After TWO YEARS - he's married! *updated*

[Prudence V]

4 hours ago, LShalcy said:

someone who has dated a married man and is currently married to him to be acting as if I’m insane because we  care about each other and belittling the relationship, as unconventional as it is.

I don’t believe you’re insane. I do believe you were deceived - deliberately, consciously, sustainedly - and now feel “hooked” and dependent on him / the R (or at least, the R you thought you had) and so struggle to see a future for yourself outside of this situation. 
 

I don’t believe you’re delusional (yet - though you do seem to be arguing yourself toward that) but you are clearly very deeply in denial here. You are clutching not even at straws, but at the ghosts of straws, to construct a “relationship” out of very little evidence for anything beyond a fling. I’m not dissing flings - personally, I think they’re very healthy, as long as both parties are fully informed, consenting adults - but I think you’ve built it up to be rather more than that, because you’ve gotten attached, in he absence of friends and a strong support system; whereas he has a wife, a family, a network of friends and colleagues and anyone else he has in the life he doesn’t share with you - so he’s just not that invested. 
 

I’m all for “unconventional”, as you’d know if you read my posts on these boards. What I’m not for - in any R, whatever the label attached to it - is unequal Rs, or Rs which are abusive, or Rs where one person is currently experiencing or definitely headed for real emotional damage - and I’m concerned that that’s what’s on the cards for you in this R. 
 

I’m very happy to support OWs who are working to transition their As to FTRs, as you’d know from reading here. I’m happy to support APs who wish to sustain As longer-term as As, not seeking anything more than what they have currently. What I can’t do, however, is encourage someone to persist against all the evidence of a situation being toxic and bad for their mental health. That’s just not ethical, IMV. 
 

If you consider that “belittling”, je suis desolee, my intention is not to belittle. But I cannot in good conscious condone something I think will compound the manage you’ve already suffered in this arrangement as a result of his deception.

[elaine567]

4 hours ago, LShalcy said:

I did not come here to have people tell me that... he’s a sociopath, psychopath,

Well there is something wrong with him. 
What kind of a person hides the fact he is married with a child away from the woman he is supposedly dating and sleeping with, not for a few days or a week when they first met but for a WHOLE TWO YEARS...
That is a lot of lying involved both overtly and by omission. both to you and to his wife.
He also only managed to be married for a year before he was out there on  dating site looking for a woman on the side...
This affair did not arise from a chance meeting, this was not about falling for a friend or a co-worker, this was a deliberate ploy to find a gullible woman he could fool into being his OW. 

I know you are lonely and he is "it" and you are somewhat addicted to him, but you must see he is hardly a man any woman would choose to trust. 

[Prudence V]

5 hours ago, LShalcy said:

I did not come here to have people tell me that I’m delusional, he’s a sociopath, psychopath

I’m wary of providing psychological diagnoses - I believe that should be the preserve of trained professionals in a context where they consider all of the information in context - but I’m interested in how you would characterise someone who deliberately set out to deceive someone, and sustained that deception for two entire years, for the sole purpose of getting them to have sexual with him - and then expressed not a shred of remorse once found out? 
 

would you say such behaviour indicates someone who is 

1. loving;
2. committed;
3. trustworthy; or
4. psychopathic / sociopathic? 
    

Seriously, I’m interested in how you view this behaviour, and how you’d view it if a friend or a family member presented that situation to you and asked your opinion. Would you recommend they trust that person, or walk away? 

 

[Prudence V]

7 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

compound the manage

*damage

[Prudence V]

5 hours ago, LShalcy said:

I’m happy when I’m with him, and he’s happy when he’s with me and I just can’t give it up now. So I guess I’ll just let the fantasy play out a little longer.

You’ve expressed that you’re lonely, and that you have no friends you can discuss this with. Please read these boards, to learn more about the kind of A you are embarking on with him, and the trajectory that those kind of As follow. If you are going to pursue this, knowing what it is and what’s on offer, please at least inform yourself. Prepare yourself for the level of isolation, of loss of power and agency, of erosion of self-esteem and dignity, that women who have been in those kid of As describe. Please research this - there are many stories here - and then make your decision. If it’s still what you want at that point, fair enough. But choose knowingly. You’ve been deceived up to this point - don’t allow yourself to have your decisions made for you henceforth by someone who has shown himself not to be looking out for your best interests, but only his own *at your expense*. 

[BaileyB]

7 hours ago, Prudence V said:

And while others now think that you’re making a conscious decision to embrace the role of OW (and so feel they need to withdraw support), my view differs. I don’t think you are choosing to be the OW - at least, not from an informed choice position, or a position of strength. You are accepting it, submitting to it, settling for it - not choosing it.

I certainly agree with you that she is not making this decision from a position of strength. If anything, it’s the opposite. She has said many times that she does not want to be alone, that she can’t imagine her life without him, if not this man, “who” will she talk with all day everyday. She is choosing to cling to whatever is left here, because she does not believe that she has the ability to let go and stand on her own two feet. Not only does she feel like she can not do it, she does not want to do it. If anything, she is making this decision out of fear. 

I do think it’s difficult to say after 16 pages of discussion that she is not making an informed choice. If it is not an informed choice, it is only because she has chosen to suspend reality - which may well be a defence mechanism. 

As to the withdrawal of support, it’s difficult to watch someone is making a decision that will cause them pain and will be damaging to their emotional health and well being. It’s particularly difficult in this case knowing that this woman has two young children in her care. While remaining very concerned for her, at a certain point one must stop talking when the other person has stopped listening. At a certain point, you have said everything you can say. She has made her decision, and I respect that. I don’t think this will work out well for her, but I do wish her well. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by BaileyB

[Stupidkupid]

OP may not be delusuinal but she certainly is not being rational. And she ia taking a swipe at one of the people on here offering genuine reasoning, little judgement and advice from a place of experience. There is nothing you can do there.

 

[LShalcy]

6 hours ago, BaileyB said:

I certainly agree with you that she is not making this decision from a position of strength. If anything, it’s the opposite. She has said many times that she does not want to be alone, that she can’t imagine her life without him, if not this man, “who” will she talk with all day everyday. She is choosing to cling to whatever is left here, because she does not believe that she has the ability to let go and stand on her own two feet. Not only does she feel like she can not do it, she does not want to do it. If anything, she is making this decision out of fear. 

I agree with you and I wish you were my therapist or someone I could talk to about this 🥺 

Edited May 23, 2021 by LShalcy

[BaileyB]

2 hours ago, LShalcy said:

I agree with you and I wish you were my therapist or someone I could talk to about this 🥺 

If you don’t mind my asking, why have you not made the call to make an appointment with a therapist or a counsellor? 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

18 hours ago, Stupidkupid said:

OP may not be delusuinal but she certainly is not being rational. And she ia taking a swipe at one of the people on here offering genuine reasoning, little judgement and advice from a place of experience. There is nothing you can do there.

 

It's ok if it was me. I never read her response to my comment. And if it was me, and she took a swipe, well thank God something got through to her...albeit only triggering an emotional response which apparently she still won't act upon.  Some day the pieces will click together hopefully (esp for kids in tow).  Some day might be a long way away, but perhaps some day. 

[vla1120]

20 hours ago, LShalcy said:

I agree with you and I wish you were my therapist or someone I could talk to about this 🥺 

If you work at a school district, I assume you have access to the Employees Assistance Program. Get the phone number and call for an appointment. It costs nothing. This situation HAS adversely affected your job. This is exactly what the EAP is in place for, to help you cope with something that has derailed you in life. Get the number and make the phone call!

[Bittersweetie]

Lshalcy...I have said many times on this board that the posts that piss me off the most are the ones hitting a nerve I need to examine. And I originally came here as a MW who had an affair so I have not been coddled. I've read all 16 pages and feel you've gotten a lot of decent, practical advice from posters who care about seeing a stranger hurt...I hope you can see that too and move forward accordingly. My experience is different than yours but I can say that I much happier and stronger now living honestly and authentically than I ever was in the affair. Good luck to you.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Bittersweetie

[S2B]

He’s a total jerk who used you and lied to his wife to use you for his own satisfaction and greediness.

what’s appealing about that?

find an available man! This guy is a loser!

side note, tell his wife!

and you have NO idea who he really is! You only know what he tells you - which we know includes lies!

get rid of him - he will only waste MORE of your time.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

On 5/22/2021 at 1:28 PM, mark clemson said:

Speaking very generally, the characterization of affairs as abuse is IMO tenuous at best. Generally the affair is intended as a "bonus" for a person rather than there being an actual intent to harm the BS or AP. Without a doubt some affairs are indeed genuinely abusive, particularly "revenge" affairs where there is a plan to tell the spouse about it. But then again, many regular relationships are abusive too.

In your case IMO it's a bit of a judgement call/matter of opinion. He must have known he would have to either end things or tell you eventually. Either way you get hurt, so, I can see it interpreted as abusive in that sense.

You seem to be quite good at parsing what is presented to you. An important skill when dealing with internet forums (of any kind) as there can be all kinds of distortions, sometimes fairly subtle ones. So, kudos for that.

The blind spot, however (and I apologize for belaboring the point) seems to be that you are apparently willing/leaning toward accepting a "boyfriend" who deliberately lied to you about his marital status from the outset and for 2 years. Honestly I'm having a hard time processing that. Perhaps you are comfortable with the EMR, but are you comfortable with the dishonesty towards you?

You also seem to be falling into the trap of hoping he will "pick you". This is, simply put, not very likely.

Here is what you need to be focusing your ability for critical analysis on:

 

ABUSE

I consider the behavior of extracting benefits from another, with little to no regard for the other person's well-being, especially to the extent that said benefits actually cause this other person distress or harm, to be abuse.

It seems many societies would agree with such a definition on a broad scale as such is echoed in their justice systems: provide redress for intentional or even negligent harm to another. That is why we have extensive tort practice (and criminal law too!) in the justice system. Interesting that tort laws also carry punitive damages in addition to actual damages--a sign of society's great disdain perhaps? I digress.

The concept of justice, and how it is applied in society, is founded in societal values.

Enrichment comes in all forms: financial, pleasure (incl sex), ego boosts and so on.  When one acts to enrich themselves at the expense of another, especially without that other's knowledge or consent, it is abuse. When other expresses pain caused by those actions of perpetrator, and perpetrator continues the harmful behavior, it is abuse. When perpetrator uses language to dupe and distort 'other,' denying other's sense of reality/agency/needs/sense of right and wrong, it is abuse (eg gaslighting).

So, in the instant case, OP proceeded along a certain course under false pretense set forth by MM. That violated her. By withholding truth, MM took away OP's agency to choose the situation she entered into. MM extracted benefits from OP under a false pretense. That is actually a fraud.

Upon OP learning the truth, MM continues to extract/usurp by denying acknowledgement/validation of how he violated OP's agency or ability to make informed decisions about her romantic involvement, and further by failing to acknowledge how she feels about that violation or how it affects her. As far as he is concerned, as long as OP keeps 'putting out' the benefits, sex/attention/adulation, everything is hunky dory in his world...the rest be damned, including OP's desires, rights, feelings, needs, plans, preferences, etc.  Yeah, that's abuse! (Argument could be made now that OP is signing up for it now that she is aware but continues to show up to take it.)

Certainly, some people have an aversion to the word "abuse" probably because they've heard people misapply it in over-dramatic contexts; however, if it fits the dictionary's (or psychological or legal or...) definition, then it is what its name implies.  Let's call a spade a spade. 😉

[mark clemson]

7 hours ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

ABUSE

Certainly everyone's entitled to their opinion HMOAB. There's also no doubt in my mind that some affairs are abusive, just as some relationships are.

One issue is that abuse has two main meanings - a "misuse" meaning and a "cruelty" meaning. People may talk about abuse in affairs with the "lighter" misuse meaning, but generally when talking about relationships, abuse implies the "cruelty" meaning. So there can be a bit of a shell game going on (sometimes not deliberately) WTR to what is actually meant.

I have less of an issue with the misuse sense, as that is very much a judgement call.

If you want to talk about affairs generally as abusive (in the stronger "cruelty" sense) then you have to look at affairs generally and whether they involve "cruelty".

If cruelty is "callous indifference to or pleasure in causing pain and suffering" then I think they don't, to a reasonable person. A person who wants to be cruel to e.g. a partner/BS can commit infidelity in front of them to be cruel. They are not showing indifference to pain and suffering if they are hiding the EMR. On the AP side, again, one doesn't start a relationship to be cruel to another person. One starts a relationship (generally) because one likes them or is attracted to them. Some relationships may be cruel/abusive, but that is not inherent to a consensual relationship, and that applies to affairs as well.

There is also the matter of intent. While it may not be specifically in the definition of abuse, plenty of people suffer due to others' actions in the world. A doctor giving a kid a shot, a car accident, divorce, losing one's job, etc, etc. If we take out the intent to cause distress, then ALL of these things can conveniently be labelled "abuse". 

You might argue that deception occurs and that somehow makes it "abusive", but that frequently occurs in a divorce or job loss situation as well. Some of these examples also apply to the legal concepts you seem to mentioning (e.g. "enriching" a company/shareholders by eliminating outdated jobs). Not particularly fun, but again, not "abuse".

So I think that, reasonably, "abuse" in the strong sense simply doesn't apply to affairs generally. Certainly not without a lot of stretching or citing specific circumstances, and even then it's typically a judgement call. And, simply put, there are easier ways to be cruel if that is the intent.

That's my take. I think an extended discussion is outside the purview of this thread and would require its own.

Edited May 25, 2021 by mark clemson

[mark clemson]

BTW -

8 hours ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

 That is actually a fraud.

I agree with the characterization of "fraud" (in a sense of "emotional fraud") in OP's specific case. I also (as stated in prior posts above) feel the "abuse" label is essentially a judgement call in her specific case.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

@mark clemson I'm not having a go at you. Rather I consider this academic debate.

I hope this discussion benefits others (OP included) and provokes thought on this topic. 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

@mark clemson Just started reading the details of your post. I surmise misuse and cruelty are two sides of the same coin. I see that you touch on their relationship to intent. 

I'm guessing you define cruelty in the above context as someone acting with malice rather than negligence. Both are bad, both harm, both could be considered abuse if perpetrator failed to exercise a duty of care whether or not perpetrator knew he/she owed this duty or understood the harm they inflict(ed).

It's just that society generally considers a perpetrator with knowledge more culpable than one without knowledge. Still, without knowledge is not a free pass to inflict harm.

In OP's case, she does not even recognize the damage because she's suppressing the truth from herself. Truth is too painful for her to face. An MM (or anyone in regular relationship) may inflict harm without complete understanding of what they do. Once they are aware, do they continue or do they exhibit sincere remorse? These are the standards by which society will judge. 

Those who act with harm and knowledge, as evident in their behavior, from inception are most despised by society. Such is the type of MM on this thread. The polar disparity between MM's lack of empathy for OP plus OP's utter denial of truths about MM's behavior (easily observed by posters here) is a strong trigger to many, myself included.

I will go so far add to say it probably brings out a primitive instinct to protect the more vulnerable in the tribe. 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

A person who wants to be cruel to e.g. a partner/BS can commit infidelity in front of them to be cruel. They are not showing indifference to pain and suffering if they are hiding the EMR. On the AP side, again, one doesn't start a relationship to be cruel to another person. One starts a relationship (generally) because one likes them or is attracted to them. Some relationships may be cruel/abusive, but that is not inherent to a consensual relationship, and that applies to affairs as well.

I believe a great many BS's here would disagree with your assessment that they felt it was less cruel for their cheating spouses to hide the affair rather than flaunting it. I've never read a BS comment along the lines of, "I found out my spouse cheated on me, but at least s/he was considerate enough to do it behind my back."  No, I don't think that will be a popular perspective.

You are arguing the ol' "what you don't know can't hurt you," except in reality it can.  If someone does not know another is stealing from them, does it make the stealing ok? Does it mean the victim suffered no loss because they were unaware? Of course not.

To drive the point home in relationship context, I'll use the topic of clinically diagnosed narcissism as an example:

In simplified terms, psychology acknowledges:

1) overt narcissism, and

2) covert narcissism.

Do you think only overt narcissists do damage? No, covert narcissists do tons of damage. Ask me how I know. Possibly coverts inflict worse damage (because much of it goes unrecognized by both victim and others)--that's a question for the clinician. Coverts are expert at making their targets second guess themselves while appearing to everyone else to be admirable, generous, kind..it's a carefully crafted facade. They are no less dangerous than the overt varierty.

This too is where OP is stuck.  She trusts and believes the MM more than she trusts herself. I'm gonna guess it's from some former subconscious conditioning of which she is currently unaware. If she uncovers its source within herself, she will finally fix her picker. 

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

I believe a great many BS's here would disagree with your assessment

If someone does not know another is stealing from them, does it make the stealing ok?

That would not surprise me. I would also note some of them seem to be on a "crusade" and this gives them incentive to label cheating as "abuse" as this is an emotionally charged and highly negative term that bring to mind, e.g. battered women and the like.

When someone steals from someone else and they don't know it, what they have done is stealing, not abuse. We already have words for cheating - cheating and infidelity.

I think it's important to use words with their senses intact. To label things "abuse" that aren't both mislabels the person and distorts the term.

I could, using similar logic, label people (including BS's) who plan to divorce their spouse without letting them know "abusers" and call them out as such on forum posts. One could suggest that spouses, every time they borrow the car or use their spouses' credit card without permission or notifying them are "abusive".

You might complain that I was both unfairly labeling them (speaking generally) and distorting and to a certain extent trivializing the term "abuse". And you'd be right. And that's exactly what you're doing as well when you start labeling cheating as "abuse".

I can see this is turning into a (rational) debate, which is fine. However, I'm not overly interested in spending too much time writing posts destined to be deleted by moderation, so please keep that in mind WRT to any of my further replies.

Edited May 25, 2021 by mark clemson

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Mark, You have a strong aversion to the word abuse. It seems the word triggers you. 😜

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

could, using similar logic, label people (including BS's) who plan to divorce their spouse without letting them know "abusers" and call them out as such on forum posts. One could suggest that spouses, every time they borrow the car or use their spouses' credit card without permission or notifying them are "abusive".

^^^ This does not meet the definition of abuse that I set out in my post beginning "ABUSE..." I appreciate your thoughts on it though. 

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

can see this is turning into a (rational) debate, which is fine. However, I'm not overly interested in spending too much time writing posts destined to be deleted by moderation, so please keep that in mind WRT to any of my further replies.

I don't think this exchange is destined for deletion as it is relevant and informative and hopefully helpful for people trying to make sense of their own situations as they read through various threads, none the least of which is OP herself. I sort of hope that if she can see this information in a depersonalized way that it might help things begin to click in her own situation. If you're concerned about the amount of time you're spending on this discussion, it's certainly within your ability to disengage from it further, right?

There's also the hope that even if OP doesn't want to benefit from this now, she might read it months from now as her situation progresses. You know how people often come back after time passes and their perspectives change. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by HadMeOverABarrel

[HadMeOverABarrel]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

might complain that I was both unfairly labeling them (speaking generally) and distorting and to a certain extent trivializing the term "abuse". And you'd be right. And that's exactly what you're doing as well when you start labeling cheating as "abuse".

Ugh, I meant to include this in my post above.

I never made the statement that all cheating is abuse. It's not the cheating that is the abuse per se. It's the behaviors around it that can lead to abuse--see my post beginning "ABUSE" for details on that.

Anywho, thanks for engaging me on this debate. I'm sure some will agree with you while disagreeing with me. That's cool. As you said, everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Edited May 25, 2021 by HadMeOverABarrel
Grammer correction

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

I don't think this exchange is destined for deletion as it is relevant and informative and hopefully helpful for people trying to make sense of their own situations as they read through various threads, none the least of which is OP herself.

Fair enough and that would be nice. There's been a tendency for T/J style discussions to be deleted recently, but I agree this one could be relevant to OP so perhaps will not be.

 

Quote

^^^ This does not meet the definition of abuse that I set out in my post beginning "ABUSE..."

Perhaps not, but I'm taking the term by what I understand to be the two definitions in common use, so that's how I've proceeded. C'est la vie. I agree the discussion was worthwhile regardless.

[BaileyB]

Hope you are doing ok this week...

[LShalcy]

14 hours ago, BaileyB said:

Hope you are doing ok this week...

Hi, thank you for asking, yes, I’m doing ok. Instead of focusing on his deception (not telling me he was married) though, I am more focused on torturing myself thinking about the time he is spending with his wife. For example, for some weird reason,I’m thinking back to a snow day earlier this year when he couldn’t go to work & just thinking that he spent that whole romantic night with her (and every night), and it’s driving me crazy.

 

I have been pouring over these message boards (this one & infidelity) and finding a lot of parallels between my story and some that I have been reading. It’s comforting to know I’m not the only person who is going through this or who has went through this. 

 I am meeting him tomorrow, we have already planned to spend the night together and talk and who knows what else (we all know what else). He has been texting like normal and I’ve been texting with him as normal (all day, morning, afternoon & night) but I was upset one night and told him I just couldn’t talk to him and he became upset and sent a bunch of texts in a row asking what was wrong and sending a bunch of different pictures etc. yes, I  have to admit that I’ve sent him more pictures this week (ones I shouldn’t be sending) and he’s done the same (you can imagine the ones he is sending of himself - they’re not all of his face). From the texts we are both eager to see each other after all this time and he’s told me as much. He’s been asking about my kids as usual and telling me about his daughter, about his day, just like before, like he doesn’t have a wife.
 

I know I’m probably making a mistake seeing him tomorrow but I can’t help it and I can’t back out now. (And unfortunately, I’m looking forward to it 😒).

 

I told him we also need to talk;  he says he understands so I guess we will see what happens...

Edited May 27, 2021 by LShalcy