Catfish

[ZA Dater]

On 11/4/2021 at 11:47 PM, dramafreezone said:

 

Every guy has experience in rejection.  You get rejected more because you've stacked the odds against yourself.  In blackjack if you hit on 20 and you bust on 100 straight hands, and you know how the game is played but you simply want to stick to your own beliefs, then you only have yourself to blame.  You're the type that says "i should be able to hit on 20 and win."  You can, it's just incredibly rare.

But you reject a fair amount of women yourself so I don't see why you take it so personally.  The ones where you say "I'm just not attracted to them" that is rejection.  Why do you think it's ok for you to reject but you are deeply hurt when it happens to you?

You can move out of your league and your class, but that requires work on your part.  It involves doing the self-improvment, which I'm sure I've talked about with you several pages back.  You said something to the effect of "I tried to wear new clothes and it didn't work."  The problem is that you think self-improvement is a strategy, and it's not.  We're talking a change in lifestyle, permanently, not just until you get the desired result.

I do not reject people, I make myself unattractive so they reject me. I am happy with my life style, it revolves almost exclusively around work and has always done, in school people went out, I sat home and read biographies, people went to friends houses, I had not friends so I climbed on my bike and cycled through the country side. 

The conclusion I have had with dating is no matter what I do there will always be someone better so why bother? I am always going to be the "well he is sweet, kind and helpful but I am not going to sleep with him". Eventually I am just letting a lot of this go, yes I'd love company, yes I'd like to experience things but at some point a person just have to sit back and say "that is clearly not meant to be". 

For me the quality of dating I can get does not make me feel good, cycling and watching a beautiful sunset makes me feel good, walking through the forest on my own makes me feel good, spending time like I did with A made me feel really good. It was good to experience some warmth even if it was fleeting. 

I know people who really put in zero effort and there tons of women interested in them, this has been a blessing and a curse, the former because I get to see what is universally attractive, a curse because I will never be that universally attractive.

[dramafreezone]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I do not reject people,

You do reject people.  You've said on here that there have been women that have found you attractive but you didn't find them attractive, so you chose not to date them, right?  That is rejecting them.

[bene]

22 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The conclusion I have had with dating is no matter what I do there will always be someone better so why bother?

There is always someone better in business so why bother going to work?

There is always someone faster so why go for a morning jog?

There is always someone with their own cooking show or restaurant chain so why cook a meal?

There is always someone richer so why save money?

There is always someone smarter so why read an article or a book?

[dramafreezone]

21 hours ago, bene said:

There is always someone better in business so why bother going to work?

There is always someone faster so why go for a morning jog?

There is always someone with their own cooking show or restaurant chain so why cook a meal?

There is always someone richer so why save money?

There is always someone smarter so why read an article or a book?

Yes, not the best reasoning on his part.

Plus it's not really true when it comes to interpersonal relationships.  Whenever people are in love, no one else matters to them, they only care about that one person. 

So in essence OP, whenever a woman is in love with you, you are the best in the world, there is no one better.  We have all seen the crazy things that people do for those that they're in love with, but why would they do that if there's someone better?  In their minds, there must be no one better.  But again you haven't put yourself out there enough to experience this.

Edited November 13, 2021 by dramafreezone

[Weezy1973]

On 11/11/2021 at 12:33 PM, ZA Dater said:

You know its either can can or you cant, one minute I have my league I can never change the the next I can...

Nobody said you can't change your league. You just refuse to make steps in that direction.

On 11/11/2021 at 12:33 PM, ZA Dater said:

I stopped bothering to put in work when it comes to women because probably about 2% of women I meet actually put in any effort at all to charm me.

This has been spoken to multiple times. In general, men put in the majority of the explicit effort in the early stages. Your refusal to accept this fact is yet another reason for your complete failure in the realm of romance.

On 11/11/2021 at 12:33 PM, ZA Dater said:

I will agree on connection, that is important as is the ability to be able to connect, I do not have that ability or I rarely find anyone I actually want to connect with. Its really not worth the effort trying 99% of the time...

When you connect with someone, there really is very little effort. That's why it's a connection.

 

On 11/11/2021 at 12:33 PM, ZA Dater said:

 No, unless there is communicated signs of interest I'll do what people do in high end stores, walk in look around, imagine how nice that item must be and walk out again, that is pretty much my approach.

That is your approach, and you've seen the results. Complete lack of success. First, women tend to communicate signs of interest quite subtly. Second, those that communicate their interest obviously are women you are highly likely not to have any interest in. And third, if a woman you found attractive did show obvious signs of interest, I highly suspect you would be frozen in fear and wouldn't do anything about it.

 

On 11/11/2021 at 12:33 PM, ZA Dater said:

Sure I can go and take this one to sushi, she is 23 and likes older guys, she is fairly pretty baring a few tats which I do not like but I ask myself why would I sit and have dinner with her when nobody else in 20 odd years has found me attractive, why suddenly would she. None of the women I chased and tried to date ever liked me no matter what I did so why would she.

Because everybody's different? She like significantly older guys. Most people like others of similar ages. See, she's different. And let's face it, although you may have been attracted to women through the years, you've only actually asked out very few. Besides "K" I don't think you've asked out any in the time you've been posting. Just having a crush on someone is not chasing or trying to date.

[dramafreezone]

On 11/11/2021 at 12:33 PM, ZA Dater said:

You know its either can can or you cant, one minute I have my league I can never change the the next I can.....I stopped bothering to put in work when it comes to women because probably about 2% of women I meet actually put in any effort at all to charm me. 

 

That's about right.  Most guys have about 2% of women that will really be into him enough to try to pick you up.  Do you have any idea how many women 2% is on a grand scale?

Using the population numbers in South Africa, and selecting for women who are single and age appropriate, a rough calculation for you would be 52,790.4 eligible women in the country.   You'd probably have to pare that down for women who are LGBQT, but still, you literally would not have time to date all of those women if you dedicated your life to it, so get to it.

In any event, what's so great about you that you should be charmed?  The women are the ones with the thing every guy wants.  Women don't dream about penises, they can get sex anytime they want.  So what is it that you offer, and don't say you listen to their problems and they can confide in you, they have therapists for that.

[ZA Dater]

On 11/13/2021 at 6:34 PM, dramafreezone said:

Yes, not the best reasoning on his part.

Plus it's not really true when it comes to interpersonal relationships.  Whenever people are in love, no one else matters to them, they only care about that one person. 

So in essence OP, whenever a woman is in love with you, you are the best in the world, there is no one better.  We have all seen the crazy things that people do for those that they're in love with, but why would they do that if there's someone better?  In their minds, there must be no one better.  But again you haven't put yourself out there enough to experience this.

Frankly the entire "idea" to me is one based on competing. Anyone care to disprove that? Its a competition until you apparently find that connection, I do not disagree with this but if like me you simply do not ever find that it then dating does become about the tangible things, the things which are based on competing and I will admit its tiring to get onto this particular roller coaster. 

Everyone knows why I get onto this roller coaster because when I look around all I see is transactional type "relationships" and I see women literally actually trying to impress guys, give them a reason to date them. How much of that is based on competing? 

Yes, I am sure the "unreserved" loving relationship exists but in the years I have spent on this planet I cant say I have seen very many of them. Heck I go back to when I started trying to date, I'd get skipped over for the "cool" guys, again that is competition. 

I have been out enough to see the above, over and over again. 

[ZA Dater]

11 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Nobody said you can't change your league. You just refuse to make steps in that direction.

This has been spoken to multiple times. In general, men put in the majority of the explicit effort in the early stages. Your refusal to accept this fact is yet another reason for your complete failure in the realm of romance.

When you connect with someone, there really is very little effort. That's why it's a connection.

 

That is your approach, and you've seen the results. Complete lack of success. First, women tend to communicate signs of interest quite subtly. Second, those that communicate their interest obviously are women you are highly likely not to have any interest in. And third, if a woman you found attractive did show obvious signs of interest, I highly suspect you would be frozen in fear and wouldn't do anything about it.

 

Because everybody's different? She like significantly older guys. Most people like others of similar ages. See, she's different. And let's face it, although you may have been attracted to women through the years, you've only actually asked out very few. Besides "K" I don't think you've asked out any in the time you've been posting. Just having a crush on someone is not chasing or trying to date.

Ok, why must men put in all the effort? Its a bit like putting on a blindfold and trying to throw a basketball through a hoop, this what I resent about this, at least I want to have some indication that it might be worth it but when I look around and I can just see more of the same I simply do not bother. Do you look at situations and say "ok I may have a chance with her and if so what makes your chances better with her" and what makes those chances better. 

Point taken, I connect with nobody in the dating sense ever really, in terms of me having something they want, maybe some of the time but as soon as they get what they want its simply "next" . K was a good example of this, no amount of good conversation can make up for  the fact I do not have have what she wants, likewise A. Again why even bother?

Why subtly? I simply cannot be bothered to try and understand what someone is trying to say to me if they actually do not say, its exactly this why so many guys confuse friendly women with interested women, more so when they have had zero success. 

The bold is interesting because I have tried to play this scenario out before in my mind but the reality is its such a remote possibility so after the A story I simply do not think about it anymore. My thinking goes along these lines, take yesterday I went for a walk on the beach, think Venice Beach type vibe and there are lots of attractive ladies, a lot fewer on their own, nevertheless I look at miss blond in her running shorts and I think to myself, she is attractive but I also know my chances are ZERO. Next and so it goes, this is what happens when a person has zero confidence and self belief, all from a complete lack of success. Then lets assume she does find me physically attractive, then there would be something else "wrong" so the net outcome is the same.

I do not ask them out because I simply I know the answer is NO. If its not NO the first time it will be NO to a second date.

[Wiseman2]

16 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

  yesterday I went for a walk on the beach and there are lots of attractive ladies, I look at miss blond in her running shorts and I think to myself, she is attractive 

Ok, but sitting on the sidelines watching pretty women jog by in shorts is not dating, it's just a day out at the beach.

For dating, you'll have to start up conversations and build rapport, not pick women up.

You don't like dating apps so if you join some groups, clubs, sports, volunteer, get a side hustle and stay actively involved in a regular situation where you can talk to women you'll improve your chances of getting dates in real life.

The less you subscribe to pickup artist rhetoric, the better you'll do.

[elaine567]

The chances you being able to pick up attractive girls on the beach are likely about nil.  You need to be realistic and play on yours strengths not wallow in your weaknesses.
You seem determined to compete with wealthy  charming players and guys with film-star good looks and wonder why you fail...
99.9% of average guys would fail too, even  good looking guys would probably struggle, as women tend not to want to be picked up on the beach. It is a safety issue.
Women tend to want a frame of reference. He lives or works on my street/neighbourhood/town, he  goes to my uni, we have the same career, we are in the same sport's club, he is friends with people I know...
They do not want randoms picking them up when they are alone and defenceless on the beach.

[elaine567]

 Who on earth would say there is not a competitive side to dating.
Everyone including you and maybe especially you, wants the best they can get.
If that means choosing the "best" one over the others then so be it. Why would anyone want a person who they do not rate?
Your problem, as always, is that you, as an average guy looking at above average women and you can't compete with the above average guys these women will attract.
That is why you hate and rail at "competition".
Fine you want women to compete for you, but God Forbid you may have to compete for women...
You don't have the looks, the personality, the money, the charm, the sexiness, the ability to connect... to get one of these very attractive women to take you seriously.
Not only that, you seem to have developed a big chip and a contempt for women.
You keep saying your experience with A was a positive one but since then you seem to have got even more negative and dare I say it bitter...

[ZA Dater]

24 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

The chances you being able to pick up attractive girls on the beach are likely about nil.  You need to be realistic and play on yours strengths not wallow in your weaknesses.
You seem determined to compete with wealthy  charming players and guys with film-star good looks and wonder why you fail...
99.9% of average guys would fail too, even  good looking guys would probably struggle, as women tend not to want to be picked up on the beach. It is a safety issue.
Women tend to want a frame of reference. He lives or works on my street/neighbourhood/town, he  goes to my uni, we have the same career, we are in the same sport's club, he is friends with people I know...
They do not want randoms picking them up when they are alone and defenceless on the beach.

Agree with all of this so even if I did know how to "pick up" I would not because the chances of success there are very low unless one had some sort of super quality which I admit some people do actually have. Everything I am good a gets me nowhere when it comes to dating, there is not one quality which actually helps me, if anything most of them just throw up more red flags.

I get that there needs to be some frame of reference, makes sense which I why I keep saying people who have loads of friends in theory should do better at dating versus those who have very few. 

Sitting at the beach watching the sun set at least I can window shop while watching the waves crash on the shoreline.

[ZA Dater]

27 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

 Who on earth would say there is not a competitive side to dating.
Everyone including you and maybe especially you, wants the best they can get.
If that means choosing the "best" one over the others then so be it. Why would anyone want a person who they do not rate?
Your problem, as always, is that you, as an average guy looking at above average women and you can't compete with the above average guys these women will attract.
That is why you hate and rail at "competition".
Fine you want women to compete for you, but God Forbid you may have to compete for women...
You don't have the looks, the personality, the money, the charm, the sexiness, the ability to connect... to get one of these very attractive women to take you seriously.
Not only that, you seem to have developed a big chip and a contempt for women.
You keep saying your experience with A was a positive one but since then you seem to have got even more negative and dare I say it bitter...

It how my interpretation of "connection" means people look past the "best" part...or maybe they do not? 

Looks, money, charm, sexiness, I'd argue the more of those you have the better chance of connecting but I can already hear the cries of outrage that I dare suggest such a thing because those things are not important to connection or are they?

Its not really a chip its more of a reality check, honestly I concede other have different experiences to me and I am glad they do! I try to put myself in those shoes but they really do not fit, I try to imagine dating someone who does not wow me, I try imagine having to spend time convincing myself I like her because well she likes me, I try convince myself that if I see her 10 times I will find her more attractive but none of these scenarios really fits too well.

It was good because I got to experience a sense of companionship with someone I really did find attractive, spending an extended time with someone is very different to spending 1 hour at a date, she actually was nice to me, outgoing, we could talk about lots of things and I could just be me, she asked about me and it was just nice to spend time with someone happy and warm. The bad things about me did no matter. Everyone around me saw a marked difference in me, my closest friend said to me "she is really good for you".

I am not bitter about the ultimate outcome, it was good for just a while to believe in something different to the inevitable. The problem when I had it that "good" is everything else simply is not as "good", you told me to accept it and to some degree I have,  I will never be able to date people like her. 

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

Ok, but sitting on the sidelines watching pretty women jog by in shorts is not dating, it's just a day out at the beach.

For dating, you'll have to start up conversations and build rapport, not pick women up.

You don't like dating apps so if you join some groups, clubs, sports, volunteer, get a side hustle and stay actively involved in a regular situation where you can talk to women you'll improve your chances of getting dates in real life.

The less you subscribe to pickup artist rhetoric, the better you'll do.

This is where the disaster starts, even at my most charming I am not charming by any measure, work like yes, charming no. I took a look around me over the past few weeks, FB, IG and while I concede those do not really provide much perspective its also clear to the "best" way to date is to do so via friends. Dating apps are the only real way I can try and get dates but its largely fruitless because inevitably I land up going on dates with people I really do not find attractive because the people I do find attractive wont date me. 

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

It how my interpretation of "connection" means people look past the "best" part...or maybe they do not? 

Looks, money, charm, sexiness, I'd argue the more of those you have the better chance of connecting but I can already hear the cries of outrage that I dare suggest such a thing because those things are not important to connection or are they?

Connection means you have found someone you gel with.
Someone you get on the same wavelength with.
Connection is often "in addition to" it is not "instead of".
Yes if the connection is very good you may lower the bar on the more physical/material aspects, but you still need basic attraction.
Connection on its own usually leads to friendship...

You had some connection with A, but because she didn't find you attractive enough otherwise, you stayed as friends

[ZA Dater]

40 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Connection means you have found someone you gel with.
Someone you get on the same wavelength with.
Connection is often "in addition to" it is not "instead of".
Yes if the connection is very good you may lower the bar on the more physical/material aspects, but you still need basic attraction.
Connection on its own usually leads to friendship...

You had some connection with A, but because she didn't find you attractive enough otherwise, you stayed as friends

Well that is the point really, irrespective what I do there is always some issue. Add in the fact I really gel with very few people in general. The world viewed through my eyes suggests all the superficial tings are pretty helpful in creating connection.

[elaine567]

17 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Well that is the point really, irrespective what I do there is always some issue. Add in the fact I really gel with very few people in general. The world viewed through my eyes suggests all the superficial tings are pretty helpful in creating connection.

I think they can be, but bigger things can matter too. 
Taste in music, comedy, TV shows, films, sports, hobbies, politics, religion, sex, outlook on life, life goals, life experiences, etc can all create a web of connections that signify we will likely get along well. It is all about finding someone who seems to come from the same tribe.
"We connect. I see where you are coming from and you know where I am coming from, it is easy and enjoyable."

Edited November 15, 2021 by elaine567
typo

[dramafreezone]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Ok, why must men put in all the effort? Its a bit like putting on a blindfold and trying to throw a basketball through a hoop, this what I resent about this, at least I want to have some indication that it might be worth it but when I look around and I can just see more of the same I simply do not bother. Do you look at situations and say "ok I may have a chance with her and if so what makes your chances better with her" and what makes those chances better. 

 

Because it's simple supply and demand.  The average woman has far more suitors than the average man.  I don't understand resenting it though.  It's like you think it's women's fault.  Blame the big man upstairs, or evolution, whatever you subscribe to.  The women didn't make it that way, they only react to it.

Competition is in place to make men great.  You have to decide if you're going to be great, but if you just don't have the energy or the inclination to compete, then you're not in the game.  You're attracted to a certain level of woman, the options are to elevate yourself to make yourself viable, or you're out of the game.  Complaining about it is like complaining that the sun gives off light or that water is wet.

Edited November 15, 2021 by dramafreezone

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

I think they can be, but bigger things can matter too. 
Taste in music, comedy, TV shows, films, sports, hobbies, politics, religion, sex, outlook on life, life goals, life experiences, etc can all create a web of connections that signify we will likely get along well. It is all about finding someone who seems to come from the same tribe.
"We connect. I see where you are coming from and you know where I am coming from, it is easy and enjoyable."

Maybe those things matter, I used to believe they did until I kept trying to sell who I am and the person I am and found that actually that did not matter at all for the most part because seemingly every trait I do not have is deemed to be very attractive and none of the traits I do have are attractive. The irony is is can get along with most people but there is rarely any attraction from them to me, I have tons of patience for example.

Remember I have been to the clubs and the bars, I have been the project everyone wants to "fix" but nobody really can because they think they know what I want which is not actually what I do want. I have played around with very generic dating profiles, I have tried to be interested in things I am not, read up on things to have those sort of conversations but it never seems to count for anything.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, dramafreezone said:

Because it's simple supply and demand.  The average woman has far more suitors than the average man.  I don't understand resenting it though.  It's like you think it's women's fault.  Blame the big man upstairs, or evolution, whatever you subscribe to.  The women didn't make it that way, they only react to it.

Competition is in place to make men great.  You have to decide if you're going to be great, but if you just don't have the energy or the inclination to compete, then you're not in the game.  You're attracted to a certain level of woman, the options are to elevate yourself to make yourself viable, or you're out of the game.  Complaining about it is like complaining that the sun gives off light or that water is wet.

Thank you for this! I do not particularly resent any of this, I do no agree with it but neither you nor I or anyone can really change the narrative of how this works but we can acknowledge it does not work the same way it did 20 years ago. 

Fact of the matter remains people can do whatever they want, does not mean it will actually work. As for the game, I have never really been in it, I tried to play it, could not understand it, deluded myself to believer I had some good qualities people would like that is not the case, had a mighty slice of humble pie, decided I got more value out of being friends with people I found attractive. 

Every so often a part of me believes I can do this but when I try I quickly realise Chad will always have me beat so I may as well not bother which is easier said than it is done.

[elaine567]

36 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The irony is is can get along with most people but there is rarely any attraction from them to me,

Attraction is based on sex, if you are acting like Mr Businessman as you say you tend to do most of the time, then that is not sexy.

Chad gets the girls as he is in touch with his sexy side. 

If Chad always acts like a businessman he will struggle too. 

[ZA Dater]

51 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Attraction is based on sex, if you are acting like Mr Businessman as you say you tend to do most of the time, then that is not sexy.

Chad gets the girls as he is in touch with his sexy side. 

If Chad always acts like a businessman he will struggle too. 

Nah look I am the quiet guy not the charming loud Chad. I have tried to compete there before and sure, I can make Chad look silly if the conversation branches into topics I am strong on but she is still going home with Chad. 

Spending time with A was I guess living vicariously because of once I did have what I wanted and I did not need to try convince myself I liked her. It would never have worked because she wanted Chad, not me, no matter what I did the outcome would have been the same. 

It may surprise a lot of you that I actually put others ahead of myself, she is happy with him so I am happy for her. Yesterday I went on  date, actually the third time I have met this person, granted the last time was two years ago and there was no attraction at all so it was easy for me to just go all businesslike, I am helping her do due diligence into an property she is looking to buy, again I like helping. 

I think the problem with me is there are people who really open me up, K, A and maybe three others spring to mind but that is hardly a long list. Where I sit it almost seems like I have had the best I am likely to get, in short what is there to look forward to when it comes to dating?

 

 

[elaine567]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

I have tried to compete there before and sure, I can make Chad look silly if the conversation branches into topics I am strong on but she is still going home with Chad. 

Of course she is because Chad excites her. You can't beat sex with facts and debate...
Why you would even try escapes me...

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Of course she is because Chad excites her. You can't beat sex with facts and debate...
Why you would even try escapes me...

Have to try something I suppose. I reckon it really comes down to a scorecard of sorts where everything is factored in, not least of which being social status and the seemingly vital opinions of her friends. 

I'll tell you its remarkably easy to walk around being bitter now, actually far easier than it was because I can almost justify it. In reality it does not matter how I sell myself to women they wont be interested anyway so why bother changing my approach? I have tried to be like Chad and its a forced disaster, I am simply not that person.  Ultimately I am forced to work with what I have which is nothing of consequence so the results are not really surprising now, they were when I actually believed I could accomplish what Chad does but as you so often like to tell me one needs to face the reality. But you know what, when I want to feel a bit better about this, I imagine another reality.

Sure, she might go home with him and I am learning to live with that one day at a time.

[mark clemson]

It's not between you and Chad, though. It's about you being attractive or at least being attractive enough as well as receptive to the other person.

I have never liked "competitive" situations, it always feels like there is game playing and insincere nonsense going on. So I have rarely gone to bars and the like to look for romance. Put me in a 1 on 1 situation and I can garner interest with many a girl just fine. Why bother dealing with some third wheel dude who's trying to horn in, etc.

Edited November 15, 2021 by mark clemson