how do you reconcile when each blames the other?

[Kyra]

2 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

... you want him to apologize. In real world conflicts, that rarely happens.

Yes, there are some people in love who have the capacity to apologize, but you should probably know by now whether your partner is that kind of person. He should have already displayed that capacity.

Really - people in relationships rarely apologise? That's not been my experience - this man included. I don't think I could be with someone who had no capacity to apologize.

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What's childlike is imagining and fantasizing that our will on their own recognize when they treat us badly without us getting in their faces or without us taking some real initiative to tell them why you're hurt and mapping out a path by which they can avoid hurting us. 

Of course, that's been the real issue - that we need to talk so that we can hear each side and hopefully I can make him understand where he went wrong, otherwise there's no hope that he won't do it again. It has taken a lot of persuading to get him to agree to meet with me to talk. That's actually what made me start this thread, because I was pulling my hair out asking him to talk and he was stone-walling me. I persisted because this is not normal behaviour for him and it would be tragic to end a usually great relationship over a stupid misunderstanding.

[basil67]

17 minutes ago, Kyra said:

Really - people in relationships rarely apologise? That's not been my experience - this man included. I don't think I could be with someone who had no capacity to apologize.

Yeah, I'm not big on apologies.   Talk is cheap and apologies can be completely meaningless.

In my marriage, instead of apologies we take on board what the other has said and change our behaviour.   

[MsJayne]

Reading through all of this thread, it just shouts 'incompatibility'. If he hasn't responded in 5 days, well, that's a message in itself - a message that says , "I've had a gutful and I'm not tolerating any more nagging". Sorry to sound harsh but that's how your problem comes across, as if you expect the whole relationship to evolve around you and what you want. If a big part of the problem is that he says things which imply he doesn't care about you or need you, perhaps you need to take that on board and accept that's who he is instead of trying to make him apologise for being himself. Perhaps there's a reason he says hurtful things, maybe something you do really gets on his nerves, maybe saying hurtful things is his way of expressing irritation. On the other hand, if he says really hurtful things, really obvious stuff, and then refuses to acknowledge it, then you need to look hard at that and see it for what it is - abuse. 

[Lotsgoingon]

Yes, I do something bad, I might apologize to a partner.

But the way you describe this conflict (the blowup suggests a pattern and a history) ... no, people don't apologize for being themselves! The problem is that couple's conflict often stems from two people being themselves--unfortunately in highly incompatible ways.

And to Basil's point, they often do not apologize in a way that changes behavior--unless the other person insists on it ... or leads the couple through a process of problem-solving and reconciliation. 

When is the last time your bf apologized for behaving as he is behaving now? Or the last time he apologized (and changed behavior) after you objected to some previous behavior of his?

Yes, we apologize for the small stuff. You guys are in serious, big-stuff conflict. People tend to entrench themselves and get defensive in big conflicts ... and as Basil said, apology doesn't even get to change of behavior.  People feel threatened by conflict and criticism and sometimes just freaked out after a blowup.  Changing behavior requires major humility and ironically enough, lots of confidence and security. High high amounts of security and humility. 

And a blowup almost inherently signals that the conflict touched on deep issues--touched on how you two fundamentally see yourselves. That's hard ... which is why I say if you want to try to talk about reconciling, one partner has to take the lead and often the lead has to be to help the other partner not feel so threatened. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Lotsgoingon

[Kyra]

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Yeah, I'm not big on apologies.   Talk is cheap and apologies can be completely meaningless. In my marriage, instead of apologies we take on board what the other has said and change our behaviour.   

In response to a few comments about apologies: 

I agree that they are meaningless if they don't reflect how a person feels and the person makes no effort to improve.

To me, an apology is only one small part of resolving a conflict, and solving an issue, but an important part. It doesn't necessarily have to take the form of the words "I'm sorry," it can be conveyed in other ways - as long as it's understood. It's not much use a man thinking to himself that he regrets what he did and won't do it again but keeps his thoughts to himself. 

Apologizing doesn't accepting all blame either. Perhaps that's why other people think apologies are so hard and rare, if that's what they think an apology is. It can be as small as, "I don't think I did anything wrong, but I am sorry you are upset." The point of an apology is to let the other person know that you do care how they feel and you don't want to make them feel bad. Ideally it's also acknowledging that you played a role in the cause, even if it was unintentional.  That is the first step in changing your behaviour. And if you think it why keep it a secret instead of assuring your partner that you do care how they feel and will try to change your behaviour instead of leaving them guessing and waiting to see if you do it again?

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 people don't apologize for being themselves

I do!  Sometimes I lose my temper, sometimes I'm lazy, forgetful or messy. Those things are being myself and I do apologize them. What you do is part of who you are. You don't get a free pass just because that's who you are

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And to Basil's point, they often do not apologize in a way that changes behavior--unless the other person insists on it ... or leads the couple through a process of problem-solving and reconciliation. 

I have said all along, I don't just need an apology. I listed it among other requirements 

[Lotsgoingon]

I hear you. Must be incredibly disappointing that he has been distant. 

So my question: how good were things before the blowup?

 

[Kyra]

3 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

I hear you. Must be incredibly disappointing that he has been distant. 

So my question: how good were things before the blowup?

 

Yes, thanks. Usually amazingly good! He has been my best friend and lover. We'd see each other once a week, sometimes less as we both have busy lives, but when together it is quality time. We spend give each other our full attention, talk, cuddle and do fun things together, although I was also just happy to be in his company. The sex was incredible! We'd text each other most days, just wanting to keep in touch. We mostly share the same life values and many interests and pretty much want the same thing out of this relationship. In the past I have been impressed with how well he dealt with issues. He is usually calm and wise and sweet.

We did have a rocky patch earlier this year and I think he's still reacting to that

[Lotsgoingon]

I hate to say what people say on tv: but why not say to him exactly what you just wrote?

You don't give away power by claiming what's good about the relationship and what you liked about the relationship. And you don't lose power by taking the initiative. Some people just get incredibly scared about taking a step to resolve a conflict ... Sometimes guilt blocks them from taking the step to reach out. (One way guilt sometimes backfires.) And maybe guys are worse on this point than women (a generalization I know, but hey, I think I know my people). 

That's a very powerful and affirming statement you made above. No way would he be defensive about the long paragraph ... and the long paragraph (really not very long, which is good) ... makes things safer to deal with the second paragraph. 

Just a thought. And if you wanna really work him, expand that statement of the positives in that first paragraph. Detail all the things you love about the relationship and him. One benefit of sharing that first paragraph, when I've done that, is it reminds ME of what I'm really feeling, it strengthens me and helps me feel more confident about then getting to the conflict we need to discuss. 

Good luck. I know: it sucks when we're in conflict with the people we love. And it doubly and triply hurts when someone we love goes out of touch. It's like we're cast out of a safe place to some horrible unfamiliar reality. We feel stranded and abandoned and confused that we no longer have closeness with someone we've relied on for closeness. It's downright disorienting and frightening.

Hang in there!

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Lotsgoingon

[Kyra]

28 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

I hate to say what people say on tv: but why not say to him exactly what you just wrote?

etc

Thanks! I don't know if I said already but he has now agreed to meet to talk, so we're over the first hurdle. I have taken on board your points earlier about speaking more positive and when I get to talk to him I will try your advice

[ExpatInItaly]

What was the rocky patch earlier in the year about?

[Kyra]

10 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

What was the rocky patch earlier in the year about?

I think I have covered enough of that.

 

Thanks everyone. I think we can finish this now

[ExpatInItaly]

2 hours ago, Kyra said:

I think I have covered enough of that.

You have? 

I must have missed it. I didn't see where you elaborated on this specific period in the relationship. 

[Wiseman2]

Blaming, grudges, contempt and resentment have a poor prognosis in a relationship.

Since it's gotten at least this bad, if not worse, just cut your losses and find some peace.

[dramafreezone]

On 6/9/2021 at 2:11 AM, elaine567 said:

Seems to me some men are very happy as long as women do not rock any boats and they comply.

You mean agreeableness?  Yes, I think most people like that quality in others.  You forget the part where a lot of woman actually like to be agreeable.  They're not being suppressed into that role.

[basil67]

4 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

You mean agreeableness?  Yes, I think most people like that quality in others.  You forget the part where a lot of woman actually like to be agreeable.  They're not being suppressed into that role.

And many men like to be agreeable too.  If a couple are both agreeable sorts, it doesn't mean they will never disagree, but it does mean they won't rock the boat over small stuff which is best let go.  This is my way of doing relationships.

[kendahke]

On 6/2/2021 at 5:13 AM, Kyra said:

Ah, no, most of the time we are extremely compatible and have a wonderful relationship

Then what was this fight over that caused him to set you adrift over a week ago? That doesn't sound "extremely compatible" to me.

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We have a history of misunderstandings - he says a thing and it says to me he doesn't care about me and I get upset. Within a few days or less he says that wasn't how he meant it, I misunderstood and he does care. So I believe him and forgive him and we go back to a fun and loving relationship.

That also doesn't sound like compatibility.

So this has been going on and on, and you've been doing this same dance over and over for a while now.  Maybe this is his interpretation of foreplay or something.  I don't see how a conversation--a serious "hey, dude... what's up?" kind of conversation has not been had long before now, if he keeps saying things like "he doesn't care about me".  You being upset doesn't phase him anymore--you clearly get over it enough to welcome him back over and over, so why should he stop?  All of this works for him.

Pro tip: no man who truly loves you, cares about you and esteems you highly lets you twist in the wind for well over a week without some cataclysmic event having happened to preclude him from doing so.

On 6/10/2021 at 1:05 AM, Kyra said:

I think we can finish this now

I have questions...

Edited June 12, 2021 by kendahke

[Wiseman2]

If two people are playing tug-of-war and one lets go, the other falls on their butt. It's that simple.👘

[Kyra]

On 6/13/2021 at 9:28 AM, kendahke said:

I have questions...

Sorry to leave you hanging with your questions unanswered but there's no benefit to me to continue this thread. 

The question and point of this thread was to glean advice on how to get a partner to talk, to respond or anything when he's refusing to engage in any dialogue. I think only one person made any attempt to address the actual question. Opinions on who's to blame or whether I should dump him or not are not what I was looking for. I see my first post didn't make this clear at all, and then I got caught up in all the questions.

Anyway, he has agreed to meet to talk, so now it's just a matter of waiting to hear his side. 

Thanks everyone for participating! 

[Lotsgoingon]

Good luck with the meeting. 

[Kyra]

7 hours ago, Lotsgoingon said:

Good luck with the meeting. 

Thanks!