Catfish

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

To what end?  Are you looking for attention or a relationship?  Living vicariously through someone else's image would become unfulfilling very quickly.

To the end I do get to live vicariously which is a LOT more pleasant than the reality of nothing. 

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

 

I've seen good looking guys who were completely inept with women.  Sure they get the dates but they can't close with anyone other than the women that see them as a 10.  OP is just using the looks hangup as a excuse to not compete.

I'd be happy just to get the dates....

Compete with what exactly, what about me is better that gives me a chance of actually competing? Nothing really at all.

Its not like I have anything fantastic that anyone would actually want.

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, basil67 said:

Yes, it's true that many women like a compliment.  But for the love of god, don't do them all at one time!    It's very poor game because it's lazy and transparent.   One compliment as part of a broader flirt will be far more successful.  

Getting to know a women with the goal of a relationship is really not that different.  Enjoyable conversation, flirting, smiling, creating connection, showing yourself as a sexual being and making her feel desired.   Thing is, the foundation of wanting a relationship is sexual desire.  If the sexual desire isn't stoked, then it's just a friendship.  And when you ask her out, don't be ambiguous.  Make sure she knows it's a date.  

At what point do men ever get complimented if ever? 

This is going to sound terrible but rarely do I feel the people I meet are compliment worthy, I have never ever been complimented even once on a date  but I suppose that is normal on this very much one way street.

You did answer my question why I get nowhere though

1: Enjoyable conversation: how do you define this, I have met people I really enjoyed chatting to, they even smiled and laughed.

2: Flirting: nope, not capable of doing that

3: Creating connection: do not know how to do that either.

4: Showing as a sexual being: don't know how to do that either unless my attempt at kissing counts, for which I got ghosted.

5: Making her feel desired: nope do not know how to do that either.

One out out of five will  never work, even I am not stupid enough to believe it could.

At least I can add abnormal to my list of talents.

Seriously though thank you for this, maybe its best I stick to spreadsheets and lease agreements and let those who have these qualities pursue dating. The above has been very helpful because now I can think back all these dates and see why they did not work, understanding why is quite important to me if for no other reason than some sort of closure.

What I like about this list is really all the things I have tried to improve are mostly irrelevant in terms of this, being more outgoing, more relaxed on dates, less serious, trying to do banter, eye contact, smiling, maybe some teasing, all are actually ineffective in the long run. The bigger irony is the precise actions of what I term "playboys" are encompassed in the above and it will be very very hard neigh on impossible for me to adopt that approach because I detest its fakeness so much. Again some good closure here.

All of this is probably why I am perceived the way I am by ladies, they probably cannot understand why I do not do any of these things. I think ultimately I realized I cant do any of these things so went for the friend zone approach but that does not work either.

Its very difficult sitting here to actually think what I can improve

1: I can try look better but face will always gong me out.

2: I am too shy and have zero confidence to even try flirt

3: For me creating connection could only happen if there is something in common in the broadest sense.

4: Doing that I'd just show I have zero experience and that will just be terribly awkward

5: Again with 4 incredibly hard to do.

At the end of the day the logical part of me suggests who in their right mind could be bothered with a 37yo basket case who cannot do with 95% of the other available guys can? 

Again thank you because knowingly or unknowingly you provided me with 20 years of answers in one post.

[Acacia98]

18 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Exactly.
Average guys attract average and below average women, but ZA Dater does not want to attract average women, his sights are set a whole lot higher than that...

I say that merely to point out that he is not ugly because that seems to be an ongoing theme.

And we're only talking about averageness in the looks department, not in every sense. I can look regular but have above-average intelligence or excel at nurturing or creativity or something else. Someone who is attracted to those traits could be drawn to me despite the fact that I'm no beauty queen or model. And that guy could himself be exceptionally good-looking by society's standards.

The idea that good-looking people only pair up with good-looking people is just not realistic in my world. Maybe it's the truth in these online spaces that people have created where superficiality and flakiness reign supreme. But in my world, i.e. offline, people basically pair up in the long term with people who make them happy. And what makes folks happy is not set in stone.

[ZA Dater]

23 minutes ago, Acacia98 said:

people basically pair up in the long term with people who make them happy. And what makes folks happy is not set in stone.

This might be the nicest thing I read this week. One of the great things I did accomplish was finding out what does make me happy. I think when you have a rough idea what this is one can in theory focus the search on finding that.

[basil67]

At what point do men ever get complimented if ever?    When a guy turns up for a date and is looking good, she'll likely compliment him.  That said, despite what you are told here about women and compliments, I'm not big on giving or receiving them for superficial reasons.  I'd rather receive a compliment on who I am, not what I look like. 

Enjoyable conversation (to the point where someone may want to see you again)  is defined by both of you not wanting the conversation with each other to end.  That you've just got more and more to talk about and there's not enough time in the evening to cover all there is to say

 For me creating connection could only happen if there is something in common in the broadest sense.  You won't get far if you can't be interested in things which you don't already know about.    For instance, when my met my BFF, I found she was an academic in a field I'd never given any thought to.  But the more we discussed this, the more interested I became and now I find that I can have the most interesting conversations on the topic with her.  The fact that I'm very much her junior doesn't mean that we can't have a common interest in this field.     We're also different in many other ways....but we're similar in that we're both weird and awkward in general and as such, don't feel weird and awkward with each other.   Listen and question on a topic you know nothing about and you'll learn something....and they will enjoy guiding.

 

 

[ZA Dater]

46 minutes ago, basil67 said:

At what point do men ever get complimented if ever?    When a guy turns up for a date and is looking good, she'll likely compliment him.  That said, despite what you are told here about women and compliments, I'm not big on giving or receiving them for superficial reasons.  I'd rather receive a compliment on who I am, not what I look like. 

Enjoyable conversation (to the point where someone may want to see you again)  is defined by both of you not wanting the conversation with each other to end.  That you've just got more and more to talk about and there's not enough time in the evening to cover all there is to say

 For me creating connection could only happen if there is something in common in the broadest sense.  You won't get far if you can't be interested in things which you don't already know about.    For instance, when my met my BFF, I found she was an academic in a field I'd never given any thought to.  But the more we discussed this, the more interested I became and now I find that I can have the most interesting conversations on the topic with her.  The fact that I'm very much her junior doesn't mean that we can't have a common interest in this field.     We're also different in many other ways....but we're similar in that we're both weird and awkward in general and as such, don't feel weird and awkward with each other.   Listen and question on a topic you know nothing about and you'll learn something....and they will enjoy guiding.

 

 

I have never been complimented on anything ever, this tends to run through my life in general though. Yeah I have had the enjoyable conversation maybe once ever.

Look I can talk about anything but really for me I just turn on business version of me and then yes I want to learn and understand and enquire but again this is rare because the dates I go on lack any sort of meat, mostly I feel like I am show pony there for an audition against a list of 20 other guys also there to audition so it makes no sense for her to say much its just about me convincing her I am better bet than the other 20 competitors.

Again its amazing how catfishing this problem does not exist, why because the ladies were actually trying to sell themselves.

Thanks again though sincerely for your earlier post, it answered and helped me make sense of a lot of things. The reality is those things and those limitations, I'd need something mega to make up for them and honestly that seems a stretch too far.

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, Acacia98 said:

The idea that good-looking people only pair up with good-looking people is just not realistic in my world.

There are exceptions, but generally it’s true. Good looking with good looking. Average with average. Ugly with ugly. It’s called the matching phenomenon or hypothesis. Lot’s of research to back it up.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matching_hypothesis
 

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, Weezy1973 said:

There are exceptions, but generally it’s true. Good looking with good looking. Average with average. Ugly with ugly. It’s called the matching phenomenon or hypothesis. Lot’s of research to back it up.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matching_hypothesis
 

Pretty depressing research if you ask me.

[elaine567]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

1: Enjoyable conversation: how do you define this, I have met people I really enjoyed chatting to, they even smiled and laughed.

2: Flirting: nope, not capable of doing that

3: Creating connection: do not know how to do that either.

4: Showing as a sexual being: don't know how to do that either unless my attempt at kissing counts, for which I got ghosted.

5: Making her feel desired: nope do not know how to do that either.

So what exactly DID you think dating was about?

14 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The reality is those things and those limitations, I'd need something mega to make up for them and honestly that seems a stretch too far.

Why do you think you need to "make up for them".
Surely none of these things can not be overcome by some application and the acquiring of skills?

 

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

So what exactly DID you think dating was about?

Why do you think you need to "make up for them".
Surely none of these things can not be overcome by some application and the acquiring of skills?

 

Please lets be realistic here I do not have those skills and nobody wants to teach so its pretty much pointless.

What did I think it was, friendship with sex to be honest.

 

[Alpacalia]

Do you find it attractive to date someone who is preoccupied with themselves and their perceived flaws, as well as how they compare to others?

Sure, once in a while. Self-comparison is a fairly common and natural occurrence.

Surely there has to be a more intimate way to communicate with and bond with the opposite sex.

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

What did I think it was, friendship with sex to be honest.

Why would a woman want to have sex with a friend?.
Women put men into the friendzone every day, and once assigned as a friend he usually stays there.
Not lover material = friend.

 

[Foxhall]

You have always interesting threads.

two pieces for you today.

ok so the problem is you are shy, quiet and have no self esteem (at least with dating women).  Its not always your fault either, there can be no pleasing some women, so maybe dont be as hard on yourself.

Would you be able to find a way to spend a few months somewhere in eastern europe. 

Eastern european women are  perhaps more open than most to guys who are shy and quiet.

You might pick up a Russian blonde or someone,

lol I could probably get you a blind date or two in Budapest, through my Hungarian friend!

 

Then the other thing- you need to pick up some intimate experience with women, you are trying to find a stunningly beautiful woman with an engaging personality without any previous experience,

that must be nearly an impossibility,

you need to find an average girl, a 4 or a 5 (sorry if thats a bit crude ladies- locker room talk) to gain some intimate practice with and build your confidence with women,

you are well capable of landing an average girl I imagine.

then you might have some hopes of landing the top model in the future.

 

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

Why would a woman want to have sex with a friend?.
Women put men into the friendzone every day, and once assigned as a friend he usually stays there.
Not lover material = friend.

 

I have never really seen much difference between the two to be honest.  Maybe the difference is superficial qualities count less with friends and the kind of things I am good at do apparently count more.

[elaine567]

You are perfect  friend material and are not lover material, because your whole vibe is platonic.
Unless you bring sex into the equation, you will never be considered anything else.
The fact you seem unable to form a connection, will mean any friendship will fail too.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, Foxhall said:

You have always interesting threads.

two pieces for you today.

ok so the problem is you are shy, quiet and have no self esteem (at least with dating women).  Its not always your fault either, there can be no pleasing some women, so maybe dont be as hard on yourself.

Would you be able to find a way to spend a few months somewhere in eastern europe. 

Eastern european women are  perhaps more open than most to guys who are shy and quiet.

You might pick up a Russian blonde or someone,

lol I could probably get you a blind date or two in Budapest, through my Hungarian friend!

 

Then the other thing- you need to pick up some intimate experience with women, you are trying to find a stunningly beautiful woman with an engaging personality without any previous experience,

that must be nearly an impossibility,

you need to find an average girl, a 4 or a 5 (sorry if thats a bit crude ladies- locker room talk) to gain some intimate practice with and build your confidence with women,

you are well capable of landing an average girl I imagine.

then you might have some hopes of landing the top model in the future.

 

I am bit far down the road of life to consider those ideas. For me I simply cannot fathom why inexperience is continually used as a deal breaker, yet I am told it is over and over again. Look a friend tricked me one evening and we landed in the VIP section of a strip club. What the point of this was I have no idea because the entire experience was unpleasant because it was totally fake.  I cant remove my brain in that respect so it was a pointless idea and experience and then I think how many other men have leered over these ladies and why they do this....I think you can see the problem!

The chronic problem is I am beyond bitter, more so now than ever before. 

Morally I am not ok with using people to acquire experience, I just could not do that and I'd feel very bad about doing that.  I do not want a top model, I simply want someone I enjoy spending time with who actually engages with me.

I can tell you it was amazing when I went catfishing how much attention I did get, suddenly it was everyone wanted to spend time with me , irrespective of what activity.

Years ago I did consider the Eastern Europe idea but its just not viable and again I'd have the same moral issue with that and I'd have exactly the same competition there as I have here.

Its telling though that the ladies I have met socially from there had a far warmer personality than many I had met who grew up here.

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

You are perfect  friend material and are not lover material, because your whole vibe is platonic.
Unless you bring sex into the equation, you will never be considered anything else.
The fact you seem unable to form a connection, will mean any friendship will fail too.

True. 

The best I can do is what I call the "friend fling" which is basically a friendship that lasts until I have no use for that person any longer. Its just a different version of the date and throw away policy but at least for that time I do enjoy some sort of benefit in that I feel good for some degree of attention.

People understate the effect positive attention has on people, which is why cat fish was not so bad because I felt good getting attention from people I found attractive.

I never find a connection because there is nothing to connect over. 

[elaine567]

11 minutes ago, Foxhall said:

you need to find an average girl, a 4 or a 5 (sorry if thats a bit crude ladies- locker room talk) to gain some intimate practice with and build your confidence with women,

you are well capable of landing an average girl I imagine.

then you might have some hopes of landing the top model in the future.

If you read ZA Dater's threads he is vehemently against such an action.
And just because he can get am average girl into bed does not mean he will do any better with attracting a top model or the highly sought after women he wants..
He is still who he is.  That is male fantasy talk.
If I bedded Joe Bloggs tomorrow would that mean I could then date any number of highly desirable men? 

[Foxhall]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

If you read ZA Dater's threads he is vehemently against such an action.
And just because he can get am average girl into bed does not mean he will do any better with attracting a top model or the highly sought after women he wants..
He is still who he is.  That is male fantasy talk.
If I bedded Joe Bloggs tomorrow would that mean I could then date any number of highly desirable men? 

Yes ok I am not reading them in as much detail,

I think though that, yes actually, by becoming more comfortable in intimate situations it will improve a persons chances,

sometimes it is just simple nervousness that can hold a person back- by controlling the mind , overcoming the fears , that can lead to better outcomes

[Foxhall]

13 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Morally I am not ok with using people to acquire experience, I just could not do that and I'd feel very bad about doing that

Yes fair enough- no doubt you are an honourable guy at heart,

I actually see a lot of similarities between yourself and I- that does'nt mean I can help you in any meaningful way,

I certainly connect with your stories of struggles with women,

I dont know, at 41 I am probably at the best I have ever been with women, I think it is getting to know a lot of women even just as friends- that has improved my situation,

 

so keep going anyway!

 

[ZA Dater]

6 minutes ago, Foxhall said:

Yes ok I am not reading them in as much detail,

I think though that, yes actually, by becoming more comfortable in intimate situations it will improve a persons chances,

sometimes it is just simple nervousness that can hold a person back- by controlling the mind , overcoming the fears , that can lead to better outcomes

I believe in this to the extent you still need to have the person sitting in front of you, when I cannot even get that far then this effectively a near impossible challenge. You are right though if I had more experience of success I might have more confidence of being successful. I honestly think this was the idea behind the strip club.

I'll overshare now but how many of you can really relate to actually nobody caring about you, I do not celebrate birthdays because by FAR they and other traditional holidays are the loneliest days of the year for me but also what is there to celebrate? 

Believe it or not I go out there with the best of intentions and derive the worst of results. You want to know where my bitterness comes from, it comes from the simple fact I am always passed over, never good enough, there is always some other guy who has more, there is always this wrong and that wrong and never ever is there a positive outcome to be had. All of you put on those shoes and tell me you would see the world differently? 

 

[Weezy1973]

49 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

For me I simply cannot fathom why inexperience is continually used as a deal breaker, yet I am told it is over and over again.

It’s not the inexperience. It’s the lack of confidence in you due to your perception that lack of sexual experience is unattractive. You’re afraid to escalate anything sexually. A deep fear of rejection and ridicule keeps you from being considered a romantic option. Not the inexperience. The fear.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Morally I am not ok with using people to acquire experience, I just could not do that and I'd feel very bad about doing that.

Why would you be using them? Just let people know your honest intentions for the start - that you’re not in a place for a relationship right now and just looking for something casual. As long as you’re honest, you’re not using anybody. 

[ZA Dater]

45 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Why would you be using them? Just let people know your honest intentions for the start - that you’re not in a place for a relationship right now and just looking for something casual. As long as you’re honest, you’re not using anybody. 

Idea does not interest me at all. Partly because nobody I find interesting would be remotely interested when they can go out and find better. Again it's all or nothing for me, I have come close to paying a few times but morally it doesn't sit with me and it doesn't get me someone to take to dinner or any of the things I reay want.