Am I a cheating scumbag that does not deserve my wife, or have I just experienced 'normal' amounts of close calls that are common when in a long-term relationship?

[connor_1991]

10 hours ago, basil67 said:

While such a careful recount of all you've done wrong makes me feel like you're still enjoying the memories of that old behaviour somewhat, I will take your word for it that you're trying to move past it.   Still though, I do wonder what you hope to achieve by focusing on the past.  

Given that no sexual harassment charges seem imminent, how about switching the dialogue from what you've done into how to move forward?  What does your therapist say?

I can guarantee you that I only have feelings of utter sadness and remorse over the incidents and wish I could only tell a younger version of myself to be less immature. I sometimes miss the outgoing lifestyle that comes with being young, as now that I am a dad who works from home, things are quite different. However, when I do go out again in future I look forward to proving to myself that I can act respectably and sensibly, and with real concern of my actions towards my wife. Again, the nature of OCD means you can't help but obsess over the past and read into things - the article here will give you an idea of what I am going through (see steps 3-15 at the bottom of the page). https://madamenoire.com/1133844/cheating-ocd-what-it-is-and-signs-you-have-it/. I am not getting some sick kick out of thinking about these moments over and over again!

It is amazing that this whole topic diverted to a sexual harassment / assault trail. I mean I have had my genitals grabbed by a female friend, had people pinch my behind, rub my legs whilst sat down etc - all with no warning, or consent, but I wouldn't' immediately label these people as predators and that they had assaulted me (even though they never apologised). When people are drunk they do silly things, but I don't think those moments define the person, and I am sure they regret what they did - it certainly did not upset or impact me as I know the intention was not to harm me - people make mistakes, and I don't want to take them to court and ruin their lives over it, so long as I know that this is not part of a wider sexual behaviour problem that appears to be escalating to something worse. Of course, concern for women's (and mens) safety is important and I do feel sorry for anyone who has experienced being made to feel unconformable by others who have not been given consent to behave in such a way, but if we really are going to start throwing the book at everyone who has in moment of young stupidity touched someone without asking, then almost every single person I know would be facing legal action (male and female friends). 

I have had light CBT for now, but my more intense course starts next week. I hope this corrects my perceptions of things and helps me deal with my intrusive thoughts (much like those listed in the article). Proving to myself that I can behave like an upstanding citizen and good husband whilst on any potential future nights out should help me with beginning to trust myself moving forwards.

 

[connor_1991]

On 5/27/2021 at 11:42 PM, basil67 said:

Going back to your original question, it seems that some posters think that your actions are/were very inappropriate and others don't.   So it would seem that your question has been answered: different people have different views.

While such a careful recount of all you've done wrong makes me feel like you're still enjoying the memories of that old behaviour somewhat, I will take your word for it that you're trying to move past it.   Still though, I do wonder what you hope to achieve by focusing on the past.  

Given that no sexual harassment charges seem imminent, how about switching the dialogue from what you've done into how to move forward?  What does your therapist say?

  

I can guarantee you that I only have feelings of utter sadness and remorse over the incidents and wish I could only tell a younger version of myself to be less immature. I sometimes miss the outgoing lifestyle that comes with being young, as now that I am a dad who works from home, things are quite different. However, when I do go out again in future I look forward to proving to myself that I can act respectably and sensibly, and with real concern of my actions towards my wife. Again, the nature of OCD means you can't help but obsess over the past and read into things - the article called 'cheating OCD what it is and signs you have it' will give you an idea of what I am going through (see steps 3-15 at the bottom of the webpage - I can't seem to share the link as per community rules). I am not getting some sick kick out of thinking about these moments over and over again!

It is amazing that this whole topic diverted to a sexual harassment / assault trail. I mean I have had my genitals grabbed by a female friend, had people pinch my behind, rub my legs whilst sat down etc - all with no warning, or consent, but I wouldn't' immediately label these people as predators and that they had assaulted me (even though they never apologised). When people are drunk they do silly things, but I don't think those moments define the person, and I am sure they regret what they did - it certainly did not upset or impact me as I know the intention was not to harm me - people make mistakes, and I don't want to take them to court and ruin their lives over it, so long as I know that this is not part of a wider sexual behaviour problem that appears to be escalating to something worse. Of course, concern for women's (and mens) safety is important and I do feel sorry for anyone who has experienced being made to feel unconformable by others who have not been given consent to behave in such a way, but if we really are going to start throwing the book at everyone who has in moment of young stupidity touched someone without asking, then almost every single person I know would be facing legal action (male and female friends). 

I have had light CBT for now, but my more intense course starts next week. I hope this corrects my perceptions of things and helps me deal with my intrusive thoughts (much like those listed in the article). Proving to myself that I can behave like an upstanding citizen and good husband whilst on any potential future nights out should help me with beginning to trust myself moving forwards.

[connor_1991]

On 5/26/2021 at 1:34 PM, basil67 said:

Indeed.  To this day, I regret not loudly making a fuss the last time a man rubbed himself on my rear end.  

People (including myself) can be disgusting creatures - I look back and cringe at my behaviour. The #metoo movement has been a real OCD trigger for me (as it has been for many men) lately - you will find lots on google about this.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, connor_1991 said:

It is amazing that this whole topic diverted to a sexual harassment / assault trail.

Why do you think it's amazing?   If you didn't realise that your actions could have been interpreted as sexual harassment, you wouldn't have contacted the women involved and you wouldn't be worrying yourself into OCD about the outcome.   

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by basil67

[connor_1991]

7 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Why is it amazing?  Are you unaware that may women have been sexually assaulted?  

Besides, you did later contact the women who you were inappropriate with to see if they were OK with it.   If you didn't see your actions as potentially harassing, you wouldn't have felt the need to reach out. 

At the time when my mind was healthy I saw no issue with it (as did they). But the growth of woke and cancel culture makes me question every action and comment I've ever made. So, yes I reached out to check because I care.

By the definition of how extreme opinions are nowadays, some would claim that your endless pursuit of trying to convince me of a crime I did not commit, is emotional abuse that is pushing me into a state of even worse mental health. I don't think that by the way as my default is not to defer to this lazy way of thinking.

I do feel that you are trying to seek revenge on me for your own negative experiences though. It's like regardless of the topic, you were going to just use this as an avenue to express your own grievancess anyway.

[basil67]

Seek revenge?   Dude, I've done nothing to you.   

Which parts of modern teaching on consent do you find extreme?  

[connor_1991]

25 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Seek revenge?   Dude, I've done nothing to you.   

Which parts of modern teaching on consent do you find extreme?  

I mean some people may claim you are gaslighting - "Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse where a person or group makes someone question their sanity, perception of reality, or memories. People experiencing gaslighting often feel confused, anxious, and unable to trust themselves."

I understand consent. No means no. None of the people in my scenarios said no.

[connor_1991]

35 minutes ago, connor_1991 said:

I mean some people may claim you are gaslighting - "Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse where a person or group makes someone question their sanity, perception of reality, or memories. People experiencing gaslighting often feel confused, anxious, and unable to trust themselves."

I understand consent. No means no. None of the people in my scenarios said no.

Please don't worry though - I am not accusing you of gaslighting. Sorry if that comment upset or worried you - I did not want that. I just think your need to not listen to the facts of what is being presented to you, could land you in trouble one day and rub people up the wrong way!

I commend you desire to look out for your fellow women (and harassment/assault is a major problem by the way - I see it all the time for men, but mainly for women), but please just listen to what I have said multiple times in this topic.

Please answer me this question if you could. In this scenario, do you see an issue? How do you read this situation. 

Person A strikes up a conversation at a pub with person B (they have never met before). Person B has had a hard day and really doesn't want to chat and would rather just sit quietly by themselves on their phone. However, so not be rude, Person B chats with Person A anyway. Is person A harassing person B? Person A can only take things on face value as person B has not told them to go away or to leave them alone. In your world is Person A harassing person B and there should face criminal charges?

Edited May 29, 2021 by connor_1991

[basil67]

1 hour ago, connor_1991 said:

I understand consent. No means no. None of the people in my scenarios said no.

Lack of a "no" is not consent.  When a 24yo family member started feeling me up when I was 14, I froze and did not say No.   That I did not say "no" does not mean that I consented.   These days, people are taught that they need either a "yes" or enthusiastic participation

34 minutes ago, connor_1991 said:

Please answer me this question if you could. In this scenario, do you see an issue? How do you read this situation. 

Person A strikes up a conversation at a pub with person B (they have never met before). Person B has had a hard day and really doesn't want to chat and would rather just sit quietly by themselves on their phone. However, so not be rude, Person B chats with Person A anyway. Is person A harassing person B? Person A can only take things on face value as person B has not told them to go away or to leave them alone. In your world is Person A harassing person B and there should face criminal charges?

Where I live, being an annoying conversationalist is not a criminal act.  So no, I would not press charges.  Though it does beg the question of which country sees unwanted conversation as criminal....

Edited May 29, 2021 by basil67

[connor_1991]

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

Lack of a "no" is not consent.  When a 24yo family member started feeling me up when I was 14, I froze and did not say No.   That I did not say "no" does not mean that I consented.   These days, people are taught that they need either a "yes" or enthusiastic participation

Where I live, being an annoying conversationalist is not a criminal act.  So no, I would not press charges.  Though it does beg the question of which country sees unwanted conversation as criminal

A lack of yes doesn't mean its not consent - there is a grey area. I am just going by what I have been raised to know and learnt through school in England. From what I can see, only in California does the yes means yes rule apply, and only recently.

That is truly awful and I am so sorry to hear that. Not sure it is any way linked to my incidents though - and to suggest that my behaviour is anything like your scenario is very cruel.  I mean even if you had said yes 1000 times to the offender in your case, it would still not be consent, as the legal age for consent is 16 (UK law at least)!!!! So there is a huge difference 

 

[mark clemson]

10 hours ago, connor_1991 said:

It is amazing that this whole topic diverted to a sexual harassment / assault trail. I mean I have had my genitals grabbed by a female friend, had people pinch my behind, rub my legs whilst sat down etc - all with no warning, or consent, but I wouldn't' immediately label these people as predators and that they had assaulted me (even though they never apologised).

Me too! (Pun not intended - it's different for women, and sometimes MUCH worse, and it's important to acknowledge that.)

Sexual assault can sometimes technically include these kinds of things in some jurisdictions, so there is the OPTION to press charges if it done excessively. But I suspect that rarely happens with incidents that aren't a major issue for the person involved.

Since you have OCD, it sounds like you are destined to keep beating yourself up over things that almost certainly weren't/aren't THAT big of a deal in the scheme of things. (You mention your friend didn't even remember the incident you were so concerned over.) MO your focus should be on getting the OCD addressed. It can worsen, start causing other problems, etc.

Elaine's suggestion to consider the medical route might not be a bad idea, particularly if you feel it start to intensify/worsen despite therapy.

Edited May 29, 2021 by mark clemson

[basil67]

9 hours ago, connor_1991 said:

A lack of yes doesn't mean its not consent - there is a grey area. I am just going by what I have been raised to know and learnt through school in England. From what I can see, only in California does the yes means yes rule apply, and only recently.

That is truly awful and I am so sorry to hear that. Not sure it is any way linked to my incidents though - and to suggest that my behaviour is anything like your scenario is very cruel.  I mean even if you had said yes 1000 times to the offender in your case, it would still not be consent, as the legal age for consent is 16 (UK law at least)!!!! So there is a huge difference 

 

This is a global site Connor.  Where I live, we're starting to changes to laws with the expectation that one should receive an affirmative for sex. 

OK, so take away my above experience and replace it with the one I had as an adult when a complete stranger ground himself into my rear end in a crowded area.  Again, I was so shocked that I did not react.  That I did not say No, does not mean that I consented.  As I said earlier, I wish I'd been vocal in my objections.  While I may not have called the police, I would have at least liked to leave him to the mercy of the crowd near us. 

[connor_1991]

8 hours ago, basil67 said:

This is a global site Connor.  Where I live, we're starting to changes to laws with the expectation that one should receive an affirmative for sex. 

OK, so take away my above experience and replace it with the one I had as an adult when a complete stranger ground himself into my rear end in a crowded area.  Again, I was so shocked that I did not react.  That I did not say No, does not mean that I consented.  As I said earlier, I wish I'd been vocal in my objections.  While I may not have called the police, I would have at least liked to leave him to the mercy of the crowd near us. 

Yes agree that is not consensual. I guess I am lucky that nobody has said I made them uncomfortable. I will certainly count my lucky stars and move forward with this lesson in my mind. 

Agree that is how the law should be

[NYAG]

On 5/25/2021 at 6:25 PM, connor_1991 said:

To clarify, I have never kissed or had sexual relations with another person but whilst drunk I have done some of the following across our 13 year relationship - started when I was 17, and she was 16:

· Let a female friend suck my finger playfully - which naturally turned me on and made me say an inappropriate comment about wanting to f*** her due to my arousal. I then walked away to find my fiancée who was stood at the bar. I felt awful for that moment. I once also touched this same friend on the leg for a brief moment whilst I sat next to her on a train on a night out, before again realising what I was doing and stopped.

· I did lots of grind dancing with a female friend my stag party, and whilst almost blackout drunk, I then said I wanted to f*** her (whilst I leaned on her shoulder as I could barely stand) before realising what I said and moved away. I also remember moving away due to starting to get a boner too

· On that same stag I grabbed my female friends bum as I hugged her goodbye

· I smacked or pinched a few bums of female friends whilst dancing or hanging out. I do this to my male friends too

· I once, whilst stood in a packed queue, got aroused as I was pressed up against my female friend. I proceeded to let my erection press against her for a moment (she knew and purposely pushed back on it too) which obvs felt good despite us wearing lots of thick layers in winter. I then regained control of my urges and moved moved sideways to avoid my pressing against her again

· I used to spend a lot of my week working late. Despite 95% of time being honest, Across a period o of many years I would on occasion lie about being at work to my partner, whilst I was actually going out drinking with friends. Across 5 years, I would guess it was 30 times in total - ranging from white lies, to going out and spending the whole evening drinking as a way to unwind and relax with friends

· I have been sexually excited when out alone with a female friend before even though I wouldn't go beyond dancing or flirting with them at worst. Its just due to finding them attractive when talking to them. Is this normal?

· I have danced with a random girl before telling her "that I would get with her but I was in a relationship so did not want to". She then just asked to hold me for a short period whilst we were on the dancefloor (which I thought was okay as it was a step back from the kiss she originally was after when she pulled me close). To be clear I just wanted to dance (maybe grind dance), nothing more.

· I flirted with female and male colleagues (I am heterosexual) and female friends and with random females whilst out (talking only and nothing graphic or insulating that I wanted to take things further)

Although I know all of the above was not pre-meditated with the intention for them to happen on those occasions, they kind of just started happening before I realised what I was doing and stopped. But before doing that, did I cross any fatal lines that would now be grounds for separation (all incidents happened whilst we were engaged)? For all the above incidents, I have spoke about most of it with my partner (now my wife) - I truly do love her but I wondered if people thought my behaviour meant I was a cheater? I have told most of this to my partner, and whilst it upset her, she seems to think I haven't cheated, but acknowledges I have come close. Its been 6 months since we spoke about it but I still feel depressed as I am suffering from huge guilt. I used to look at these incidents a bit more positively by telling myself I did well not take things further and felt confident in my ability to not take things further, or that I hadn't crossed a line, but since becoming a dad, getting married and trying to cut down my drinking, I have been left with a horrible feeling towards my past actions that I don't think I can forgive myself for, and it makes me think I don't deserve the great family and life I have. The lying part felt like I was protecting her feelings as I just wanted to find time to unwind with friends as I never really to got to experience the drinking/social lifestyle while I was a teen/young man as I was with her, but I now see that behaviour as horribly deceitful, as she would be sat at home alone waiting for me to come back, and none-the-wiser.

My wife and my friends (including some of the females part of the incidents above) do not seem think I am a cheater, but I thought I would ask on here for an unbias perspective, as I have now developed OCD in trying to attribute meaning to my behaviour and just can't get on with my life (it is all I think about). Despite thinking my behaviour was just silly things that were part of a normal young relationship, in my heart now I feel like I have cheated - this is despite all my best efforts to turn away from opportunities I have had to cheat and take things further.

Sounds like you have already crossed most of the boundaries of a monogamous relationship and you habitually lie to your partner even if you're just sneaking off for a drink with pals. Many would say you were already a cheater, but everyone has their own definition. The question is, does she now trust you when you step outside the door. You are one step away from sleeping with someone.

[connor_1991]

9 minutes ago, NYAG said:

Sounds like you have already crossed most of the boundaries of a monogamous relationship and you habitually lie to your partner even if you're just sneaking off for a drink with pals. Many would say you were already a cheater, but everyone has their own definition. The question is, does she now trust you when you step outside the door. You are one step away from sleeping with someone.

My wife says she trusts me completely despite me revealing all of this. I know that if I did not stop my behaviour of getting very drunk, going out, and getting sucked into that London lifestyle, there is every chance I could have crossed an unforgivable line (such as sleeping with someone). Luckily for me, covid has given me a chance to WFH, hit pause, and review my actions. I have now made some changes to ensure I grow out out of my immature and selfish behaviour. I honestly think I was addicted to a work hard, drink hard lifestyle of prioritising fun over happiness. A key learning for me is that they are two VERY different things, and whilst I used to have fun, I can see looking back that I was unhappy (even depressed). I honestly don't know why my wife forgave me so easily as I still have not forgiven myself completely

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, connor_1991 said:

 I was addicted to a  drink hard lifestyle

Once you get and stay sober your life and relationship will improve exponentially. So will your physical and mental health.

See if sobriety support and general support could work for you:

https://www.aa.org/pages/en_us/is-aa-for-you-twelve-questions-only-you-can-answer

Edited June 8, 2021 by Wiseman2

[NYAG]

4 hours ago, connor_1991 said:

My wife says she trusts me completely despite me revealing all of this. I know that if I did not stop my behaviour of getting very drunk, going out, and getting sucked into that London lifestyle, there is every chance I could have crossed an unforgivable line (such as sleeping with someone). Luckily for me, covid has given me a chance to WFH, hit pause, and review my actions. I have now made some changes to ensure I grow out out of my immature and selfish behaviour. I honestly think I was addicted to a work hard, drink hard lifestyle of prioritising fun over happiness. A key learning for me is that they are two VERY different things, and whilst I used to have fun, I can see looking back that I was unhappy (even depressed). I honestly don't know why my wife forgave me so easily as I still have not forgiven myself completely

Being given a second chance like that is rare and precious. Don't blow it. Best of luck.

[connor_1991]

1 hour ago, NYAG said:

Being given a second chance like that is rare and precious. Don't blow it. Best of luck.

Would you forgive your partner for these things?

[dramafreezone]

A bit of a different take, but I think if you've been trhough all of this and you've not crossed the line, then you two have a pretty good relationship.  Really, this is what a strong marriage is about.  It's not about not ever messing up.  It's about your ability to stare temptation in the eye and not cross the line.  For 13 years at that?  It's actually commendable. 

You should avoid putting yourself in certain situations but you have the mental fortitude and committment to not cross the line.  I would say you're mentally tough.  That said, it's better to be smart and tough.  To use a boxing analogy, you could have two tough boxers, but if one is smart and tough, he's going to win the match every time.  He's smart enough not to put himself into situations where his toughness is tested, but he has it there if he needs to draw upon it.   You don't want to continuously have to test your toughness because we all have a limit, hope that makes sense.

[connor_1991]

2 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

A bit of a different take, but I think if you've been trhough all of this and you've not crossed the line, then you two have a pretty good relationship.  Really, this is what a strong marriage is about.  It's not about not ever messing up.  It's about your ability to stare temptation in the eye and not cross the line.  For 13 years at that?  It's actually commendable. 

You should avoid putting yourself in certain situations but you have the mental fortitude and committment to not cross the line.  I would say you're mentally tough.  That said, it's better to be smart and tough.  To use a boxing analogy, you could have two tough boxers, but if one is smart and tough, he's going to win the match every time.  He's smart enough not to put himself into situations where his toughness is tested, but he has it there if he needs to draw upon it.   You don't want to continuously have to test your toughness because we all have a limit, hope that makes sense.

Thank you. So you deem my actions as not crossing a line? - I used to be proud of my behaviour as I was one of the very few people I knew who did not sleep around whilst in a relationship, but my obsessions over replaying my life in my head has changed my opinion of my past behaviour.

I always trusted my mental fortitude and I need to work at trusting myself again.

I like your analogy, and it makes sense. I constantly put myself into sticky situations. I hope by cutting out alcohol that I remove these types of situations in future.

[dramafreezone]

40 minutes ago, connor_1991 said:

Thank you. So you deem my actions as not crossing a line? - I used to be proud of my behaviour as I was one of the very few people I knew who did not sleep around whilst in a relationship, but my obsessions over replaying my life in my head has changed my opinion of my past behaviour.

I always trusted my mental fortitude and I need to work at trusting myself again.

I like your analogy, and it makes sense. I constantly put myself into sticky situations. I hope by cutting out alcohol that I remove these types of situations in future.

Well it's not ideal obviously, but you've avoided actual sexual intercourse from what I can see.  That said everyone has a breaking point and if you keep playing with fire you'll find yourself in a situation that you can't get out of.

But all of this was before you were even married?  Just do your best to make the best decisions you can day by day and stop dwelling on the past.

Edited June 8, 2021 by dramafreezone

[basil67]

1 hour ago, connor_1991 said:

Thank you. So you deem my actions as not crossing a line? - I used to be proud of my behaviour as I was one of the very few people I knew who did not sleep around whilst in a relationship, but my obsessions over replaying my life in my head has changed my opinion of my past behaviour.

How much of your current thoughts involve the idea that you're judging your past behaviours by today's more enlightened social norms?

Back in the day, many of us did stuff which wasn't acceptable. I've looked back at some of my own actions and wondered what the hell I was thinking.  Sure, some people would already have had a better handle on this than others, but for them it was great instincts.  Those of us who didn't have great instincts needed the guidance young people are being given today: Being taught about respectful relationships and consent. 

There's really nothing you can do other than accept that times have changed and you have changed. Forgive yourself and move on.

[connor_1991]

8 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

Well it's not ideal obviously, but you've avoided actual sexual intercourse from what I can see.  That said everyone has a breaking point and if you keep playing with fire you'll find yourself in a situation that you can't get out of.

But all of this was before you were even married?  Just do your best to make the best decisions you can day by day and stop dwelling on the past.

Yes, I have not had sex with anybody else in my life. 99% of this stuff was before I was married. I have tried to dance with women since I was married, but that is it.

[connor_1991]

7 hours ago, basil67 said:

How much of your current thoughts involve the idea that you're judging your past behaviours by today's more enlightened social norms?

Back in the day, many of us did stuff which wasn't acceptable. I've looked back at some of my own actions and wondered what the hell I was thinking.  Sure, some people would already have had a better handle on this than others, but for them it was great instincts.  Those of us who didn't have great instincts needed the guidance young people are being given today: Being taught about respectful relationships and consent. 

There's really nothing you can do other than accept that times have changed and you have changed. Forgive yourself and move on.

Yes. This is something I am doing. I am applying the modern day thinking and standards of western culture to all my incidents, which certainly makes me see them a lot more negatively than I did at the time. I think I had some good morals and instincts as all of this stuff could have been a lot worse without it, but agree that the education and socially enlightened norms of today would have helped me in the past too - there is just no way I could act like this now given what I know.

[basil67]

What does your therapist recommend for leaving this in the past?