Am I a cheating scumbag that does not deserve my wife, or have I just experienced 'normal' amounts of close calls that are common when in a long-term relationship?

[Stupidkupid]

Just now, Trail Blazer said:

It takes two to tango.  Did OP force his finger in the mouth of the friend who sucked it?  Did the other woman not push back against his boner when she felt it?

The OP has acted highly inappropriately as a man who was either in a relationship, engaged or married to the one woman.  However, at no point in OP's postings has he stated that any of these women felt uncomfortable.

OP is seeking insight into whether the consensus believes he's a cheater.  You're trying to create issues that don't exist by taking examples he's described and twisting them.

 

 

I am a woman and I cannot tell you how many times men have pushed themselves against me without invitation. You're absolutely kidding yourself, and so is the OP, if he thinks all of his interactions with these women were consensual on their part. And how would he know? It's not as though he ever asked. He just went around drinking shoving his crotch into women in queues and smacking women as he walked by them. When I was young I was too afraid to confront and regularly laughed off this behaviour, even though deep down it bothered me. Grossed me out and often made me feel upset and afraid. 

So don't give me the "They pushed themselves back" we only have his word for that and he was drunk. I have lived this experience more times than I care to remember.

Also, I have read the entire thread. The OP asked if another poster would divorce on the basis that it was not cheating but something else, I have answered, as have others,

I am twisting nothing, I have lived this. He was not a good person and his behaviour was tantamount to sexual assault. He has been very lucky to have neither been beaten up by another man in these situations or reported to the police. He is getting help. Good. But that doesn't mean his behaviour was not predatory nor that his wife should not leave him/ does not deserve a better husband.

[connor_1991]

4 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

It takes two to tango.  Did OP force his finger in the mouth of the friend who sucked it?  Did the other woman not push back against his boner when she felt it?

The OP has acted highly inappropriately as a man who was either in a relationship, engaged or married to the one woman.  However, at no point in OP's postings has he stated that any of these women felt uncomfortable.

OP is seeking insight into whether the consensus believes he's a cheater.  You're trying to create issues that don't exist by taking examples he's described and twisting them.

 

 

I did not force my finger in her mouth - she randomly grabbed my hand and did it, but I did not stop it from happening once she started!

She pushed back in a very flirty way that was obvious to me - she could also have moved to the side like I did to stop it going further.

[Stupidkupid]

5 minutes ago, connor_1991 said:

Sure, as I stated above I have reached out to all those that I was worried I had behaved inappropriately towards, and all basically laughed at the suggestion and just said along the lines of "it was a fun night, don't be silly, we are friends". Trust me - with my OCD I was almost perusing for the worst possible answer (as a means of validating my feelings of deserving to be cast out), and so I literally asked everyone (one of whom I had not spoken to in many many years), and reminded them of the details so that they could fully remember the moments in case they had forgotten (most of them forgotten had until I reminded them).

So if me seeking help is not enough, what else would you have me do as a way of levelling things, as you say my current actions to fix things are not enough?

For reference, the incident I was most worried about was one where I grabbed the bum of a girl whilst I was basically black out drunk - I had only met her that day so could basically claim she was a stranger - luckily I had her Instagram so could reach out and say sorry. Not that I need to provide you with this evidence, but hopefully it eases your worry about feeling bad for these women as you say. All other incidents are with friends that I am still in close contact with and I told you they were fine with it (even if I am clearly not).

FOR CONTEXT - I SAID I FELT BAD FOR HER SLIPPING OVER AS I BOUGHT HER LOTS OF DRINKS AND I FELT BAD FOR PINCHING HER BUM WHILST WE WERE DANCING:

"Connor - hello!! I am SO sorry for the late reply to your very thoughtful email. It of course took me majorly by surprise to hear from you, and I wanted to give my reply some thought, and then the last few days totally got away from me. I am actually getting married next month (a redo from last year's postponement due to COVID) and this past weekend was our wedding shower. So, anyway, I am sorry and I hope you didn't think I wouldn't reply. 

It's so nice to hear from you! But I have to admit your worry over that night made me so sad. I hate to think you've been harboring upsetness or guilt over any wrongdoing that night. Because from where I sit, you did nothing wrong at all. 

You are right that it was a fun night!! Really fun. One of the best of my trip. I also did a lot of drinking back then... much more than I should have, and these days I am also making much better decisions. But what I really wanted to say in this email is that everyone makes their own choices in life. I chose to hang out with you guys that night, and I chose to drink as much as I did. You are not responsible for that or for me slipping and falling. That was just an unfortunate accident because it rained and was wet out, and because I am just that clumsy. (I really am. I injure myself quite a lot, actually, always getting bumps and bruises.) 

And if you grabbed my bum, I didn't even notice, so please don't worry about that. I do appreciate your apology, though, because I do remember times that other guys have actually made me feel uncomfortable (and worse), and I can let you know not one of them has ever apologized to me. So that should make you feel good about what kind of person you are -- a good one, because you have apologized, and didn't even do anything wrong. Honestly, as a woman, I have many memories of being treated badly by guys, but meeting you and your friends on that trip is not one of them. I told everyone when I got back to the states about how I met these really nice dudes from England and they were so fun and so nice to me after I stupidly fell on my face.  

So no, you didn't cause any harm at all! And it was great meeting you all and hanging out that night. I did finish my trip and, despite the black eye, it was a total blast. I went off to Paris and Munich and ended my trip in Amsterdam, meeting up with some friends along the way. They weren't even surprised that I fell and hurt myself. Just laughed at how typical it was (and was glad I was ok).

Anyway, I really hope this email gives you the closure and peace you were looking for. Please remember that everyone makes their own choices and we are all responsible for our own choices. And just because you made some not so great decisions in the past (which everyone does), doesn't mean you aren't a good person. Your son has a great father. And congratulations, by the way! Feel free to friend request me on Insta if you want. And best of luck to you and your family. I hope everything is and remains well with you all. 

Lastly, thank you for sending this email. While I don't think it was necessary, from my point of view, I know it was for you, so I appreciate it and found it very thoughtful :)"

And?

You didn't ask any of them for their consent when you were pressing yourself against them and so at the point at which you were doing it you had not verified their consent nor treated them respectfully and, to answer you again, I would absolutely divorce you. Stop using the above to retrospectively justify your behaviour. 

[connor_1991]

11 minutes ago, Stupidkupid said:

I am a woman and I cannot tell you how many times men have pushed themselves against me without invitation. You're absolutely kidding yourself, and so is the OP, if he thinks all of his interactions with these women were consensual on their part. And how would he know? It's not as though he ever asked. He just went around drinking shoving his crotch into women in queues and smacking women as he walked by them. When I was young I was too afraid to confront and regularly laughed off this behaviour, even though deep down it bothered me. Grossed me out and often made me feel upset and afraid. 

So don't give me the "They pushed themselves back" we only have his word for that and he was drunk. I have lived this experience more times than I care to remember.

Also, I have read the entire thread. The OP asked if another poster would divorce on the basis that it was not cheating but something else, I have answered, as have others,

I am twisting nothing, I have lived this. He was not a good person and his behaviour was tantamount to sexual assault. He has been very lucky to have neither been beaten up by another man in these situations or reported to the police. He is getting help. Good. But that doesn't mean his behaviour was not predatory nor that his wife should not leave him/ does not deserve a better husband.

I don't know how many times I have to say it - I have verified that ALL were consensual. A lot of the people involved in the incidents wanted to take things further in fact - not that you would believe it anyway. 

[Trail Blazer]

3 minutes ago, Stupidkupid said:

I am a woman and I cannot tell you how many times men have pushed themselves against me without invitation. You're absolutely kidding yourself, and so is the OP, if he thinks all of his interactions with these women were consensual on their part. And how would he know? It's not as though he ever asked. He just went around drinking shoving his crotch into women in queues and smacking women as he walked by them. When I was young I was too afraid to confront and regularly laughed off this behaviour, even though deep down it bothered me. Grossed me out and often made me feel upset and afraid. 

So don't give me the "They pushed themselves back" we only have his word for that and he was drunk. I have lived this experience more times than I care to remember.

Also, I have read the entire thread. The OP asked if another poster would divorce on the basis that it was not cheating but something else, I have answered, as have others,

I am twisting nothing, I have lived this. He was not a good person and his behaviour was tantamount to sexual assault. He has been very lucky to have neither been beaten up by another man in these situations or reported to the police. He is getting help. Good. But that doesn't mean his behaviour was not predatory nor that his wife should not leave him/ does not deserve a better husband.

Clearly you are projecting.

OP didn't ask you to go off on a tangent expanding upon these examples with your own assumptions. 

You can't pick and choose what bits of OP's account you'll take at face value and what you'll ignore.  

OP didn't ask if his behavior was appropriate in all contexts; OP simply asked if his behavior constitutes cheating.

I could counter your argument by sharing anecdotes of inappropriate female behavior that I've experienced, but what is the point?  

I don't seek to invalidate how you were obviously made to feel.  However, I question the appropriateness of bringing it up in someone else's thread when it's irrelevant to what they're seeking.

[Trail Blazer]

13 minutes ago, connor_1991 said:

I did not force my finger in her mouth - she randomly grabbed my hand and did it, but I did not stop it from happening once she started!

She pushed back in a very flirty way that was obvious to me - she could also have moved to the side like I did to stop it going further.

I understand that.  My question was rhetorical and directed at the quoted poster to illustrate a point.

[connor_1991]

11 minutes ago, Stupidkupid said:

And?

You didn't ask any of them for their consent when you were pressing yourself against them and so at the point at which you were doing it you had not verified their consent nor treated them respectfully and, to answer you again, I would absolutely divorce you. Stop using the above to retrospectively justify your behaviour. 

I don't think it works like that - whenever someone starts dancing with you in bar, I don't think they ever ask, its more confirmed or denied through actions. I mean people can make it quite clear through actions that they do or don't like someone's advances. At least from my experience that is how I approached people and they approached me in clubs. Seemed like that was how it worked. But you may be right - I probs am a predator

[d0nnivain]

19 minutes ago, connor_1991 said:

Sure, as I stated above I have reached out to all those that I was worried I had behaved inappropriately towards, and all basically laughed at the suggestion and just said along the lines of "it was a fun night, don't be silly, we are friends".

OMG.  When did you reach out to these woman?  You doing that especially if it was years after the fact or frankly any more than a week later, puts you in a whole new level of creepy.  

While I wouldn't divorce you over stupid garbage you did before we were married. I would absolutely dump you for not letting go of this & for staying in active touch with women you previously expressed a desire to have sex with.  You behavior NOW is what is at issue & with each post your present actions are weirder & weirder.  

[connor_1991]

1 minute ago, d0nnivain said:

OMG.  When did you reach out to these woman?  You doing that especially if it was years after the fact or frankly any more than a week later, puts you in a whole new level of creepy.  

While I wouldn't divorce you over stupid garbage you did before we were married. I would absolutely dump you for not letting go of this & for staying in active touch with women you previously expressed a desire to have sex with.  You behavior NOW is what is at issue & with each post your present actions are weirder & weirder.  

To be clear, its not like I am 'reaching out' from nowhere. A lot of them are my friends I speak to regularly and my wife knows I am friends with them (she is friends with a lot of them too). I mean is it creepy to want to check that I didn't hurt someone's feelings and if so, apologise? Would people not prefer this type of person rather than one who just never feels the need to say sorry and/or check in. I mean the email response from that random girl years ago (see my response to StupidKupid above) didn't exactly make me look weird did it? - she seemed really appreciative of the fact I bothered to check in and ask.

[connor_1991]

8 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

OMG.  When did you reach out to these woman?  You doing that especially if it was years after the fact or frankly any more than a week later, puts you in a whole new level of creepy.  

 

A week later I didn't have the OCD like I do now. It can develop years later.

 

[d0nnivain]

OK.  If you apologized a week later, that is cool.  You made it sound like you reach out to them now that you are thinking about all this. 

If the women themselves accepted your apology & your wife is not bothered by these disclosures about your bad choices years ago, you really need to get to the bottom of why you are so obsessed about all of this now & why you are trying to sabotage yourself.  

After my parents died, I felt very unworthy & unloved.  I did a lot to screw up my life.  I felt like I needed to be punished, that I needed to be made to pay for my sins.  It was very self destructive & I had to work with a good therapist to forgive myself.  I still battle with these feelings of inadequacy & go through these periods when I screw up.  It's like people with a cutting disorder.  They will tell you they cut to feel something, only I do it mentally / virtually / to my business not so bloody or literally.  It is a problem & you are on that path.  Get off by getting help.  

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, connor_1991 said:

I know from validation that these women weren't made unconformable by my actions

That they told you. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were being kind, and your behavior actually did make them feel inappropriately. Particularly if these are work colleagues, they still have to work with you... need to maintain that relationship...

But again, I think it’s time to move on from this and make better decisions in the future... 

Edited May 27, 2021 by BaileyB

[connor_1991]

1 minute ago, BaileyB said:

That they told you. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were being kind, and your behavior actually did make them feel inappropriately. Particularly if these are work colleagues, they still have to work with you... need to maintain that relationship...

But again, I think it’s time to move on from this and make better decisions in the future... 

In fact, I don't work with any of them anymore. I changed my job 2 years ago to get away from that lifestyle (that company has an insane drinking culture that I was fully guilty of helping create/maintain along with many many others who worked there), but I am still friends with all those old female colleagues and speak to them often.

[connor_1991]

7 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

OK.  If you apologized a week later, that is cool.  You made it sound like you reach out to them now that you are thinking about all this. 

If the women themselves accepted your apology & your wife is not bothered by these disclosures about your bad choices years ago, you really need to get to the bottom of why you are so obsessed about all of this now & why you are trying to sabotage yourself.  

After my parents died, I felt very unworthy & unloved.  I did a lot to screw up my life.  I felt like I needed to be punished, that I needed to be made to pay for my sins.  It was very self destructive & I had to work with a good therapist to forgive myself.  I still battle with these feelings of inadequacy & go through these periods when I screw up.  It's like people with a cutting disorder.  They will tell you they cut to feel something, only I do it mentally / virtually / to my business not so bloody or literally.  It is a problem & you are on that path.  Get off by getting help.  

To be clear - you will think I am creepy, as I AM BRINGING this up years later to all those involved. 

So sorry to hear about your story  Sounds like I need this therapist in order to forgive myself and move onto the right path

[d0nnivain]

1 minute ago, BaileyB said:

That they told you. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were being kind, and your behavior actually did make them feel inappropriately. Particularly if these are work colleagues, they still have to work with you... need to maintain that relationship...

I hate that . . . 

Look, if a man makes a woman feel uncomfortable & he then apologizes, I think it's still  incumbent on the woman to speak up.  While forgiving him is probably the path of least resistance to maintaining a functioning work relationship, she needs to use her voice & say something like 

I will accept your apology because I'm the bigger person.  Thank you for acknowledging that what you did was wrong & creepy.  I trust this will never happen again because I won't be nice about it next time.  Got it?  

She should have said F-off when it happened.  If some guy gropes you, you don't have to take it. Break his hand or at least bend the wrist back.  Move away.  Shout.  Defend yourself.  Don't just stand there & let some guy do whatever. . . Call the A$$ out. Shame him.  The whole culture of demure acceptance feeds the whole predator / entitlement thing.  Women need to learn to say No! loudly, clearly & forcefully when necessary.  

[d0nnivain]

2 minutes ago, connor_1991 said:

To be clear - you will think I am creepy, as I AM BRINGING this up years later to all those involved. 

Don't do that.  They don't want to hear it & your wife is more likely to be upset that you are still in touch (pun intended) with all those women from your former job.  keep them in your contacts as linked in friends but otherwise there is no reason for you to be involved with them in any meaningful way, certainly not on a level where you are still discussing sexualized behavior.  

You need boundaries.  Without them you are going to get yourself in trouble.  

If some guy from my past came at me years later out the blue to apologize for some stupid drunken antic from years ago, especially one that I was a willing participant in at the time, I would thereafter go out of my way to avoid him.  I'd never give him a good reference & I would assume he was mentally ill.  Even if the conduct was unwelcome & I had my fair share of that too, discussing it years later when we had not otherwise stayed in touch or even if he was only on my periphery, I would still conclude this is not a stable, healthy person who & wanted any where near me.  I'd take pains to cut them out of my life.     

Edited May 27, 2021 by d0nnivain

[connor_1991]

1 minute ago, d0nnivain said:

Don't do that.  They don't want to hear it & your wife is more likely to be upset that you are still in touch (pun intended) with all those women from your former job.  keep them in your contacts as linked in friends but otherwise there is no reason for you to be involved with them in any meaningful way, certainly not on a level where you are still discussing sexualized behavior.  

You need boundaries.  Without them you are going to get yourself in trouble.  

Ok, thank you understood. To be clear, I have told my wife that I reached out to these people. She was annoyed at it, but understood why I did it

[d0nnivain]

3 minutes ago, connor_1991 said:

Ok, thank you understood. To be clear, I have told my wife that I reached out to these people. She was annoyed at it, but understood why I did it

She told you she understood.  She lied.  

She is now starting to think that you are hiding more then you are disclosing.  She thinks she's getting trickle truth. You are painting a picture of yourself as a predator.  

Again, with every post, with every action you are digging yourself a deeper hole.  

Do you not understanding that by coming back & revisiting whatever you did to these women years later, if they were in fact bothered by the conduct, you bringing this up again now violates them all over again.  

Address your issues but leave everybody else out of it.  

[connor_1991]

5 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

She told you she understood.  She lied.  

She is now starting to think that you are hiding more then you are disclosing.  She thinks she's getting trickle truth. You are painting a picture of yourself as a predator.  

Again, with every post, with every action you are digging yourself a deeper hole.  

Do you not understanding that by coming back & revisiting whatever you did to these women years later, if they were in fact bothered by the conduct, you bringing this up again now violates them all over again.  

Address your issues but leave everybody else out of it.  

Thank you. You were right that raising this topic on here would only create differing opinions, and I think its safe to say it means all I can do is listen to the most important one - my wife's.

BUT, the lessons on getting therapy I will certainly take on board in order to get help. 

[salparadise]

2 hours ago, connor_1991 said:

You are right - maybe I feel like this because I deserve to have some sort of punishment/consequence for my actions.

 

Marquis de Sade’s alter — perhaps that wifey would enjoy a dominatrix home study course for her next occasion?

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, Trail Blazer said:

Clearly you are projecting.

This is OT, but one has to remember that it's not sexual harassment IF it's desired. That can be a big "if" but the point remains.

There may be those women out there who have NEVER EVER enjoyed some "rubbing up against" attractive men at a dance floor and can't imagine how anyone could possibly enjoy it. And who have perhaps been rubbed up against under inappropriate circumstances and were to some extent traumatized by it, which certainly IS sexual harrassment.

That is unfortunate. However, there are also women who DO do this kind of thing, occasionally, when attracted to a guy. And in fact nightclubs are chock full of women rubbing up against guys, e.g. while tipsy and dancing, and consider it a fun night out. Anyone remember the lamabada?

Different strokes for different folks.

Edited May 27, 2021 by mark clemson

[Trail Blazer]

9 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

This is OT, but one has to remember that it's not sexual harassment IF it's desired. That can be a big "if" but the point remains.

There may be those women out there who have NEVER EVER enjoyed some "rubbing up against" attractive men at a dance floor and can't imagine how anyone could possibly enjoy it. And who have perhaps been rubbed up against under inappropriate circumstances and were to some extent traumatized by it, which certainly IS sexual harrassment.

That is unfortunate. However, there are also women who DO do this kind of thing, occasionally, when attracted to a guy. And in fact nightclubs are chock full of women rubbing up against guys, e.g. while tipsy and dancing, and consider it a fun night out. Anyone remember the lamabada?

Different strokes for different folks.

💯 percent!

My experience has been exactly this.  I can't recall the amount of women who rubbed up against me on the dance floor way back when.  It was usually how I knew she was signalling interest.

Many times I had women who weren't looking to be taken home, but they were still happy with the attention and most certainly considered physically flirting with a guy a "fun night out."

As far as the OP is concerned, he's done nothing wrong in this context.  His behavior ought only to be judged in the context of being in a relationship.  And, as mentioned previously, in that context his behavior was most certainly inappropriate.

[connor_1991]

2 hours ago, Stupidkupid said:

Also, I have read the entire thread. The OP asked if another poster would divorce on the basis that it was not cheating but something else, I have answered, as have others,

So you would divorce me not on the possibility that I had cheated, but that under the belief that any interaction between a man and other woman must be sexual assault? Would you therefore classify somebody striking up a conversation with a stranger as sexual harassment I assume? How does anyone ever interact with another human in your world?

[salparadise]

Yes, you are making things worse every time you open your mouth, to your wife or the other women. For heavens sake, quit before you burn the house down. 

[basil67]

Going back to your original question, it seems that some posters think that your actions are/were very inappropriate and others don't.   So it would seem that your question has been answered: different people have different views.

While such a careful recount of all you've done wrong makes me feel like you're still enjoying the memories of that old behaviour somewhat, I will take your word for it that you're trying to move past it.   Still though, I do wonder what you hope to achieve by focusing on the past.  

Given that no sexual harassment charges seem imminent, how about switching the dialogue from what you've done into how to move forward?  What does your therapist say?