Catfish

[bene]

21 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

money, status and looks being the be all and end all

Wrong. There are countless normal people in fulfilling relationships. They are literally everywhere. People who make a decent living but are not millionaires. People who have jobs but are not Fortune 500 executives. People who are nice looking but not supermodels.

But we have already been through this many times.

[elaine567]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

You are not wrong with this line of thinking, I have just found it quite difficult to actually be "good enough" to be introduced to people I may actually like, instead its usually the ones the player guys are not interested who to put it bluntly are not very attractive. This experience can be a horrible one for me and for them. 

When I got sucked into this part of the game it just made me bitter because I pretty much saw the "bones" of this, being money, status and looks being the be all and end all so I did what only thing I could and removed myself from the "he is single lets introduce him" scenario and rather moved to the "leave him alone, he isnt good enough" scenario which I am actually more comfortable with

That is because you hang about with these rich good looking player guys you know.
Why on earth would they introduce you to the girls they like and why would the girls they hang about with want to be introduced to you?
These girls are looking for slick guys who are charming, good looking and rich like your friends.
Is that you? No
These girls however are not ALL women.
You may hang about with these guys, but you are well out of their league on so many levels.
Always being the "poor relation" is not a great place to be
You thus have a very skewed image of dating.
 

Edited October 5, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
removed caps/civility

[ZA Dater]

12 hours ago, bene said:

Wrong. There are countless normal people in fulfilling relationships. They are literally everywhere. People who make a decent living but are not millionaires. People who have jobs but are not Fortune 500 executives. People who are nice looking but not supermodels.

But we have already been through this many times.

Lets not kid ourselves here and say that nobody aspires to date a guy with those things, frankly I think most do. 

[ZA Dater]

11 hours ago, elaine567 said:

That is because you hang about with these rich good looking player guys you know.
Why on earth would they introduce you to the girls they like and why would the girls they hang about with want to be introduced to you?
These girls are looking for slick guys who are charming, good looking and rich like your friends.
Is that you? No
These girls however are not ALL women.
You may hang about with these guys, but you are well out of their league on so many levels.
Always being the "poor relation" is not a great place to be
You thus have a very skewed image of dating.
 

The above just pretty much supports my point of view. Actually I think my view for the most part of 100% representative of how many people who actually have a reasonable choice at dating actually date. Anyone who tells me they have no interest in dating someone attractive, motivated, smart is frankly just deluding themselves. 

Have I seen only one side of the coin, not really, I know other people, some of whom married people and are incredibly unhappy, in fact most are. Sure some of them have kids, again most actually do but guess what when I see them, all i hear are complaints, I have sat a dinners with some of these people and the atmosphere is so poor. Do people make poor choices, sure they do but in the world I live in, a proper loving relationship is rare. 

That fact probably has more to do with my perception and experience than hanging around with guys who have the pick of choice that apparently most do not and then flip the coin over to the abovementioned who in many cases for various reasons were in a hurry to get married and its easy to see neither of these scenarios really works. The ironic thing is the guys with the ability to choose, often pick as poorly as the guys who have little choice at all and the ultimate outcome is rarely any different.

I actually consider myself pretty lucky on balance.

[Foxhall]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The ironic thing is the guys with the ability to choose, often pick as poorly as the guys who have little choice at all and the ultimate outcome is rarely any different.

Yes "be careful what you wish for" perhaps,

I am a little curious were you annoyed in any way by Elaine's post there- I think you are in a state of mind where you are putting yourself down too much,

your self esteem has taken quite a hit,

Id be riled in a sense well even not so much at Elaine, but at myself, am I giving off such an image that I am an easy target for putdowns and so on,

Id be determined to better myself, "dont put yourself down because there is always someone else to do that for you"

Ive mentioned her a few times here "the girl from 2014"-I was at a low ebb at the time, Id been rejected by quite average looking ladies (at least your being rejected by hot ones) , but met this girl by chance with film star looks and so on,

on our first date would you believe I says to her " I am not good enough to date you" ; at the end of the date she says "by the way I see someone who is good enough to date me"

that was a turning point for me- even though we went our separate ways a year later, I knew had a chance again.

the main problem is you believe you are not good enough, you have to get to the point where you think you are capable as the "slick charming rich guys" in the words of Elaine, or alternatively as she is hinting maybe look to a different circle entirely.

What you really need is a hot chick to give you a chance. if they come from a humble background you will have a better chance, a hot chick from an entitled background thats a tough one,

the tricky question is "where do you go from here" but it may only take something small, a break as such to improve your chances.

 

[bene]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Lets not kid ourselves here and say that nobody aspires to date a guy with those things, frankly I think most do. 

This is your inexperience talking. You are so fixated on dating that you don’t see the forest behind the trees - the actual relationship.

Of course there are women who aspire to date a decent reliable family oriented man instead of a player. I am married to one of them and I’d never put up with the playboy type. I don’t care how good looking the players are, this is not the lifestyle I want. Besides, there are more nuances to looks than models vs everyone else. 

What you could learn from these guys is confidence and having a good time. You desperately need to lighten up. But it is mind boggling how you just dismiss most of the population and focus on an extremely narrow demographic as if your player friends experience is the final truth in human behavior.

[elaine567]

8 minutes ago, Foxhall said:

the main problem is you believe you are not good enough, you have to get to the point where you think you are capable as the "slick charming rich guys" in the words of Elaine, or alternatively as she is hinting maybe look to a different circle entirely.

He needs to get away from these slick "professional" players as they are doing him no good whatsoever.
He sticks around as he is then in the company of the women he really wants but "by comparison" he will always be wanting.
He needs to be looked upon as the best option in the group not the worst one.
Also the type of women who flock to rich good looking players are not the type of women who will want anything else.
ZA is also not interested in any "also-rans",  the girls not thought suitable enough to date  by his friends, he is looking for "the best", so it is a lose-lose situation.

7 minutes ago, Foxhall said:

if they come from a humble background you will have a better chance, a hot chick from an entitled background thats a tough one,

He doesn't want women who come form humble backgrounds with "poor" accents and who will be out of their depth at his events.. 
He wants the full package. He wants a super woman who will elevate his status amongst his friends, acquaintances and clients, he has made that clear previously.
The attractive girls who flock to his good looking friends are what he wants...

It is all a tough ask, hence why the continued failure, and the negativity.

[Foxhall]

10 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

He doesn't want women who come form humble backgrounds with "poor" accents and who will be out of their depth at his events.. 
He wants the full package. He wants a super woman who will elevate his status amongst his friends, acquaintances and clients, he has made that clear previously.
The attractive girls who flock to his good looking friends are what he wants.

they can still be sophisticated and attractive but have come from a humble background, 

 there must be someone suitable out there for him.

[elaine567]

7 minutes ago, Foxhall said:

they can still be sophisticated and attractive but have come from a humble background, 

Of course they can, but then they will attract a wider section of the male community, including his player friends and the like...
He is then back competing with the charming, better looking, richer, better educated guys he feels he will lose out to.
 

[BaileyB]

32 minutes ago, Foxhall said:

there must be someone suitable out there for him.

Not according to Zadater. 

And to quite Henry Ford, “whether you believe you can or you believe you can’t - you are right.”

Edited October 6, 2021 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

On 10/6/2021 at 12:22 PM, Foxhall said:

Yes "be careful what you wish for" perhaps,

I am a little curious were you annoyed in any way by Elaine's post there- I think you are in a state of mind where you are putting yourself down too much,

your self esteem has taken quite a hit,

Id be riled in a sense well even not so much at Elaine, but at myself, am I giving off such an image that I am an easy target for putdowns and so on,

Id be determined to better myself, "dont put yourself down because there is always someone else to do that for you"

Ive mentioned her a few times here "the girl from 2014"-I was at a low ebb at the time, Id been rejected by quite average looking ladies (at least your being rejected by hot ones) , but met this girl by chance with film star looks and so on,

on our first date would you believe I says to her " I am not good enough to date you" ; at the end of the date she says "by the way I see someone who is good enough to date me"

that was a turning point for me- even though we went our separate ways a year later, I knew had a chance again.

the main problem is you believe you are not good enough, you have to get to the point where you think you are capable as the "slick charming rich guys" in the words of Elaine, or alternatively as she is hinting maybe look to a different circle entirely.

What you really need is a hot chick to give you a chance. if they come from a humble background you will have a better chance, a hot chick from an entitled background thats a tough one,

the tricky question is "where do you go from here" but it may only take something small, a break as such to improve your chances.

 

There is a lot of very sage advice and observation in the above. Was I annoyed, not really because I am not really annoyed very easily. On any given day I need to deal with tons of annoying things so I have just conditioned myself to not get annoyed by them. 

Well yes I'd agree with you and frankly that chance is the one I have been looking for for make no difference 20 odd years. Whether such a chance actually exists is another matter! You are right a really good experience can restore a lot of self belief, this applies to lots of things in life too. Unfortunately the reverse does exactly the opposite. 

What I have got better at doing is compartmentalizing dating and just putting it in the corner and ignore it. Friend of mine asked about dating and my answer was simply "I just give up" which is easy to say but impossible to do. Maybe I can explain it like this, I'll see someone I find attractive but over time I have just conditioned myself to do this "well Chad is around the corner and she has a bf" and 99.9% of the time this is true so its a non starter. 

I feel just ok being me, no longer do I actually care if miss whoever finds me attractive because I know they will not so I walk around feeling totally free of any degree of attraction at all, which is fine. I work out most days for me, to feel good and try be healthy, my life is not constructed around trying to go out and impress people because to be brutally honest the number of women who have impressed me can barely be counted on two hands. Sure, if someone actually gave me a chance I'd try raise my game but I look around me and logic just kicks in, this is rarely a game where chances are given unless one plays the pity card which I am not going to do.

For me I like to see people succeed at dating, its good to know guys who really are in relationships with amazing people, I only wish them the best. 

[ZA Dater]

On 10/6/2021 at 12:57 PM, elaine567 said:

He needs to get away from these slick "professional" players as they are doing him no good whatsoever.
He sticks around as he is then in the company of the women he really wants but "by comparison" he will always be wanting.
He needs to be looked upon as the best option in the group not the worst one.
Also the type of women who flock to rich good looking players are not the type of women who will want anything else.
ZA is also not interested in any "also-rans",  the girls not thought suitable enough to date  by his friends, he is looking for "the best", so it is a lose-lose situation.

He doesn't want women who come form humble backgrounds with "poor" accents and who will be out of their depth at his events.. 
He wants the full package. He wants a super woman who will elevate his status amongst his friends, acquaintances and clients, he has made that clear previously.
The attractive girls who flock to his good looking friends are what he wants...

It is all a tough ask, hence why the continued failure, and the negativity.

There is some truth here but you ignore the fact that a lot of people are quite rightly aspirational daters to borrow a phrase from someone else and that I agree with. A is a good example of that, she can have a choice of guys. If you are not aspiring to something then what really is the point?

No I am looked upon as the "odd one" which is fine I wear that badge with pride, I can stand toe to toe with most people in conversation but I fail miserably at the "fun" aspect of conversation. You right I do not want someone like that, again where is the benefit for me? There is not one so in that instance I'd rather just go alone. 

Everyone should aspire to the package which makes them feel something, this being different for everyone. If I am not seen as the best option in the group then I really could not care less, if she wants the guy who just wants one night of fun then so be it. 

[ZA Dater]

On 10/6/2021 at 1:11 PM, Foxhall said:

they can still be sophisticated and attractive but have come from a humble background, 

 there must be someone suitable out there for him.

This becomes a bit problematic in a sense because I know what I like and those around seem to think "that will do" when it comes to me, people they themselves would not date are suddenly fantastic for me and here I need to be VERY clear. This is a physical looks issue, heck even those guys try and extoll the virtues of these people but my response is always this "if she is so fantastic why are you not dating her" that closes the topic completely. This did used to annoy me and what does annoy me more is when I do by some miracle find someone I do really like then the same degree of "selling" is never there by those who really tried to set me up with people I was not interested in. I honestly get the impression certain people around me do not want me to succeed at dating.

I do think it must be really nice to experience mutual attraction, it must be great to have that sort of connection with someone, me, I am just very flawed in many unreconcilable ways, no experience and perhaps a personality which rarely makes an appearance unless I really know the person. 

Actually to some degree I think I have met quite a few people suitable but I cant change the fundamentals, like I wont change my likes I cant expect them to change theirs, I can try be the best version of myself on any given day but that is actually not enough.

Everything with dating I have done has yielded nothing but I have got experience some great moments where just for a time I was totally happy and had about 95% of all the things I actually wanted in life. If that is all the universe is going to give me, well then I am thankful for it.

 

[elaine567]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

you ignore the fact that a lot of people are quite rightly aspirational daters to borrow a phrase from someone else and that I agree with. A is a good example of that, she can have a choice of guys. If you are not aspiring to something then what really is the point?

The object of the exercise is to win something realistic, not to hanker after the unobtainable and never win.
Aspirational dating is nuts unless you have something extra special to offer that overrides your natural place in the pecking order..
Talent,  charm, popularity, humour, wealth, power...

[Weezy1973]

7 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

The object of the exercise is to win something realistic, not to hanker after the unobtainable and never win.
Aspirational dating is nuts unless you have something extra special to offer that overrides your natural place in the pecking order..
Talent,  charm, popularity, humour, wealth, power...

Also aspirational dating is actually the reason that people often struggle with OLD. The phenomenon is best captured by the seemingly ubiquitous sentiment “The people I’m attracted to aren’t interested in me, and the people that are interested in me, I don’t find attractive.”

It’s why attractive women admit they get tons of messages on OLD, but very few from men they’re interested in. And men complain of getting either no matches, or no responses from the messages they send out. 
 

 

[Weezy1973]

16 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

This is a physical looks issue, heck even those guys try and extoll the virtues of these people but my response is always this "if she is so fantastic why are you not dating her" that closes the topic completely. This did used to annoy me and what does annoy me more is when I do by some miracle find someone I do really like then the same degree of "selling" is never there by those who really tried to set me up with people I was not interested in. I honestly get the impression certain people around me do not want me to succeed at dating.

 

Your player friends are very attractive and therefore can date very attractive women. You’re not very attractive and therefore can’t. That’s why they’re setting you up with women that are not as attractive as the women they date. 
 

The other side of the “aspirational dating” phenomenon is the “matching phenomenon”. And that’s the tendency for couples to match in terms of attractiveness. And most people realize this at some point. So if you want dating success you’re going to have to date someone at your level of attractiveness. Your friends realize this.

[elaine567]

5 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

his becomes a bit problematic in a sense because I know what I like and those around seem to think "that will do" when it comes to me, people they themselves would not date are suddenly fantastic for me and here I need to be VERY clear. This is a physical looks issue, heck even

those guys try and extoll the virtues of these people but my response is always this "if she is so fantastic why are you not dating her" that closes the topic completely. 

We have been here before, I doubt they don't want you to succeed, I guess they don't want to  be involved in you crashing and burning spectacularly.
People usually want to set up those they see as a good match, those they see as having a good chance of success, they don't want to be blamed for a failure that was kind of obvious from the start...

No-one wanted you to try and date A, as they saw it was doomed to fail and sure enough it did...
They knew better than you, but you were not listening... 

16 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

those guys try and extoll the virtues of these people but my response is always this "if she is so fantastic why are you not dating her" that closes the topic completely.

Of course it does.
They are well aware of how ridiculous  an assertion that is. 

[elaine567]

5 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Your player friends are very attractive and therefore can date very attractive women.

...and they are fun, sexy, charming and rich.
All in all a very desirable package.

[Weezy1973]

13 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

...and they are fun, sexy, charming and rich.
All in all a very desirable package.

Yup - all those qualities go into overall attractiveness.

[Foxhall]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

So if you want dating success you’re going to have to date someone at your level of attractiveness. Your friends realize this.

This would appear the sensible option,

Yet Id say that he is entitled to dare to dream,

hes possibly just a serious underachiever in the dating world (many guys are overachievers)

As far as you can assess someone on an internet forum, I think it is fair to say there is more in him, there is a lot of personality that comes through in the writing and that "super woman" is still a realistic aspiration,

In another ten years or so, he can settle for companionship with a plain Jane, but for now dont give up on what he wants.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

The object of the exercise is to win something realistic, not to hanker after the unobtainable and never win.
Aspirational dating is nuts unless you have something extra special to offer that overrides your natural place in the pecking order..
Talent,  charm, popularity, humour, wealth, power...

It really depends what you want versus what you will settle for, I know what I want and I know what I will never settle for, the rest is grey area. 

[ZA Dater]

55 minutes ago, Foxhall said:

This would appear the sensible option,

Yet Id say that he is entitled to dare to dream,

hes possibly just a serious underachiever in the dating world (many guys are overachievers)

As far as you can assess someone on an internet forum, I think it is fair to say there is more in him, there is a lot of personality that comes through in the writing and that "super woman" is still a realistic aspiration,

In another ten years or so, he can settle for companionship with a plain Jane, but for now dont give up on what he wants.

That will never be a viable option for me, that being the case I'd rather just have nothing. Sure, people do not get it why I would give up sex, companionship, family instead of just resorting to "that will do", its really simple because it wont. I know far too many people who adopted variations of that for various reasons, almost all of them are unhappy. 

What I cannot do is walk around and let all of this define me, yes people always ask why I have no partner, yes I get teased about never getting laid and yes the general pressure of society to conform is there, all of these take some degree of strength to deal with but all of them are to me preferable to "I will just settle". 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Also aspirational dating is actually the reason that people often struggle with OLD. The phenomenon is best captured by the seemingly ubiquitous sentiment “The people I’m attracted to aren’t interested in me, and the people that are interested in me, I don’t find attractive.”

It’s why attractive women admit they get tons of messages on OLD, but very few from men they’re interested in. And men complain of getting either no matches, or no responses from the messages they send out. 
 

Yes well lets be honest looks count for everything at OLD as they do for most people in most settings most of the time. Cant say anyone has ever taken to me because I enjoy history and US politics. The one concession I do make when it comes to looks is they get you in the door but if you cannot walk some sort of talk then while you have an advantage with some you may not have as big advantage as it may seem.

At the end of the day its a game of odd and some just have better odds than others, does not mean you cannot aim for the same outcome. 

[Easter Bunny]

On 5/2/2021 at 6:25 AM, ZA Dater said:

This may prove to be a deeply unpopular topic so mods if you deem fit either delete or close. Anyone here thought about this or done it? If you have how did your results change when looking and how did they change?

Is there any advantage in this, clearly there is not but let us suppose doing so means you perhaps are able to get a better idea how looks impede or assist you when searching. Lets also assume nobody who looks ever gets any critique, thus this might be a way to get some form of critique. 

I'll admit to having done this before and I can already see which members here are going to climb into me for doing it, do not worry I have thick skin. Why did I do it, well after years of various OLD platforms and not going any attractive matches I wanted to see how a change of look would change my prospects but I also wanted to see how a change of look would change the level of engagement. 

For the purposes of this I used no face pictures at all, merely body pictures (I have established my face is a serious dating impediment but then again it would seem all of my appearance is an impediment) of a more built person, nothing dramatic and the results were more matches but more interesting was a different level of engagement, suddenly women were actually making an effort in conversation, they were asking things, they actually wanted to meet up. Using my own pictures, I seldom had any matches and when I did the conversation was like squeezing water from a stone, I always got the impression I had to sell myself to them, whereas now they were selling themselves to me.

More amusing still was the fact that MANY told me looks do not matter, well they did actually but you can draw the lines between the dots here. Did I got and meet any of these people, yes I did actually and you know what I actually did not care either because on each occasion the conversation was very good before meeting, it was a case "you are so interesting to chat, you have such an interesting life" but suddenly in person those aspects did not matter. I repeat again "looks do not matter to me". 

Would I do this again, absolutely not because its pointless and I have proven all I needed to prove with this. Did it make me feel a bit better about things, in a way yes because if you can understand why something happens than you can rationalise it.

there is no need to catfish when you are the real deal. by that i mean when you are 100% sure of yourself, and accepting of yourself. online platforms only really have appearance to go by, so you are not really testing anything out that isn't already known. women do judge by appearance, but not as much as men do. you are forgetting the most important part of attracting a mate. how you carry yourself. quit using apps and work on yourself. become the best version of yourself, and don't seek other people's validation. seek it from within. when you have yourself right, you will exude you have your s*** together and women will notice it. 

dating platforms are for the desperate, financial predators, horny, and the weak. They usually lack what it takes to meet someone in real life, or they are looking for an easy hook up or their sugar daddy. cold approach is the best way. only do it when you have made yourself the best you can be, and you have fixed all of your insecurities. you will also find it is more fun, and more rewarding. you also will be the one doing the choosing, not them.  never forget you are the prize not them. when you have that attitude your life will change. 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

We have been here before, I doubt they don't want you to succeed, I guess they don't want to  be involved in you crashing and burning spectacularly.
People usually want to set up those they see as a good match, those they see as having a good chance of success, they don't want to be blamed for a failure that was kind of obvious from the start...

No-one wanted you to try and date A, as they saw it was doomed to fail and sure enough it did...
They knew better than you, but you were not listening... 

Of course it does.
They are well aware of how ridiculous  an assertion that is. 

No its about putting me in a pigeon hole "that is good enough for him". If it was so fantastic they would only be too interested in these women themselves. I have just learnt to brush off and ignore this nonsense. You'd be surprised at the stupid match ups which have been attempted with me, people I knew would not be viable from the start!