Catfish

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

The "perfect woman" will somehow make you...well, just like you think everyone else is. 

He has admitted to that before.
He is looking for a woman, pretty, with the wow factor, intelligent, interesting, extrovert, funny, who can entertain his friends/colleagues/guests at dinners and events, someone to make him look good and more "normal". Someone to take him out of his shell, someone to balance out his awkwardness and shyness.
He can then bask in her glory, "OMG look at ZA 's gf, isn't she fantastic..." 

He doesn't really want a chubby girl or a plain Jane or a wall flower or anyone who is odd or quirky.
They will reduce his status, not bump it up.... He thinks his friends/colleagues will then go "Look at ZA's gf", and nod sagely "Just what we expected...."

[jspice]

6 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

He has admitted to that before.
He is looking for a woman, pretty, with the wow factor, intelligent, interesting, extrovert, funny, who can entertain his friends/colleagues/guests at dinners and events, someone to make him look good and more "normal". Someone to take him out of his shell, someone to balance out his awkwardness and shyness.
He can then bask in her glory, "OMG look at ZA 's gf, isn't she fantastic..." 

He doesn't really want a chubby girl or a plain Jane or a wall flower or anyone who is odd or quirky.
They will reduce his status, not bump it up.... He thinks his friends/colleagues will then go "Look at ZA's gf", and nod sagely "Just what we expected...."

And he has nothing to offer this amazing specimen in return but she’s so wonderful that she’ll take all this on with a smile on her face. 
 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

If you have a goal, and what you’re doing hasn’t worked, you change what you’re doing. You refuse to change what you’re doing. You’ve had dozens of suggestions all of which you’ve dismissed.

 

Here’s a random suggestion. Join a cycling club. You like cycling. You’ll meet people that have a similar interest. Get out of your bubble. See that people exist with similar interests as yours. Not for the purpose of finding romance, but to expand your social circle to people that might have more in common with you. This could end up in you not feeling like an outsider. Perhaps you’ll find your people. Maybe there will be other non-drinkers. Who knows. But at the very worst you’ll be cycling, something you already enjoy. Pretty much no cost and only benefits. Seems like a no brainer.

Who says I don't belong to a cycling club?

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

@ZA Dater had very briefly touched on his traumatic childhood. He had a cold mother, and has never mentioned his father. But has said a number of times he’s been through things he wouldn’t wish on his worst enemy. So severe trauma is not out of the question. I believe he has a deep fear of intimacy and rejection and avoids sexual situations due to a fear of being inadequate and ridiculed. He has paid for dates with women before, but because he’s ultimately looking be loved these arrangements don’t work. I don’t think he would do that if he was asexual.

Ok that story here is for three years my family was virtually pulled apart by my sister who made some very poor choices in life regarding substance abuse, my father had two heart attacks during this time abs nearly died, my sister threatened me with a knife more than once, ran away from home, went to rehab 4 times, prison once. Those three years I had to try keep my family together I had to be extremely strong while everyone else wasn't, I still managed to graduate in that time. These are just some of the horrors.

She eventually landed up on that street. No words I can type here can ever fully state the living hell those three years were. I had to summon up strength I didn't know I had, I had to be as unemotional as possible to support those around me.

[ ]

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
removed response to hidden content

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

I don't know if I'm crossing a line here. I really hope not because I don't want to get in trouble.

And I don't want to offend ZADater...then again, this shouldn't be an offensive subject. We should all be grownups and able to talk about this.

Well, here goes. ZADater, if there IS an issue with wanting to be attracted to women but not generally being attracted to the gender (sex? I can't remember the proper lingo in this regard, sorry), then it makes sense that you can only seem to feel anything at all for the cream of the crop, the most sterotypically "10" women out there. You may be believing deep down that the "perfect woman" will somehow change your preferences. The "perfect woman" will somehow make you...well, just like you think everyone else is. 

This isn't true (don't ask me how I know this, please, very painful...and no, it wasn't me with the confusion). And I think deep down you know that, which is why you seem to only choose to have these "relaxed and open" etc. conversations with people whom you sense can never have a real relationship with you. That makes it safe.

Trying to find the "perfect person" to change something about you only hurts anyone who gets close to you; that woman will inevitably feel she's not "enough" but never know why. And you'll be frustrated that somehow, it didn't work. And you may even resent her and be cruel to her, because illogical though it sounds, you'll think: "You were supposed to make 'me' what I wanted to be. You failed." It happens. It's a long, complex, psychological thing that I don't want to get into here. *Which again is why therapy is really needed here, IMO*...but I'll leave that part alone at just that one sentence.

I am NOT saying that I've been thinking you may just not be attracted to women. I actually was wondering if you were either asexual, or had some severe trauma. Those were my two theories but they were "just a feeling," so I couldn't really take much stock in them. Still can't. The bottom line is that you seem to be waiting for the perfect woman to somehow be "enough" that she will overcome EVERYTHING. All of it. 20+ years of avoiding relationships (it's obvious). Your insecurities. Your inexperience. Your not being "able to be" attracted to normal, healthy women. Your inability to see the value in just friendships. Your inability or difficulty with having casual conversation on a variety of non-sterotyped/non-obsessive subjects. You're waiting for some mythical "ideal woman" to change you and your insides. It will never happen. And you'll live and die miserable and feeling like a failure somehow, when all this time, you could have simply been honest with yourself and WHATEVER this is (I am NOT saying it's definitively homosexuality).

It's time to face up to things, ZADater. It's time to stop these dozens-of-pages-long threads of runaround, and look at yourself...and finally be honest. 

If you don't stop this madness you'll hurt others, you'll hurt yourself, and you'll never accept yourself...much less anyone else accepting you.

It's time to be brave. Braver than you've ever been. Stop this craziness and this running away, and make changes so you can be happy. (And please. No "I'm generally happy, etc," when these on-and-on-and-on threads prove otherwise.)

No worries nothing really offends me. I am definitely not gay and have no interest in guy's. I'd rather hurt me than hurt others hence the reason I won't use someone to get experience unless I am actually interested in that person. Cannot see what is wrong with that point of view.

I open up to those people because they engage with me, take some interest in me and I just enjoy spending time with them.

What I do know is certain people really do add a lot of value to my life even if I am never going to sleep with them. A and K are still around and I do chat to them fairly often. 

I chased sex for a number of years with no success, there was as with dating always a more appealing guy.  When you chase and chase and never get anywhere it just becomes demotivating. 

What I know is I can be that supportive, reliable, honest, strong, impartial, kind, generous and loyal guy, there are people around me who values those qualities and I'd walk an extra mile for any of them. They get me and appreciate the person I am.

[BaileyB]

4 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

Until you decide to stop making excuses and address the reasons you feel compelled to make them., nothing will change. Period.

He also needs to be more open minded and set more realistic expectations. 
 

Edited July 16, 2021 by BaileyB

[CaliforniaGirl]

1 hour ago, BaileyB said:

He also needs to be more open minded and set more realistic expectations. 
 

But that's the thing - until he addresses why he's trying so hard not to have a relationship, he won't do this. Nobody changes until not changing hurts more than changing.

[jspice]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Who says I don't belong to a cycling club?

See? This. 
Just be normal and say “ I already belong to one”. Weezy has been far more patient with you than frankly,  I think you deserve so do him the service of at least being polite. If he were a hot woman he might have gotten a less sarcastic reply. 

Everyone has gone through stuff. It doesn’t stunt them. That’s not to say that what happened with your family isn’t tragic, but people work through things. I have a friend who had a similar thing happen. His sister has been missing for years, presumed dead. She made awful choices. He’s stoic, but not an ass because life was hard. 

You can be outgoing for a woman with model looks but a plain Jane gets nothing but scorn. 
Try again. 

[jspice]

1 hour ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

But that's the thing - until he addresses why he's trying so hard not to have a relationship, he won't do this. Nobody changes until not changing hurts more than changing.

But at some point you need to just make those changes. Asking “why” while you sit on your hands and deride everything and everyone that’s not up to your ridiculous “standards” is useless. 
So he finds out why. From his posts does this seem like a guy who’s going to do the work to fix it? He’s going to “debate” while looking at the posters of hot yoga women on his bedroom wall. 
 

Anyway, he’s getting what he wants which is attention. That’s why he posts here. He hasn’t said anything new in years. Goes away then comes back in a week or two and writes posts that revive the same tired argument. If he gets no response with one post he’ll keep poking. If he’s lucky a new LS poster will find his story and he gets to rehash the same tired lines. 
 

This catfish experiment has been done so many times. He’s gone on seeking arrangement so many times. Posts like it’s brand new info guaranteed to blow our minds. 
 

Finally gets a date with an attractive woman, he says,  and blows it off. Right. 

[ZA Dater]

9 hours ago, Olivia24 said:

Well, i like a  confident  man and  i just  dont see confidence  in ZA. A girl with model looks  or a  plain Jane  can sense that a  mile away. As far as  "going thru stuff" you are exactly  right. It happens to everyone and  if  you  can use  it to grow as a  person then you will be better  for  it.

I did I use it to grow it made me pretty tough and resilient to most things hence the teasing about me being dateless means very little to me.

You are right I have no confidence and it's very difficult to acquire any when all I get is the same result even if I try different approaches. I think this is why I like working, I can sit with an issue, work at it, won't always get it right but I can sometimes get a favourable result. I sit down at a date and I really try but mostly I get nothing positive back.

[ZA Dater]

11 hours ago, jspice said:

But at some point you need to just make those changes. Asking “why” while you sit on your hands and deride everything and everyone that’s not up to your ridiculous “standards” is useless. 
So he finds out why. From his posts does this seem like a guy who’s going to do the work to fix it? He’s going to “debate” while looking at the posters of hot yoga women on his bedroom wall. 

Finally gets a date with an attractive woman, he says,  and blows it off. Right. 

She was not attractive to me. My standards are not ridiculous either. Takes more than looks for me to find someone attractive.

Do the work? All I have been doing is trying to get more favorable results.  The thing is though the narrative I am selling does not work and the narrative I need to sell is not one I believe in or frankly know how to sell either for that matter. I have done the whole watch YouTube vids and it all just seems so contrived.

 

[jspice]

22 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

She was not attractive to me. My standards are not ridiculous either. Takes more than looks for me to find someone attractive.

Do the work? All I have been doing is trying to get more favorable results.  The thing is though the narrative I am selling does not work and the narrative I need to sell is not one I believe in or frankly know how to sell either for that matter. I have done the whole watch YouTube vids and it all just seems so contrived.

 

You think doing work is watching YouTube videos? 
you’re not doing real work on yourself. You’re looking for ways to trick hot women into dating you. You’re getting what you deserve with that kind of bullshit “ effort”. 
 

A didn’t care one iota about you. She needed something and didn’t want to pay for it. That’s why she entertained you. K needs you to listen to her sob stories so she needs to show some kind of interest in you. They never considered you a dating prospect. 
 

So up to how you’ve still had zero success, but you’re content with not changing so kept getting what you got. 
 

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, jspice said:

 

A didn’t care one iota about you. She needed something and didn’t want to pay for it. That’s why she entertained you. K needs you to listen to her sob stories so she needs to show some kind of interest in you. They never considered you a dating prospect. 

 

 

Which is fine because I pretty much got most of what I actually like from those people it was win win. K actually did but shy and awkward put an end to any chance I may have had.

Got to spend lots of time with both, didn't have to be some show pony could just be me, honest and authentic me rather than trying to flirt, trying to banter, I am less skilled than most at either of those but I do try. Mostly with predictably awkward results. 

All I can do really is try, at the moment it's a waiting game to find someone I actually like. 

Reading the thoughts here I keep thinking I'd be better off to stick to what I know and the core things I am good at, almost all the comments suggest I don't have a clue and that's probably true. I know how to be the kind generous helpful guy but I also get it she wants someone to excite her much like I want someone to wow me. I simply fall flat on my face at trying to do that even if I can summon up a modicum of confidence to even try.

Went for a long walk this morning, lots of people around, all in groups or pairs and had me thinking how one would cold approach, again it would be very awkward and add a lack of charm and it will be a hiding of a loss.

You want to know why I am so uncompromising because everyone is uncompromising with me. Guys I know they spent their 20s from one relationship to another and that's smart because you could learn, I often heard animated discussions how great she was and and. They were dating people who they connected with abs enjoyed spending time with, they were not dating people just for the sake of.

I don't really have that luxury of learning, effectively I am backed into a corner, nobody is really into me, those who are I don't find attractive overall, those I do have endless choice so it's loss loss really. 

When people say I am waiting for a unicorn it's pretty much true because that's just about the only hope there is. In the meantime it's about being the kind dependable guy, feeling like I have some value being that.

 

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

When people say I am waiting for a unicorn it's pretty much true because that's just about the only hope there is. In the meantime it's about being the kind dependable guy, feeling like I have some value being that.

 

When people say you’re waiting for a unicorn they’re saying you have to change your expectations. There is no hope in waiting for a unicorn because unicorns don’t exist. 
 

There is value in being kind and dependable and there are women that highly value those traits, even over charm, looks, and wealth. It’s just you’re not interested in those women. 

[SumGuy]

15 hours ago, jspice said:

But at some point you need to just make those changes. Asking “why” while you sit on your hands and deride everything and everyone that’s not up to your ridiculous “standards” is useless. ...

As long as there is not some underlying psychological issue (which I view the same as having a physical ailment, you don't get to choose them, they are not something you can just will away).  As most cannot stitch up themselves, most cannot heal themselves from trauma, heal the stuff that has just burrowed down.  I've seen it too often, just the ability to seek help can be hindered, one's coping mechanisms fight it.  Then add in a few experiences with a bad therapist, one who just reads off of some checklist and people stop seeking help or believing it exists. 

In my expereince, people do no give up coping mechanisms that got them through trauma and function after it, even when they are clearing harming them and a small modification (from an objective outside view) could fix things.  It really make sense, and it takes someone of extraordinary insight and knowledge to help them modify their mechanisms.   In a way ZADaters coping mechanisms are not destructive in societies eyes nor blatant self harm (like substance abuse), so he has functioned well in many, many regards...but they do have fallout, fallout it seems he has been living with for a long time.

[jspice]

3 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

As long as there is not some underlying psychological issue (which I view the same as having a physical ailment, you don't get to choose them, they are not something you can just will away).  As most cannot stitch up themselves, most cannot heal themselves from trauma, heal the stuff that has just burrowed down.  I've seen it too often, just the ability to seek help can be hindered, one's coping mechanisms fight it.  Then add in a few experiences with a bad therapist, one who just reads off of some checklist and people stop seeking help or believing it exists. 

In my expereince, people do no give up coping mechanisms that got them through trauma and function after it, even when they are clearing harming them and a small modification (from an objective outside view) could fix things.  It really make sense, and it takes someone of extraordinary insight and knowledge to help them modify their mechanisms.   In a way ZADaters coping mechanisms are not destructive in societies eyes nor blatant self harm (like substance abuse), so he has functioned well in many, many regards...but they do have fallout, fallout it seems he has been living with for a long time.

Frankly I’m not that interested in investing anymore time in someone who refuses to help himself. He doesn’t believe in therapy which makes everything written in every one of his threads non-starters.
 

[SumGuy]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

....When people say I am waiting for a unicorn it's pretty much true because that's just about the only hope there is. In the meantime it's about being the kind dependable guy, feeling like I have some value being that.

Those are good traits that unicorns value, that most value and are also a baseline for many women out there, especially the non-transactional ones.  

However, a mindset that allows you to value a woman as just a friend, is essential in my expereince, a unicorn will not feel romantic about a man who thinks like you apparently do in this regard.  To carry on with the analogy, unicorn's know they are hunted, they are careful and will often hide their horn, only those of "pure heart" can approach and "ride" them.

I've dated unicorns and even with a unicorn now, so know a bit of what I speak...for me "unicorn" is a combination of intelligence, humor, good nature, nurturing, resilient, adventurous but content with quite, even tempered, open-minded, kind, can do, supportive, confident, well spoken, well written, high achieving, smoking hot and mind blowing in bed, among other things...with no arrogance or snobbery or any other negative traits the internet seems to think "hot" or "strong" or "successful" women always have.  I will say, have never met a unicorn who has a transactional mind set, and they invariably find such mind sets repugnant.  Even with my definition of unicorn, they are not perfect, they are people to and if you don't see or can live that, you are also not going to catch them.

[SumGuy]

1 minute ago, jspice said:

Frankly I’m not that interested in investing anymore time in someone who refuses to help himself. He doesn’t believe in therapy which makes everything written in every one of his threads non-starters.
 

Yah.  Yet still here I am :).  I need to seek some therapy myself I think for why that is.    I do see some value in threads for others than the OP, those who make lurk and just read.

[jspice]

47 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

Yah.  Yet still here I am :).  I need to seek some therapy myself I think for why that is.    I do see some value in threads for others than the OP, those who make lurk and just read.

If lurkers haven’t gotten it by now then I don’t know. There’s nothing new here. 

 

 

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Those are good traits that unicorns value, that most value and are also a baseline for many women out there, especially the non-transactional ones.  

However, a mindset that allows you to value a woman as just a friend, is essential in my expereince, a unicorn will not feel romantic about a man who thinks like you apparently do in this regard.  To carry on with the analogy, unicorn's know they are hunted, they are careful and will often hide their horn, only those of "pure heart" can approach and "ride" them.

I've dated unicorns and even with a unicorn now, so know a bit of what I speak...for me "unicorn" is a combination of intelligence, humor, good nature, nurturing, resilient, adventurous but content with quite, even tempered, open-minded, kind, can do, supportive, confident, well spoken, well written, high achieving, smoking hot and mind blowing in bed, among other things...with no arrogance or snobbery or any other negative traits the internet seems to think "hot" or "strong" or "successful" women always have.  I will say, have never met a unicorn who has a transactional mind set, and they invariably find such mind sets repugnant.  

Ok so by some miracle someone wants to be my friend, then what? What do I do with someone who wants more than that? How do I just keep it friends?

I am just not seeing how being friends gets me any closer to what I actually want, people here told me to avoid that friend zone. So which is it?

Honestly I am not looking for so called perfect person, just someone I like. I am happy to compromise for someone actually feel something for, both K and A I could chat for hours to. Both are really easy to spend time with. 

[BaileyB]

3 hours ago, jspice said:

Frankly I’m not that interested in investing anymore time in someone who refuses to help himself. He doesn’t believe in therapy which makes everything written in every one of his threads non-starters.
 

Every piece of good advice or any carefully written response that someone has given of their own time write is answered with a “yeah, but…” 

[jspice]

49 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Every piece of good advice or any carefully written response that someone has given of their own time write is answered with a “yeah, but…” 

Yep. It’s a real slap in the face. 

[ZA Dater]

53 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Every piece of good advice or any carefully written response that someone has given of their own time write is answered with a “yeah, but…” 

With respect and I do value the advice I do actually try, I simply do not believe in changing what I like. I have been on date's where the advice of this forum is something I do try apply. 

I think though most are right when they say I'll never actually have the dating experience I want.

My options, accept something lesser, accept nothing at all, do more catfishing for company, look at that so called grey area which considering the attributes I have seen hard to find, wait for the next transactional friendship, pay for dates which does not really interest me as it accomplishes nothing, read more dating blogs and try find a narrative that works, pay for intimacy which is another unappealing idea and simply just keep believing in a idea however remote the possibility is.

Those seem to be the options available to me. Maybe just accept the good experiences are for other people to enjoy.

Simply put some of you relate to me more than others which is ok, pretty much nobody I know relates to my dating experiences because all of them get to date the sort of people I want to date and they have never had the issues I have. 

I wish you all, all the happiness and dating success.

 

[BaileyB]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

With respect and I do value the advice I do actually try, I simply do not believe in changing what I like.

Exactly as I said. “Yeah… I value the advice and I do try, but… My mind is made up and I’m not going to change.” 

Point proven. 

Edited July 17, 2021 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, BaileyB said:

Exactly as I said. “Yeah… I value the advice and I do try, but… My mind is made up and I’m not going to change.” 

Point proven. 

What, try to date people I am not interested in. You are right I have no intention of trying that and would never suggest anyone else so that either.