Toxic positivity

[Prudence V]

Just taking the temperature on people’s views on this. 
 

I have several friends who have chronic health conditions, disabilities, or very challenging circumstances. Many of them have stopped posting about their challenges on SM because of “toxic positivity” responses - I’m sure you know the kind of thing, about “looking on the bright side”, “not dwelling on misery”, etc. As though they can just mindset themselves into a rose-tinted world where everything is easy. 
 

My view is, no one should have to self-censor in this way, and if people are insensitive enough to comment on your FB post telling you to think yourself better from your disability or belittling your experience of racism because their ethnicity has never exposed them to racism, etc, you’re better off muting/blocking them. I’m sure Andi has tried to “walk more like a man” so he doesn’t get beaten up for “being gay” and Glen has used positive thinking to move the baggage stored in the wheelchair space on the train, and I know Linzi has tried thinking herself out of her bipolar many times… but sometimes what people need is an acknowledgement that struggles are real. 
 

(I’m not talking about posts on these boards - obvs when someone posts here, they’re inviting replies from all kinds of people with all kinds of perspectives, and as long as someone posts within the guidelines, any response is valid. I’m speaking about the kind of interactions people have in more controlled spaces, like, among FB friends, or IRL, where the people you’re sharing with are there because there is some kind of relationship beyond chance.)

I’ve read responses on these boards over the years that IMV probably count as “toxic positivity”, so I’m sure there are people here who would disagree with my view, and maybe even some who would agree with me, but I’d be interested to hear from people who have a view on this (either way) what you feel about this, and why. 

[Happy Lemming]

15 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

Many of them have stopped posting about their challenges on SM because of “toxic positivity” responses - I’m sure you know the kind of thing, about “looking on the bright side”, “not dwelling on misery”, etc. As though they can just mindset themselves into a rose-tinted world where everything is easy.

 

I'm guessing that some people post the "look on the bright side" comments, as they really don't know what to say/write.  They want to acknowledge that particular social media post & the pain (the poster is in), but really don't have anything constructive to add.

[Alpacalia]

I think for the most part it's meant with good intentions but I can see how it's also a bit dismissive.

Sometimes words fail us.

[Happy Lemming]

Just now, Alpaca said:

Sometimes words fail us.

I agree... As an example, my mother has arthritis and has pain from time to time.  Instead of asking her "How is she doing??" or some sunshine/happiness/"look on the bright side comment", I've scoured the internet looking for homeopathic or over the counter creams/medicines to help her.

I've drop shipped (to her) many different items and I stumbled across one that seems to help a little bit more than the others.

I think (if we really care about the other person) we should go the extra mile, to assist them by suggesting something that might actually help vs. some flowery "tomorrow will be a better day" comment/post.

I imagine one could post/say "I wanted to acknowledge your post/statement. I don't have anything constructive to add, but I'm here and will listen, if you need to talk"

[Wiseman2]

Sometimes it's the price people pay for complaining too much.

[Uruktopi]

Optimism is good as one source amongst of stregth to DO about

While this and in my solely personal opinion, what comes from the so known as "positive psychology" and philosophical view is intrinsically toxic.  

Edited June 29, 2021 by Uruktopi

[d0nnivain]

What are the allegedly "toxic" posters supposed to say?  Too bad; I hope you die painfully?  

I get what you are saying, though.  People don't process other people's negative emotions well.  Sometimes an upset person just needs to cry or be upset.  Telling somebody to be positive sort of invalidates the feeling they are experiencing.  You have to go through the bad stuff to come out on the other side.  But it can be hard to know you can't fix what others are going through.  Also people like to think they are helping.  So the recipient has to take the positivity with a grain of salt in that the posters care enough to do . . . something, even if it was the wrong thing.  It's about meeting people where they are & accepting the love they offer you even when it's not in the form you want, which can be hard.   

After my parents died, certain things would regularly bring me to tears & I would openly weep.  That upset some folks.  I didn't care that I made them uncomfortable. I needed to express the emotion I was feeling:   grief.  Over the ensuing years many people told me that my public tears, not holding back,  helped them to learn to grieve & by crying in public I "gave them permission" to grieve their own losses when those happened.

Life isn't all sunshine & roses.  When it isn't sometimes we need people to listen.  

Alas social media is probably not the best forum for this.  When I see posts like that I tend to PM the person or call them if I have their number.  For example, the other day FB alerted me to the fact that it was somebody's birthday.  As is typical there were all these Happy Birthday messages on her page.  Problem is her son had just died from suicide 3 weeks earlier.  I'm sure those well-meaning well-wishers were like knives through her already broken heart.  I sent her a personal text that said something along the lines of "I'm sure this is the worst birthday ever but I hope she finds peace knowing her son in no longer in pain & that I wish I could give her what she really wants -- another hug from him & to hear his voice."  I told her to call me if she wanted to cry & she did.   Then she said she's staying off social media for a while because it hurts too much.  

 

[glows]

I don't have social media anymore - couldn't care less for the politics and dramatics. There seems to be too many misunderstandings that come from those platforms and a lack of enough different views. A large number of people are also uneducated or eschew too strongly to one view without being able to see different perspectives. Obviously if I feel this way and I lose interest in this type of platform I am not present. You don't have to be present on such platforms either or avoid certain groups on it if it aggravates you.

2 hours ago, Prudence V said:

to comment on your FB post telling you to think yourself better from your disability or belittling your experience of racism because their ethnicity has never exposed them to racism, etc, you’re better off muting/blocking them.

....

I’ve read responses on these boards over the years that IMV probably count as “toxic positivity”, so I’m sure there are people here who would disagree with my view, and maybe even some who would agree with me, but I’d be interested to hear from people who have a view on this (either way) what you feel about this, and why. 

I do take issue with this being a minority but do I want to perpetually be around other frustrated individuals all commiserating about the same issue? No. Life is too short for that. You can make a difference elsewhere or volunteer in your community. I'm saying you as in hypothetical you, not you personally. Anyone can make those choices that assist their better mental health or help others. I like the idea of doing rather than talking.

I don't believe in toxic positivity. Whatever we interpret as toxic comes from a lens built-in, what we see and perceive of the world. If someone is positive, they have the freedom to be just as you also have the freedom to explore your frustration or sadness about ignorance surrounding disability and racism. At the heart of this is likely autonomy and respect for someone else's positivity and the energy they bring to a situation. Most people have no idea that their comments are offensive, full of bigotry or racist. You can choose to live your life differently from them and lead by example and avoid groups that espouse hate or ignorance. Find some balance in all this.

[jspice]

Coming from mere acquaintances, it’s ok. I don’t over share on fb but if I’m in conversation with someone and it comes up that my cat died or whatever, it’s normal for them to say something “sunshiny “. 
 

If it’s a close friend and I really need to talk and they constantly tell me to look on the bright side without offering real support, I’m going to start withdrawing. 
It puts up a wall that indicates that person doesn’t want to be a real friend. Real friends want to be there for you like you are for them. 
A “At least your have your health” shows a lack of interest in what I’m going through. 

[Wiseman2]

5 hours ago, Alpaca said:

I think for the most part it's meant with good intentions but I can see how it's also a bit dismissive. Sometimes words fail us.

The glass is half full, they only hand out as much as you can handle, tomorrow's another day, it's a blessing in disguise and smile, have a wonderful day😊

Edited June 29, 2021 by Wiseman2

[mark clemson]

I guess if you put your troubles out on the internet for the world to react to, one needs to recognize that you're going to get some (presumably) well-intentioned but ham-handed responses. Comes with the territory I suppose. It's hard to read another's full situation and emotional state - some may be looking for attempts at "positive" solutions they can try, while others may be looking more for understanding/"commiseration". The responder won't necessarily know which it is or what the person's already tried and/or what their mindset is.

So, it can be easy to misread things I think if one isn't careful in analyzing what they're presented with (or even if they are). And a certain % of people are presumably simply doing what usually works - offering "cheer" and/or (attempts at) "helpful suggestions" when another seems down, without recognizing the full situation the other person is in.

[lana-banana]

People are almost never sharing their pain publicly because they need help brainstorming solutions. I think it's inconsiderate to give unsolicited "positive" advice, especially when you don't have that kind of relationship (and if you did have that kind of relationship, you'd be communicating over phone/text and not Facebook posts). If you can't even write a "*hug*" or something on a post where somebody is venting, move along. If someone is bothering you, mute them. But responding to stuff like depression or systemic oppression with "look on the bright side!" is useless at best and hurtful at worst.

[Allupinnit]

1 hour ago, lana-banana said:

People are almost never sharing their pain publicly because they need help brainstorming solutions. I think it's inconsiderate to give unsolicited "positive" advice, especially when you don't have that kind of relationship (and if you did have that kind of relationship, you'd be communicating over phone/text and not Facebook posts). If you can't even write a "*hug*" or something on a post where somebody is venting, move along. If someone is bothering you, mute them. But responding to stuff like depression or systemic oppression with "look on the bright side!" is useless at best and hurtful at worst.

I'm one of those people who struggle with the right words.  So now I just say "I'm so sorry."  

OT - Also, I'm one of those people who can bust up laughing at the absolute WORST time and it's not voluntary.  An old boss of mine once mentioned that his father had cancer and I couldn't believe that I almost started to laugh!  Apparently it's your brain's way of involuntarily breaking the tension.  Of course I didn't think it was funny!

Edited June 29, 2021 by Allupinnit

[Angelle]

2 hours ago, lana-banana said:

People are almost never sharing their pain publicly because they need help brainstorming solutions. I think it's inconsiderate to give unsolicited "positive" advice, especially when you don't have that kind of relationship (and if you did have that kind of relationship, you'd be communicating over phone/text and not Facebook posts). If you can't even write a "*hug*" or something on a post where somebody is venting, move along. If someone is bothering you, mute them. But responding to stuff like depression or systemic oppression with "look on the bright side!" is useless at best and hurtful at worst.

The one that always irks me, is "it could always be worse!" Yeah, I'm well aware of that, I've lived worse. Part of any anxiety/depression I experience, is knowing that something could get worse again. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Angelle

[lana-banana]

22 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

I'm one of those people who struggle with the right words.  So now I just say "I'm so sorry."  

It can be hard. But stuff like condolences, hugs, thinking of you, prayers/thoughts/best wishes, I'm sorry, let me know if you ever need anything, etc...there are a lot of ways to offer good thoughts that aren't dismissive.

When I was in the Middle East I learned the phrase "Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un" (lit. "we are all from Allah, and to Allah we return"), which is the standard phrase used in response to all sorts of bad news and also a reminder of divine wisdom. I am an atheist but I find the phrase really powerful. I wish we had a secular or English-language equivalent.

[basil67]

@lana-banana 's first line above just took the words from my mouth.  There are many ways to show you care without being dismissive.  

My personal favourite when it comes to toxic positivity is "God only gives us as much as we can handle"  😖   This makes me so angry.   Do they not know that there are people who have breakdowns, suicide, ruined lives or have to make the heartbreaking decision of putting a disabled loved one into care because they can't cope with the 24/7 demands. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by basil67

[MsJayne]

Hmm, it's one of my favourite current topics, and a very curly one. I find it really offensive when I hear someone trying to jolly along a person who's facing real life challenges, some sort of hardship or illness, but I find it equally offensive when someone who's facing those sort of challenges complains to the point that they're unpleasant and toxic to be around. I have a friend who has an ongoing allergy problem which is affecting his life very negatively and I can no longer stand him talking about it because I've been listening to him complaining for three years, and while I haven't run out of empathy or understanding, I've run out of patience and sympathy because he's milked it to death. He's extremely negative to be around and that's very draining. I look at it like this, I've known people in far worse situations than him who've been stoic and uncomplaining, and it's very easy to be supportive and empathetic towards them long term, but when someone constantly draws attention to their problems it's actually they who are creating the toxicity and others sometimes have to brush them off to maintain their own sense of well-being.  At the same time as saying that I also understand that when someone isn't getting enough empathy or understanding it can be that lack of support which actually makes them become bitter and plaintive, so, sometimes a bit of a vicious circle. In that regard I think a lot of it depends on the person who needs the support, but as a general concept, toxic positivity to me entails a dismissive attitude towards the negative experience being had by another person, a lack of empathy, a lack of understanding, and a lack of sensitivity, and can otherwise be summed up as stupidity. And there's a lot of Stupid around, it's waiting around every corner to jump out at you and put a little Toxic in your day.

[MsJayne]

5 minutes ago, basil67 said:

"God only gives us as much as we can handle" 

Grrr 😤 - Yes!!!  My response to this show of immense stupidity is to reply with something like , " Oh, yes, all those women who are murdered by their spouse in domestic violence incidents, that's just good old God dishing out a bit of a test to see how much they could handle."  Just beyond ignorant. 

[Angelle]

54 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

I'm one of those people who struggle with the right words.  So now I just say "I'm so sorry."  

OT - Also, I'm one of those people who can bust up laughing at the absolute WORST time and it's not voluntary.  An old boss of mine once mentioned that his father had cancer and I couldn't believe that I almost started to laugh!  Apparently it's your brain's way of involuntarily breaking the tension.  Of course I didn't think it was funny!

I do the same thing, at times. I remember when my mum would be asking who did something, and I would feel uncomfortable and burst out laughing, even though I hadn't done anything. She eventually learned that I would do that, when I hadn't done anything, and my sister would look slyly off to one side, and not say anything. It's happened occasionally, at the worst time, though. 

 

[Allupinnit]

21 minutes ago, basil67 said:

@lana-banana 's first line above just took the words from my mouth.  There are many ways to show you care without being dismissive.  

My personal favourite when it comes to toxic positivity is "God only gives us as much as we can handle"  😖   This makes me so angry.   Do they not know that there are people who have breakdowns, suicide, ruined lives or have to make the heartbreaking decision of putting a disabled loved one into care because they can't cope with the 24/7 demands. 

God literally never said that.  I mean, look what happened to Jesus.

[jspice]

23 minutes ago, MsJayne said:

Hmm, it's one of my favourite current topics, and a very curly one. I find it really offensive when I hear someone trying to jolly along a person who's facing real life challenges, some sort of hardship or illness, but I find it equally offensive when someone who's facing those sort of challenges complains to the point that they're unpleasant and toxic to be around. I have a friend who has an ongoing allergy problem which is affecting his life very negatively and I can no longer stand him talking about it because I've been listening to him complaining for three years, and while I haven't run out of empathy or understanding, I've run out of patience and sympathy because he's milked it to death. He's extremely negative to be around and that's very draining. I look at it like this, I've known people in far worse situations than him who've been stoic and uncomplaining, and it's very easy to be supportive and empathetic towards them long term, but when someone constantly draws attention to their problems it's actually they who are creating the toxicity and others sometimes have to brush them off to maintain their own sense of well-being.  At the same time as saying that I also understand that when someone isn't getting enough empathy or understanding it can be that lack of support which actually makes them become bitter and plaintive, so, sometimes a bit of a vicious circle. In that regard I think a lot of it depends on the person who needs the support, but as a general concept, toxic positivity to me entails a dismissive attitude towards the negative experience being had by another person, a lack of empathy, a lack of understanding, and a lack of sensitivity, and can otherwise be summed up as stupidity. And there's a lot of Stupid around, it's waiting around every corner to jump out at you and put a little Toxic in your day.

I have a side gig teaching online through a company and I’ve had this one student for two years. I have class with her every single day. She refuses to take a class with anyone else and if I’m sick and can’t work or have other appointments that can’t wait, she emails me to find out why I’m not there. 
She is so freaking self-centred and does nothing but complain about life. We all have hardships but I’m her daily therapy session because she’s not interested in actually learning anything. 
 

Her mother got really sick after her first Covid shot but she made the mum travel three hours to her city to watch her son. 
 

My mum had a stroke on Monday and she’s thousands of km away so I was really worried. I had to listen to this woman complain about her thumb she banged in the door.We talked about her thumb for two freaking days. 
 

She got a lot of “toxic positivity” from me because I couldn’t take her whining anymore and you have to draw the line somewhere. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by jspice

[Alpacalia]

4 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

The glass is half full, they only hand out as much as you can handle, tomorrow's another day, it's a blessing in disguise and smile, have a wonderful day😊

If you're feeling down, wipe that frown, take another looky and then have a cookie. 🍪

[basil67]

41 minutes ago, MsJayne said:

Grrr 😤 - Yes!!!  My response to this show of immense stupidity is to reply with something like , " Oh, yes, all those women who are murdered by their spouse in domestic violence incidents, that's just good old God dishing out a bit of a test to see how much they could handle."  Just beyond ignorant. 

I was listening to a thing on the radio the other day about counting one's blessings.   They said that it can be helpful to perhaps get a different perspective, but there are limits.   They told the story of this woman who'd been murdered by her husband.  In her bedside table, the police found a journal where she'd been counting her blessings.  So tragic.

[Uruktopi]

An optimist, a pessimist, and an engineer walk into a bar and there is a glass that is half filled.

The optimist says: “The glass is half full”

The pessimist says: “The glass is half empty”

The engineer says: “The glass is two times too big”

[Uruktopi]

The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds;
and the pessimist fears this is true.