Catfish

[elaine567]

52 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

They get me through the day just fine.

Yes but you are at work.
We all go into work mode at work (when we are working), but few of us take that work mode back home and into our social lives.
We don't treat our SO, friends, relatives, potential dates like clients...

Until you start being more personable, "human" and "normal",  no women will ever want anything to do with you.
Trouble is, your quirky unsocial behaviour would normally attract a woman who was also a bit "out there" i.e quirky, shy, awkward and quiet or perhaps loud and pushy, but you don't want that, you want the standard desirable woman that every other guy wants too, hot, young, extrovert, fun, classy and sociable...
It just doesn't work that way.

Your mantra of trying to prove every one wrong, is working against you.
I am who I am, I WILL find my princess...
No, sorry.
You are who you are and no-one you want will want you, just like they haven't in the past 20 years to be blunt.

Time to vow to become someone else, time to actually work on yourself to be someone women may actually like. 
You spout about wanting to be the best and "struggling", but nothing has essentially changed since you showed up here in April 2015; you have actually done very little to change anything.

[elaine567]

I just read Prudence's post.
She makes sense.
We may not go as far as to take acting classes but many of us have had to slip into another persona, in order to succeed at work or  in our social lives or just in everyday living.
I guess "business mode" is your version of this and whilst it works well at work and gets you through, it is useless in social situations and as for dating it is a disaster...

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

I just read Prudence's post.
She makes sense.

But @ZA Dater doesn’t actually, deep down, want to succeed. He’s too afraid.

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Nobody is saying you have to change your personality - just your behaviour. 
 

This is a common perception for people on the spectrum. We don’t come across as warm and fuzzy because we’re not, in a neurotypical way at least. Yet we are very warm, very sensitive and very engaged with people we know and trust. 
 

But most of us manage to find partners, despite all that. I’ve posted several ideas upthread, many of which have worked for me personally, but since you don’t fancy anything that pushes you out of your comfort zone, you’ll never know what might work for you. 
 

Your other option is to mask. Masking is exhausting, and not really sustainable without periods of downtime to recharge, but it can be effective in making connections. And, since you tried your hand at catfishing, you might not be totally opposed to the idea. The best way to approach that IMV is to take a class in acting. Learn the basic skills of inhabiting, and projecting, another character. People who are naturally introverted and introspective are usually the best actors, so you should find it pretty easy to gain that skill set. Then, design a character - the suave, cool dude whose charm wins the women over - and develop the character as you would a role you were playing for a stage play or a movie. Think about his backstory, his habits, how he walks, how he dresses, his manner of speaking, etc. You know the kind of guys who fit the bill, so you can draw on their habits etc in fleshing out the character. 
 

Then, when you got out and meet someone, put on that character. Pretend it’s a scene from a play, and act as him. Leave yourself at home, and just be this other dude. The more authentically you can pull it off, the easier it will become slipping into that skin. It’s kind of “fake it till you make it” on steroids. 
 

If you get rejected, the bonus is, it’s not you being rejected, it’s your character. And if you have some luck, then you can slowly progress things and over time allow yourself into any relationship that develops. And when it feels safe enough, you’ll find that you’re allowing yourself to engage as yourself. 

This is a particularly good idea in many respects and one I have actually tried but the issue is it is not sustainable at all and the act is exhausting to keep up but granted it is an idea which could work, I have just felt extremely fake doing it and I just become one of those guys being fake for the sake of it and unlike them the reward I get is being rejected and then feeling even worse about myself because if the best act I could put one was not good enough. You are particularly smart so I know you can understand the other side of the coin when doing this.

I have been lucky to have enough people around who do dating pretty well in the sense they never struggle to find someone they find attractive, its not like they have to do what I do and I have seen what sort of works and yes I have even tried some of those things myself, he biggest of which is to muster up as much confidence as I can, I'll admit it that is pretty hard to do and to do that I need to put myself into work mode because its there I am most confident and its there I feel the most 'useful". Sure when I spend time at the car club I run I drop this to an extent but what needs to be realised is everything revolves around work to some extent, its never not there.

People have said nice things about me to other which is nice, its good to be complimented but what I have learnt is again this is two sided, being complimented does not equate to value or interest.

 

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Yes but you are at work.
We all go into work mode at work (when we are working), but few of us take that work mode back home and into our social lives.
We don't treat our SO, friends, relatives, potential dates like clients...

Until you start being more personable, "human" and "normal",  no women will ever want anything to do with you.
Trouble is, your quirky unsocial behaviour would normally attract a woman who was also a bit "out there" i.e quirky, shy, awkward and quiet or perhaps loud and pushy, but you don't want that, you want the standard desirable woman that every other guy wants too, hot, young, extrovert, fun, classy and sociable...
It just doesn't work that way.

Your mantra of trying to prove every one wrong, is working against you.
I am who I am, I WILL find my princess...
No, sorry.
You are who you are and no-one you want will want you, just like they haven't in the past 20 years to be blunt.

Time to vow to become someone else, time to actually work on yourself to be someone women may actually like. 
You spout about wanting to be the best and "struggling", but nothing has essentially changed since you showed up here in April 2015; you have actually done very little to change anything.

I am effectively at work 24/7 because my mind is always there, it fills the void of having no social life and nobody. The point being if I think about things I actually like I can think less about what I do not have. 

I look at it this way, line up 10 women and I will probably dismiss 9 so its not like there is a massive pool to begin with so when I look at that, does it really matter who I am because the odds are so small anyway, I can just about bumble through dating, find the odd "she is really great, I'll get an hour of attention out of her before she moves on to a guy she does want". Fact of the matter, women like the helpful kind me, they wont sleep with that person or date that person but they will be very kind to that person and truth be told I prefer that kindness to rejection on an given day.

Again the cake comparison is how I think of this, a few crumbs of good rich cake is better than a full slice of bland cake. The other truth is people around me just tell me to be positive about dating so I just fake this because its a lot easier than just admitting how bad it actually is, if people around me are succeeding with it, then that is good, embrace the success of others is my view on this. 

I have tried to incorporate the ideas from here countless time but even when I rarely have the right audience there is always someone better so either I take the loss and feel horrible or I put the work cap on, take it on the chin, focus on something else and just be. Furthermore I am pretty happy with the person I am, sure it gets me no dates, nobody remotely attractive finds me attractive but I can almost sit back simply write it off to a series of bad decisions and circumstances coupled with a face from a pig. Most of the my life I have been teased about something or another and its made me strong so yes if a person is looking for someone to go into battle with I am that person because little actually bothers me and I'll fight till the end, if they are looking for someone to sit next to and have whisper sweet nothing into their ear, even I have to concede I am not that person.

Yea with A could drop all this heavy armour for an extended time and I felt really good, people saw the difference and it was because for once I actually had a lovely circumstance not this continual void I carry around and try fill with any manner of things, work being the most obvious one.

Everyday I work out and I enjoy the solitude it offers to focus my mind and to let things go. I was very shy when I first met K, I then had good reason to actually try be a better me because on some level I actually thought I was in the game, I changed my look, tried to be more outgoing, tried to do things differently but when all that came crashing down there was little reason to do more, I kept being that better person but the incentive was gone. The rare times I do meet someone I like and see some potential with I need to raise my game but mostly now I have little reason to because, well there will always be something wrong with me and someone else will simply be better so why bother? 

I can hold onto the idea but crucially the belief I can ever attain that idea is sadly mostly gone, replaced by a sense of "well this is what I can get, I'd rather have nothing". I can sit and critique myself, curse myself for not doing certain things, not saying certain things but I spent years doing that and it did nothing positive to me. "What if' is not a good game to play and really I have so many of those in dating.

I regret a lot.

[Foxhall]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Furthermore I am pretty happy with the person I am, sure it gets me no dates, nobody remotely attractive finds me attractive but I can almost sit back simply write it off to a series of bad decisions and circumstances coupled with a face from a pig.

Yes the main thing anyway is not to get too down over it, the woman you want would enhance your life, but you can still be happy enough without her either,

As others have said, it is probably a lot harder for a woman to be considered ugly than it is for a man. I used to think I was ugly but in reality I am not or was not.

Im probably shyer than you are funnily enough, I would not fancy all that meeting and greeting at high end functions and so on, though I am reasonably comfortable with women in one on one situations- although that did not happen overnight.

but that is good you are willing to put yourself out there anyway, you are not sitting at home,

Yes just keep building your knowledge, expanding your interests, have something interesting to say when you are on a date, dress well is important also, good grooming. (It could be all as simple as that)

of course they have to interest you also which only happens occasionally!

at the end of the day they all have their quirks and if you do meet someone other issues will arise then,  so not worrying too much about it is important too.

[ZA Dater]

23 hours ago, Foxhall said:

Yes the main thing anyway is not to get too down over it, the woman you want would enhance your life, but you can still be happy enough without her either,

As others have said, it is probably a lot harder for a woman to be considered ugly than it is for a man. I used to think I was ugly but in reality I am not or was not.

Im probably shyer than you are funnily enough, I would not fancy all that meeting and greeting at high end functions and so on, though I am reasonably comfortable with women in one on one situations- although that did not happen overnight.

but that is good you are willing to put yourself out there anyway, you are not sitting at home,

Yes just keep building your knowledge, expanding your interests, have something interesting to say when you are on a date, dress well is important also, good grooming. (It could be all as simple as that)

of course they have to interest you also which only happens occasionally!

at the end of the day they all have their quirks and if you do meet someone other issues will arise then,  so not worrying too much about it is important too.

You are right, had quite a pleasant interaction with a waitress today at another place I frequent on rare occasions. A smile can be quite nice.

[Foxhall]

Good stuff,

taking small victories the way forward.

[ZA Dater]

19 hours ago, Foxhall said:

Good stuff,

taking small victories the way forward.

So I went back to the same coffee shop today with a friend who does do pretty well at dating to see how she reacts to him versus me and this was pretty predictable , all I can say is the gift of charm is a good gift to have, my rather concise approach to verbal communication is perhaps not best suited.

Suffice to say she at least brought me the same order I had yesterday without prompting which was nice but yeah I think waitresses are fundamentally a bad idea because lets face it they get hit on all day and by virtue of their job they need to be friendly so any interest would be next to impossible to discern.

It might seem odd but I am getting used to the feeling of not chasing so and so and just accepting I wont have that. If anything this has opened my eyes to the fact that objectively nothing that dating offers cant be bought in some way or other. As I said to my friend this morning,  I am simply tired of trying to sell myself to people, tired of trying to make myself attractive when there is no real reason for me to do so. If someone likes me and makes it obvious enough for me to notice then I might bother (assuming I find her attractive enough) but otherwise I simply cannot be bothered to put in all the effort for no reward whatsoever.

I'll enjoy the odd smile here and there but just see it for what it is, someone being friendly, nothing more.

See Elaine I do live in reality.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

It might seem odd but I am getting used to the feeling of not chasing so and so and just accepting I wont have that.

Acceptance would be great for your mental well being. But we all know how your pattern goes. And acceptance isn’t part of it.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Weezy1973

[elaine567]

I am a bit surprised it has taken you so long to realise that service workers ie waitresses, nurses,  workers in retail, yoga teachers, physical trainers etc. in fact anyone whose job entails being nice and friendly to the public are difficult to interpret and difficult to pick up as so many are tired of being hit on at work by hopeful potential suitors...

What "effort" did you actually make?   You spoke to a waitress -  big deal.
You found your friend put on the charm and got a better response.
People tend to respond well to friendliness and charm, that is a given.
You noted your concise approach was wanting, so you, instead of trying to think of ways to up your game and get a better result, have decided to give up...again...

[ZA Dater]

14 hours ago, elaine567 said:

I am a bit surprised it has taken you so long to realise that service workers ie waitresses, nurses,  workers in retail, yoga teachers, physical trainers etc. in fact anyone whose job entails being nice and friendly to the public are difficult to interpret and difficult to pick up as so many are tired of being hit on at work by hopeful potential suitors...

What "effort" did you actually make?   You spoke to a waitress -  big deal.
You found your friend put on the charm and got a better response.
People tend to respond well to friendliness and charm, that is a given.
You noted your concise approach was wanting, so you, instead of trying to think of ways to up your game and get a better result, have decided to give up...again...

Why would say yes to me not and not the tons of other patrons who probably flirt with her on a daily basis? I cant think of one good reason why I'd be a better option than them. Honestly when you remove that group of people from the "pool" for me is least it leaves the pool pretty much empty.

In any case what would a better result be here? 

The reality is I simply do not know how to show interest and I never have. Unless by some miracle the following happens I am always going to be at a loss here

1: She shows some sort of interest

2: Somehow I get to spend a lot of time with her so I can actually show who I am as a person

Even then 2 is not really much of a method because the interest is inherently not there. There is one thing that does make me sleep a bit easier about all of this, I tried using Tinder in different locations and like many on this forum I found a very different outcome, actually matching with attractive looking people. SO while I cant move to those countries at least I know that actually mutual attraction does sort of exist for me, I am not hulk ugly. 

 

[elaine567]

Ok she is just a waitress in a café, why would you think she would be that popular?
Many people do not even notice serving staff,  let alone seek to date them. 
Just because you find her an attractive dating prospect doesn't mean others are queueing round the block.

[Weezy1973]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

while I cant move to those countries at least I know that actually mutual attraction does sort of exist for me,

 

1. Why can’t you move?

2. How do things play out in your mind if/when you do find mutual attraction?

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

1. Why can’t you move?

2. How do things play out in your mind if/when you do find mutual attraction?

I like life here. If the price of that is being single forever so be it. My life is here, its not a case of suddenly transferring it somewhere else, much less a country where English is probably pretty far down the list of spoken languages. As I am constantly told its is apparently me who is 100% at fault and everyone else is perfect so how does that scenario change somewhere else, in short it does not. 

To be fair I have not thought that far I do not make a habit of playing out dating scenarios in my mind, its the biggest way of ultimately being disappointed. 

Maybe I have simply just moved dating from "I really want that" to "well it would be nice to have but not essential". A was probably as nice as it can realistically get me for me, I very nearly walked out of a date a few weeks ago because I simply was not interested in sitting there asking all the questions, I simply refuse to do this anymore, if she cannot be bothered to show some interest then I am going to show none. 

I think some people can actually have the seemingly perfect life, I know a handful of these people, great wives, great kids, great life and it must be nice to have that. Sitting across from someone who makes me feel nothing is really not my idea of that. The things I am passionate about in life bring me more happiness. I'd love affection, it must be really nice to experience that but again if the best I can do is someone I do not find attractive then what is the point. If the only way to get is to pay, what have I really accomplished, nothing at all and once again its pointless.

Maybe I should make a concerted effort to finish the novel I am writing, writing that I can at least create the sort of life I would actually want from a relationship point of view, even if it is purely fictional. Perhaps fiction is actually a better place to live when it comes to dating than reality, looking at the number of romantic movies would suggest many people enjoy living in that world.

[elaine567]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

, its not a case of suddenly transferring it somewhere else, much less a country where English is probably pretty far down the list of spoken languages.

Where exactly in the world did you find these attractive matches?

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Where exactly in the world did you find these attractive matches?

Eastern Europe. 

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Eastern Europe. 

Ok.
So you do understand why these women would be matching with you?

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Ok.
So you do understand why these women would be matching with you?

I left out Sweden and Croatia.

Seeing as all they know about me is my picture, much the same as those who match with me here, I do not even put my location on my profile so they actually have no idea where I am from when they match with me.

At least I know I am attractive to some attractive people.

[Weezy1973]

On 10/22/2021 at 5:52 AM, ZA Dater said:

 

At least I know I am attractive to some attractive people.

And as long as you don’t have to take the risk of any real intimacy, I’m sure this can be reassuring. Moving to any of those places would shatter that pretty quickly though.

[BaileyB]

On 10/22/2021 at 7:52 AM, ZA Dater said:

At least I know I am attractive to some attractive people.

Dare I say it, you are likely one of many men to whom these women “match.” 

But, if you see this as a feather in your cap, that’s your prerogative. 

[BaileyB]

35 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

And as long as you don’t have to take the risk of any real intimacy, I’m sure this can be reassuring. Moving to any of those places would shatter that pretty quickly though.

It’s fantasy, in much the same way that the waitress, the yoga teacher, the models, and the other unavailable women are also a fantasy…

These women have no romantic interest. 

It never fails to amaze me how men who have difficulty with dating tend to fall for the waitresses of the world - these women are paid to be kind to customers. She is doing her job. But, that gets misinterpreted as attraction when it’s just kindness. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

12 hours ago, BaileyB said:

 

It never fails to amaze me how men who have difficulty with dating tend to fall for the waitresses of the world - these women are paid to be kind to customers. She is doing her job. But, that gets misinterpreted as attraction when it’s just kindness. 

Well I guess the above is pretty indicative of the dating world for many. Makes me wonder why I seldom come across genuinely kind attractive people.

 

[elaine567]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Well I guess the above is pretty indicative of the dating world for many.

But waitresses doing their job are not part of "the dating world".
They are an obvious focus of attention for guys who do not get to interact with women normally.
Waitresses are also sitting ducks, an easy target.
She can't get away as it is her place of work and she can't easily avoid anyone she would rather not talk to either.
Many waitresses are pretty good at turning on the charm to make people feel good and keep coming back.
That is seen as "interest" when all she is doing is her job.

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, elaine567 said:

But waitresses doing their job are not part of "the dating world".
They are an obvious focus of attention for guys who do not get to interact with women normally.
Waitresses are also sitting ducks, an easy target.
She can't get away as it is her place of work and she can't easily avoid anyone she would rather not talk to either.
Many waitresses are pretty good at turning on the charm to make people feel good and keep coming back.
That is seen as "interest" when all she is doing is her job.

Care to elaborate what you term "normal interaction". 

It's telling I never bother seeing anything into this charm. Its just telling to me how unfriendly most women I come across are but I forgot I must put in all the effort.

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by ZA Dater