It doesn't make sense to me

[pepperbird2]

[]

Do you find it odd that someone in an affair with a married person expresses sympathy (not empathy- that's not really possible) for the BS? How can one say that, while at the same time, helping to be the one that causes them to hurt?

It ben a ong time, but every so often my spouse's affair will come to mind. The OW my husband cheated with said that to me, but quite frankly, I think it was more to make herself feel better, sort of an "I feel bed, so therefore, I am not a bad person. Besides,  look at how hard this has been for me!!!!". I get saying that to herself, but why try to convince me of that? Why would she even think I cared? Why not just be honest and admit she didn't care. Why try and make me  feel bad for her?

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed directive and moved post to OM/OW

[Starswillshine]

The OW in my case kept telling me she told him to try to save his marriage when I was walking out the door. It seems all so hilarious to me after she tried so hard to split up our marriage. 

She also had some odd desire for me to not see her as a bad person. Even years later, "I cried for you. I hate what I have done. I am not a bad person." 2 weeks later after being ignore, "You're an ignorant cliche." Ha. 

Sometimes, you can't make sense of the mentally impaired people (and I believe the OW in our cases have some mental issues for sure). 

[mark clemson]

On 6/7/2021 at 11:42 AM, pepperbird2 said:

[]

Do you find it odd that someone in an affair with a married person expresses sympathy (not empathy- that's not really possible) for the BS? How can one say that, while at the same time, helping to be the one that causes them to hurt?

Respectfully, it seems like you are asking BS's a question that is better put to OM/OW.  You are essentially asking BS's opinions about what is going on in OM/OW's minds.

You're not likely to get an accurate response, just the impression BS's have, which is no doubt likely to be colored/clouded by their distress and views.

Whether or not you're happy with that inaccuracy is up to you I suppose, but it's what you're going to get. I could ask you (a BS) what an OM/OW "gets out of" an EMR emotionally, but you won't really know that, just your (perhaps reasonable) best guess.

Edited June 9, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Quoted post

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, pepperbird2 said:

I get saying that to herself, but why try to convince me of that? Why would she even think I cared? Why not just be honest and admit she didn't care. Why try and make me  feel bad for her?

Well I guess they play the victim convincing themselves that they were taken advantage of and that should excuse the fact that they lusted after and had sex with a MM.  Now that he's gone they feel like a BS but none of the benefits.

[Pumpernickel]

I’ve been both - betrayed fiancée & AP. 
Had my fiancé’s mistress contacted me full of regret, I wouldn’t have bought it. I would’ve thought she’s trying to stay enmeshed in the triangle somehow. Stay relevant, you know? 
As an AP myself, I would’ve never contacted the BW. Even though everything blew up and ended in somewhat of a mess, I would’ve never contacted her. Not then, not now. I didn’t feel like it was my place. I also didn’t feel that I did something wrong necessarily. She was HIS wife, not mine. If he chooses to go behind her back, who am I to apologize? That should be his job. All I can do is “work with” the information he gave me, and that wasn’t necessarily an endorsement of how great their marriage was. And that means that had I apologized to her – it would’ve been very disingenuous 

[BaileyB]

To me, it’s an example of cognitive dissonance. It’s like, the mother who says she loves her children and it s a good mother, but then engages in questionable relationships with questionable men that put her children at risk. The father who says he is a good father and he “stays for the kids,” but then engages in an extramarital affair that if discovered, threatens the very security of the thing for which he says he is sacrificing to save. The woman who says she is going to make healthier meals and lose weight, only to then make fried chicken and have a Diet Coke.

There is a woman who posted on another thread, she said she felt sorry for the wife because she has been in a marriage for the last 15 years with a man who was in love with his affair partner (the poster). She actually said she felt sorry for the woman because she had “wasted her youth.” And yet, has that poster not also wasted 15 years of her youth waiting for this man to divorce his wife? Could they not have divorced and settled into an agreement where both parents shared custody of the children? Could the affair partners have not then had a legitimate relationship and lived an authentic life together? What if he doesn’t divorce his wife and leave his family to be with her - then she has really wasted 15 years of her youth! That’s too difficult to accept, so she projects onto the wife - have empathy for the wife, she has wasted her youth in a marriage with a cheating husband who doesn’t love her. 

We tell ourselves all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons. 

Edited June 7, 2021 by BaileyB

[S2B]

Because they are only sorry after they get caught.

it’s to relieve their own conscience.

if they honestly thought that - they wouldn’t have done their actions. No conscience… just selfish.

[Xerad]

It is odd. You don't hear about male APs expressing regret they had to boink a BH's wife.

[heartwhole2]

I'm just generalizing here, and of course every situation is different (though many situations follow similar patterns . . . oh, we are not as unique as we think we are!). 

Empathy is a skill that requires practice. Some people are born helpers, but they may be driven by how the act of helping makes them feel as much as by concern for the person helped. To care about someone for their own sake is a choice backed up by action, not a feeling. If we are fairly self-aware, enlightened people, then our feelings and our actions usually match up, and hence we can train ourselves to be empathetic. If we suffer from poor upbringings, traumas, mental health battles, etc., then we more often have feelings and actions at odds. Of course, we're all human, and we toggle back and forth between our own extremes. But in general, I suspect that the vast majority of people who have affairs are lacking in many of the hallmarks of adulting: self-awareness, self-love, conflict resolution skills, anger management, impulse control, empathy, etc.

So that brings me to the original question. How can an OW say that she feels bad for the BW while making choices that help harm the BW? Because she's struggling. She doesn't know how to love herself, let alone another person. She tries to make her feelings of worthlessness go away with the thrill of being desired by a taken man. She so badly wants someone to love her that she's willing to cause harm to make it happen. When the house of cards crumble and the MM is lost, she wants to claim any shred of decency for herself that she can. After all, she bet big and lost. 

I hope that anyone who genuinely wants to be a decent person will process their choice to have an affair and realize how far astray they went. But we know how hard this is for a WS who has the motivation of not wanting their BS to leave. What motivation does an OW have to be introspective? What skills will she fall back on when she feels overwhelmed by shame and self-hate? It's a lot to expect, given what we know of her. 

I have this vivid memory of DDay when my husband was explaining to me that he and the OW had feelings for each other, like I was some third wheel raining on their parade. His tone was condescending, like pat, pat, you poor reject untouched by a glorious love story like ours. But thanks to chance, I had a very stable and loving upbringing and I haven't had to struggle to love myself. So I was just like, "Huh? I don't get it. Why would a single woman who could date an available man want to have a secret relationship with you?" And I could see the wheels turning in his brain as the secret world they'd build together was exposed to reality. And he sputtered out, "Well, um, she had a boyfriend who wasn't nice to her and she has really low self-esteem." And then I said, "I still don't get it. Why would you want to have a secret relationship with someone with really low self-esteem?" Healthy people don't invite unhealthy things into their lives. So if you're pretty healthy yourself, you just really can't understand how a lack of self-love and confidence impact you. If you don't compartmentalize, you can't understand a compartmentalizer. If you don't engage in wishful thinking, you can't understand what that's like. 

I believe that plenty of APs see the affair as a wake-up call and do serious work on themselves. But a person with real remorse for causing another harm would not seek to vindicate themselves as you described. 

[torn_heart]

3 hours ago, Xerad said:

It is odd. You don't hear about male APs expressing regret they had to boink a BH's wife.

This is interesting.

I was an AP of a girl in multiple of her relationships. I never really felt sorry for the guys.

Today, I just finishen an affair and my OW always felt bad with my gf, she didn't want to chat when I was with her, shich for me it was OK. Buuuut, when we developed feelings for each other my OW started to feel jelous of my GF and started some erratic behavior. 

So, my guess is that it depends on how strong are the feelings between the AP, a lot of love might turn into hate towards the BH/BW

[BaileyB]

3 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

Healthy people don't invite unhealthy things into their lives.

This is the answer to a lot of questions on this site. 

[IslandSanctuary]

[]
She said it because she knew it would get to you. And here it is, getting to you. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Group berating

[basil67]

 

On 6/8/2021 at 4:42 AM, pepperbird2 said:

it's more than I don't understand the logic.

 Looking for logic in all actions of humans is a fools errand.   I don't know any human who is 100% logical.  

Rather than trying to understand something which won't ever be understood, I've always found it better to chalk it up to "It is what it is"

[MsJayne]

5 hours ago, Xerad said:

It is odd. You don't hear about male APs expressing regret they had to boink a BH's wife.

Valid point. Perhaps because men are less likely to fake emotions than women are, and are more likely to own their bad behaviour rather than seek ways to minimise it by pretending to feel bad. Women tend to seek social approval more than men, so grovelling to their AP's wife is part of the scenario of being found out. "Oh no, I'm so sorry, I thought your marriage was over and we can't help who we fall for", sounds less offensive than, "I couldn't care less about you or your kids, I felt like banging your husband". 

[NYAG]

On 6/7/2021 at 8:49 PM, stillafool said:

Well I guess they play the victim convincing themselves that they were taken advantage of and that should excuse the fact that they lusted after and had sex with a MM.  Now that he's gone they feel like a BS but none of the benefits.

You are making presumptions. Not everyone thinks like that. I have been / am an OW. I have never thought of myself as a victim, I was never taken advantage of. I am a grown adult without a complicated personal life who made a deliberate choice. I have only once been approached by an MM. On the other occasions I approached them through dating sites that made it clear they were married and looking elsewhere but had no intention of leaving their partners which is fine by me. These were arrangements. I always ended them and always went NC and never saw or heard from them again. I never go back and I never do 'just friends'.

I have no interest in the BS and know very little about them. I am not jealous, I don't want to know anything about them. It's none of my business. None of my MM's have been one off's or betrayal virgins. I was always just another in a line of OWs and there will be others after me. I am not looking for a relationship beyond what I can handle, which is part time. I like my independence and my freedom. I don't want the MMs to leave their partners for me and I don't want them to fall in love with me and vice versa. Neither has ever happened.

[Starswillshine]

45 minutes ago, NYAG said:

You are making presumptions. Not everyone thinks like that. I have been / am an OW. I have never thought of myself as a victim, I was never taken advantage of. I am a grown adult without a complicated personal life who made a deliberate choice. I have only once been approached by an MM. On the other occasions I approached them through dating sites that made it clear they were married and looking elsewhere but had no intention of leaving their partners which is fine by me. These were arrangements. I always ended them and always went NC and never saw or heard from them again. I never go back and I never do 'just friends'.

I have no interest in the BS and know very little about them. I am not jealous, I don't want to know anything about them. It's none of my business. None of my MM's have been one off's or betrayal virgins. I was always just another in a line of OWs and there will be others after me. I am not looking for a relationship beyond what I can handle, which is part time. I like my independence and my freedom. I don't want the MMs to leave their partners for me and I don't want them to fall in love with me and vice versa. Neither has ever happened.

You are not the sort that the OP was talking about and this who stillafool was referring to. This is about the ones who contact the BS with all their sobs and "sorrys." 

[NYAG]

1 hour ago, Starswillshine said:

You are not the sort that the OP was talking about and this who stillafool was referring to. This is about the ones who contact the BS with all their sobs and "sorrys." 

Fair enough. I miss understood. Apologies.

[pepperbird2]

17 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

Empathy is a skill that requires practice. Some people are born helpers, but they may be driven by how the act of helping makes them feel as much as by concern for the person helped.
 

This makes a lot of sense.
I'm a "helper" or "fixer". I want everyone to be happy and help them if I can. That sounds like I'm giving myself a pat on the back, but I'm not.
That desire to help is driven by the benefits I get from it. It's just as much about me as the people I want to help.
 

[heartwhole2]

13 hours ago, MsJayne said:

Valid point. Perhaps because men are less likely to fake emotions than women are, and are more likely to own their bad behaviour rather than seek ways to minimise it by pretending to feel bad. Women tend to seek social approval more than men, so grovelling to their AP's wife is part of the scenario of being found out. "Oh no, I'm so sorry, I thought your marriage was over and we can't help who we fall for", sounds less offensive than, "I couldn't care less about you or your kids, I felt like banging your husband". 

I think men are let off the hook for caring about harming others culturally, but I don't think that means that male humans simply don't care about others. People don't often feel guilty about things that aren't considered sins by others. It really is silly that women are expected to keep men faithful for other women while "boys will be boys." Thankfully we are moving towards more personal accountability and fewer double standards.

[PhoenixRising8]

On 6/7/2021 at 2:42 PM, pepperbird2 said:

Do you find it odd that someone in an affair with a married person expresses sympathy (not empathy- that's not really possible) for the BS? How can one say that, while at the same time, helping to be the one that causes them to hurt?

I spoke to my x-MM's BS (and the OOW) after she (BS) chucked him out AND I ended it during round 2.  She chucked him out when she found out about OOW.  I had already been out of the equation for almost a year.  In the meantime, he came to me and said, 'see I told you I just needed some time and I would leave'.  He failed to mention it was BS' choice or the OOW.  It lasted just a few weeks before I ended it.  When I ended it, I contacted both BS & OOW so they knew the truth.  I did have true empathy and sympathy for them, particularly BS and I felt she had a right to know so he couldn't continue to bamboozle her. By that time, I had done plenty of introspection and therapy, understood my choices, (exit/revenge A) and was seeing him for what he truly was and not what he presented.  I also let the OOW know so she could make an informed choice.  Last I knew, she was trying to work it out with him lol.

Edited June 9, 2021 by PhoenixRising8

[heartwhole2]

59 minutes ago, PhoenixRising8 said:

I spoke to my x-MM's BS (and the OOW) after she (BS) chucked him out AND I ended it during round 2.  She chucked him out when she found out about OOW.  I had already been out of the equation for almost a year.  In the meantime, he came to me and said, 'see I told you I just needed some time and I would leave'.  He failed to mention it was BS' choice or the OOW.  It lasted just a few weeks before I ended it.  When I ended it, I contacted both BS & OOW so they knew the truth.  I did have true empathy and sympathy for them, particularly BS and I felt she had a right to know so he couldn't continue to bamboozle her. By that time, I had done plenty of introspection and therapy, understood my choices, (exit/revenge A) and was seeing him for what he truly was and not what he presented.  I also let the OOW know so she could make an informed choice.  Last I knew, she was trying to work it out with him lol.

I think it's key here that you were reaching out to provide information relevant to their health and well-being, rather than to offer an apology designed on some level to make yourself feel better.

[PhoenixRising8]

2 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

I think it's key here that you were reaching out to provide information relevant to their health and well-being, rather than to offer an apology designed on some level to make yourself feel better.

I did offer very sincere apologies, particularly to BS.  My behaviour during part 1 was out of character for me.  I have lived my entire life authentically and with integrity.  By the time part 2 came to pass, I had dealt with a lot of what led to the affair and I was appalled at myself.  Another year out and I still can't think about it without being disgusted by him, but also my choices.

[BaileyB]

10 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

I think it's key here that you were reaching out to provide information relevant to their health and well-being, rather than to offer an apology designed on some level to make yourself feel better.

Indeed. Intention is important.

[Starswillshine]

What i experienced was something like this:

OW: you're a fake. You're whole world you present is a fake. I feel sorry for you. I am sorry I hurt you. I am a good person. Why can't you just forgive me. <insert all the yelling and threats and insults thrown at me> i said I was sorry.... 

It is quite comical that after all they (WS and AP) have done, they expect you to just forgive them and be best friends or something. OW was a no one to me, she was inconsequential... I did not care how she felt and it felt like assault to constantly be told about her feelings. "I'm going to kill myself over what I have done." K? And.... 

[BaileyB]

^^^ The intention there was to hurt, to blame, to deflect, to perhaps (in her eyes) restore her own worth and possibly ease whatever guilt she was feeling. In truth, this a hot mess and it’s all about her - there is nothing said in this message that should in any way be meaningful to you on your journey to healing and making a decision about your marriage (assuming it was said before you decided to leave). There was no good or honest intention here and as such, I would have completely dismissed it - as you did.