Catfish

[Weezy1973]

18 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Exactly! Very good advice that which is going to be my new way I look at this, go the friend route of it is offered and just be happy enough with that and yes I in my mind can compete with other guys even if the reality is I cannot but if I go the friend route I do not need to compete anyway.

Excellent! So you’ve decided not to do anything different at all! Just continue with the same cycle. Going the “friend zone” route when available so you can fantasize about more, but nothing else. Live in your fantasy world and never actually have to take any risks whatsoever. Nothing new here at all.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Weezy1973

[Wiseman2]

It's that commonly referred to as "orbiting"?☄️🌍

Edited June 11, 2021 by Wiseman2

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Exactly! Very good advice that which is going to be my new way I look at this, go the friend route of it is offered and just be happy enough with that and yes I in my mind can compete with other guys even if the reality is I cannot but if I go the friend route I do not need to compete anyway.

You will still be competing.
Do you really think any woman is going to want to hang out platonically with you, when some other guy is available?
Other guys will not put up with you hanging out with their gf, for very long either.

Most people want their own "special friend" i.e. a lover/partner, bf/gf,  husband/wife, and set out to get one, they do not "platonically"  hang around other people like a spare part.

More delusional thought processes from you
All because you are scared to take it from friendship (cosy comforting reassuring) you can do friendship, to romance (frightening, risky, the unknown...) you can't do romance...
The huge hurdle you now apparently refuse to even attempt to jump.

[elaine567]

44 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

It's that commonly referred to as "orbiting"?☄️🌍

Not really, though similar.
An orbiter is hanging around waiting for a chance to turn friendship into dating/sleeping together.
ZA is just going to be hanging around...

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Excellent! So you’ve decided not to do anything different at all! Just continue with the same cycle. Going the “friend zone” route when available so you can fantasize about more, but nothing else. Live in your fantasy world and never actually have to take any risks whatsoever. Nothing new here at all.

The ROI is far far better or me doing that that mindlessly trying to find people attractive I do not. Happy to risks where there is some sort of possibility of reward/success.

[ZA Dater]

56 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

You will still be competing.
Do you really think any woman is going to want to hang out platonically with you, when some other guy is available?
Other guys will not put up with you hanging out with their gf, for very long either.

Most people want their own "special friend" i.e. a lover/partner, bf/gf,  husband/wife, and set out to get one, they do not "platonically"  hang around other people like a spare part.

More delusional thought processes from you
All because you are scared to take it from friendship (cosy comforting reassuring) you can do friendship, to romance (frightening, risky, the unknown...) you can't do romance...
The huge hurdle you now apparently refuse to even attempt to jump.

Jump for what? To know from the outset ABC is never going to be interested in me that way, been there far too many time and oddly each time I do attempt that jump the result is the same as every single time before that. 

Someone who is not possessive would have no issue with that, or is every single guy possessive.....

My friend is on reflection probably correct, just be their friend in some way or form and let be what will be. 

I set out to find that person for 20 odd years and am not closer to meeting that person never mind dating them so I might as well give up that ideal and pursue one which is relatively speaking as difficult but one where I have had a bit more positivity and a bit more success.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

The ROI is far far better or me doing that that mindlessly trying to find people attractive I do not. Happy to risks where there is some sort of possibility of reward/success.

Despite claiming otherwise, you actually have found yourself in the presence of women you find attractive. And, when I say “risk” there actually isn’t any risk at all. It’s all in your head. If you express interest in a woman and she isn’t interested in you, what have you lost? If you go in for a kiss and she turns her head because she’s not interested, what have you lost? Nothing. You’re not risking anything.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

All because you are scared to take it from friendship (cosy comforting reassuring) you can do friendship,

No he can’t. He doesn’t have any friends. Anything that involves any kind of intimacy be it friendships or romantic he is too afraid to do. 

[ZA Dater]

20 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Despite claiming otherwise, you actually have found yourself in the presence of women you find attractive. And, when I say “risk” there actually isn’t any risk at all. It’s all in your head. If you express interest in a woman and she isn’t interested in you, what have you lost? If you go in for a kiss and she turns her head because she’s not interested, what have you lost? Nothing. You’re not risking anything.

Yes ones which I knew were never going to be attracted to me so what exactly is the point. There was zero indication I would be their pick in a market with much better options than me so yes you say there is no risk there also no reward either. You also ignore how awkward the above is.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

All because you are scared to take it from friendship

Its doubtful I ever get to this point, I am a friend so long as I have a use but when that need is fulfilled then I am shoved back into the cold again, I do not begrudge this, its simply how the world works.

I do now know too many people who phone me and ask me to hang out with them, in fact this almost never happens so that says everything really. Again I can feel bad about this or just ignore it, ignoring it feels better to me.

[Weezy1973]

23 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

There was zero indication I would be their pick in a market with much better options than me

No such thing as “better”. Just more or less compatible. Again, as many have pointed out, you’re never going to get the “I’m interested in you” signal from the types of women you find attractive. Not that some of them might consider it IF you show some confidence and make it clear you’re interested in them. The types of women that are going to show clear interest in you are the ones that are trying to get a guy (you in this case) out of their league. They’ll be much more blatant about it.

As I’ve said before, I wasn’t attracted to any of the women that messaged me first in OLD. The difference is I didn’t take this as any indication of my level of attractiveness.You seem to. Just because a woman swiped right on you doesn’t mean that’s your “league”. And conversely if none of the women you swiped right on were matching with you, you’d know you were shooting out of your league. But once in awhile you do get a match and that perfectly normal. You tend to spin this as negatively as possible, but trust me it’s pretty normal for an average looking guy. I’d say I’d get a match for every 100+ women I swiped right on. But I also knew I was swiping on women out of my league. Why? Because it’s as little effort as one can do. It’s literally just making a swiping motion on your phone. Did any of them match with me? No. But a few that were in my league did. And not many. But a few. And that’s fine. 

[Weezy1973]

24 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I am a friend so long as I have a use but when that need is fulfilled then I am shoved back into the cold again, I do not begrudge this, its simply how the world works.

It’s not how the world works. Not saying there aren’t people who just use others for their own benefit. Narcissists and the like. But generally friends, I mean real friends, love each other. Therefore the bond is that they genuinely care about each other’s happiness. 

 

26 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I do now know too many people who phone me and ask me to hang out with them, in fact this almost never happens so that says everything really.

Considering the people you know have very little in common with you (by your own description), and you have a sense of disdain towards them, this makes sense doesn’t it?

[ZA Dater]

11 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

No such thing as “better”. Just more or less compatible. Again, as many have pointed out, you’re never going to get the “I’m interested in you” signal from the types of women you find attractive. Not that some of them might consider it IF you show some confidence and make it clear you’re interested in them. The types of women that are going to show clear interest in you are the ones that are trying to get a guy (you in this case) out of their league. They’ll be much more blatant about it.

As I’ve said before, I wasn’t attracted to any of the women that messaged me first in OLD. The difference is I didn’t take this as any indication of my level of attractiveness.You seem to. Just because a woman swiped right on you doesn’t mean that’s your “league”. And conversely if none of the women you swiped right on were matching with you, you’d know you were shooting out of your league. But once in awhile you do get a match and that perfectly normal. You tend to spin this as negatively as possible, but trust me it’s pretty normal for an average looking guy. I’d say I’d get a match for every 100+ women I swiped right on. But I also knew I was swiping on women out of my league. Why? Because it’s as little effort as one can do. It’s literally just making a swiping motion on your phone. Did any of them match with me? No. But a few that were in my league did. And not many. But a few. And that’s fine. 

Sorry my better was in direct reference to physical looks. I find it very, very difficult to believe any of the people I found attractive would ever find me in the least bit attractive when I look at who they subsequently ended up dating. Which is ok. 

Nobody has ever show me any any blatant interest, well not in the last 18 years or so. 

Sure I agree but when none of the people I find attractive match with me that tells me I am just unattractive to them and would not be any more attractive if I were sitting in front of them at a coffee shop, again I accept this. Its totally pointless trying to change something I cannot change, it is just what it is. The only thing I can do is rely less on external factors to dictate how I feel. 

 

[ZA Dater]

13 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

It’s not how the world works. Not saying there aren’t people who just use others for their own benefit. Narcissists and the like. But generally friends, I mean real friends, love each other. Therefore the bond is that they genuinely care about each other’s happiness. 

 

Considering the people you know have very little in common with you (by your own description), and you have a sense of disdain towards them, this makes sense doesn’t it?

Oddly I find myself caring more about those in my life than they seem to care about me...telling I suppose.

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, elaine567 said:

An orbiter is hanging around waiting for a chance to turn friendship into dating/sleeping together.

Thanks. 

So then it's friendzone? Or an orbiter is in the friendzone hoping to get out?

Ok, the what is the distinction between friendzone and just friends?

All these situationships seem to blur after a while so it's hard to give good advice if it's unclear what's going on.

[dramafreezone]

On 6/11/2021 at 7:31 AM, ZA Dater said:

Oddly I find myself caring more about those in my life than they seem to care about me...telling I suppose.

That's only in the sense that you think showing them deference will result in reciprocal care towards you.

If it were true caring about others, then there would be no resentment or bitterness at all from you, you would be completely fulfilled because that'd just your nature to be caring to others without reward or expectation of anything coming back to you.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

That's only in the sense that you think showing them deference will result in reciprocal care towards you.

If it were true caring about others, then there would be no resentment or bitterness at all from you, you would be completely fulfilled because that'd just your nature to be caring to others without reward or expectation of anything coming back to you.

Ultimately one of the easier things I have done lately from a dating point of view is just remove any emotions I have felt toward the entire concept, that way I simply care a lot less and when I walk past that attractive brunette, I do not even bother looking, instead occupy my thoughts with something else, work is a good one for this. 

One piece advice you gave me has stuck with me, focus on being good at something , I might never be truly good at anything but maybe if I direct all my focus toward that I can just about get by with not thinking about dating at all. Ignore the things I cant do and focus on other things, not think about what I wont experience but think about things I could experience. 

How important it is really that someone finds me attractive, how important it is for me to date someone, actually not very and maybe I am just being greedy expecting to experience any of the nice things everyone else seems to get to experience, after all we are not entitled to be liked or found attractive. I need to sit down and think about what I really want, maybe this constant lack of success is the world telling me something, maybe some of us do the walk of life alone, maybe our value is elsewhere?

The only regret I have is I really liked that experience with A, I would not mind more of that but then again we all cant get what we want. I did my usual beach walk and looked around me more closely and the match up were typical, like with like and I looked at the families and again it was like with like. Unfortunately based on what everyone here says you can g about dating with the best of intentions and still accomplish nothing at all, much less actually date somebody you want to date.

Here is a thought "I dated people in my league, I tried to date out of my league" does this mean you actually wanted better than what you could get and settled for something you could get and if so how do you not see that as being "lesser". 

I cant really change how others see me but I can change how I see myself and the choice I am making is to feel OK being the person I am, I know I could offer someone a lot but if they are not interested then really so be, I am not going to beg for it.

[ZA Dater]

On 6/11/2021 at 5:37 PM, Wiseman2 said:

Thanks. 

So then it's friendzone? Or an orbiter is in the friendzone hoping to get out?

Ok, the what is the distinction between friendzone and just friends?

All these situationships seem to blur after a while so it's hard to give good advice if it's unclear what's going on.

Apparently its impossible to get out of the friendzone.

[MeadowFlower]

@ZA Dater STOP placing value on yours and women's level of attractiveness. Start valuing people for who they are and NOT for what they look like or how attracted you are to them. Just stop it! 

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Here is a thought "I dated people in my league, I tried to date out of my league" does this mean you actually wanted better than what you could get and settled for something you could get and if so how do you not see that as being "lesser"

Most people do not think like that.
There is a lot more to dating and falling in love than pure looks.
Looks pale into insignificance once you start getting to know someone warts and all.
Personality, temperament, how they handle conflict, how compatible they are sexually and lifestyle wise, how mentally stable they are... etc etc.
It all soon starts to become very important, far more important to daily living than how good they look in a pair of shorts...
Men who you perceive as settling, are not settling, they know the value of a good, honest and happy relationship and have chosen and avoided accordingly.

You are like the guy who sets out to buy a dog on looks alone, once he gets the dog home he realises that the dog is totally unsuitable for the life he leads. 
He is not happy, the dog is not happy. Total mismatch.

[basil67]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Here is a thought "I dated people in my league, I tried to date out of my league" does this mean you actually wanted better than what you could get and settled for something you could get and if so how do you not see that as being "lesser".

 I've never had a thought like this in my life and can't begin to get my head around it.   

Edited June 12, 2021 by basil67

[Weezy1973]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Here is a thought "I dated people in my league, I tried to date out of my league" does this mean you actually wanted better than what you could get and settled for something you could get and if so how do you not see that as being "lesser". 

This is a theme I see amongst people who grew up with dysfunctional parents. They believe that the only way to have a successful relationship is to be with someone “perfect”. And inevitably these people are not ones that are attracted to them. Because they didn’t grow up seeing a healthy, loving relationship they think dysfunction is normal and healthy relationships are extremely rare and only occur if you get exactly the qualities you’re looking for. But this view is dysfunctional in itself. 
 

Also “settling” is something that everybody does all the time whenever they make a choice. They’re settling to not get all the options they didn’t choose. You’re maybe not settling for a partner who doesn’t meet all your desires, but you are settling for a life of loneliness. And you’re clearly not happy with that, or else there wouldn’t be thousands of pages of your posts on this site. 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Weezy1973

[dramafreezone]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

One piece advice you gave me has stuck with me, focus on being good at something , I might never be truly good at anything but maybe if I direct all my focus toward that I can just about get by with not thinking about dating at all. Ignore the things I cant do and focus on other things, not think about what I wont experience but think about things I could experience. 

 

Well I'm glad something has stuck.  Yes I think finding your lane and maximizing your proficiency in that lane creates value, which creates more status in a certain realm, and in that sphere you can be the alpha male.  I firmly believe that because I've seen it for others, and I am living it myself.

If your hobby is hang-gliding, be the best dang hang-glider in your town, and that creates value.  If you play video games, be the best video game player, go to tournaments, dominate and you're the alpha male there.  Whenever you have high status in any sphere and there are women there, you will be seen as more attractive, I know this as well as I know the back of my hand.   I remember when online message boards became a thing 20 years ago and I was one of the most recognized names on an online message board for marching bands (since I was into marching band).  I got a couple of girlfriends just from my status there.  Status means a hell of a lot.

[ZA Dater]

Lets just say maybe I have proven to myself I am attractive to some I find attractive, even if they do not live in the country I live in. At the end of the day that is one of the things I was looking for, some sort of "well I am actually not unattractive". 

[SumGuy]

25 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Lets just say maybe I have proven to myself I am attractive to some I find attractive, even if they do not live in the country I live in. At the end of the day that is one of the things I was looking for, some sort of "well I am actually not unattractive". 

I think that goes to show you are hanging around the wrong people, or fishing in the wrong pool.  Basically the social circle is not your "tribe" as has been said before.