Catfish

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Ahhhh but what type of conversation are you capable of?  Intelligent in what ways?   Those traits are not the entire list your equivalent will have....merely what gets your foot in the door.   From you posts you do not seem like an easy conversationalist...rather it needs almost to be dragged out of you.  Also, what of social skills, personality?   I believe you should still pursue what you find attractive, but also think you have work to do on you, as have discussed and outlined before, to get there. 

When I read the above I immediately turn it around and I reference it to dates I have been on, those women made next to no effort to impress me in anyway at all. Maybe half a dozen did but the rest simply turned up and put in no effort whatsoever. For all my faults I actually do try impress them, mostly I try make them laugh and make them comfortable on the date because lets face it people are shy on dates, ironically I have become less shy the less I seem to care about the actual outcome. 

I am criticized for actually trying to get people to talk but its pretty difficult to carry ALL the conversation for a dinner, I remember one of the best dates I went on with a political student, she was super sharp and there was lots of laughing and banter BUT whereas other guys can turn it into something romantic I simply cannot.

 

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, SoulCat said:

No.

You are nowhere near the tier that the women you fancy are. 

You want a model- like beautiful, well travelled, well spoken, intelligent, outgoing stunner.

You are, at best, a mediocre looking, inexperienced 37 year old who's none of the above, but likes to pretend he is.

Moot.

Not mute.

I am not so easily riled. Tiers are nonsense, someone will chime in how some out of shape guy is dating someone stunning so I guess that disproves your theory.

The wonderful thing is we are all entitled to an opinion and equally we can all dismiss opinions at will. 

 

[ZA Dater]

23 hours ago, elaine567 said:

And how has that worked out for you dating wise?
20 years of complete failure...
Does that not tell you something?

Realistically I have lost the fight when it comes to dating, there is plenty of objective evidence to support that and I have to live with that but that versus having dated someone I did not find amazing, well I will take the loss. I look around me on OLD and the matches I have and am I missing anything, probably not really.  K and A yes, if I could realistically date people like them then yes I'd be missing out because they make me feel something.

You all miss the fact I am not exactly a weak person, I get teased all the time about being single, I get teased all the time about never having had a GF and time makes me stronger and I care less for those opinions. I think the things I probably miss most is some sort of attention, most of the reason I loved spending time with K and A because they engaged with me and I could truly be me.  A warm personality makes me feel good.

[Weezy1973]

20 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

 

The wonderful thing is we are all entitled to an opinion and equally we can all dismiss opinions at will. 

 

Sure but opinions aren’t facts. The matching phenomenon is an observable fact. It is the tendency of people of similar levels of physical attractiveness pairing up. You yourself have made the point many times that the attractive women you’re interested in are more interested in your good looking work mates. This is normal. And plenty of evidence to support it.

[Weezy1973]

26 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I am criticized for actually trying to get people to talk but its pretty difficult to carry ALL the conversation for a dinner, I remember one of the best dates I went on with a political student, she was super sharp and there was lots of laughing and banter BUT whereas other guys can turn it into something romantic I simply cannot.

 

You’ve basically said that you’ve been on some dates and didn’t feel any chemistry, but once in a awhile you do. Normal stuff.

 

You being too afraid to escalate anything into the physical / intimate realm is not normal stuff. 

[Weezy1973]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I would if they were actually slim, intelligent, capable of holding a conversation, gainfully employed, well spoken. Sure that is my equivalent so why on earth should I deviate from that?

I suppose that's being too picky too.

That list would be fine but we all know that’s not all you’re looking for. Let’s say she had everything on the list, but crooked teeth? Or acne? Or mousy hair? Or dressed sloppily? Still interested? 

[Weezy1973]

15 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Realistically I have lost the fight when it comes to dating, there is plenty of objective evidence to support that and I have to live with that

There is even more evidence that you haven’t really fought for anything when it comes to dating. You’re too afraid to get in the ring…

[elaine567]

1 minute ago, Weezy1973 said:

You being too afraid to escalate anything into the physical / intimate realm is not normal stuff. 

^^^ this.
ZA
Until you cross that hurdle then you will always be doomed to fail.
Women don't date to make platonic friends... nobody normal does that.
If there is no sexual vibe coming from you, you go straight into the friendzone and no, friendzone does not mean they want to be your friend...

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Sure but opinions aren’t facts. The matching phenomenon is an observable fact. It is the tendency of people of similar levels of physical attractiveness pairing up. You yourself have made the point many times that the attractive women you’re interested in are more interested in your good looking work mates. This is normal. And plenty of evidence to support it.

Does not mean I need to accept it either. Again if all I can do is aspire to what I want it's a lot better than setting for what I don't.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

That list would be fine but we all know that’s not all you’re looking for. Let’s say she had everything on the list, but crooked teeth? Or acne? Or mousy hair? Or dressed sloppily? Still interested? 

Nope I would not be. I now apply the same brutal selection criteria I am subjected to. There was a time where I would look past things but not anymore, it does not work like that. If I say one awkward thing I get punished for it, why should I give any leeway.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

There is even more evidence that you haven’t really fought for anything when it comes to dating. You’re too afraid to get in the ring…

What's the point by your and Elaine's reasoning the only people who'd want me are people I wouldn't not be interested in anyway. Not point fighting there.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

^^^ this.
ZA
Until you cross that hurdle then you will always be doomed to fail.
Women don't date to make platonic friends... nobody normal does that.
If there is no sexual vibe coming from you, you go straight into the friendzone and no, friendzone does not mean they want to be your friend...

Why bother you have told me countless times I can't get what I like anyway so why bother with people I am not interested in. I'll likely never get across that hurdle anyway because as you have told me women want experience and I have none. 

All I take on is massive risk for actually no likely reward assuming I could even find someone I liked to begin with.

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Nope I would not be. I now apply the same brutal selection criteria I am subjected to. There was a time where I would look past things but not anymore, it does not work like that. If I say one awkward thing I get punished for it, why should I give any leeway.

The selection criteria is not “brutal”. It just is what it is. This strategy of yours doesn’t seem to be working at all. 

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

What's the point by your and Elaine's reasoning the only people who'd want me are people I wouldn't not be interested in anyway. Not point fighting there.

Yes - it’s evident to everybody that you’re only attracted to women that aren’t interested in you. 

[invalidname]

[ ] 

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Realistically I have lost the fight when it comes to dating, there is plenty of objective evidence to support that and I have to live with that but that versus having dated someone I did not find amazing, well I will take the loss. I look around me on OLD and the matches I have and am I missing anything, probably not really.  K and A yes, if I could realistically date people like them then yes I'd be missing out because they make me feel something.

You all miss the fact I am not exactly a weak person, I get teased all the time about being single, I get teased all the time about never having had a GF and time makes me stronger and I care less for those opinions. I think the things I probably miss most is some sort of attention, most of the reason I loved spending time with K and A because they engaged with me and I could truly be me.  A warm personality makes me feel good.

As a strong person you need not give up on dating until you land your ideal date, and I'd say you have a pretty good chance of that if you change up your approach a bit. I'd recommend one of two strategies: either focus on self-improvement (the manosphere and in particular self-improvement blogs by people who went from no matches to tons of matches are great resources for this) or try a different venue - IRL events instead of OLD. When it comes to the dating game, the only losing move is not to play.

Edited September 9, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
commenting on mods

[bene]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

All I take on is massive risk for actually no likely reward assuming I could even find someone I liked to begin with.

What risk?

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

The selection criteria is not “brutal”. It just is what it is. This strategy of yours doesn’t seem to be working at all. 

It does work in the sense I no long bother going on dates with people I have not attraction to. There are no chances in this game, either you are attractive or you are not, sure I suppose I should adopt the beg and grovel approach and try force myself to find some of these people attractive but to what end and for what purpose.

 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, bene said:

What risk?

Well people have spent ages telling me nobody I ever like will find me attractive so yes it would be a risk without reward because I'd get rejected anyway. 

What people do not seem to understand I have been on dates with all sort of people in the hope I could look past what I do not find attractive about them and find something I do but the reality is this is probably pretty flawed because no matter how much I try force myself to try and find something about them I usually cannot. Does it make them unattractive people, not at all they are just not attractive to me.

People are not wrong there is little romance about me, why would there be when I have spent years being rejected. There is no real good story to tell.

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, invalidname said:

[ ] 

As a strong person you need not give up on dating until you land your ideal date, and I'd say you have a pretty good chance of that if you change up your approach a bit. I'd recommend one of two strategies: either focus on self-improvement (the manosphere and in particular self-improvement blogs by people who went from no matches to tons of matches are great resources for this) or try a different venue - IRL events instead of OLD. When it comes to the dating game, the only losing move is not to play.

Yes I would agree with you. Though I honestly I have no idea how to play this game.

[Weezy1973]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

It does work in the sense I no long bother going on dates with people I have not attraction to. There are no chances in this game, either you are attractive or you are not, sure I suppose I should adopt the beg and grovel approach and try force myself to find some of these people attractive but to what end and for what purpose.

 

I’ll repeat what I’ve said before. For most people there is a middle ground. People we definitely find attractive. People who we definitely find unattractive. And people who don’t really register as either. I’ve dated and developed relationships with many women in this middle ground. The key is that I got to know them over time before dating them. Met them at school or work or through my social circle. So although when I first met them they didn’t really register as a potential romantic interest, they moved into the “definitely attractive” category over time. 
 

That’s how a lot of relationships happen. Nobody is groveling or forcing themselves to be attracted to people they don’t find attractive.

[Weezy1973]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Well people have spent ages telling me nobody I ever like will find me attractive so yes it would be a risk without reward because I'd get rejected anyway. 

So no actual risk then? Just the story you’ve made up in your head. Again, a good psychologist can help with this.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

I’ll repeat what I’ve said before. For most people there is a middle ground. People we definitely find attractive. People who we definitely find unattractive. And people who don’t really register as either. I’ve dated and developed relationships with many women in this middle ground. The key is that I got to know them over time before dating them. Met them at school or work or through my social circle. So although when I first met them they didn’t really register as a potential romantic interest, they moved into the “definitely attractive” category over time. 
 

That’s how a lot of relationships happen. Nobody is groveling or forcing themselves to be attracted to people they don’t find attractive.

Ok I accept the bold to be true with the proviso I cannot say I have ever been given that benefit of the doubt by someone I did find attractive. You and Elaine would be pleased to know I turned down an opportunity to spend more time with models this afternoon, work won out. 

I never seen to meet anyone in that middle ground, certainly not on OLD that is for sure. Social, well what there is of that is usually full of exactly the sort of people I usually like but who have no interest in me. 

Would you say those people who moved into an attractive category found you attractive enough initially to spend time with.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

So no actual risk then? Just the story you’ve made up in your head. Again, a good psychologist can help with this.

Even I can work out odds. So long as do the transactional friend thing the benefit is there, its when I want something more that I usually land up with less than I had.  A good example of what I am trying to explain here is this, match with someone on Tinder. Start chatting but I am really having to squeeze out and sort of conversation, there is no real enthusiasm from her, try flirt, try banter and the sum total of the conversation is her telling me she had stir fry for dinner, I even tried to chat about that but very little enthusiasm. This is really my point irrespective of how much enthusiasm I show it never gets reciprocated.

Compare to the time I spent with A, there is communication, she listens to what I say and actually offers up an opinion. K, again she takes an interest. Compare that to the above experience and perhaps you can see why I am struggling to see the benefit of dating someone like that versus simply being friends with A and K.

[poppyfields]

16 hours ago, invalidname said:

As a strong person you need not give up on dating until you land your ideal date, and I'd say you have a pretty good chance of that if you change up your approach a bit. I'd recommend one of two strategies: either focus on self-improvement (the manosphere and in particular self-improvement blogs by people who went from no matches to tons of matches are great resources for this) or try a different venue - IRL events instead of OLD. When it comes to the dating game, the only losing move is not to play.

I agree with this^ and it's pretty much what I asserted in my last post as well, that was shot down by OP. 

Stop placing all your focus on women, and more towards improving yourself, your purpose in life beyond women.

And while the manosphere does get a bad rap sometimes for being too PUA-oriented, there is some valuable information to be found there from men who are quite successful dating wise.  Check it out, you might learn something new.  NOT PUA and redpill, stay away from that.  The most successful men will advise that as well.

It gears more towards self-improvement like @invalidnamesaid and weaning off OLD and focusing more on social circles (social environment like meet-ups, single events) or taking a class you are interested in or new hobby like yoga or something where you are surrounded by women and can regularly interact with them on a daily or weekly basis and thus allowing attraction and sexual tension to build organically.

Edited September 9, 2021 by poppyfields

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, poppyfields said:

I agree with this^ and it's pretty much what I asserted in my last post as well, that was shot down by OP. 

Stop placing all your focus on women, and more towards improving yourself, your purpose in life beyond women.

And while the manosphere does get a bad rap sometimes for being too PUA-oriented, there is some valuable information to be found there from men who are quite successful dating wise.  Check it out, you might learn something new.  NOT PUA and redpill, stay away from that.  The most successful men will advise that as well.

It gears more towards self-improvement like @invalidnamesaid and weaning off OLD and focusing more on social circles (social environment like meet-ups, single events) or taking a class you are interested in or new hobby like yoga or something where you are surrounded by women and can regularly interact with them on a daily or weekly basis and thus allowing attraction and sexual tension to build organically.

Some good advice. On balance I think I am probably better off focusing on the things I am good at and walking away from the ones where lets face it, I am so far behind the curve I could never really catch up.

The unfortunate thing is I sacrificed dating to work on myself and actually that was a fundamental mistake  because its not something one can put aside and pick up on later. My life has purpose aside from dating, I have made sure I fill it with many things to keep me busy to try and take away the feeling I am missing something. Its very hard to walk along a beach, see couples sitting having having lunch, I'll order my lunch and go sit somewhere on my own. I can do it but its very hard at times.

It becomes hard because as I think you can relate sometimes its nice to share the really nice things in life but it all sometimes feel rather pointless with nobody.

Yes it would help to do as Wheezy says to see the same people over and over again but that never happens, the waitress was a good example of that and there have been others, notably someone I used to see very often she was never interested in me, sure she liked the fact I helped out, liked the fact I was there to be the shoulder to cry on but there were always other guys better than me. 

Frankly I do not feel I have much use as someone to date, never has there been much indication that I have any real value at this.

Am I wrong to compare myself with other, yes I am but when I am taking loss after loss its very hard not, its very hard to keep climbing up but I do because for better or worse giving up is not something I do often. I wish I could give up on dating completely. I know a LOT of guys who perhaps sit on the playboy side of dating so I have seen the tactics employed and to be honest the result is good, the method does not really sit so well with me. I call it chameleon dating.

Do I really have any strategy, not really. I have never really found anything which actually delivers any sort of results, kindness and generosity get me nowhere. 

I take the negative outcomes and then look at them and I can them positive mostly because I look at what I have missed out and the answer is usually not much with those particular people. 

There are a lot of regrets I carry around, at various points there were people who did find me attractive but I was working on other things and rebuffed that attention or in most cases did not know what to do with. 

I'll try be stronger.