Am I a cheating scumbag that does not deserve my wife, or have I just experienced 'normal' amounts of close calls that are common when in a long-term relationship?

[Allupinnit]

Honestly it sounds like you need to grow up more than anything.  Those childish antics are something someone in jr high does, not a grown career-man with a wife and baby.  Pressing your boner into a woman's back??  Come on, man - that's just gross and the others are right, it's a good thing you didn't get a smack or worse.

I live in a major East Coast city and the culture here is the same, get trashed with your colleagues after work and call it HH.  It honestly never did anything for me aside from a rotten hangover on a work day and saying questionable things around my coworkers that I shouldn't have.  Now I enjoy coming home, getting in a workout, eating a nice dinner and watching a show w my H.  Personally I don't like the drinking culture surrounding the workplace.  Just because it's incredibly common in our culture doesn't mean it's good nor healthy.  I've seen it ruin lives, marriages and careers.

[connor_1991]

12 minutes ago, Timshel said:

Yeah, you are a cheater in my book. There isn't any way that a person I am in a committed relationship with; a fiance or a husband would be rubbing/grinding getting a woody and telling that person he is down to f*ck would be okey dokey with me. Not my standards. It seems that it isn't yours either, though that is what you did.

All of that was a passive aggressive way to not get married. You are married now and the reason you are bringing it up is because you still want out?

Thanks for your reply. Is this something that would lead to a divorce in your book? I certainly don't want out - it would tear me to pieces. But, I think I deserve to feel like s*** for my past actions and lose my family.

[d0nnivain]

Just now, connor_1991 said:

Thanks for your reply. Is this something that would lead to a divorce in your book? I certainly don't want out - it would tear me to pieces. But, I think I deserve to feel like s*** for my past actions and lose my family.

You really need to seek professional mental help to address this self destructive tendency.  

Even if @Timeshel would divorce you over this, your WIFE has already said she forgives you & has put it behind her.  YOUR WIFE is the one who was aggrieved here.  If she has forgiven you this is over.   Your need to continuously beat yourself up when your wife is not is problematic.  Get that addressed or she will divorce you for not letting go & your OCD tendencies.  At this point your current behavior is the problem, not the stupid things you did 3+ years ago.  

[connor_1991]

15 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

Honestly it sounds like you need to grow up more than anything.  Those childish antics are something someone in jr high does, not a grown career-man with a wife and baby.  Pressing your boner into a woman's back??  Come on, man - that's just gross and the others are right, it's a good thing you didn't get a smack or worse.

I live in a major East Coast city and the culture here is the same, get trashed with your colleagues after work and call it HH.  It honestly never did anything for me aside from a rotten hangover on a work day and saying questionable things around my coworkers that I shouldn't have.  Now I enjoy coming home, getting in a workout, eating a nice dinner and watching a show w my H.  Personally I don't like the drinking culture surrounding the workplace.  Just because it's incredibly common in our culture doesn't mean it's good nor healthy.  I've seen it ruin lives, marriages and careers.

Yeah I know its really childish behaviour - I was very immature. That particular incident with the boner happened when I was 23 and before I was engaged (not that it gives me any excuse!). I asked the girl about the incident and she says she doesn't remember it (even though I know she was pushing back against me in reaction to it).

I now enjoy the same healthy lifestyle - exercise, good food and time with my family. That youthful city lifestyle is so easy to get sucked into - my office was like a frat party all the time!

[Timshel]

14 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

You really need to seek professional mental help to address this self destructive tendency.  

Even if @Timeshel would divorce you over this, your WIFE has already said she forgives you & has put it behind her.  YOUR WIFE is the one who was aggrieved here.  If she has forgiven you this is over.   Your need to continuously beat yourself up when your wife is not is problematic.  Get that addressed or she will divorce you for not letting go & your OCD tendencies.  At this point your current behavior is the problem, not the stupid things you did 3+ years ago.  

 

18 minutes ago, connor_1991 said:

Thanks for your reply. Is this something that would lead to a divorce in your book? I certainly don't want out - it would tear me to pieces. But, I think I deserve to feel like s*** for my past actions and lose my family.

You only need to get out if you think you do...do you?

If you have been honest and your wife has forgiven you then why here? There is something irking you. Is it that you are not settled or is it that you did not tell the truth and your wife has forgiven you under false pretense. Which is it?

[connor_1991]

17 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

You really need to seek professional mental help to address this self destructive tendency.  

Even if @Timeshel would divorce you over this, your WIFE has already said she forgives you & has put it behind her.  YOUR WIFE is the one who was aggrieved here.  If she has forgiven you this is over.   Your need to continuously beat yourself up when your wife is not is problematic.  Get that addressed or she will divorce you for not letting go & your OCD tendencies.  At this point your current behavior is the problem, not the stupid things you did 3+ years ago.  

I really am getting help! I know my attitude is wrong. I am a lucky guy to have her

[elaine567]

7 minutes ago, connor_1991 said:

I really am getting help

i.e. in getting help from a psychologist/psychiatrist with a proper mental health assessment not just a "therapist"?

[mark clemson]

 

https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/scrupulosity-moral-ocd#6

[Timshel]

On 5/25/2021 at 1:25 PM, connor_1991 said:

To clarify, I have never kissed or had sexual relations with another person but whilst drunk I have done some of the following across our 13 year relationship - started when I was 17, and she was 16:

 

On 5/25/2021 at 3:21 PM, connor_1991 said:

Honestly the pain and guilt I feel inside is unbearable, but I know I deserve it for my behaviour, I am currently working on my OCD and anxiety that stems from this (via cognitive behaviour therapy) in order to heal and stop myself dragging my wife and son into this hole I find myself in.

 

8 hours ago, connor_1991 said:

I married her as I thought I loved her, despite my actions described above showing otherwise. I really did love spending the weekends with her and holidays away with her, but I also did not want to miss out on the social life that other people around me got to experience (lads trip away, work social events, festivals, parties etc..). I know that is incredibly selfish of me, but I just got addicted to going out with friends and having a laugh (she was there for these evenings maybe 50% of the time).

I also think I deemed this sort of behaviour and spending time apart to be acceptable as my parents often spent time apart doing their own thing (they have been faithful to each other) and said it helped make their marriage stronger. 

You are in therapy already which is good. You were very young when you met your wife and hold yourself to a very high standard.

To answer your question, yes, I would divorce you for these behaviors. I would think to let you go.

I don't know that there is anything wrong...only that as much as you love your family, you want to be free. Be honest. Love is honest.

[connor_1991]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

i.e. in getting help from a psychologist/psychiatrist with a proper mental health assessment not just a "therapist"?

Well I'm starting with therapy, as this is what I've been recommended by mental health charities

[connor_1991]

2 hours ago, Timshel said:

 

You only need to get out if you think you do...do you?

If you have been honest and your wife has forgiven you then why here? There is something irking you. Is it that you are not settled or is it that you did not tell the truth and your wife has forgiven you under false pretense. Which is it?

What is irking me is that I could not how stupid and inconsiderate my behaviour was before I came to this realisation. I am angry at myself! I wanted to ask people opinions on here as I suspected she only forgave me so that our son had a father in the household and she had support - therefore I wanted to see if what I had done was unforgiveable by most peoples standards. I almost find it too good to believe that she would still love me. I am fully settled and want nothing more in life - I genuinely have never loved anybody else. I told her about all the incidents in graphic detail.

[elaine567]

36 minutes ago, connor_1991 said:

Well I'm starting with therapy, as this is what I've been recommended by mental health charities

If I were you i would go to doctor and  follow the medical route rather than the therapy route.
I am worried you may have an underlying mental illness causing this problem.

[salparadise]

42 minutes ago, connor_1991 said:

I told her about all the incidents in graphic detail.

Man, you need to be careful about that too. You might think confession is a righteous thing, but in doing so you are shifting that burden to someone who doesn’t deserve to have to carry it. Doing this obsessively could have negative consequences for everyone. 
 

I'm perplexed as to why this overactive superego of yours doesn’t result in inhibitions with respect to acting out. For most people these things are integrated, but for you they seem separate and disconnected. And the degree of guilt and shame seem out of proportion (though some may disagree).
 

Were you shamed, invalidated, and told you weren’t worthy, as a child? Is this the only time you’ve had such negative feelings about yourself... or are there other areas of your life about which you have similar feelings, or perhaps had in the past?
 

What would it take for you to forgive yourself and think of yourself as a good and moral person? Are there ever times when you’re proud to be the person you are?

Edited May 26, 2021 by salparadise

[BaileyB]

I really struggle to understand why you think you have the right to do these things? Do you think women will find this attractive or flattering? To me, it’s disturbing that a man would behave in this way. It does sound like immature middle school, or frat boy behavior. Perhaps because you’ve never experienced a consequence fro this behavior you believe that it is acceptable? But, it’s not. Behave like this in the workplace and you would be fired. 

[BaileyB]

10 minutes ago, salparadise said:

And the degree of guilt and shame seem out of proportion

Agree. It’s all or nothing thinking... either he believes himself to be a cheating scumbag who doesn’t deserve his wife or this is a close call - entirely normal and experienced by all other married men. 

A counsellor who is trained in cognitive behavioural therapy would help you to deal with these thoughts and feelings. They could also help you to develop the ability to consider the situation from the woman’s perspective and look forward to be able to predict the consequences of your behavior. 

[d0nnivain]

55 minutes ago, connor_1991 said:

. I am angry at myself! I wanted to ask people opinions on here as I suspected she only forgave me so that our son had a father in the household and she had support - therefore I wanted to see if what I had done was unforgiveable by most peoples standards. I almost find it too good to believe that she would still love me. I am fully settled and want nothing more in life - I genuinely have never loved anybody else. I told her about all the incidents in graphic detail.

Opinions will be split if you take an opinion poll.  Again while I think what you did was wrong, it was done before you were married so  it's not something I would divorce you over.  Other people have different opinions but none of that matters.  

You told your wife.  She forgave you & moved on.  What are you gonna do, go back & tell her that she's a fool because a bunch of random people on the internet would have made a different decision?   Marriage is for better or worse.  This was definitely worse but she's sticking by you.  I really don't understand why you are beating this dead horse.  Your wife is passed this.  Get over yourself.  thank your lucky stars she forgave you & spend the rest of your life showing her by your actions, now on the straight & narrow, that she made the right choice.  

[BaileyB]

4 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

Get over yourself.  thank your lucky stars she forgave you & spend the rest of your life showing her by your actions that she made the right choice.  

Agree. Very good advice Donnivain. If you need to get yourself a counsellor to come to terms with this OP, I would encourage you to do so. What a shame it would be if you lost your marriage because you couldn’t change your ways and then let this go...

Edited May 26, 2021 by BaileyB

[Timshel]

58 minutes ago, connor_1991 said:

What is irking me is that I could not how stupid and inconsiderate my behaviour was before I came to this realisation. I am angry at myself! I wanted to ask people opinions on here as I suspected she only forgave me so that our son had a father in the household and she had support - therefore I wanted to see if what I had done was unforgiveable by most peoples standards. I almost find it too good to believe that she would still love me. I am fully settled and want nothing more in life - I genuinely have never loved anybody else. I told her about all the incidents in graphic detail.

Forgiveness is not at issue, stand down and stop the faux concern.

You want to have sex with different women than your wife.

It seems the reason you are very distraught is because you want to keep your wife while you play.  conner_1991. There isn't a way that you will be able to remain married with integrity and still have boners with random women.

This is not about your wife being too good for you, this is about you.

Again, the reason you are here is the dissonance between what you want and what is expected of you.

 

[connor_1991]

15 hours ago, salparadise said:

I'm perplexed as to why this overactive superego of yours doesn’t result in inhibitions with respect to acting out. For most people these things are integrated, but for you they seem separate and disconnected. And the degree of guilt and shame seem out of proportion (though some may disagree).
 

Were you shamed, invalidated, and told you weren’t worthy, as a child? Is this the only time you’ve had such negative feelings about yourself... or are there other areas of your life about which you have similar feelings, or perhaps had in the past?
 

What would it take for you to forgive yourself and think of yourself as a good and moral person? Are there ever times when you’re proud to be the person you are?

Agree - I know it was wrong and really did try to uphold high moral standards throughout my life, but alcohol caused my moral compass to blur and led to these incidents. 

I always felt like I have had anxiety and I think I used alcohol to reduce that in the past. I have never really felt shame or a feeling of being invalidated before, and this has all come at once now. Although my behaviour around women is the key issue I am highlighting on here, I also have regrets over how I treated people at school - racial comments, picking on people etc... that I deeply regret now that I am an adult. I seem to apply the knowledge and lessons of the person I am now on how I look back at the old me (even though I know you need to make the mistakes a lot of the time when you are young in order to learn).

The thing I was always proud of was my relationship with my partner (now wife) and how hard I worked to get to where I was in my career, but I now just look at the negatives of those achievements - (e.g. my behaviour away from my wife tarnished our strong bond as she used to see me as a perfect partner; and how hard/long I worked to climb the career ladder cost me lots of precious time to spend at home for several years). I mean honestly how many people do you know can claim to have only ever been intimate (i.e. kissed and slept with) with only one person and maintained a relationship that started at school and is still going 13.5 years later - this I know is extremely rare and I was so proud of it until I thought I ruined everything and began to look inwards. 

I think a few years of proving to myself that I can be a supporting partner and good father should wash away any guilt I have, but it won't be a quick fix as I believe my sentence/punishment should fit the crime. If people are wondering why I am so hard on myself, it is because of the world I now see through media - people are calling for extreme punishment for mistakes and behaviours, no matter how long ago it was, and even though I know everybody makes mistakes, the way people talk through social media about how behaviour should be punished makes me feel like I am now (a predator, an unfaithful & lying partner, a bully) - because even if a lot of these things did happen a long time ago and you are trying to change, the current world will not allow it and feels like I won't be able to settle knowing that if I was a celebrity and conducted my behaviour in this way, I would  be chastised by the public/press, serve jail time, and lose my career. 

 I used to feel confident that I am good moral person, but the way I read things now, is that no act is forgivable and should be met with stern action. Do we now live in a society where you are not allowed to grow from your mistakes? Is it a one strike and out rule? I feel like it is, and I agree with it, but I just don't know I live with myself going forwards.

[connor_1991]

15 hours ago, BaileyB said:

I really struggle to understand why you think you have the right to do these things? Do you think women will find this attractive or flattering? To me, it’s disturbing that a man would behave in this way. It does sound like immature middle school, or frat boy behavior. Perhaps because you’ve never experienced a consequence fro this behavior you believe that it is acceptable? But, it’s not. Behave like this in the workplace and you would be fired. 

I don't think I had the right - I think I was influenced by how the culture was around me and how people behaved towards me too. I mean I know from validation that these women weren't made unconformable by my actions, but you are right in saying that they probably did not find it flattering either. You are right - maybe I feel like this because I deserve to have some sort of punishment/consequence for my actions. Most of this did actually happen in the workplace, or with work colleagues - the whole office was like this which is scary to think about now. 

[connor_1991]

15 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

Opinions will be split if you take an opinion poll.  Again while I think what you did was wrong, it was done before you were married so  it's not something I would divorce you over.  Other people have different opinions but none of that matters.  

You told your wife.  She forgave you & moved on.  What are you gonna do, go back & tell her that she's a fool because a bunch of random people on the internet would have made a different decision?   Marriage is for better or worse.  This was definitely worse but she's sticking by you.  I really don't understand why you are beating this dead horse.  Your wife is passed this.  Get over yourself.  thank your lucky stars she forgave you & spend the rest of your life showing her by your actions, now on the straight & narrow, that she made the right choice.  

My next steps involves become the best version of me, and maybe the first step on this path is to address this guilt that this LoveShack forum is helping me with. i don't want to keep bringing up my feelings with her, as it will drag her down as people have pointed out on this topic already.

[connor_1991]

15 hours ago, Timshel said:

Forgiveness is not at issue, stand down and stop the faux concern.

You want to have sex with different women than your wife.

It seems the reason you are very distraught is because you want to keep your wife while you play.  conner_1991. There isn't a way that you will be able to remain married with integrity and still have boners with random women.

This is not about your wife being too good for you, this is about you.

Again, the reason you are here is the dissonance between what you want and what is expected of you.

 

Forgiveness certainly is an issue - I can think of many times when the guilt and negative feelings of the person who committed the act is much worse compared to the person on the receiving end (e.g. my wife)

Of course at some points I have thought about the idea of having sex with other people -  I literally think every single person does that no? But, wanting or thinking of something is very different to actually acting it out. If I shot a person on a video game, would you say I am therefore a murderer? I know my incidents did initiate sexual behaviours, but I stopped them when I had a moment to think about my actions, and never pursued them later on. I have had multiple moments where I could have taken advantage of a situation to lead to more, and I never have done it - does this show I actually intended to carry out the act of having sex with other people, or does it show I was able to think of my partner even when my judgement was severely impaired (my own fault of course that I was drunk)?

I am indeed distraught because I feel exactly like you say "you are very distraught is because you want to keep your wife while you play" - I wanted a partner and yet I wanted to have have fun with my friends while I was young. I regret it and wish I just stayed at home more often. 

In terms of your last line, I think I wanted to know I was attractive to other people without actually breaking the bond with my wife. Almost flirting with the idea, but never actually wanting it. Doesn't sound good, but I think it is the truth. I know exactly what is expected of me, hence why I feel like this.

[Stupidkupid]

Just adding my agreement to lots of the above. I would divorce you, but that's just me. We are all different.

But I can almost guarantee that these women felt uncomfortable or afraid of your behaviour, even if they never said anything. It's gross, it *is* predatory and even if I didn't consider it cheating, I would find your behaviour towards other women borderline criminal and lose all respect for you.

Getting the help you need is a good step but this wouldn't be enough for me as your lack of respect for me and those women would be enough. 

And also, it's only one yes from a woman not totally creeped out by you before you're having sex with someone that isn't me. 

I feel really bad for the women you did this to, and your wife but I do wish you luck in sorting yourself out

[Trail Blazer]

11 minutes ago, Stupidkupid said:

Just adding my agreement to lots of the above. I would divorce you, but that's just me. We are all different.

But I can almost guarantee that these women felt uncomfortable or afraid of your behaviour, even if they never said anything. It's gross, it *is* predatory and even if I didn't consider it cheating, I would find your behaviour towards other women borderline criminal and lose all respect for you.

Getting the help you need is a good step but this wouldn't be enough for me as your lack of respect for me and those women would be enough. 

And also, it's only one yes from a woman not totally creeped out by you before you're having sex with someone that isn't me. 

I feel really bad for the women you did this to, and your wife but I do wish you luck in sorting yourself out

It takes two to tango.  Did OP force his finger in the mouth of the friend who sucked it?  Did the other woman not push back against his boner when she felt it?

The OP has acted highly inappropriately as a man who was either in a relationship, engaged or married to the one woman.  However, at no point in OP's postings has he stated that any of these women felt uncomfortable.

OP is seeking insight into whether the consensus believes he's a cheater.  You're trying to create issues that don't exist by taking examples he's described and twisting them.

 

 

[connor_1991]

4 minutes ago, Stupidkupid said:

Just adding my agreement to lots of the above. I would divorce you, but that's just me. We are all different.

But I can almost guarantee that these women felt uncomfortable or afraid of your behaviour, even if they never said anything. It's gross, it *is* predatory and even if I didn't consider it cheating, I would find your behaviour towards other women borderline criminal and lose all respect for you.

Getting the help you need is a good step but this wouldn't be enough for me as your lack of respect for me and those women would be enough. 

And also, it's only one yes from a woman not totally creeped out by you before you're having sex with someone that isn't me. 

I feel really bad for the women you did this to, and your wife but I do wish you luck in sorting yourself out

Sure, as I stated above I have reached out to all those that I was worried I had behaved inappropriately towards, and all basically laughed at the suggestion and just said along the lines of "it was a fun night, don't be silly, we are friends". Trust me - with my OCD I was almost perusing for the worst possible answer (as a means of validating my feelings of deserving to be cast out), and so I literally asked everyone (one of whom I had not spoken to in many many years), and reminded them of the details so that they could fully remember the moments in case they had forgotten (most of them forgotten had until I reminded them).

So if me seeking help is not enough, what else would you have me do as a way of levelling things, as you say my current actions to fix things are not enough?

For reference, the incident I was most worried about was one where I grabbed the bum of a girl whilst I was basically black out drunk - I had only met her that day so could basically claim she was a stranger - luckily I had her Instagram so could reach out and say sorry. Not that I need to provide you with this evidence, but hopefully it eases your worry about feeling bad for these women as you say. All other incidents are with friends that I am still in close contact with and I told you they were fine with it (even if I am clearly not).

FOR CONTEXT - I SAID I FELT BAD FOR HER SLIPPING OVER AS I BOUGHT HER LOTS OF DRINKS AND I FELT BAD FOR PINCHING HER BUM WHILST WE WERE DANCING:

"Connor - hello!! I am SO sorry for the late reply to your very thoughtful email. It of course took me majorly by surprise to hear from you, and I wanted to give my reply some thought, and then the last few days totally got away from me. I am actually getting married next month (a redo from last year's postponement due to COVID) and this past weekend was our wedding shower. So, anyway, I am sorry and I hope you didn't think I wouldn't reply. 

It's so nice to hear from you! But I have to admit your worry over that night made me so sad. I hate to think you've been harboring upsetness or guilt over any wrongdoing that night. Because from where I sit, you did nothing wrong at all. 

You are right that it was a fun night!! Really fun. One of the best of my trip. I also did a lot of drinking back then... much more than I should have, and these days I am also making much better decisions. But what I really wanted to say in this email is that everyone makes their own choices in life. I chose to hang out with you guys that night, and I chose to drink as much as I did. You are not responsible for that or for me slipping and falling. That was just an unfortunate accident because it rained and was wet out, and because I am just that clumsy. (I really am. I injure myself quite a lot, actually, always getting bumps and bruises.) 

And if you grabbed my bum, I didn't even notice, so please don't worry about that. I do appreciate your apology, though, because I do remember times that other guys have actually made me feel uncomfortable (and worse), and I can let you know not one of them has ever apologized to me. So that should make you feel good about what kind of person you are -- a good one, because you have apologized, and didn't even do anything wrong. Honestly, as a woman, I have many memories of being treated badly by guys, but meeting you and your friends on that trip is not one of them. I told everyone when I got back to the states about how I met these really nice dudes from England and they were so fun and so nice to me after I stupidly fell on my face.  

So no, you didn't cause any harm at all! And it was great meeting you all and hanging out that night. I did finish my trip and, despite the black eye, it was a total blast. I went off to Paris and Munich and ended my trip in Amsterdam, meeting up with some friends along the way. They weren't even surprised that I fell and hurt myself. Just laughed at how typical it was (and was glad I was ok).

Anyway, I really hope this email gives you the closure and peace you were looking for. Please remember that everyone makes their own choices and we are all responsible for our own choices. And just because you made some not so great decisions in the past (which everyone does), doesn't mean you aren't a good person. Your son has a great father. And congratulations, by the way! Feel free to friend request me on Insta if you want. And best of luck to you and your family. I hope everything is and remains well with you all. 

Lastly, thank you for sending this email. While I don't think it was necessary, from my point of view, I know it was for you, so I appreciate it and found it very thoughtful :)"