Catfish

[elaine567]

Not picky, not fussy, but we are quickly back to a needle in a haystack woman again...
 

[ZA Dater]

On 10/29/2021 at 4:20 PM, elaine567 said:

Not picky, not fussy, but we are quickly back to a needle in a haystack woman again...
 

Not really. 

[Weezy1973]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Not really. 

Really? You’ve found it easy to find women that you find attractive? Your previous posts tell a different story…

[dramafreezone]

On 10/29/2021 at 6:42 AM, ZA Dater said:

You would be surprised how much of the advice I get here I do actually try.....but yes you are right the way I look this is quite different, I did not always have this viewpoint, I too once had the idea of family, kids and the joys/challenges that brings to life but truthfully after years of being rejected I simply gave up on that ideal and chose to pursue something that gives me the most superficial gratification. 

You need to understand I went into dating with perhaps a very idealist point of view where I had as much chance of succeeding as anyone else. Time proved this to be quite a stupid approach and rejection after rejection just confirmed it. I looked around me and realized that actually a lot of people simply care about looks and not much else, this seemed like a better way to go about things because looking for someone who actually connected with me was pretty impossible and still is to a large extent because even when I do find these people there is usually something else wrong with me.

Thus the disconnect is due to my own experience and the fact I have been forced to change what I am looking to get out of dating. Yes, I have made some pretty stupid mistakes, not said things I should have, regretted things I did say.

Having said all that there are things which I do enjoy which at times make up for all of this.

Every single person that dates has come to that same realization, so you aren't special in this regard.  Men and women are attracted to each other for surface reasons, and someone is always going to be more qualified than you.   No one is actually attracted to someone's kind nature, that's a rationalizatiion mapped on to unconscious attraction to the surface reasons.

Many others have simply adapated and learned to be happy with the way things are rather than lamenting that their ideals were not reflected by reality.

 I don't know why that bothers you so much though.  You can't control what you learned as a child but you can choose to adapt or not.  You say you try to adapt but you've never bought in.  Your brain can only manifest what you feed to it and you've never really let go of those ideals.

[ZA Dater]

10 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Really? You’ve found it easy to find women that you find attractive? Your previous posts tell a different story…

I do, the problem is a lack of mutual attraction.

[elaine567]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I do, the problem is a lack of mutual attraction.

You haven't "found" anyone.
Finding someone in dating parlance means you have found someone who will date you, someone who finds you attractive. Mutual attraction, success, in other words.
It doesn't mean you "happened upon" an attractive girl in a cafe, or she was walking in the street. or you spoke briefly to at an event...

[ZA Dater]

14 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

You haven't "found" anyone.
Finding someone in dating parlance means you have found someone who will date you, someone who finds you attractive. Mutual attraction, success, in other words.
It doesn't mean you "happened upon" an attractive girl in a cafe, or she was walking in the street. or you spoke briefly to at an event...

Well I'll take the small wins. If I see someone I find attractive, thats a win.

I've just accepted that none of these people find me attractive.

[elaine567]

11 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Well I'll take the small wins. If I see someone I find attractive, thats a win.

I've just accepted that none of these people find me attractive.

Seeing an attractive person is not really a win.
We could all be "winners", just spend some time on Netflix, plenty attractive people on there.

 

[Weezy1973]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I do, the problem is a lack of mutual attraction.

Well you seem to have changed your story. You've consistently spoken about how few women you find attractive. For example:

 

On 10/17/2021 at 1:40 PM, ZA Dater said:

I'll be quite honest pretty much nobody will compare with A because she ticked almost all of my boxes, what I did not like was so minor to be almost irrelevant. For me attraction has always been a combination of things not just one thing. Mostly for me its based on feel which is ironic considering I rarely show any sort of feeling at all. Finding that combination of attributes is extremely hard and probably near impossible for me...

[ZA Dater]

6 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Well you seem to have changed your story. You've consistently spoken about how few women you find attractive. For example:

 

They do not find me attractive, what I am saying is what I find attractive is not particularly difficult to find, its not like I am looking for a unicorn. Clearly the issue is I do not meet their requirements which to be frank is quite fine actually because like they find fault with me I can find fault with them. I have also come to the conclusion that many women simply treat dating like shopping and that is alright because I can then adopt the same approach. 

Heck I many even pretend to like sushi for a date I might have next weekend though based on the generally poor communication I actually doubt it will happen or any interest I may have will disappear before then. That's the thing, very few of these women I match with (I mean the ones who are reasonably attractive) actually hold me interest for very long and I guess its because as you say they want a connection but do nothing to actually create one. Yeah when they find a person hot then no effort is too much but well how many of us guys ever get that level of attention? I'd wager we end up putting more work in more of the time and for what return exactly?

I can sit and question everything I have done, it does not help me, I can rue the chances I missed that does not help me either. What does make me feel better is knowing that there is some remote chance, however remote it might be. 

Me, I honestly do not think I am capable of connecting to people in a romantic way, in a "call me in the middle of the night, I'll come and help you" kind of way yes but not in a candle light dinner or holding hands on the beach kind of way. 

Ultimately though I have been unfortunate to never experience love but fortunate to have seen like most things its can be bought. 

 

[Weezy1973]

28 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

They do not find me attractive, what I am saying is what I find attractive is not particularly difficult to find, its not like I am looking for a unicorn.

But they don't find you attractive. So basically you have nothing more than high school crushes. Still. At 37.

30 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Clearly the issue is I do not meet their requirements which to be frank is quite fine actually because like they find fault with me I can find fault with them. I have also come to the conclusion that many women simply treat dating like shopping and that is alright because I can then adopt the same approach.

This train of thought is so strange. Why does it matter what other people think or how they date? Why would you adopt the same approach because of that? It seems you're cutting off your nose to spite your face here....

32 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Heck I many even pretend to like sushi for a date I might have next weekend though based on the generally poor communication I actually doubt it will happen or any interest I may have will disappear before then.

Has been said many times now. You've failed before you even begin. I'm not saying you should have a super positive attitude, but even just a neutral "who knows what can happen" attitude would put you better spot than your negativity.

[elaine567]

35 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Yeah when they find a person hot then no effort is too much but well how many of us guys ever get that level of attention

Most guys get loads of attention.  The world is not full of guys getting no attention...

[dramafreezone]

On 10/31/2021 at 11:41 AM, ZA Dater said:

They do not find me attractive

You don't know who finds you attractive and who doesn't.  Assuming that you are regularly in public, you come across women all the time that find you attractive.  Women on average just have a higher threshold for showing interest in meeting you.

Guys look at a woman and based on the physical appearance that's enough for us.  That's not how women think, they need presence as well, and that presence depends on their preferences.

Furthermore, a woman could have a decent level of attraction to you and if she's very shy she'll never even let it show.  I remember at our business Christmas party a very shy colleague was very tipsy and confessed how much she liked and admired me.   Obviously she at least found me attractive but she never let on at any time previously.

You think a woman should want to rip your clothes off and that's attraction.  Most guys will rarely see that type of attraction right off the bat.  It can build up to that but that is a process and takes time.  You have to put in work in demonstrating the type of presence that's attractive too.  Unless you're a underwear model or fitness athlete the physical isn't enough for normal guys.

Edited November 2, 2021 by dramafreezone

[ZA Dater]

20 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

You don't know who finds you attractive and who doesn't.  Assuming that you are regularly in public, you come across women all the time that find you attractive.  Women on average just have a higher threshold for showing interest in meeting you.

Guys look at a woman and based on the physical appearance that's enough for us.  That's not how women think, they need presence as well, and that presence depends on their preferences.

Furthermore, a woman could have a decent level of attraction to you and if she's very shy she'll never even let it show.  I remember at our business Christmas party a very shy colleague was very tipsy and confessed how much she liked and admired me.   Obviously she at least found me attractive but she never let on at any time previously.

You think a woman should want to rip your clothes off and that's attraction.  Most guys will rarely see that type of attraction right off the bat.  It can build up to that but that is a process and takes time.  You have to put in work in demonstrating the type of presence that's attractive too.  Unless you're a underwear model or fitness athlete the physical isn't enough for normal guys.

To be frank I do not subscribe to men putting in all the work and really all that really does is give a metaphorical kick in the face more often than not because by opening up all we do is just give the person we hope likes us more power over us and the rejection is even less pleasant, if I go out there and do dating methodically with next to zero emotion I do not give that power away, I think they call this vulnerable. I will never open myself up to that again, every single time I have the result has just been the same, she could not care less about rejecting me I regret showing anything about myself at all.

Sure, some might but lets not kid ourselves its just a game of whoever looks the best winning , yes, that is subjective but I do not really see the short unfit guy winning out over the tall athletic football player, its just how it is so yes when I go out I like to think that slim blond finds me attractive but the reality is she basically does not because she has the choice of better and no amount of me selling myself will ever change that, no personality trait I can exhibit will change that. We'd all like to believe it could and sure maybe 5% of the time it does but mostly it does not, the kind people in this thread have proven that over and over again.

For me looks are not enough, she can be gorgeous but if she speaks badly I am really not interested. Its very easy for me to dismiss in much the same way I get dismissed, I wish I had learnt this earlier I could have saved myself a lot of time trying to win people over whom I had no chance of ever winning over on some misguided notion that having good qualities actually mattered a bit, it does not and that is alright. I can live with that reality again I wish I had realised that 25 years ago, I simply would not have bothered with dating at all, again my misguided notion that I can actually date people I find attractive, very misguided that idea was. Another misguided notion was that being experience at dating did not matter, in my mind I actually thought a guy who has not slept with 20 women would be seen as attractive, which I guess in certain religions might be the case but its hardly of much use to a person who last walked out a church 25 years ago and vowed never to return to one. 

Work, yeah its all about work really, one sided work, no matter how much work one puts in there is always someone else more appealing. I am grateful I was exposed to this transaction like dating from a fairly young age, though I wish I had paid more attention to the fundamentals rather than focus on "Alright that idea seems like a great one, I too want to date the person who turns heads" Call it what you want but that idea has always appealed to me. I also like the well spoken confident dynamic person but so do most guys.

My impression really is to actually succeed here one needs to find a niche market and work that niche, find something that might appeal to people, find the people what might appeal to and work in that pool and then just hope that you actually find those people attractive because if you do not, well its pretty much going to be one way disappointment. 

Ask me. I know.

[ZA Dater]

On 10/31/2021 at 9:37 PM, elaine567 said:

Most guys get loads of attention.  The world is not full of guys getting no attention...

How much of that attention do they really think is of value in a dating context? 

[ZA Dater]

On 10/31/2021 at 9:15 PM, Weezy1973 said:

But they don't find you attractive. So basically you have nothing more than high school crushes. Still. At 37.

This train of thought is so strange. Why does it matter what other people think or how they date? Why would you adopt the same approach because of that? It seems you're cutting off your nose to spite your face here....

Has been said many times now. You've failed before you even begin. I'm not saying you should have a super positive attitude, but even just a neutral "who knows what can happen" attitude would put you better spot than your negativity.

It does because its been well established there is one ONE way to go about this and that is to stay in your lane and just accept who is in that lane and make the best out of it, failing which you find yourself on a road less taken. If you can work out how others think its easier to rationalise a lack of success, its easier to get that 30 min extra of sleep and its easier to dismiss any notions of ever waking up one day next to someone I actually might love because, well they have traits about them I love.

I have never stopped believing in that ideal but that is also why I simply will not compromise with anything less than that, I can go out and I could probable wake up next to someone but I know they would no be the person I actually want, that is the difference, doing something because I can versus doing something because its something I want. The single biggest issue I have with dating is actually not having mutual attraction, its number two on the list, no the biggest issue is a lack of warmth from people which I guess considering I radiate very little is hardly surprising.

Ultimately we all make our own road in life, at the moment I have 3 or 4 people who would go out with me, none of them really interest me because absolutely none show any interest in me, there is not ever a "how are you today" and I cannot operate in that sort of environment in dating, most of my life is actually like that but I will not transfer that into dating. Again why is it A can send me a 10 min voice note, really asking how I am and none of these people can even bother, all communication has to be initiated by me. Why? Every single dating interaction I have had was me having to do all the work and my sum total of experience.....rejected. 

 

 

[dramafreezone]

13 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

To be frank I do not subscribe to men putting in all the work and really all that really does is give a metaphorical kick in the face more often than not because by opening up all we do is just give the person we hope likes us more power over us and the rejection is even less pleasant, if I go out there and do dating methodically with next to zero emotion I do not give that power away, I think they call this vulnerable. I will never open myself up to that again, every single time I have the result has just been the same, she could not care less about rejecting me I regret showing anything about myself at all.

 

If you don't want to play the game that's your choice.  But that's *your* decision.  You're not being denied the ability to engage, you're choosing not to do so.

 

15 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Sure, some might but lets not kid ourselves its just a game of whoever looks the best winning , yes, that is subjective but I do not really see the short unfit guy winning out over the tall athletic football player, its just how it is so yes when I go out I like to think that slim blond finds me attractive but the reality is she basically does not because she has the choice of better and no amount of me selling myself will ever change that, no personality trait I can exhibit will change that. We'd all like to believe it could and sure maybe 5% of the time it does but mostly it does not, the kind people in this thread have proven that over and over again.

 

There are millions of short unfit guys who are married, many of them happily.  You significantly overestimate how many brawny, chiseled types there are in this world.  The tall athletic football player can't date everyone, so those women look elsewhere.

Also, those tall football types often cheat a lot, mistreat women, so many women that *could* get that guy choose not to even deal with him because they get tired of that type of guy.  They'll go with someone that they typically wouldn't go with because they want a new outcome.  But you'll miss that because you think people are just necessarily stuck in their classes and they never venture out of them.

If things were the way you think they are, 100% of the women in the world would be purusing the one guy that's better than everyone.  So can you explain why that isn't the case, if all it's about is having the highest pitched traits?

19 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Work, yeah its all about work really, one sided work, no matter how much work one puts in there is always someone else more appealing.

 

I don't agree with this at all.  Once a woman falls in love with you, you are it for her.  

At this point you're speaking from ignorance.  Once a woman falls for you, no other guy can compare, you're all that she thinks about 24/7.  She wants to eat, sleep and breathe you.

It is work to get there but once you are there, there's nothing like that feeling of her being in love with you.  Now how to maintain that feeling is another topic entirely but I don't agree at all that women are constantly looking for the better deal.  How are they going to be looking for the better deal when they're obsessed with you 24/7?  When she's devoting all of her thoughts and time to you there is no room for her to consider someone else.

[elaine567]

49 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

t is work to get there but once you are there, there's nothing like that feeling of her being in love with you.  Now how to maintain that feeling is another topic entirely but I don't agree at all that women are constantly looking for the better deal.  How are they going to be looking for the better deal when they're obsessed with you 24/7?  When she's devoting all of her thoughts and time to you there is no room for her to consider someone else.

BUT women only fall in love with "Chads" and charming, good looking, rich playboys... Women "settle" for other men...
The world according to ZA.

[bene]

15 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Sure, some might but lets not kid ourselves its just a game of whoever looks the best winning

Do I understand correctly that there is one person in the world who is successful with dating and billions of other people are just settling?

Your inexperience is really showing. Let’s not kid ourselves - you have absolutely no idea or experience what actually makes or breaks a relationship. All these rationalizations are just mind gymnastics. 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, bene said:

Do I understand correctly that there is one person in the world who is successful with dating and billions of other people are just settling?

Your inexperience is really showing. Let’s not kid ourselves - you have absolutely no idea or experience what actually makes or breaks a relationship. All these rationalizations are just mind gymnastics. 

Well I can tell you I have lots of experience being rejected, far too much in fact so yes I look around and often I get to see who I get I rejected in favor of and that is where my conclusion comes from. 

I do believe a high percentage of people settle, even if they wont admit it to themselves, I know a few who did, simply because they wanted kids and families and were unsure if they would find that person, they found someone else and some are happy and others are very unhappy.

The one way I could change my result is to change my outcome and what I actually want out of dating. 

[ZA Dater]

16 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

If you don't want to play the game that's your choice.  But that's *your* decision.  You're not being denied the ability to engage, you're choosing not to do so.

 

There are millions of short unfit guys who are married, many of them happily.  You significantly overestimate how many brawny, chiseled types there are in this world.  The tall athletic football player can't date everyone, so those women look elsewhere.

Also, those tall football types often cheat a lot, mistreat women, so many women that *could* get that guy choose not to even deal with him because they get tired of that type of guy.  They'll go with someone that they typically wouldn't go with because they want a new outcome.  But you'll miss that because you think people are just necessarily stuck in their classes and they never venture out of them.

If things were the way you think they are, 100% of the women in the world would be purusing the one guy that's better than everyone.  So can you explain why that isn't the case, if all it's about is having the highest pitched traits?

I don't agree with this at all.  Once a woman falls in love with you, you are it for her.  

At this point you're speaking from ignorance.  Once a woman falls for you, no other guy can compare, you're all that she thinks about 24/7.  She wants to eat, sleep and breathe you.

It is work to get there but once you are there, there's nothing like that feeling of her being in love with you.  Now how to maintain that feeling is another topic entirely but I don't agree at all that women are constantly looking for the better deal.  How are they going to be looking for the better deal when they're obsessed with you 24/7?  When she's devoting all of her thoughts and time to you there is no room for her to consider someone else.

No, experience, every single time I get rejected its because there is another 50 matches to meet and near endless choice. As for falling in love, no I have no experience of that and I doubt I will ever experience that either. 

Simply put the only way I get back into this game is if I actually find mutual attraction, without that the entire idea is akin to climbing a mountain without a rope. 

People on this forum have spent a lot of time telling me that in fact everyone has a league and class and they cannot move out of that. I'd love to believe what you say about people choosing the alternative, sadly I very seldom actually see this, there is one scenario where I do see it the reason there is very obvious. 

[Foxhall]

16 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

no the biggest issue is a lack of warmth from people which I guess considering I radiate very little is hardly surprising.

I suppose  the reason for this is when you have shown warmth it has not been enough to win the girl over, and you lost heart a bit

You have to try and find warmth though-  even by faking it as was suggested earlier, without warmth you know yourself you have no chance,

You have to find the fun of a younger age or soften your soul again,

Are the negatives in your mind really that bad,

for instance ok no sexual experience, I mean you could have a guy who had a lot of women in his 20s and he goes a few years without any,

its like starting all over again,

work on your mind, trick your own mind even- you can do it- you can find the woman you desire.

holding hands actually is not a bad idea- did you mention that yourself I think,

you know if your on a date, you fancy her, your walking together and there is a reasonable amount of talk, things going ok- well be bold reach out to hold her hand,

and the sports stars there as mentioned above, one very good looking lady I know, I asked her that once - did she ever get attention from sports stars,

she said she did date a few but they actually did not have much warmth, chances are they would always cheat and she preferred to look at other guys,

then again if you take say those weekly golf tournaments and the winner getting his prize- there is always a stunning wife or girlfriend that appears, lol they are the type of women that you want really when its all said and done,

you have to be realistic too but its not impossible,

guys like that may get women without much effort but the likes of you and me- warmth really is our only chance- so you have to up your game on that.

 

 

 

 

[dramafreezone]

 

8 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

No, experience, every single time I get rejected its because there is another 50 matches to meet and near endless choice. As for falling in love, no I have no experience of that and I doubt I will ever experience that either. 

Simply put the only way I get back into this game is if I actually find mutual attraction, without that the entire idea is akin to climbing a mountain without a rope. 

People on this forum have spent a lot of time telling me that in fact everyone has a league and class and they cannot move out of that. I'd love to believe what you say about people choosing the alternative, sadly I very seldom actually see this, there is one scenario where I do see it the reason there is very obvious. 

Every guy has experience in rejection.  You get rejected more because you've stacked the odds against yourself.  In blackjack if you hit on 20 and you bust on 100 straight hands, and you know how the game is played but you simply want to stick to your own beliefs, then you only have yourself to blame.  You're the type that says "i should be able to hit on 20 and win."  You can, it's just incredibly rare.

But you reject a fair amount of women yourself so I don't see why you take it so personally.  The ones where you say "I'm just not attracted to them" that is rejection.  Why do you think it's ok for you to reject but you are deeply hurt when it happens to you?

You can move out of your league and your class, but that requires work on your part.  It involves doing the self-improvment, which I'm sure I've talked about with you several pages back.  You said something to the effect of "I tried to wear new clothes and it didn't work."  The problem is that you think self-improvement is a strategy, and it's not.  We're talking a change in lifestyle, permanently, not just until you get the desired result.

Edited November 4, 2021 by dramafreezone

[Weezy1973]

On 11/3/2021 at 1:28 PM, ZA Dater said:

It does because its been well established there is one ONE way to go about this and that is to stay in your lane and just accept who is in that lane and make the best out of it,

But you can change your own lane if you’re willing to put in the work. Charm and wealth both can make up for average looks. Are you willing to work at being charming or wealthy? 
 

On 11/3/2021 at 1:28 PM, ZA Dater said:

If you can work out how others think its easier to rationalise a lack of success,

Most of us don’t have a lack of success. We love and are attracted to our partners, as average as they might be. Again, connection vs. attraction. I see objectively more attractive women than my partner all the time, but have no desire to date them because of the connection I have with my wife. 

 

On 11/3/2021 at 1:28 PM, ZA Dater said:

I have 3 or 4 people who would go out with me, none of them really interest me because absolutely none show any interest in me,

Are these people from online dating? If so, they’re likely waiting to meet you first. See if there’s potential for a match. They don’t know if they’re interested in you or not yet…how could they?

[ZA Dater]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:40 PM, Weezy1973 said:

But you can change your own lane if you’re willing to put in the work. Charm and wealth both can make up for average looks. Are you willing to work at being charming or wealthy? 
 

Most of us don’t have a lack of success. We love and are attracted to our partners, as average as they might be. Again, connection vs. attraction. I see objectively more attractive women than my partner all the time, but have no desire to date them because of the connection I have with my wife. 

 

Are these people from online dating? If so, they’re likely waiting to meet you first. See if there’s potential for a match. They don’t know if they’re interested in you or not yet…how could they?

You know its either can can or you cant, one minute I have my league I can never change the the next I can.....I stopped bothering to put in work when it comes to women because probably about 2% of women I meet actually put in any effort at all to charm me. 

I will agree on connection, that is important as is the ability to be able to connect, I do not have that ability or I rarely find anyone I actually want to connect with. Its really not worth the effort trying 99% of the time, why when most of the time there is going to be some superficial "problem" why spill my soul when she things I am ugly anyway. No, unless there is communicated signs of interest I'll do what people do in high end stores, walk in look around, imagine how nice that item must be and walk out again, that is pretty much my approach.

Sure I can go and take this one to sushi, she is 23 and likes older guys, she is fairly pretty baring a few tats which I do not like but I ask myself why would I sit and have dinner with her when nobody else in 20 odd years has found me attractive, why suddenly would she. None of the women I chased and tried to date ever liked me no matter what I did so why would she. 

To be honest its got to the stage where the appeal of something tangible, a jacket, a nice shirt, a nice dinner has more appeal to me than sitting on a date. 

For me dating or trying to is all effort with zero reward, that shirt, jacket or piece of cake makes me feel good, sitting in front of someone I need to convince to like me, there is no feel good there at all.