instructor or blonde Instagram model. Someone in between. Maybe a slim, 32 year old elementary school teacher, who isn’t a fitness nut, but gets in her 10000 steps everyday. There’s a middle ground.

 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

…but there you go, aspirational dating again. Must be something about it if so many people try and do it....or am I wrong again?

People try to do it like people buy lottery tickets. And the odds of winning the lottery are pretty terrible. And people who know anything about investing know how terrible an investment buying a lottery ticket is. 

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The one choice I am particularly happy with is that I never bothered to settle.

And you’re life is lonely and ultimately empty. You try to distract yourself by immersing yourself in work or fill the void by buying things, but, as you’ve figured out, those are temporary bandaids. 

 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I guess it depends what one likes. Maybe what I do not like someone else loves.

Yup. Everybody’s different. If we were all single, I wouldn’t date any of my friends’ wives. And they likely wouldn’t have any interest in my wife. Yet we’re all happily married or in long term relationships with partners that are good matches for us.

[SumGuy]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The one choice I am particularly happy with is that I never bothered to settle....

You have also never bothered to question yourself or admit your may be wrong...or do the work needed to get what you aspire to.  Granted though, unlike many others in your position you don't whine about how unfair it all is and that woman should be handed you on a silver platter.   

I personally do not agree with "leagues" if they are based such criteria as looks and money.  Rather it is connection, personality and if you are part of what that person is looking for, share a world view.   To me people use "leagues" as an excuse to avoid connection or question their prejudices and stereotypes. 

I believe a better analogy is ponds, one can just be fishing in the wrong one and using the wrong bait.  It seems you refuse to acknowledge there are different ponds, or that different bait is needed for what you are trying to catch.  You are stuck, in my view, fishing in the wrong pond with the wrong bait...I agree keep fishing for the fish you want don't settle for another....you know though if you don't change your pond or bait nothing will change.

I never settled, just learned the pond to fish in and the bait to use...but in a genuine way not some player/game way as the analogy might imply if stretched too far.  But continue to spin whatever narrative you need to keep doing what you are doing...seems we have circled back to the never settled and all I see is transactional relationships.

On aspirations...aspiration not backed up by genuine action and realistic steps is just mental masturbation; granted one of the key benefits of masturbation is it makes us happy. 

I wonder why these threads then?  You don't want to change ponds, bait or the fish you are after (the later one is where people tell you are out of your league).  I don't see these threads as convincing anyone that reality is completely as you see it, if anything people are seeign this simply as the reality you make and choose to stay in...you say you don't want to stay in it but wonderfully defend it and refuse any path that could possibly change it for you. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by SumGuy

[CaliforniaGirl]

8 hours ago, Olivia24 said:

The trick is to find the middle ground inbetween

This. Why is it always either "she's so hot, she has the yoga body I deserve to be with" or "she's absolutely disgusting, 'obese,' a single parent and a chain smoker and so grotesque I would never touch her"?

Like...there is literally nobody in between?

Come on. That's pretty hard to believe.

[ZA Dater]

10 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

This. Why is it always either "she's so hot, she has the yoga body I deserve to be with" or "she's absolutely disgusting, 'obese,' a single parent and a chain smoker and so grotesque I would never touch her"?

Like...there is literally nobody in between?

Come on. That's pretty hard to believe.

I'd be happy to date in between, however all OLD dishes up are very unattractive people I have zero connection with. Sure a slim athletic teacher would be fine but again the level of competition is again beyond the qualities I have.

The things I can do are be easier on myself, enjoy the things I enjoy, find some confidence in who I am.

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

So not these people, but also not the 26 year old brunette yoga instructor or blonde Instagram model. Someone in between. Maybe a slim, 32 year old elementary school teacher, who isn’t a fitness nut, but gets in her 10000 steps everyday. There’s a middle ground.

 

People try to do it like people buy lottery tickets. And the odds of winning the lottery are pretty terrible. And people who know anything about investing know how terrible an investment buying a lottery ticket is. 

Well I like trying to do it, I like keeping hopeful and I have had enough good experience to know what I an trying to do is worthwhile, that's that only reason I bother to keep window shopping.

[CaliforniaGirl]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I'd be happy to date in between, however all OLD dishes up are very unattractive people I have zero connection with. Sure a slim athletic teacher would be fine but again the level of competition is again beyond the qualities I have.

The things I can do are be easier on myself, enjoy the things I enjoy, find some confidence in who I am.

So did you give any thought to what I said before? You never answered. I pointed out that you've said several times that you feel your family would be upset with you if you didn't date. What about the possibility that you're making sure nobody fits your standards, or else is way above what you can give back, so that you can make sure you don't actually have to date? 

 

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, SumGuy said:

You have also never bothered to question yourself or admit your may be wrong...or do the work needed to get what you aspire to.  Granted though, unlike many others in your position you don't whine about how unfair it all is and that woman should be handed you on a silver platter.   

I personally do not agree with "leagues" if they are based such criteria as looks and money.  Rather it is connection, personality and if you are part of what that person is looking for, share a world view.   To me people use "leagues" as an excuse to avoid connection or question their prejudices and stereotypes. 

I believe a better analogy is ponds, one can just be fishing in the wrong one and using the wrong bait.  It seems you refuse to acknowledge there are different ponds, or that different bait is needed for what you are trying to catch.  You are stuck, in my view, fishing in the wrong pond with the wrong bait...I agree keep fishing for the fish you want don't settle for another....you know though if you don't change your pond or bait nothing will change.

I never settled, just learned the pond to fish in and the bait to use...but in a genuine way not some player/game way as the analogy might imply if stretched too far.  But continue to spin whatever narrative you need to keep doing what you are doing...seems we have circled back to the never settled and all I see is transactional relationships.

On aspirations...aspiration not backed up by genuine action and realistic steps is just mental masturbation; granted one of the key benefits of masturbation is it makes us happy. 

I wonder why these threads then?  You don't want to change ponds, bait or the fish you are after (the later one is where people tell you are out of your league).  I don't see these threads as convincing anyone that reality is completely as you see it, if anything people are seeign this simply as the reality you make and choose to stay in...you say you don't want to stay in it but wonderfully defend it and refuse any path that could possibly change it for you. 

I think the question is how to catch fish by using alternative bait in this case qualities which are not ready that desirably.

Agree genuine is important to me but I then see the players beating me each time, the better looking guys, the wealthy guys I have seen this, a lot of players spin is spun and it seems to work like a charm. How do I be genuine and compete against this? What narrative do you suggest because every one I have tried has been a disaster.

Thing is I have from time to time met nice people who I did enjoy spending time with so the pond is not totally wrong, if it was I'd find nothing nice at all. I just sell myself on the friend zone, that's my narrative now.

[ZA Dater]

6 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

So did you give any thought to what I said before? You never answered. I pointed out that you've said several times that you feel your family would be upset with you if you didn't date. What about the possibility that you're making sure nobody fits your standards, or else is way above what you can give back, so that you can make sure you don't actually have to date? 

 

Socially it becomes a big problem while I don't have a big social life people comment and I am always going to events on my own which further questions. My family I think gave up on me ever dating a long time ago.

I simply know how nice it feels to spend time with someone who gets me and I enjoy spending time with and find attractive. I'd have that as friendship but it's very very hard to find that sort of friendship and the negative is fairly profound.

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Socially it becomes a big problem while I don't have a big social life people comment and I am always going to events on my own which further questions. My family I think gave up on me ever dating a long time ago.

I simply know how nice it feels to spend time with someone who gets me and I enjoy spending time with and find attractive. I'd have that as friendship but it's very very hard to find that sort of friendship and the negative is fairly profound.

 

"People comment." "...further questions." I don't believe you want a RL. You want to conform to some social standard that will make people think you're like them, and then they'll leave you alone. 

And that more than explains the way you jump through hoops to make sure nothing ever works out. 

Why not face this? Why go on this way, running in circles? For how many more years are you planning to do this? Look at your threads. They're all pages and pages and pages of "but...but...but..." and literally never getting anywhere. Ever. Aren't you tired of pretending by now? How is any of this fulfilling?

[CaliforniaGirl]

12 minutes ago, Olivia24 said:

Its  like graduating  from college and looking  for the  perfect  job. Do i wait and wait and wait or take the  best  offer that  comes to me? 

Right, and to follow the analogy...you know that any reasonable person is going to say, "I know what my goals are. I know I want to make money, I want to be comfortable in my environment, I want to be self-supporting, AND I know that I have never had a job before, so I'm going to go with this reasonable offer and see how I really feel once I'm working. Maybe I'll love it! But if this isn't the job for me, okay. Since this is my very first job, odds are, it won't be my last. So what? That's what being a young businessperson is all about. Exploring what I can do, finding out what I can give, bettering myself, exploring what I really want, finding out what the world has to offer me, and making friendships along the way. I have never had a job before so I don't even know yet whether what I 'think' I want, is what I really do want to live with for the rest of my working life. So I guess I'll get started now with what seems like a reasonable option, then see where it goes. This is kind of cool and it's pretty exciting."

Et voilà.

Any reasonable person who isn't ridiculously entitled - OR who isn't avoiding working altogether and looking for excuses not to do it (ahem) - will not say:

"Okay, well, I have zero experience and I'm not all that personable and I don't feel like working on that either, and I have no skills yet, so here's what I'll do. I'll wait for Warren Buffett to call saying he wants an apprentice and I'm his choice, and then I'll be a billionaire. If that doesn't happen, to hell with it. Why should I settle?"

Edited July 15, 2021 by CaliforniaGirl

[Weezy1973]

5 hours ago, Olivia24 said:

So, you are defeated  before you  even begin.

This has been repeated so many times. He doesn’t get it. Or, more likely, he’s so afraid of intimacy / rejection that he’s constructed a world where he never has to be vulnerable. The result is which means he never feels a real connection. 
 

He already regrets most of his past choices. That seems like the life he wants to live indefinitely. A life of regret. What a waste.

[Happy Lemming]

41 minutes ago, Olivia24 said:

I  hope we can still help him.

He has to want to help himself, first.