We broke up over an ultimatum - I'm trying to talk to her but she won't talk right now - Looking for guidance

[DarkestbeforeDawn00]

3 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

Dude, you can call her again, but she seems serious: you're toast unless you commit to engagement in two years.

Why are you evading the issue? She doesn't want to talk until you say "yes" and "two years" and "engagement." 

She's not an idiot. There is nothing to talk about. She's smart: there is no negotiation here. She's smoking out your ambivalence and hesitation. Really smart. She doesn't want to waste any more time with you given you can't commit. 

She needs to start letting you go so she can move on to find someone who is interested in marriage. Dude, I was your position and dumped and trust me: you aren't ready to get married to this woman given how frightened and hesitant you are. Something in the relationship isn't working for you. So yes, she should dump you and you'll be fine moving on and you'll understand more about yourself. 

Well I think I may have mentioned this in an earlier comment.  I want to talk to her and reconcile the relationship and also because of how everything transpired through this, and her being the love of my life and who i want to spend the rest of my life with, that I want to talk to her about the timeline situation and work something out.  To not lose her, I would pursue her timeline for sure.  I'm not trying to be hesitant, just trying to talk to her.  I don't want to do all this via text message with her, I feel that would be very immature, but it may be the only option I have! 

[lonelyplanetmoon]

Unfortunately you both let this spiral out of control and I think for her it left a bad taste in her mouth if you know what I mean.

I think that this situation has made her think about things and she likely has lost feelings for you at this point.  Once the feelings are gone, it is really hard to get them back.  Even if you did reconcile, the relationship has changed.  It will never be the same.  You both crossed the line. That innocence has been lost.

once an ultimatum is on the table, there really is no going back.  I told my bf that if I ever have to give an ultimatum, then we are done.  We can’t control our partners, we can only control ourselves.  I would never tell him what to do.  I want him to chose to do things.  That is a more genuine way of living.  BUT I have a choice myself in accepting or not accepting.
 

i totally get where she is coming from.  You have been together long enough to know if marriage is what you want.  And if you want marriage then it won’t matter if it is tomorrow or 10 years.  But instead of communicating that, you pushed and sent a different message.  Remember what you say and what she hears can often be two totally different things.

Also, you are 35? Why wouldn’t you be ready to marry her like yesterday if you loved her that much?

Like I said though, there has been a pivot.  It won’t ever be the same again.

[Lotsgoingon]

You don't like everything about her or you would have already pushed engagement--with joy.   You're just out of touch with your ambivalence. 

This has NOTHING to do with being reserved. Nothing. 

Wanting to marry someone is galaxies away, light years away, black holes away ... from I want to get married in two years.

There's a huge gap between "I want to get married one day" and "Let's plan on marriage in 2 years" And she's smart to press for the deadline because you're afraid of the deadline, you see the deadline as a deadline as opposed to a wonderful goal. 

This woman is smart: she's not going to be fooled by "I like everything about her" and "I do want to marry her." Nope. She wants a date. Don't worry bro: you follow a long line of ambivalent guys. No shame. 

 

[DarkestbeforeDawn00]

1 minute ago, Lotsgoingon said:

You don't like everything about her or you would have already pushed engagement--with joy.   You're just out of touch with your ambivalence. 

This has NOTHING to do with being reserved. Nothing. 

Wanting to marry someone is galaxies away, light years away, black holes away ... from I want to get married in two years.

There's a huge gap between "I want to get married one day" and "Let's plan on marriage in 2 years" And she's smart to press for the deadline because you're afraid of the deadline, you see the deadline as a deadline as opposed to a wonderful goal. 

This woman is smart: she's not going to be fooled by "I like everything about her" and "I do want to marry her." Nope. She wants a date. Don't worry bro: you follow a long line of ambivalent guys. No shame. 

 

I've always been one to take things slow that's for sure.  I never told her "one day" i want to get married.  I told her that i can't guarantee 2 years but it may be two maybe 3 years.  I get that not giving a definitive answer could seem hesitant, but I assured her it's her I want to marry.  I understand her looking for a specific date, but if i told her that i don't know if i want to get married and have to think about it, then I would understand her giving up.

[Lotsgoingon]

I understand her looking for a specific date, but if i told her that i don't know if i want to get married and have to think about it, then I would understand her giving up.

There is ambivalence all over your words. Ambivalence over every one of those words. 

She was smart to give up, quite smart. And you can chill. You haven't done anything "wrong." You're just naive. Your ex had to go hard line because you're hesitant. She could stay with you more years and you might still be hesitant. 

 

 

[poppyfields]

17 minutes ago, DarkestbeforeDawn00 said:

To not lose her, I would pursue her timeline for sure.  

I guess I view this situation completely differently from the others, which is okay, but my final advice is do NOT ever acquiesce to a girlfriend's ultimatum because you fear losing her, you are in for a lifetime of more ultimatums and manipulations in the future if you do that.

In a sense I do agree with others in that after four years, what's the issue?  Why the wait?

Re my friend's now husband, he didn't feel he was financially in a place where he could offer much security and wanted to have all his "ducks in a row" before making such a huge commitment.

Once she stopped pressuring, his trust returned and he took the steps necessary to get all his ducks in a row and they were married a year later.

So if you could share with us why you are so ambivalent about it, or not ready, what's holding you back, it would be helpful.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by poppyfields

[DarkestbeforeDawn00]

8 minutes ago, lonelyplanetmoon said:

Unfortunately you both let this spiral out of control and I think for her it left a bad taste in her mouth if you know what I mean.

I think that this situation has made her think about things and she likely has lost feelings for you at this point.  Once the feelings are gone, it is really hard to get them back.  Even if you did reconcile, the relationship has changed.  It will never be the same.  You both crossed the line. That innocence has been lost.

once an ultimatum is on the table, there really is no going back.  I told my bf that if I ever have to give an ultimatum, then we are done.  We can’t control our partners, we can only control ourselves.  I would never tell him what to do.  I want him to chose to do things.  That is a more genuine way of living.  BUT I have a choice myself in accepting or not accepting.
 

i totally get where she is coming from.  You have been together long enough to know if marriage is what you want.  And if you want marriage then it won’t matter if it is tomorrow or 10 years.  But instead of communicating that, you pushed and sent a different message.  Remember what you say and what she hears can often be two totally different things.

Also, you are 35? Why wouldn’t you be ready to marry her like yesterday if you loved her that much?

Like I said though, there has been a pivot.  It won’t ever be the same again.

Thank you for the reply.  This has definitely spiraled out of control, I agree.  The ultimatum definitely hit me hard and blindsided me for sure.  I always let her know it was her I wanted to marry, I didn't agree to the ultimatum i understand that, but, I always provided the notion it was her i want to be with.  I mean yeah, I may of not taken the engagement/marriage thing as fast as others, but that doesn't mean it's not what i want.  I always would think about us getting married and the wedding.  Just really tough how this all played out

[LynneVicious]

I agree with the other posters in that if you’re not sure you want to marry her after 4 year’s, you have doubts. And that’s perfectly fine. It just doesn’t add up with her timeline. If you truly wanted to get married, you could go down to the courthouse next week and get it done. 

[lonelyplanetmoon]

1 minute ago, Lotsgoingon said:

I understand her looking for a specific date, but if i told her that i don't know if i want to get married and have to think about it, then I would understand her giving up.

There is ambivalence all over your words. Ambivalence over every one of those words. 

She was smart to give up, quite smart. And you can chill. You haven't done anything "wrong." You're just naive. Your ex had to go hard line because you're hesitant. She could stay with you more years and you might still be hesitant. 

 

 

I think what LGO is saying is that it is not what you say but how you say it.

‘There are the words ie “I want to marry you” and there is the message “I am not sure I want to marry you”

You say I want to marry you some day, she hears I am not sure I want to marry you.

Cest la vie. Live and learn.

[DarkestbeforeDawn00]

4 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

I understand her looking for a specific date, but if i told her that i don't know if i want to get married and have to think about it, then I would understand her giving up.

There is ambivalence all over your words. Ambivalence over every one of those words. 

She was smart to give up, quite smart. And you can chill. You haven't done anything "wrong." You're just naive. Your ex had to go hard line because you're hesitant. She could stay with you more years and you might still be hesitant. 

 

 

I'm not sure I see ambivalence there?  What i mean to say is, if i answered her ultimatum with "I don't know if i ever want to get married" or "I don't know if I want to marry you" then i could definitely see her leaving.  I always told her it was her i wanted to marry and spend the rest of my life with, just that I couldn't guarantee within 2 years of what she was looking for.  I did give her a timeline and that was what she couldn't accept.   

[Cookiesandough]

Ultimatums are like   a battle of wills where the person that cares more about salvaging the relationship can comprise on something and I think she’s basically telling you that’s not going to be her. It’s 2 years or not, no discussion … if you don’t want to bend to her will she doesn’t want to discuss lol

 

No one wants to go in circles on this when their mind is made up 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[lonelyplanetmoon]

1 minute ago, Cookiesandough said:

Ultimatums are like   a battle of wills where the person that cares more about salvaging the relationship comprises on something and I think she’s basically telling you that’s not going to be her. It’s 2 years or not, no discussion … if you don’t want to be in to her will she doesn’t want to discuss lol

Yep exactly.  Once you give in then what about the next ultimatum.  You have kids before she is xx old or you buy a house before xx years.

I understand where she is coming from but a relationship is about give and take.  You both need to learn to give in to each other in a way where it feels loving and not a competition.

[DarkestbeforeDawn00]

5 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

I guess I view this situation completely differently from the others, which is okay, but my final advice is do NOT ever acquiesce to a girlfriend's ultimatum, you are in for a lifetime of more ultimatums and manipulations in the future if you do that.

I realize you don't want to lose her, and in a sense I do agree with others in that after four years, what's the issue?  Why the wait?

Re my friend's now husband, he didn't feel he was financially in a place where he could offer much security and wanted to have all his "ducks in a row" before making such a huge commitment.

Once she stopped pressuring, his trust returned and he took the steps necessary to get all his ducks in a row and they were married a year later.

So if you could share with us why you are so ambivalent about it, or not ready, it would be helpful.

 

 

Yeah I do agree that giving in is not the right thing to do.  Obviously, I don't want to lose her (may of already happened) but to at least try and talk to her and let her know that I'd like to work on what our disagreement was so we could have a future together, I don't think that would be much of an issue.  The boat may have already sailed away, but it would be tough to look back and have regrets and not try. 

I'm being truthful and honest here.  I guess this is just a wake up call to how girls look at engagement and marriage? I didn't think this would go this far and everything get blown up but i was completey wrong.  I also guess I'm way too laid back with things.  Yeah, I mean finances are always a huge thing regarding anything, especially engagement and marriage.  But looking at it, I guess that's one thing that could be said in terms of not doing it tomorrow or right away.  I'm very frugal haha, so I like to save as much as possible.  I just thought we were happy together, and in due time I was going to ask the question no doubt about it.  I would day dream about our wedding all the time! But with reality and everything actually happening, i don't know, i guess with never being in this type of serious relationship before and understanding the next levels, it ending up biting me.  

[ShyViolet]

27 minutes ago, DarkestbeforeDawn00 said:

 I didn't want to rush into anything, I guess that could be a flaw of mine? 

Are you serious?  You didn't want to rush into anything?

You had been together 4 1/2 years and she was asking you to make a plan to become engaged in two more years.  You responded with ambivalence, indecision, hesitation, a lukewarm attitude, saying you'd rather wait 3-4 more years.  Again, I don't blame her for walking away.  She wants to be with someone who is excited to plan a future together and who is going to be decisive about it.  She became fed up with your hesitation and wavering, after already being together 4 1/2 years.  If you wanted to marry her, as you say you did, then what was the problem?  There is no reason to have a problem with the two-year timeframe, unless deep down you were indeed a bit unsure about marrying her.

[poppyfields]

11 minutes ago, lonelyplanetmoon said:

I think what LGO is saying is that it is not what you say but how you say it.

‘There are the words ie “I want to marry you” and there is the message “I am not sure I want to marry you”

You say I want to marry you some day, she hears I am not sure I want to marry you.

Bingo!  And therein lies the toxic polarity, she feels by you wanting to wait, you don't want to marry HER.  No matter how loud you scream, she won't hear it, all she hears is that you don't want to marry HER. 

Despite what I have been saying throughout this thread, I DO understand this too.

And the sad part is, IF you give in to her ultimatum, she will know that ultimatums and manipulations "work" to get her what she wants and she won't hesitate to use them whenever there is a conflict.

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by poppyfields

[basil67]

I don't know why ultimatums get such a bad rap.  In essence, an ultimatum is an expression of a deal breaker, and we're all allowed deal breakers.   If she wasn't going to give an ultimatum, look at the other options:  a) continue waiting and worrying that she's being strung along or b) she could just decide that enough is enough and end it without giving you a chance to fix things.

I think you said something about being surprised by the ultimatum coming out of the blue.  Thing is, this has been boiling inside her for a long time.  Women are taught that a man will only propose if she doesn't bother him about it, so likely she didn't bother you.  But when no proposal was forthcoming, she got to the point where she needed to make a decision about the future timing of her life.   I see much the same advice given here: Women are told to hold their tongue, but set an internal timeline for how long they are prepared to wait.

For what it's worth, I know women who've wanted to marry, have been with partners for 10 years without a proposal and ended up realising that it was never going to happen.  Her ultimatum has ensured that this won't happen to her.

[DarkestbeforeDawn00]

4 minutes ago, ShyViolet said:

Are you serious?  You didn't want to rush into anything?

You had been together 4 1/2 years and she was asking you to make a plan to become engaged in two more years.  You responded with ambivalence, indecision, hesitation, a lukewarm attitude, saying you'd rather wait 3-4 more years.  Again, I don't blame her for walking away.  She wants to be with someone who is excited to plan a future together and who is going to be decisive about it.  She became fed up with your hesitation and wavering, after already being together 4 1/2 years.  If you wanted to marry her, as you say you did, then what was the problem?  There is no reason to have a problem with the two-year timeframe, unless deep down you were indeed a bit unsure about marrying her.

Sorry, rush as in us just moving in together and starting our new careers to then push the engagement thing right away and rush into that as well. Yeah, I mean she wanted x and i didn't provide her exact timeframe.  I've always been absolutely excited to plan a future together, why do you think I moved in with her? We were building our lives together.  I had a problem with the ultimatum and her blindsiding me with it saying either give me a ring in 2 years or we are done.  

[DarkestbeforeDawn00]

7 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Bingo!  And therein lies the toxic polarity, she feels by you wanting to wait, you don't want to marry HER.  No matter how loud you scream, she won't hear it, all she hears is that you don't want to marry HER. 

Despite what I have been saying throughout this thread, I DO understand this too.

And the sad part is, IF you give in to her ultimatum, she will know that ultimatums and manipulations "work" to get her what she wants and she won't hesitate to use them whenever there is a conflict.

 

 

 

Yeah, this is a great point.  I guess I could've said whatever and she wouldn't hear it unless I accepted the ultimatum.  Also agree, that if I do give in, what else would she give down the road to then have to answer to.  This is definitely a tough situation no doubt about it

[poppyfields]

7 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I don't know why ultimatums get such a bad rap. 

They get a bad rap because they're manipulative.  Knowing he is not ready to marry her, if that is what she wants and needs, ditch the ultimatum and end the relationship.... 

That's pretty much it. Period, end of.

Ultimatums never lead to anything positive imo and experience.

Edited July 7, 2021 by poppyfields

[poppyfields]

3 minutes ago, DarkestbeforeDawn00 said:

Yeah, this is a great point.  I guess I could've said whatever and she wouldn't hear it unless I accepted the ultimatum.  Also agree, that if I do give in, what else would she give down the road to then have to answer to.  This is definitely a tough situation no doubt about it

Yeah, give in to the ultimatum and she pretty much has you by the balls at that point.  For the rest of your life.

Not a good place to be, for sure.

[DarkestbeforeDawn00]

2 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Yeah, give in to the ultimatum and she pretty much has you by the balls at that point.  For the rest of your life.

Not a good place to be, for sure.

Yeah this definitely seems to be the case.  I do want to try for us and see if she is consideration of salvaging our relationship and working towards what ultimately broke us up.  I know probably not a good idea, but I do want to marry her and be with her but also not fall victim to what you mentioned.

[Cookiesandough]

25 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I don't know why ultimatums get such a bad rap.  In essence, an ultimatum is an expression of a deal breaker, and we're all allowed deal breakers.   If she wasn't going to give an ultimatum, look at the other options:  a) continue waiting and worrying that she's being strung along or b) she could just decide that enough is enough and end it without giving you a chance to fix things.

I think you said something about being surprised by the ultimatum coming out of the blue.  Thing is, this has been boiling inside her for a long time.  Women are taught that a man will only propose if she doesn't bother him about it, so likely she didn't bother you.  But when no proposal was forthcoming, she got to the point where she needed to make a decision about the future timing of her life.   I see much the same advice given here: Women are told to hold their tongue, but set an internal timeline for how long they are prepared to wait.

For what it's worth, I know women who've wanted to marry, have been with partners for 10 years without a proposal and ended up realising that it was never going to happen.  Her ultimatum has ensured that this won't happen to her.

I agree, basil. At least ‘ultimatum’ in this context. There’s nothing wrong with saying what you want/need from rship or you will walk. Something you cannot compromise on. To me it doesn’t have to be manipulative . It’s basically just a boundary and giving the partner the opportunity to compromise so you don’t have to break up. Some people would actual want that opportunity to change things because maybe the boundary is not as firm for them. BUT I will say it does I think it does  mean that the fulfillment of whatever want/need is more important to you than your relationship with your partner. For some that’s ok and for some not 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[basil67]

19 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

They get a bad rap because they're manipulative.  Knowing he is not ready to marry her, if that is what she wants and needs, ditch the ultimatum and end the relationship.... 

In your scenario, she ends the relationship telling him that she's tired of waiting for a proposal and is moving on.   The only difference between this an an ultimatum is the order of actions.  Either way, she's decided that she will go if her needs aren't met and he knows the solution.

Edited July 7, 2021 by basil67

[basil67]

3 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

To me it is only manipulative if you don’t actual intend to walk after. 

Yes!  I always say that one shouldn't offer an ultimatum unless they are prepared to walk.  

[DarkestbeforeDawn00]

12 minutes ago, basil67 said:

In your scenario, she ends the relationship telling him that she's tired of waiting for a proposal and is moving on.   The only difference between this an an ultimatum is the order of actions.  Either way, she's decided that she will go if her needs aren't met and he knows the solution.

Yes the ultimatum was either we get engaged within 2 years or we are done. I understand that she probably didn’t mean to impose it as such but yeah it happened. I always told her I wanted to marry her but the ultimatum blindsided me. I still told her I wanted to marry her just couldn’t give the guarantee within the 2 years she was requesting.