Catfish

[Weezy1973]

9 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Um, I am confused, how can it possibly be the same when these are people I do not find attractive.

 

You said everyone dismisses you because of superficial reasons. It isn’t true. 

 

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Lets think about this, how do you propose I enjoy some success with people I do not find attractive and can that even be called success to begin with?

One of the qualities that you find very attractive in a woman is that she isn’t interested in you. Pretty much guarantees you’ll never succeed. And you never have.

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Leagues are a function of how we think, are you telling me you would not take all dating opportunities with attractive people at face value or do you then limit yourself from the start?

It’s weird that you dismiss the notion of leagues, yet your lack of success is a direct result of the fact that leagues exist. In your own words, you’re not superficially attractive yet you’re only attracted to superficially attractive women. And so you’ve never seen any success. Due to leagues. Which you deny exist. Can you see the flaws in your thinking? 

[ZA Dater]

12 hours ago, Foxhall said:

It is admirable in a way how you hold out for what you believe in, I always like your thoughts such as highlighted above. 

would it be so bad though to settle for a 7 out of 10,

the Eva Green lookalike you desire- you may have to some day accept that it is not achievable,

your not at the acceptance stage yet,

Your confidence levels at interacting ,however, are far removed from where your need to be to attract that type of woman,

I think it is as much or more confidence and personality that you need as it is looks.

how can you build the necessary confidence-

Most people would date lesser looking women in an attempt to build confidence but then again if you have absolutely no attraction to them, I suppose its unfair on them to fake it.

your best way forward- dont know really- I think you need someone above my payscale to help you with that,

Perhaps what is not so easy to explain is its not like I am holding out for a supposed 10 but there simply needs to be something that I find attractive, mostly to be honest there is nothing I find attractive about many of the dates I go on. Attraction can be someone who engages with me, has a warm personality, has an interesting job, has an interesting point of view, speak well, equally a model can be very unattractive if all she has are looks. BUT and this is the kicker here, someone completely physically unattractive who has some of those qualities will not be attractive to me.

Here is another example, I once met, via a friend someone was actually very nice to me and who I did find attractive but I could see there was simply no compatibility , I'd not be the trance party bf she would want and frankly I take a dim view on recreational use of whatever you want to add here. Overall though she was very attractive and personality wise there was definitely something different about her which I really liked. What I really liked was she actually put in effort to converse with me.

My confidence level is very low at actually trying to 'date" I can sit and converse with whoever about whatever but that is where my game starts and stops. As for the Eva Green look alike, I did take her to dinner, had a great conversation and that really was that, do not regret it, she was really lovely overall and I enjoyed spending time with her. 

[ZA Dater]

12 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

You said everyone dismisses you because of superficial reasons. It isn’t true. 

 

One of the qualities that you find very attractive in a woman is that she isn’t interested in you. Pretty much guarantees you’ll never succeed. And you never have.

It’s weird that you dismiss the notion of leagues, yet your lack of success is a direct result of the fact that leagues exist. In your own words, you’re not superficially attractive yet you’re only attracted to superficially attractive women. And so you’ve never seen any success. Due to leagues. Which you deny exist. Can you see the flaws in your thinking? 

Again if there is no mutual attraction what sort of success it is really, I'd say its not a success at all? No, I am not going to settle for someone I do not find attractive simply becaue the people I do find attractive are not interested, that will simply never work for me. 

Leagues have been created based on class, education, economics and yes superficial looks but when you sit down and think about it its actually nonsense, I have spent enough time around people who have nothing and those who have everything to tell you that fundamentally as people they are the same, because someone is a swimwear model does not make her better than me or too good for me? Why would that be the case? Again I have gone on dates with people from very different backgrounds and that does not define them as people and it certainly does not define their worth.

When I read "I cant date her because she is above my league" that's garbage in my opinion, all that is, is a limiting perception. Yes, the athletic ladies are not lining up to date me, the opposite are, the fact I do not find the opposite attractive does not diminish their worth and unlike some people I know I would not simply date them to have sex and then disappear. 

The reality is I guess and this is true of many, at a party the person who catches your eye will be the one you want to talk to, it matters now that someone else may actually be more interesting, at that moment its about how they look and perhaps how they interact. 

I wont lie my dating energy is pretty defeatist and I am pretty closed off the idea and it would be stupid to think women do not pick that up. There is absolutely no confidence in me when it comes to dating, none at all and when people ask why, well its easy, I cant find much confidence in rejection. 

The only thing that keeps me interested is some belief that actually just maybe someone will arrive, there is mutual attraction and all the many things which are red flags about me are not seen as such. Its a big ask.

 

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Leagues have been created based on class, education, economics and yes superficial looks

Leagues are about options and that’s it. While some of these things may impact one’s options, they’re not really relevant. The only thing that matters is the options.
 

While nobody is universally attractive in the absolute sense (attractive to literally everybody), there are people that are more universally attractive than others. That’s it. If you can acknowledge that, you understand leagues. And if you can’t acknowledge that, then you can’t see reality. 
 

Tom Brady is going to have more options and more attractive options than most men on the planet. That’s just a fact. And Tom Brady married a super model who is a successful business woman.

 

And the second part of the equation is like pairs up with like. 10s with 10s, 5s with 5s, and 1s with 1s. When we talk about aspirational dating, we’re talking about the tendency to find people  somewhat out of our league the most attractive. So if you’re a 5, you’ll be most attracted to 6s and 7s. Generally not 10s even though you can acknowledge objectively they’re very attractive, you’re unlikely to have any serious interest because you subconsciously know there’s no chance at all. Truth is though there’s also very little to no chance with those 6s or 7s either as pretty much nobody is attracted to someone less attractive than themselves. 
 

While you may think aspirational dating is admirable as it is aiming high, you’ve got it mistaken. Aspiring to be a better version of yourself and therefore becoming more attractive is admirable. Staying the same and wanting to date someone more attractive than yourself is not admirable at all. 

 

 

[dramafreezone]

It sounds as if your major obstacles are as follows: 

-restricting your viable dating pool down to a select few women who far exceed you in physical appearance

-being either unwilling or unable to improve your value by increasing the things you can control such as physical fitness, career, style

-resenting the fact that women want what they want without compromise, despite the fact that you are steadfast in what you want and make no compromises

The third is really the main problem, because if you were not resentful you'd make the necessary change of either decreasing your asking price for what you offer or increasing your value.  All of this talk boils down to that last comment, either take what's available to you based or increase your value.

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Leagues are about options and that’s it. While some of these things may impact one’s options, they’re not really relevant. The only thing that matters is the options.
 

While nobody is universally attractive in the absolute sense (attractive to literally everybody), there are people that are more universally attractive than others. That’s it. If you can acknowledge that, you understand leagues. And if you can’t acknowledge that, then you can’t see reality. 
 

Tom Brady is going to have more options and more attractive options than most men on the planet. That’s just a fact. And Tom Brady married a super model who is a successful business woman.

 

And the second part of the equation is like pairs up with like. 10s with 10s, 5s with 5s, and 1s with 1s. When we talk about aspirational dating, we’re talking about the tendency to find people  somewhat out of our league the most attractive. So if you’re a 5, you’ll be most attracted to 6s and 7s. Generally not 10s even though you can acknowledge objectively they’re very attractive, you’re unlikely to have any serious interest because you subconsciously know there’s no chance at all. Truth is though there’s also very little to no chance with those 6s or 7s either as pretty much nobody is attracted to someone less attractive than themselves. 
 

While you may think aspirational dating is admirable as it is aiming high, you’ve got it mistaken. Aspiring to be a better version of yourself and therefore becoming more attractive is admirable. Staying the same and wanting to date someone more attractive than yourself is not admirable at all. 

Well I disagree on this. For me it makes zero sense to date people I do not find attractive and I asked this before, with the above you simply imply that people simply settle for what they actually do not want which surely CANNOT be the case?

Sure, yes some are more universally attractive by acknowledging that you basically admit superficial qualities are very important, glad we agree on this. Why on earth would someone not want to date attractive people, why would I for example want to settle for someone who cannot run a mile when I actually want someone who can? Why would I settle for that and yes its a stupid example. Why would I settle for someone who has completely different values to me? 

As for staying the same, neither I nor anyone for that matter remains the same, heck my choice just get worse and the potential dates I have just become ever more unappealing to the point where I'd rather not even bother.  That is probably the difference, many guys would simply just date anyone for no other reason that well perhaps that person showed them a modicum of interest. I knew guys who fell into this category and I could never ever see the attraction. Its really for this reason I actually do not care about going to events and functions on my own and being the only person without a partner because I am better off without a partner than with one who simply cannot fit in. 

I'll concede it is about options, some people are deemed desirable and others like me are not but where I differ is why should I simply make do with someone I am not interested in what do I actually gain by doing this? In my opinion nothing at all. 

 

 

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, dramafreezone said:

It sounds as if your major obstacles are as follows: 

-restricting your viable dating pool down to a select few women who far exceed you in physical appearance

-being either unwilling or unable to improve your value by increasing the things you can control such as physical fitness, career, style

-resenting the fact that women want what they want without compromise, despite the fact that you are steadfast in what you want and make no compromises

The third is really the main problem, because if you were not resentful you'd make the necessary change of either decreasing your asking price for what you offer or increasing your value.  All of this talk boils down to that last comment, either take what's available to you based or increase your value.

No, I look at it like this. What do they have to offer me, how are they going to impress me? I am not interested in this show pony nonsense where I need to jump through hoops in order to be viewed as worthy of a conversation. I make an effort to look good, am fairly fit and slim, I can talk about most topics and I am well aware of the good qualities I have but I am NOT going to go chasing like some dog being thrown a ball. I have spent years in this pond doing exactly that and its a waste of time because there is always someone else better so why waste any time looking. 

Why must I make any compromises, I have yet to have any date make any compromises for me, heck this stupid cat fish experiment was fascination because I got levels of attention I spent years chasing and never found. No in fact that mistake I made 20 odd years ago was to think this was some sort of compromise and I bent over backward to try be what I thought people wanted and this got me nowhere at all. Compromise is a two way street and I'd happily compromise for someone I actually liked and with whom I wanted to spend time but I refuse to do so when someone does not interest me, I learnt this from the people I did try to date who used exactly the same method on me. 

Why must I change my style, I am perfectly comfortable with it, this is where the next lot of nonsense kicks in which I stupidly fell for, every so called make over I have had has yielded no better result, I wish I was simply called ugly when I was growing up, it would have solved many of these problems, instead dating has made me realise how ugly I actually am. 

No the point is I am not going to go out and guess if people are interested and run around like some of these Chad's and try impress all and sundry at all costs all while pretending to be someone I am not. Why if she is interested in me she can show some interest which is actually understandable/obvious.

My value as a person is not dictated by who I can date, my value is determined by my own values, morals and beliefs. I go out and I know people gossip, I never get the attention the other guys, heck most of the time women do not ever give me the time of the day.

As for taking what is available, I'd rather have nothing and I can live with that decision, its inevitable anyway because not matter what I do there will always be something wrong which makes me unattractive. Its easier to just live in a work world 24/7 and adopt the same hard nosed approach which is required to swim in that pond.

[elaine567]

28 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Why if she is interested in me she can show some interest which is actually understandable/obvious.

Why do you think you find it so difficult to interpret what I guess most can suss out easily?
You have said before you have literally no idea whether a woman is interested or not.

[mark clemson]

I haven't read every page, but from what I can see your thoughts seem to keep moving in the same general circle. Interested in a woman, but no there are problems, interested, but no, interested, but no, interested, but no, etc, etc on and on.

So I think if you really want to actually make progress you need to address (not just recognize, because it seems you do recognize them) the issues that cause the "but no".

Given how many people of various stripes and circumstances are out there with partners, I think this is primarily a job for a talented therapist. Beyond that I suspect you're likely to simply keep "spinning your wheels" indefinitely.

Just my two cents.

[dramafreezone]

20 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

No, I look at it like this. What do they have to offer me, how are they going to impress me? I am not interested in this show pony nonsense where I need to jump through hoops in order to be viewed as worthy of a conversation. I make an effort to look good, am fairly fit and slim, I can talk about most topics and I am well aware of the good qualities I have but I am NOT going to go chasing like some dog being thrown a ball. I have spent years in this pond doing exactly that and its a waste of time because there is always someone else better so why waste any time looking. 

Why must I make any compromises, I have yet to have any date make any compromises for me, heck this stupid cat fish experiment was fascination because I got levels of attention I spent years chasing and never found. No in fact that mistake I made 20 odd years ago was to think this was some sort of compromise and I bent over backward to try be what I thought people wanted and this got me nowhere at all. Compromise is a two way street and I'd happily compromise for someone I actually liked and with whom I wanted to spend time but I refuse to do so when someone does not interest me, I learnt this from the people I did try to date who used exactly the same method on me. 

Why must I change my style, I am perfectly comfortable with it, this is where the next lot of nonsense kicks in which I stupidly fell for, every so called make over I have had has yielded no better result, I wish I was simply called ugly when I was growing up, it would have solved many of these problems, instead dating has made me realise how ugly I actually am. 

No the point is I am not going to go out and guess if people are interested and run around like some of these Chad's and try impress all and sundry at all costs all while pretending to be someone I am not. Why if she is interested in me she can show some interest which is actually understandable/obvious.

My value as a person is not dictated by who I can date, my value is determined by my own values, morals and beliefs. I go out and I know people gossip, I never get the attention the other guys, heck most of the time women do not ever give me the time of the day.

As for taking what is available, I'd rather have nothing and I can live with that decision, its inevitable anyway because not matter what I do there will always be something wrong which makes me unattractive. Its easier to just live in a work world 24/7 and adopt the same hard nosed approach which is required to swim in that pond.

What I don't get is how you're so apparently steadfast in your values and what not, yet you're attracted to people that clearly do not share the same values.

[ZA Dater]

22 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Why do you think you find it so difficult to interpret what I guess most can suss out easily?
You have said before you have literally no idea whether a woman is interested or not.

Simply put I have better things to do than try figure out if someone is interested, for years I tried this with no real success so as part of an effort to actually try think less about everything I simply parked this trying to interpret idea and what I realised, if someone puts not effort into a conversation that is a sure sign of no interest.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, mark clemson said:

I haven't read every page, but from what I can see your thoughts seem to keep moving in the same general circle. Interested in a woman, but no there are problems, interested, but no, interested, but no, interested, but no, etc, etc on and on.

So I think if you really want to actually make progress you need to address (not just recognize, because it seems you do recognize them) the issues that cause the "but no".

Given how many people of various stripes and circumstances are out there with partners, I think this is primarily a job for a talented therapist. Beyond that I suspect you're likely to simply keep "spinning your wheels" indefinitely.

Just my two cents.

I never really find what I want and when I do they are never interested in me so there is never much positive to take out of this, what keeps me in the game and looking is a very specific ideal I have and the idea that if I can somehow experience that I can simply park dating for good.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

What I don't get is how you're so apparently steadfast in your values and what not, yet you're attracted to people that clearly do not share the same values.

I go from the point of view, nobody I find attractive will ever find me attractive so in a sense I just chase an unlikely idea, which from time to time I get pieces of which make me hold into the idea, I hold onto possibility, that is really the essence of it.

 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

…so in a sense I just chase an unlikely idea, which from time to time I get pieces of which make me hold into the idea, I hold onto possibility, that is really the essence of it.

 

What you’re doing is choosing to live in a fantasy world so you can protect yourself from potential pain. You’ve created a perfect feedback loop where you’re guaranteed to never be in a relationship, experience love, have sex etc. And by doing so you protect yourself from the potential pain of rejection, breaking up, being cheated on, having a loved one die etc. 

 

The downside of which you’re also experiencing. No connection. Loneliness. Anger and resentment. Likely to be followed by depression and possible worse. 
 

On your deathbed will you be happy to say “I’m so grateful to never have loved in the real world. But I still had my fantasies…”?

[dramafreezone]

22 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I go from the point of view, nobody I find attractive will ever find me attractive so in a sense I just chase an unlikely idea, which from time to time I get pieces of which make me hold into the idea, I hold onto possibility, that is really the essence of it.

 

You're contradicting yourself at this point, on the one hand you said "nobody I find attractive will ever find me attractive" and in the same breath you said you're chasing an "unlikely idea."  You inferred an impossibility with your first statement and an improbability with your second, so which is it?  There is a world of difference between the two.

I will presuppose that your assessment is accurate for the sake of conversation.  If you have been out on dates, we can eliminate the possibility that you cannot attract anyone.  Then one of the following has is probably true:

- You deliberately seek out and are attracted only to people who are not interested in you.  Meaning that the primary criteria for you being attracted to them is not their physical appearance, but the fact that they're not interested in you.

- OR you treat the people that you're attracted to differently than the ones you're not attracted to.

[Weezy1973]

7 hours ago, dramafreezone said:.

I will presuppose that your assessment is accurate for the sake of conversation.  If you have been out on dates, we can eliminate the possibility that you cannot attract anyone.  Then one of the following has is probably true:

- You deliberately seek out and are attracted only to people who are not interested in you.  Meaning that the primary criteria for you being attracted to them is not their physical appearance, but the fact that they're not interested in you.

- OR you treat the people that you're attracted to differently than the ones you're not attracted to.

Just because he (or any of us really) can attract some people, doesn’t mean he can attract, for example, a model. 

[dramafreezone]

5 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Just because he (or any of us really) can attract some people, doesn’t mean he can attract, for example, a model. 

I've attracted women that I consider "out of my league."  Attraction is a funny thing, and it really depends on where that woman is.  You never really know what different women like.

A lot of times it's about timing.  @ZA Datersays that all women care about are the guys with the cars and riches, but he doesn't realize that those guys also cheat a lot.  Sometimes once a woman's been cheated on enough she gets tired of those guys and will be open to someone not in her "league," and she'll give a shot to someone that she normally wouldn't.  It's happened to me and I've seen it happen.   He could be that guy if he applied himself, played the numbers game and just relentlessly asked out enough women.  Some really beautiful woman would give him a chance, I firmly believe that.

So I reject this idea that he couldn't attract a model even if that was his lofty goal.  But he doesn't have the positive mindset needed for that, no woman, much less a beautiful woman with options, wants to hang around someone who's a downer, whos negative all the time like he is. 

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

Sometimes once a woman's been cheated on enough she gets tired of those guys and will be open to someone not in her "league," and she'll give a shot to someone that she normally wouldn't. 

But by definition if he’s gotten a woman above his league, she’s settled for a guy below her league. Nobody is shooting for someone less attractive than themselves. But sure an emotionally damaged person might stoop lower to try to gain some confidence. Not the type of person you want to start a relationship with though. 

[elaine567]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

But sure an emotionally damaged person might stoop lower to try to gain some confidence. Not the type of person you want to start a relationship with though. 

Yes this is the only way IMO he is going to attract the  "top tier " woman he wants.
He thought he had found her in  A, the young widow. Beautiful but damaged by circumstance, but it was not meant to be.
She recovered her sense of well being pretty quick and  chose a guy who she perceived to be in her league.

I think many people get stuck with essentially "damaged" people. Damaged people who have "stooped lower" in order to find a date, or to find anyone who will put up with them.
The lower league player is "wowed" by being able to acquire such a great "catch", but then has to wade through all the other issues and baggage in order to try to maintain a relationship. 
ZA, you may think that finding a date is hard, but that is just the first step on a  long road,..

[bene]

I don’t think that leagues are so straightforward that you could arrange all people in the world in order of attractiveness and then pair with each other. At least I’d be in trouble if asked to “rate” people like this. For example a basketball player can be a god for many people but someone who doesn’t care for basketball may just think “that’s nice that you play sports”. A Nobel prize winner is highly regarded in some circles while others have no idea that he even exists. 

Then there’s pure subjectiveness. I suppose everyone has thought “I don’t know what she sees in him” on occasion.

Yes, we can make broad generalizations  that a fit good looking guy who is successful in his field is more attractive than a deadbeat alcoholic who can’t keep a job but even here there are examples to prove otherwise.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, bene said:

Yes, we can make broad generalizations  that a fit good looking guy who is successful in his field is more attractive than a deadbeat alcoholic who can’t keep a job but even here there are examples to prove otherwise.

Again, it’s about options. Some people have more, and more attractive options than others. All things being equal, a slim woman will have more, and more attractive options than a fat woman. A man with an athletic build will have more, and more attractive options than an obese man. If you can acknowledge that reality, you understand leagues. There of course is subjectivity on an individual basis. 

[dramafreezone]

11 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

But by definition if he’s gotten a woman above his league, she’s settled for a guy below her league. Nobody is shooting for someone less attractive than themselves.

But it happens though, that's all I'm saying, we've all seen a couple and we think to ourselves "how'd he do that?"  I'm thinking of a few co-workers and I've seen photos of their husbands, I've just seen too much evidence, looks are not what's holding OP back.

The total package is what matters with women.  Women are not as shallow as guys, while looks matter we enhance our chances with confidence, fitness, intrigue, being worldly.

If she's willing to give him a shot, then that's enough, it's up to him to fan that small ember into a flame.

[Weezy1973]

12 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

But it happens though, that's all I'm saying, we've all seen a couple and we think to ourselves "how'd he do that?" 

While there may be the odd mismatch in looks, that doesn’t mean there’s a mismatch in leagues. Leagues are about options, and as you say men have a number of ways to enhance their attractiveness. Having a great career, being charismatic and outgoing, having a great sense of humour etc. are all things that can give a guy more options. The few couples I’ve met where there is a mismatch with the woman being more attractive, the guy had all those other traits.

The OP does not  have those traits. He’s serious. Does not have a sense of humour. Not much charisma. Has a decent career, but not compared to the wealthy men he associates with. He doesn’t have any confidence at all. He can debate. And once you get to know him you realize he is reliable and honest and loyal.

[dramafreezone]

13 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

While there may be the odd mismatch in looks, that doesn’t mean there’s a mismatch in leagues. Leagues are about options, and as you say men have a number of ways to enhance their attractiveness. Having a great career, being charismatic and outgoing, having a great sense of humour etc. are all things that can give a guy more options. The few couples I’ve met where there is a mismatch with the woman being more attractive, the guy had all those other traits.

 

Yeah that's true, I think I temporarily forgot my point.  Yes the "league" is about options.  

The OPs problem is that he's unwilling to make a concerted effort to make up the difference since he is missing the charisma.  He thinks he should just be able to show up as he is now and get the level of woman he wants.  I think it's more that he doesn't think he has to get better, more than an inability to improve.

[elaine567]

5 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

He thinks he should just be able to show up as he is now and get the level of woman he wants.

He has a great belief in who he is, so whilst he gives the impression by his negative attitude that his self esteem is low and  his ego is in his boots.
In reality his ego flies high and it is everyone else who doesn't get how great he actually is...