Catfish

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

It's telling I never bother seeing anything into this charm. Its just telling to me how unfriendly most women I come across are but I forgot I must put in all the effort.

It may have escaped your notice but you are a man, and men even in 2021 are expected to initiate, to lead, to express interest, to plan dates, to entertain, to charm, to make women feel comfortable and safe, to romance, to seduce, to keep the momentum going, to make her feel good about herself and you.
It is up to you how much effort you want to put in, but moaning about it is never going to win over fair maiden.
Highly desirable people tend not to put in much extra effort, unless they are chasing after someone out of their league.
Average people may not need to put in much extra effort either as long as they stay in their lane...
Anyone over-reaching will always be the one who has to put in extra effort in order to win.
You are almost always over reaching...

ALSO 
Sorry but as you are the hand shake guy, why you would think you wouldn't  need to put in any effort?
Why are most women unfriendly towards you? Because nothing about you I guess is causing them to relax and be friendly You are likely rubbing then up the wrong way.
If all the  women you meet are offering you a handshake, they are not viewing you as a potential bf or even a friend, so you are coming from a pretty low point dating-wise , so you definitely will need to put in extra  effort just to get to the starting line.   

Your player friends are also putting in loads of effort, of course they are. It may seem seamless and natural but believe me they are working hard.
Without saying a word they are probably half way there. Eyes, mouth, mannerisms,  and posture can be very illuminating and express interest, fun, sexiness...
Then there is the "patter" - wit,  jokes, banter, anecdotes,.. all designed to stimulate and keep interest... Women are not all the same so they will need to modify and change "on the hoof", so to speak.

So, lest we all forget, it is only YOU that must work at it... 
You are wallowing in self pity.

Edited October 24, 2021 by elaine567

[ZA Dater]

17 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

It may have escaped your notice but you are a man, and men even in 2021 are expected to initiate, to lead, to express interest, to plan dates, to entertain, to charm, to make women feel comfortable and safe, to romance, to seduce, to keep the momentum going, to make her feel good about herself and you.
It is up to you how much effort you want to put in, but moaning about it is never going to win over fair maiden.
Highly desirable people tend not to put in much extra effort, unless they are chasing after someone out of their league.
Average people may not need to put in much extra effort either as long as they stay in their lane...
Anyone over-reaching will always be the one who has to put in extra effort in order to win.
You are almost always over reaching...

ALSO 
Sorry but as you are the hand shake guy, why you would think you wouldn't  need to put in any effort?
Why are most women unfriendly towards you? Because nothing about you I guess is causing them to relax and be friendly You are likely rubbing then up the wrong way.
If all the  women you meet are offering you a handshake, they are not viewing you as a potential bf or even a friend, so you are coming from a pretty low point dating-wise , so you definitely will need to put in extra  effort just to get to the starting line.   

Your player friends are also putting in loads of effort, of course they are. It may seem seamless and natural but believe me they are working hard.
Without saying a word they are probably half way there. Eyes, mouth, mannerisms,  and posture can be very illuminating and express interest, fun, sexiness...
Then there is the "patter" - wit,  jokes, banter, anecdotes,.. all designed to stimulate and keep interest... Women are not all the same so they will need to modify and change "on the hoof", so to speak.

So, lest we all forget, it is only YOU that must work at it... 
You are wallowing in self pity.

I fundamentally disagree with that first paragraph but it illustrates my mostly lack of interest in most of the dates I have, if they can't put in any effort I see no reason to either. At a minimum at least try and look good, honestly is that too much for ask?

Mostly I have found the more effort I put in the less I get out and the more disappointed I ultimately become. Handshake is a pure physical attraction thing in my view, nothing else.

I think of there is some base most people of their expectations are moderate can probably find dating enjoyable to a degree.

Players get it right because there is some physical attraction to get them a look. The banter just builds in that. 

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I forgot I must put in all the effort.

 

Just because you don’t notice the effort others are putting in, doesn’t mean they’re not putting in effort. Pretty much every woman you’re attracted to has put in considerable effort into her appearance. Diet, exercise, hair, makeup, clothing choices etc. All of them. 
 

And you’re not a natural with women so of course you’re going to have to work harder if you want to succeed. Like literally everything else in life! Why so much disdain about actually having to work hard at something? Some people have won the genetic lottery. The rest of us haven’t. So we work harder. 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Weezy1973

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Mostly I have found the more effort I put in the less I get out and the more disappointed I ultimately become.

That is because you mostly put in a little effort into women you have not a hope in hell with.
Your "effort" is to hope to get them into the friendzone and that is in dating language no effort at all
 

42 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Handshake is a pure physical attraction thing in my view, nothing else.

In your view...

You are, according to you, business-like, stiff and formal and dry and emotionless, that is why they shake hands with you.
They are merely following your lead.

[BaileyB]

11 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Makes me wonder why I seldom come across genuinely kind attractive people.

If this is true, perhaps you should just give up. Why bother trying? Why continue posting…

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Just because you don’t notice the effort others are putting in, doesn’t mean they’re not putting in effort. Pretty much every woman you’re attracted to has put in considerable effort into her appearance. Diet, exercise, hair, makeup, clothing choices etc. All of them. 
 

And you’re not a natural with women so of course you’re going to have to work harder if you want to succeed. Like literally everything else in life! Why so much disdain about actually having to work hard at something? Some people have won the genetic lottery. The rest of us haven’t. So we work harder. 

I do not disagree and to be fair I do most of those barring the face paint. I think what is not becoming clear is a scenario where I meet people who do none of those, how would you feel about that, I can accept not everyone is going to be athletic and that's fine but I can really respect people who try. Trying has to go beyond that those things, though, I really do try to come across well but when I sit there and I get nothing back from the person what I am supposed to do?

As for working harder, to what end really? To have a remote "chance"? Working harder is absolutely worthwhile if you can actually accomplish what you want to, do you agree with me on this point?

Is there much point to it when effectively you land up with a half baked potato?

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

That is because you mostly put in a little effort into women you have not a hope in hell with.
Your "effort" is to hope to get them into the friendzone and that is in dating language no effort at all
 

In your view...

You are, according to you, business-like, stiff and formal and dry and emotionless, that is why they shake hands with you.
They are merely following your lead.

Yes and I am also honest, kind. thoughtful and loyal but again those qualities do not seem to rank.

So tell me this when you date how do you assess who you actually have a hope with, what is the rationale here and is it a case of "well she is too good I cant have her but maybe that one is possible but you know she is not tall enough, that one over there has an awkward face, that one is too skinny, that one is too clever but maybe I work with that one who well is not what I want but apparently I am lesser than these other people so that must be what I can get".

I do what I do to avoid the above ridiculous scenario. 

[elaine567]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

Yes and I am also honest, kind. thoughtful and loyal but again those qualities do not seem to rank.

Of course they rank. 
BUT they are not the stand out things that matter  when you lock eyes across the room.
These things are for when you have attracted them and are getting to know them and are in fact pretty common traits in normal people. 
You cannot corner that end of the market. 
It is also not an either/or
It is perfectly possible to be fun, handsome and sexy AND be honest, kind, thoughtful and loyal too. 

14 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

So tell me this when you date how do you assess who you actually have a hope with,

By being completely honest with yourself... no impossible challenges and cut out the delusional thinking...
Most people know early doors where they stand in the dating pecking order so unless something substantial changes, then they know their pool.
You are always gazing longingly across to other men's pools and are ignoring your own.

[ZA Dater]

45 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Of course they rank. 
BUT they are not the stand out things that matter  when you lock eyes across the room.
These things are for when you have attracted them and are getting to know them and are in fact pretty common traits in normal people. 
You cannot corner that end of the market. 
It is also not an either/or
It is perfectly possible to be fun, handsome and sexy AND be honest, kind, thoughtful and loyal too. 

By being completely honest with yourself... no impossible challenges and cut out the delusional thinking...
Most people know early doors where they stand in the dating pecking order so unless something substantial changes, then they know their pool.
You are always gazing longingly across to other men's pools and are ignoring your own.

You did not answer my primary question.....how do people know this? So what you really are saying it once again comes back to "well she likes you, that is the best you can do accept that, irrespective if I find her attractive or not" Or am I wrong?

Edited October 24, 2021 by ZA Dater

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

 Working harder is absolutely worthwhile if you can actually accomplish what you want to, do you agree with me on this point?

You don't have a goal though. There's a spectrum from low commitment to high commitment when it comes to sexual relationships. On one end is the one night stand, and on the other end is marriage with kids. And lots of options in the middle. What is your goal? Once you establish that you can work hard to achieve it. But you're loathe to actually set a concrete goal. Tough to work hard towards something where there isn't a "thing" that you're working hard towards.

20 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You did not answer my primary question.....how do people know this? So what you really are saying it once again comes back to "well she likes you, that is the best you can do accept that, irrespective if I find her attractive or not" Or am I wrong?

Like attracts like. That's it. What's your attractiveness level. Women that are at that same level are your match. Then as you get to know each other over time, you can assess compatibility. Oh, and having a relationship goal in mind, as mentioned above, is a huge part of compatibility...

[ZA Dater]

40 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

You don't have a goal though. There's a spectrum from low commitment to high commitment when it comes to sexual relationships. On one end is the one night stand, and on the other end is marriage with kids. And lots of options in the middle. What is your goal? Once you establish that you can work hard to achieve it. But you're loathe to actually set a concrete goal. Tough to work hard towards something where there isn't a "thing" that you're working hard towards.

Like attracts like. That's it. What's your attractiveness level. Women that are at that same level are your match. Then as you get to know each other over time, you can assess compatibility. Oh, and having a relationship goal in mind, as mentioned above, is a huge part of compatibility...

I am not interested in who I match with so there is no point in having any sort of goal nor frankly am I interested in getting to know people I match with.

Compatibility isn't a magic formula, it either is or it isn't and again why would I bother compromising with someone I have no interest in from the outset.

[Weezy1973]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I am not interested in who I match with so there is no point in having any sort of goal nor frankly am I interested in getting to know people I match with.

Yes. As has been mentioned by many and confirmed by you over and over again. You're not attracted to women who are your match. You're attracted to women that match with your wealthy, handsome, charming, work acquaintances.

 

But of course you can have a relationship goal first. In fact I'd advocate having a relationship goal first, as it will help prioritize the traits you're looking for. There are going to be much different priorities for a co-parent and lifelong partner then there would be for a one-night stand.

[ZA Dater]

10 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Yes. As has been mentioned by many and confirmed by you over and over again. You're not attracted to women who are your match. You're attracted to women that match with your wealthy, handsome, charming, work acquaintances.

 

But of course you can have a relationship goal first. In fact I'd advocate having a relationship goal first, as it will help prioritize the traits you're looking for. There are going to be much different priorities for a co-parent and lifelong partner then there would be for a one-night stand.

I disagree with the goal part but for what it's worth the goal is someone to share life with, good and bad parts. Maybe that explains why I go about things the way I do.

The only people attracted me in the sense they may sleep with me are what you call aspirational. Given the choice of those people or nothing, it's an easy choice hence why I am a 37yo virgin.

The reality for me the things I like would be the same for one night as they would be for 5 years.

[ZA Dater]

14 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Yes. As has been mentioned by many and confirmed by you over and over again. You're not attracted to women who are your match. You're attracted to women that match with your wealthy, handsome, charming, work acquaintances.

 

But of course you can have a relationship goal first. In fact I'd advocate having a relationship goal first, as it will help prioritize the traits you're looking for. There are going to be much different priorities for a co-parent and lifelong partner then there would be for a one-night stand.

The type of person I find attractive is not going to change. Why should it when apparently everyone else is dating people they find attractive.

[elaine567]

6 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

. You're not attracted to women who are your match. You're attracted to women that match with your wealthy, handsome, charming, work acquaintances.

In a nutshell.

16 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The type of person I find attractive is not going to change. Why should it when apparently everyone else is dating people they find attractive.

The difference being everyone else is realistic in who they find attractive.
Those who aren't are like you, chronically unsuccessful..
Hankering after people they have not a hope in hell with.

[Weezy1973]

53 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The type of person I find attractive is not going to change. Why should it when apparently everyone else is dating people they find attractive.

Yes. That is the difference. They’re dating people or in relationships. And you’re not. 
 

[ZA Dater]

8 hours ago, elaine567 said:

In a nutshell.

The difference being everyone else is realistic in who they find attractive.
Those who aren't are like you, chronically unsuccessful..
Hankering after people they have not a hope in hell with.

So put on my shoes, what is the answer? How do you define realistic?

Or is it a case of well, just settle? I see nothing wrong with finding tall athletic people attractive. You tell me how to find the opposite of that attractive?

Edited October 25, 2021 by ZA Dater

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

So put on my shoes, what is the answer? How do you define realistic?

Or is it a case of well, just settle? I see nothing wrong with finding tall athletic people attractive. You tell me how to find the opposite of that attractive?

To put it bluntly if you want a partner you are just going to have to settle.
Your aspirations are so high,  that settling IS your only choice.

You are not particularly tall at 5'9 and, you don't look particularly  athletic in that profile pic you seem to want to hang onto either,  and the matches you get are not tall and athletic. 
Tall, athletic women are not beating a path to your door, so you have no choice but settle for those who do match with you and those who choose you.
That is the reality. of the situation you find yourself in..

Anyone can live in a fantasy world of yearning after beautiful, attractive people, but unless you are one, or have the money, charm or talent to attract one, then it will remain a fantasy.
Your problem is that your friends/acquaintances can attract the beautiful people, so you are so near and yet so far...

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

To put it bluntly if you want a partner you are just going to have to settle.
Your aspirations are so high,  that settling IS your only choice.

You are not particularly tall at 5'9 and, you don't look particularly  athletic in that profile pic you seem to want to hang onto either,  and the matches you get are not tall and athletic. 
Tall, athletic women are not beating a path to your door, so you have no choice but settle for those who do match with you and those who choose you.
That is the reality. of the situation you find yourself in..

Anyone can live in a fantasy world of yearning after beautiful, attractive people, but unless you are one, or have the money, charm or talent to attract one, then it will remain a fantasy.
Your problem is that your friends/acquaintances can attract the beautiful people, so you are so near and yet so far...

Well overweight people have very little attraction for me at all. I'd be quite happy with the same height as me. The matches I get are to be blunt people so unattractive to me I would not want to date them in any manner, never mind sleep with them. 

We have already noted that women do nothing in the dating world and do not chase men so no very few men are fortunate enough to sit around have instant success but those better looking than me at least do not need to settle for what they do not want. 

Once again we arrive back the settling thing...so tell me how many people in 10 actually do this, would you do this?

 

[elaine567]

5 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Once again we arrive back the settling thing...so tell me how many people in 10 actually do this, would you do this?

Not many I would guess as most have plenty of options and most are not fixated on finding a woman 99% of men would have no chance with...

[bene]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

We have already noted that women do nothing in the dating world

But why date these horrible lazy women whom you despise? 🤔 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

Not many I would guess as most have plenty of options and most are not fixated on finding a woman 99% of men would have no chance with...

Question is dodged. Would you date someone you do not find attractive because the people you do find attractive will not date you? Its not about options its about attraction.

Ok so 5.9 and slim are people 99% of men would have no chance with. Ok.

[ZA Dater]

17 minutes ago, bene said:

But why date these horrible lazy women whom you despise? 🤔 

Fact of the matter is almost none of the dates I have been on did the women actually try and portray themselves as an attractive dating proposition but I must bend over backward to do the same? Sure.

[elaine567]

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

. Would you date someone you do not find attractive because the people you do find attractive will not date you?

If I want to date someone, and have a relationship then I would have to, I would have no option not to do so.
Of course if no-one I find attractive wants me, then I may have to change my parameters.
Beggars' can not be choosers

[ZA Dater]

6 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

If I want to date someone, and have a relationship then I would have to, I would have no option not to do so.
Of course if no-one I find attractive wants me, then I may have to change my parameters.
Beggars' can not be choosers

I guess this is why we fundamentally do not agree on this. 

Wheezy is not wrong in that one should have some sort of goal in mind but when pretty much the people I go out with I do not find attractive, from my point of view the best they could expect from me is MAYBE friends but then that is pretty unlikely too as there is never much common ground for that.