It doesn't make sense to me

[elaine567]

2 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Someone who is not emotionally stable. 

It seems to me some emotionally stable women enter into affairs and the whole situation causes them to become emotionally unstable...
But there may be a case for saying affairs tend to attract those who are for some reason are in a particularly unstable period of their life.
They seek validation from sources i.e. married/attached men that had their mindset been healthier, they would have passed on.

[pepperbird2]

10 hours ago, elaine567 said:

I would guess that her reactions were based on what she was or wasn't getting from your husband at the time.
One day cloud nine, "He loves me, we can be together long term", so she can afford to be all magnanimous and friendly to you because he was giving her attention and giving her hope. 
It was all going to work out fine. Being friends with the ex(i.e. you) was then the sensible thing to do for all concerned.
Next day she hated you, as he was ignoring her or for some reason the hope was gone, sending her into the depths of despair.
Then another ray of hope, another deep depression and the cycle continues.

Yes she is all over the place, but she doesn't exist in a vacuum, I would look at the part your husband really played in her "mood swings".

If you get to that point after a three week ( start to finish) relationship, you have issues already.
If she had taken her angst out on my husband I would have been a-okay with that, but for whatever reason, it was me. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for that. If, as we are told, the BS's emotional, feelings and well being get no consideration when deciding to enter an affair, then blaming the BS when it ends is just plain childish.
 

[pepperbird2]

15 hours ago, BaileyB said:

Good points made above. Yes, there are two sides to every story but perception becomes reality in some cases. And, when one has a personal agenda that tends to cloud the situation even more…

Believe it or not, I wasn’t actually trying to sympathize with the BS as much as I was trying to present an alternate perspective. It’s funny how the same thing can look completely different depending which side of the street you stand. One person’s “wasted time” is another person’s “daily family life.”

This is so true.
It's very easy, for an outside looking in, to come to conclusions about someone else;s relationship. If those views are propped up by a WS running down the betrayed husband/wife, it's easy to see how an ow/om can really believe the BS is hell on wheels.

 

[glows]

I can't believe you went through something like this and hopefully she is blocked and your husband and everyone close to you has nothing to do with her. 

You are far too kind, Pepperbird.

[Poppy47]

17 hours ago, DKT3 said:

This is false...how you treat people is black and white. Right and wrong can be a grey area....cheating is never a grey area its always black. This way of thinking is really an attempt to not hold yourself accountable for your actions.  My wife treats me poorly,  doesn't give me the amount of sex I think I deserve so its a green light to grab another woman...its not my fault its a grey area...worse yet she finds out and now she treats me even worse and give me no sex...its not my fault time to grab another other woman....at what point does my poor coping skills play a part in this whole thing? Or can I continue to blame my devil of a wife?

I'm sorry your wife was treating you poorly DKT. I don't know what you should do.

Poppy.

[spiritedaway2003]

34 minutes ago, Poppy47 said:

I'm sorry your wife was treating you poorly DKT. I don't know what you should do.

Poppy.

I don’t think he was saying that his wife treats him poorly. He is simply using an example to illustrate that it is a slippery slope.  If someone treats you in a way that you don’t deserve or want, does that then give you the “gray” area to justify other actions? In the case of relationships, the right to cheat on a partner, etc.

Edited June 15, 2021 by spiritedaway2003

[mark clemson]

23 hours ago, Poppy47 said:

Nothing is black and white or transparent.... that's all we know.

4 hours ago, spiritedaway2003 said:

If someone treats you in a way that you don’t deserve or want, does that then give you the “gray” area to justify other actions? In the case of relationships, the right to cheat on a partner, etc.

I'm not sure about "justification" but as I see it, the grey area (such as it is) comes into play when you weigh cheating against the actual available alternatives:

- Work on the marriage (a better choice, certainly) but IF you've tried that:

- Stay put/stay unhappy (unfair to you; variably unfair to others depending on how you handle the situation e.g. alienated from spouse and kids pick up on it, become a workaholic, etc., etc.)

- Divorce (unfair to spouse, if they want to stay married; unfair to kids if they are happy in the family structure, emotionally destructive to all involved; financially destructive to ALL involved (don't kid yourself it's otherwise); 100% chance of ending the marriage)

- Ask to open the marriage (unfair to spouse, not likely to be accepted, likely to end in divorce (see above) if not handled properly AND sincerely agreed to by spouse)

- Cheat (you get to "cake eat"; unfair to spouse; variably unfair to kids depending on situation; MAY be emotionally destructive to some or all involved but degree will vary widely; MAY be minimally destructive if handled well and undiscovered; MAY result in divorce (see above); MAY result in a "weak" reconciliation/continuation of unhappy marriage; may result in a solid reconciliation that improves the marriage (end result similar to "working on the marriage") )

Cheating is inherently unethical and an honest divorce is viewed as less unethical generally in modern Western culture. However, IMO once you get past "work on the marriage" ALL the choices are in fact a mixed bag and that is where the shades of grey are.

Edited June 16, 2021 by mark clemson

[DKT3]

23 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I'm not sure about "justification" but as I see it, the grey area (such as it is) comes into play when you weigh cheating against the actual available alternatives:

- Work on the marriage (a better choice, certainly) but IF you've tried that:

- Stay put/stay unhappy (unfair to you; variably unfair to others depending on how you handle the situation e.g. alienated from spouse and kids pick up on it, become a workaholic, etc., etc.)

- Divorce (unfair to spouse, if they want to stay married; unfair to kids if they are happy in the family structure, emotionally destructive to all involved; financially destructive to ALL involved (don't kid yourself it's otherwise); 100% chance of ending the marriage)

- Ask to open the marriage (unfair to spouse, not likely to be accepted, likely to end in divorce (see above) if not handled properly AND sincerely agreed to by spouse)

- Cheat (you get to "cake eat"; unfair to spouse; variably unfair to kids depending on situation; MAY be emotionally destructive to some or all involved but degree will vary widely; MAY be minimally destructive if handled well and undiscovered; MAY result in divorce (see above); MAY result in a "weak" reconciliation/continuation of unhappy marriage; may result in a solid reconciliation that improves the marriage (end result similar to "working on the marriage") )

Cheating is inherently unethical and an honest divorce is viewed as less unethical generally in modern Western culture. However, IMO once you get past "work on the marriage" ALL the choices are in fact a mixed bag and that is where the shades of grey are.

Making a decision isn't always easy, but not wanting to do what you know needs to be done doesn't make things grey. Its still black and white. Divorce, while it can be unfair is always a better choice than cheating.  Cheating will most likely just add more pain and confusion and you will likely end up divorced anyway. 

[mark clemson]

^^ I respectfully disagree @DKT3 and have given the reasons why in my previous post. You're entitled to your views, and I have mine. The "look the other way" marriages that some people engage in AND the solid reconciliations that occur with reasonable frequency are both proof that divorce isn't always a better choice. The bottom line though is that, despite the intensity/rigidity of your personal beliefs, you simply can't claim to speak for everyone.

[DKT3]

51 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

^^ I respectfully disagree @DKT3 and have given the reasons why in my previous post. You're entitled to your views, and I have mine. The "look the other way" marriages that some people engage in AND the solid reconciliations that occur with reasonable frequency are both proof that divorce isn't always a better choice. The bottom line though is that, despite the intensity/rigidity of your personal beliefs, you simply can't claim to speak for everyone.

I'm only rigid in the sense that I believe everyone should have a say in the type of relationship they are in. Look the other way requires that the person are, in fact, informed that they are looking the other way. 

Otherwise its just plain ole cheating. 

Why people attempt to make it more then it is, is a mystery. 

It would be much simpler to say, I cheated, I dont want to get divorced so I'm not telling my spouse.

OR

My marriage was good, we had the normal ups and downs but I decided I wanted to try something else. 

Too much over analyzing and making simple complex.

[pepperbird2]

16 hours ago, glows said:

I can't believe you went through something like this and hopefully she is blocked and your husband and everyone close to you has nothing to do with her. 

You are far too kind, Pepperbird.

Thank you, but it's not kindness. She's personality disordered ( diagnosed BPD, at least from what she said) and from what I understand, that usually develops due to extreme trauma as a child. I've gotten to a place now where I feel bad for her. We live in a very small community where everyone knows everyone, and from what I understand,  she's married now, has kids of her own. Her husband cheats on her a lot. Knowing how much that hurts, I feel bad for her. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

[pepperbird2]

9 hours ago, mark clemson said:

I'm not sure about "justification" but as I see it, the grey area (such as it is) comes into play when you weigh cheating against the actual available alternatives:

- Work on the marriage (a better choice, certainly) but IF you've tried that:

- Stay put/stay unhappy (unfair to you; variably unfair to others depending on how you handle the situation e.g. alienated from spouse and kids pick up on it, become a workaholic, etc., etc.)

- Divorce (unfair to spouse, if they want to stay married; unfair to kids if they are happy in the family structure, emotionally destructive to all involved; financially destructive to ALL involved (don't kid yourself it's otherwise); 100% chance of ending the marriage)

- Ask to open the marriage (unfair to spouse, not likely to be accepted, likely to end in divorce (see above) if not handled properly AND sincerely agreed to by spouse)

- Cheat (you get to "cake eat"; unfair to spouse; variably unfair to kids depending on situation; MAY be emotionally destructive to some or all involved but degree will vary widely; MAY be minimally destructive if handled well and undiscovered; MAY result in divorce (see above); MAY result in a "weak" reconciliation/continuation of unhappy marriage; may result in a solid reconciliation that improves the marriage (end result similar to "working on the marriage") )

Cheating is inherently unethical and an honest divorce is viewed as less unethical generally in modern Western culture. However, IMO once you get past "work on the marriage" ALL the choices are in fact a mixed bag and that is where the shades of grey are.

All I can say to this is what on earth makes a person so arrogant, so self centred, so huberistic that they feel they are in a position to make this sort of choice for other people? It also assumes the WS has some sort of self awareness about why they are doing what they are doing, and they sit down and really think all this out before they decide to cheat?

I'm not saying this doesn't happen, but the majority of affairs ( if we accept the words of WS as truth), affairs are far more often spur of the moment things- how many say "I never meant for this to happen, it just did". There's an opportunity, and it's acted on.

[BaileyB]

10 hours ago, mark clemson said:

once you get past "work on the marriage" ALL the choices are in fact a mixed bag and that is where the shades of grey are.

Not so much shades of grey as different choices with different consequences. 

Let’s be fair, open marriage,  while much discussed on this site, is pretty rare in its truest sense and not usually an option for couples where one person wants to wander and the other spouse thinks they have chosen a monogamous relationship.

Which leaves stay in an unhappy marriage, divorce, or cheat. Each of those choices has a different cost and a different consequence. No need for justification because none are better or worse than another. Just different decisions, each requiring a different cost and with different consequences for the individual and the family. 

But we digress… sorry Pepperbird. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by BaileyB

[Starswillshine]

On 6/14/2021 at 8:15 PM, mark clemson said:

This person clearly wasn't (isn't) thinking straight if they are somehow trying to make you an acquaintance while pulling all the other stuff you have described. My guess would be some sort of mental health issue.

Definitely some mental health issues at play with this woman. I am just grateful we live multiple hours plane ride away and that she does not have much free money to spend on a plane ticket. I mean she's in her 30s and living with her mommy and daddy because her married boyfriend doesn't want to be with her.... 5 years later. 

[BaileyB]

3 hours ago, BaileyB said:

No need for justification because none are better or worse than another.

Rereading this, and wanted to clarify - cheating is obviously not a good option. 

None are great options. My point being, each have their own cost and consequence. If one acts with integrity and accountability, they will know this and accept the responsibility for whatever decision they make. Without need for justifications. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by BaileyB

[mark clemson]

3 hours ago, BaileyB said:

 different choices with different consequences.

Yes, that is more or less how I see it as well and thank you for your post. Cheating is never an ethical option; it can perhaps be "good" in other ways (along with the "bad" it will carry), but that will very much be in the eye of the beholder and how they assess things.

Edited June 16, 2021 by mark clemson

[mark clemson]

11 hours ago, DKT3 said:

its just plain ole cheating.

Too much over analyzing and making simple complex.

To be fair I never said it wasn't just plain cheating. The analyzing and complexity only comes into play when realistically weighing cheating against the other options. To my mind that IS the "shades of grey" discussion.

I'm not sure it makes too much sense to delve too far into this to avoid a T/J. As I said, you're of course entitled to your view. If you'd like to start a thread on they whys/wherefores I'd probably contribute to it.

[BaileyB]

7 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

it can perhaps be "good" in other ways

I disagree. But, that is a discussion for another day.

[mark clemson]

4 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

All I can say to this is what on earth makes a person so arrogant, so self centred, so huberistic that they feel they are in a position to make this sort of choice for other people?

While I have no doubt these adjectives apply to SOME cheaters, I really don't think they apply to all of them. Also, to be fair, there are no doubt plenty of people who fit these descriptions who happen to be loyal partners but show these qualities in other ways.

A unilateral divorce to a happy partner is a BIG and potentially very destructive choice made for another person. Unlike cheating divorce is guaranteed to have major impacts. Do those choosing to divorce share these qualities as well?

To me the above feels like both a very broad-brush view of cheaters and a double-standard. That's just my view.

Edited June 16, 2021 by mark clemson

[torn_heart]

8 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

All I can say to this is what on earth makes a person so arrogant, so self centred, so huberistic that they feel they are in a position to make this sort of choice for other people? It also assumes the WS has some sort of self awareness about why they are doing what they are doing, and they sit down and really think all this out before they decide to cheat?

I'm not saying this doesn't happen, but the majority of affairs ( if we accept the words of WS as truth), affairs are far more often spur of the moment things- how many say "I never meant for this to happen, it just did". There's an opportunity, and it's acted on.

I think you have read my story. 

Something that happened to me is that I've never ended a relationship where things are OK, and OK meaning that we love each other, we don't fight, we see ouselves together in the future, but at the moment the relationship is just plain "boring". When I've (or they've) ended a relationship normally is because of things that you get tired of handling, that get you mad, and you can't be with that person anymore. 

Other thing, my therapist told me literally "you affair made your relationship with you gf last this long", so if I didn't get emotionally involved maybe things would even have helped my realtionship with my gf, since I got emotionally involved it's the reason why I'm in this hell right now.