Reflections on today's intense therapy session

[BourneWicked]

21 hours ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

@BourneWicked I meant to thank you for sharing your own experiences here about your dad and your xMM. I think there are so many stories on these boards that go back to our early childhood experiences. 

Did you notice you repeated any of the same patterns with xMM as you did with dad? What did you learn from your xMM experience that taught you about your history? (If you are comfortable enough to share)

Yep for sure, I recognize the people pleasing you said you did for MM in myself. If I try hard enough, he will stay. If I do everything I can for him, I will be "good enough" for him to choose me. Garbage thinking at its finest, but it's not even conscious, making it harder to move past. 

He was never around, my dad was never around. He was flakey and could be expected to bail or reschedule meetings. He lit up a room when he walked in.  He was a flirt and a charmer. All things I remember about my dad, as young as I was when my mom (rightfully, amazingly) cut him out of our life. 

I like the comments about healing child you. Yeah, adult me is fine, adult me doesn't put up with narcs and BS. But the child in me still wants to be accepted and "good enough" for people I should not waste a thought on seeking approval from. How do you heal that? I don't know. 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

3 hours ago, BourneWicked said:

I like the comments about healing child you. Yeah, adult me is fine, adult me doesn't put up with narcs and BS. But the child in me still wants to be accepted and "good enough" for people I should not waste a thought on seeking approval from. How do you heal that? I don't know. 

💗💗💗

Of course if I had the answer on this I probably wouldn't be posting here, but hopefully I'll learn the answer sooner than later! 🤞 I'll certainly share on LS whenever that glorious day comes.

If you, or anyone else, get there first, I implore you to share. 😀

[HadMeOverABarrel]

So I had a dream about my mom last night that I may have enjoyed a little too much.

I was shaking her (and can't remember what else) but I gave her a good scare. Then, I yelled at her, "Do you remember when you used to do this to me when I was just a little girl? How does it feel now?"

Yep, clearly I'm getting in touch with my anger regarding her. Hopefully that means something good is happening in me and a positive shift is on the horizon. I hope so!

[poppyfields]

@HadMeOverABarrelI didn't want you to think I had forgotten about ya and your question to me re vulnerability on what is now my thread that a moderator arbitrarily created spun off from @Classicfiction's thread.

I am not in that great a headspace today, but still pondering the question and will respond, I promise.   It's quite deep and I want to provide a thoughtful response.

I am glad you are starting to get in touch with your anger towards your mom!  I think it does mean something good is happening; as women we have been taught to suppress anger and "make nice" but suppressing negative feelings is so unhealthy and can lead to things such as depression, self-hatred and even physical illnesses.

When I was growing up, I used to throw up every morning before school.   My parents took me to several doctors, they could find nothing physically wrong; my illness every morn was mentally induced by (1) the pressures from school (private Catholic school), and (2) pressures at home because of my unstable mom.

When I got older and was better able to handle the stress, it went away.  xoxo

 

 

[Donnas]

Well first im happy you seek therapy to get better.

But you need to be careful what kind of therapist and therapy you go to and allows.

Therapy use to be and was made by having convos with therapists who had alot of life experience also, and by that also can recognize your pain and journey and help you get some clarity. Asking guestions that help you open up.etc. And not for more then 1 hour.

But lately it got alot like a budism,yoga,meditation,hypnotizing people. Tryna get to you spiritually, forcing you to deny some natural emotions.etc.

Like going to when u were 1.5 years old sounds decieving. Because how you know you even there. And what can that info do for you? By exploiting every single age and stuff , and by participate in this kind of methods can only confuse you make you run in circles in your issues. Because they make it more complicated also. While maybe all you need is a heart to heart convo with your mom to clear it out and works towards forgive apology and heal.

And its good to think. Dont know why your therapist tryna shut that down with weird theories. Things that come on your mind daily about your past may be the trauma. The things that hurted you the most. And needs to be talk about.

~~~~~~

I would like to advice you to seek a therapist that is about convos. and not about stuff where you need to close your eyes and be unconscious ...  And stuff.

And read more  christian based self help books about your issues.

Others life stories, books that explain narcism, abandonment books, etc can also help you heal and forgive and let go when you are able to.And you wont feel alone in your journey. Also joining talking groups of people who been true kinda the same as u can give you support and strength. Google support group and the name of your issue and city,see if there is any groups there. They often leaded by therapist or people who went true same and recovered.

You have also art therapy. And you can also do poem, singing at home as therapy to express your feelings and help u let them out. And even talk about it with your therapist in those talk therapy sessions.

There are so many ways that are good that can help you heal. Then letting people do stuff on you true meditation. There is a great danger in meditation that they never tell u about.

And if you are christian or wants to seek help from there, pray to God for help and guide can also help you.

All the best.

 

 

 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

@Donnas Hi. I appreciate your post and want to respond to some of what you wrote. 

First, questions? Have you been in counseling? Which healing modalities have you tried? What were your experiences with these?

I've been seeing my same therapist on and off for about 6 years. She's really very good. I had another very good therapist for about 4 years starting after my dad died when I was age 19--he influenced me a lot for the better. I can hardly imagine how many more set backs I would've had without his counsel at that particular time in my life.

In between, I tried several other counselors here and there. I wasn't impressed with most of them.

I've met others who have counseled with my current counselor. They also have had good results. I have grown from my therapy with her. For example, she has called out some things in the past that I initially couldn't see, but I can see totally clearly now. She's been in private practice for nearly 30 years. She's managed to remain compassionate and patient. No human is perfect, but she's been effective and I trust her. Overall, it's a good fit for me. 

I have joined groups, but LS is the best one imo. Some groups are 'fluffy', while I've found the people here very smart, insightful, generally well-meaning, and helpful. I've also watched countless videos on narcissism starting in 2016. There are some very good youtube videos on the subject. I have books too.

It's interesting that you mention art therapy. I told my counselor not long ago that art would be a good way to connect to my emotions--some are suppressed. I like to paint, write, and play musical instruments. I don't make enough time for those in my schedule. Before Covid, I was regularly attending community art classes and some other programs (qi gong, tai chi) at my local library. These were very enjoyable but haven't resumed since the pandemic began. 

I have gotten into gardening more. It's soothing. I attend my church regularly. My faith sustains and grounds me, so I have little fear about being led astray. I have a friendship with a church leader whom I go to when I have questions on the faith. He jokingly complains my questions are too deep sometimes. Ha!

Regarding 1.5 years old--that was not suggested by my counselor. Rather, she told me go to my earliest memory, and that age popped into my head. It's a bit fascinating to think we can remember so far back when in a relaxed state. I asked her afterwards if it's really possible to have these kinds of memories from so early in our lives. She said it was. She's the expert with the education, training, and experience to prove it. She also started her career working with foster children so I think she's pretty good with childhood development. 

I understand your concerns about "meditation" or being in a relaxed state.  As a Christian, the following are some things I've considered and hope you will too. When we sleep, we are in our most relaxed state--moreso than hypnosis, meditation, etc. Science has studied this in depth so read the data on brain wave activity if it interests you. The brain goes into a state similar to meditation during prayers as well. Certainly praying is an important part of the faith, and is commanded in the bible. Now, this part is a bit off topic for the thread, but I think it's useful to address your concerns so I'm including it. If we are concerned about spiritual attack, then such attack can occur at any time. Yes, we may be more susceptible in relaxed states of consciousness (including sleep). I have experienced spiritual attacks while asleep, but I've always been able to ward them off through my faith. Ultimately, if we are truly committed to our faith, we have to trust in our faith to protect us. We can also specifically request this protection before we enter any relaxed state. 

I could say more on this topic, but I'll leave it there.

Thank you again for posting on my thread. I welcome your further posts. 

 

[Donnas]

I just wonder if the therapy is good and works, does it have to take 6 years? Is there progress?What kind?....🤔😬

And i see you say you are christian.....

The bible do tell us not to consult in witchcraft or entertain other spirits/gods etc.But encourage to submit to Jesus if we wanna submit to any God. Or spirituality.

 

There is alot to know about this. But just a little bit of info : While doing this meditation kind of stuff u shut down the reasoning part of your brain and become more vunrable for the enemy to take control of you. And you are also completely depending on the person who is performing this on you. So she got complete power over you. And they even say if people that do this sessions dont end those yoga and meditation etc sessions well you can end up losing your mind and more confused.(become crazy).

 

Im telling you out of experience and knowledge. You are free to take it or not.🙂

Anyway, all the best. I just answered your topic.✌️

Edited July 23, 2021 by Donnas

[HadMeOverABarrel]

@Donnas It would help if you would answer the questions I posed earlier for some context.

Why do you think going to counseling is practicing witchcraft?

It is typical for counseling to take years (think about it: usually one hour per week over 50 weeks if someone goes every week the counselor is available each year equals 50 hours/year). So after 5 years including breaks it works out to about 150 hours of actual counseling.

I don't know if you've ever worked in a job, but that works out to about 5 weeks in a western country's typical work schedule. So the progress made for 5 weeks of actual work is quite good, especially considering the mind's psychological defenses. Read up on that or watch some youtube videos. They can be many and very complex. 

You should try it out for yourself to know best though.  The methods used are based on science and research. It is most definitely not hocus pocus. 

Also, no person can take complete control of you while in a relaxed state. I'm assuming you've never experienced being hypnotized or any method of tapping into the subconscious based on your comments. Let me know if to have. It is not like those stage shows where someone is 'hypnotized' to act like a chicken for example, especially in a clinical setting. Rather, the person undergoing the process is aware at all times of what is being said and what is happening. I can remember my sessions afterwards. The professional is guiding the person to go deeper into their conciousness. The person is responding to the professional's suggestions by their own free will.

What I believe you are speaking of is more akin to demonic possession. I have some very specific thoughts on this, but don't feel this forum is the appropriate place to discuss them. So instead I'll direct you to your church.

I read that you are fearful of these experiences. That may be ok because I suppose even if you negate the good, you'll also keep away from the bad by avoiding out of fear. From my own perspective, I am not afraid. Fear is not of God. Fear is of the enemy. God is love and fear cannot stand in the face of God's perfect love. 

For me, I know myself and I am confident in my relationship with God. God tells us many times in scripture that if He is for us, none can be against us. That includes the enemy. Remember, "Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me." Psalm 23:4. I am so confident in my faith, and in my relationship with God, that if I were to come face-to-face with a demon, I know I would come through the experience ok. This is what it means to be redeemed by the blood of the lamb. There is power in the blood, paid for on the cross, and I will not fear anything so long as I may take refuge under the Lord's wing. I have been tested many times, and not by me but by my savior, I will not perish no matter what comes before me. This is faith. 

The enemy feeds on fear. We can be controlled by fear. Love sets us free, and free from chains (of sin, evil, fear) is how God intended us to be. 

Be well and 'the only thing we have to fear is fear itself.'

 

[spiderowl]

I am sorry to hear what you have been through, OP, and what you are still going through.  It is clear that you are very angry with your mother, understandably.

I see that you are trying to help your disabled brother and it is great that you are there for him.

What bothers me, I suppose, is that you are still visiting your mother and spending time with her when you hate her behaviour so much.  Is there any way you can avoid visiting her?  I appreciate you are probably there to keep an eye on your brother.  Apart from your brother, is there any reason why you are still interacting with your mother?  She sounds very toxic and if she has behaved as you say, you do not owe her anything.

 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

On 7/21/2021 at 10:18 AM, HadMeOverABarrel said:

I'm usually NC to low contact. I haven't been spending holidays with her for years. Since Dec, things have been different because I stayed at her house when visiting my dying high school friend in hospice. Two weeks later, two uncles died. One as her brother so if I wanted to participate in the funeral, had to deal with mom. I also volunteered to housesit a couple days so she could visit him before he died. I felt it was important for her, him, and my aunt. 

In April, her best friend died. Again, I wanted to participate in the funeral and spend time with her friend's family members. Couldn't do that without mom being around. In May, the court order lifted allowing mom and disabled brother to communicate again. I went up in June to try to organize some things pertaining to brother.

Meanwhile, I've been trying to help her get the estate in order.

@spiderowl Thank you for your post. This is pretty much why I've been in contact so much recently. She is very toxic. It's sad.

I can see through her manipulations instantly now.  For example, when I was there last, she pulled out one of her long-standing favorites, "The bible says honor your mother and father." I replied, "Maybe you need to get more into the scripture for yourself." She replied, "I have read the scriptures." I retorted, "I mean for you to apply them to yourself rather than use them to manipulate your children."

Another fun exchange after I said no to helping her on something:

Her: If you don't do it I'll have M (sis-n-law) do it. 

Me: Awww so cute! Manipulations! Why don't you ask M to come live with you. She'd probably like that. Then she can be up your butt all the time without having to spy on you over your Alexa, computer, and security cameras.

My sis-in-law is her own special brand of nutty. She's obsessed with tracking my mom's business. Will call my mom if someone walks through the yard, finds online if my mom has unclaimed property and calls her to claim it, monitors everyone in court records and reports to mom, etc. She's like my mom's little lap dog and sentinel all wrapped into one. Mom also has a friend from her high school days who monitors us (kids) online--court records and social media and reports back to mom. Mom will call and ask about things if I didn't tell her about them and then say J. told her. Gosh, it sounds even more sick and disgusting when I type it out. 

My mom doesn't even know where I actually live. She knows about my main house I own, but she doesn't know I've had another place where I've been mostly for the past 4.5 years. I took my brother once and told him to tell nobody but I think he squalked on me or somebody is snooping. My mom has asked twice in the last couple months if I'm living in my house. In told her I'm living in my home (not technically a lie--just not the same home she's thinking of).

I'm starting EMDR next week and have four weekly sessions booked. I'm a little nervous. Might be a wild ride ahead for me emotionally in these next few weeks. But hopefully a better, happier me on the other side! So yea!

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Not sure why I feel compelled to explain this but...

When my two older brothers were trying to take a property I owned (unfortunately I put one of them on the deed never suspecting he would betray my trust) a few years ago, I put a lot of distance between me and my family members because of what happened. I moved to a place without disclosing my address to anyone so I can have peace that the likelihood of one of my toxic family members would show up unannounced on my door step would be limited. There is little connection to me in public records for this address. Only one place and someone would have to know specifically where to look. I have never gotten mail here, etc. It is my own little witness protection program.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

I just read the article below and mind blown! I hope others will give their two cents on the topic. It explains so much about why people here face the issues they do, more specifically relating to themes of codependency, denial of self in favor of the romantic partner treating us poorly. 

I have been feeling in therapy that I'm picking up and integrating the pieces of me inside that were split off (as defense mechanism for survival) during childhood trauma.

Also I've heard about anchoring from Tony Robbins-- thought it was his terminology but it's actually used in the field of psychology. Huh!  Then this article bringing it all together!

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https://codependency-treatment.weebly.com/codependency-treatment-for-splitting.html

Codependency Symptoms:
Splitting and Arrested Emotional Development 

Splitting is simply a way that our mind convinces us of something that isn’t really true. These inaccurate thoughts are usually used to reinforce negative thinking or emotions — telling ourselves things that sound rational and accurate, but really only serve to keep us in a ‘childish’ mindset unconscious and unaware of all our possibilities.


Splitting Defined:

“Splitting (also called all-or-nothing thinking in cognitive distortion) may mean two things: splitting of the mind, and splitting of mental concepts (or black and white thinking). The latter is thinking purely in extremes (e.g., goodness vs. evil, innocence vs. corruption, victimization vs. oppression, etc.), and as such can be seen as a developmental stage and as a defense mechanism. In psychoanalysis, there are the concepts of splitting of the self as well as splitting of the ego. This stems from existential insecurity, or instability of one's self-concept”. 
(From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Splitting is a possible symptom of Codependency, Borderline, Narcissistic and Avoidant Personality Disorders.

If you believe you or someone you love match this criteria, take a deep breath & don’t panic. Many people find themselves matching about 70% of criteria for different disorders in DSM IV, yet they don’t have any ‘personality disorders’. And even then only about 1/3 of individuals that are diagnosed with a personality disorder by qualified professionals are believed to actually have the disorder.

Codependency and Splitting

What is Splitting (and where in the mind)?

Going deeper… these are unconscious beliefs located in the subconscious…a form of arrested emotional development in childhood that has continued into adult years. Unconscious beliefs that are programmed responses in the fight-flight-freeze response.

ANCHORING OR RESOURCE STATES: 

Where does Splitting come from?
Splitting is being stuck in (or Anchored to) an emotional level of development from childhood experience also called “resource states”. Out of these ‘negative’ beliefs comes an underlying & unconscious commitment. I.E. I’m not good enough, I was a mistake, I’m dumb, ETC.


Anchoring to a ‘resource state’ and Splitting

To describe this classical conditioning behavior called anchoring in a human context. We must understand and take note that as we go through life we build a lot of anchors for various responses. 

Examples: How many of us feel a certain way when we hear "Our song", or have a sense of dread when we hear a certain tone in a parent's voice? 

 Anchors are learned responses…and the amazing thing about an anchor is that it is usually learned in result of a single learning experience (psychotherapists call the resource state). It is normally the case that there is one defining incident that creates the anchor program in the subconscious. Then the learned response is repeated and conditioned. 

Pavlov’s Law
Pavlov was a scientist in the 1800’s who discovered that behaviors could be triggered by signals. Pavlov tested ringing a bell while simultaneously presenting dogs with food.  Before long, the dogs ‘learned’ to salivate to the sound of the bell, without the food.  The bell became a ‘trigger’ for the response of salivation. Splitting is conditioned in much the same way.

Arrested Emotional Development and Splitting
Central to personality disorder problems, is “arrested emotional development”, which is triggered by parental neglect and/or abuse in infancy and childhood (birth-18 years old). 
NOTE: Adult development can be accomplished, but it takes time and treatment to mend the core trauma wounds that are inherently at the root of this dysfunction of emotional development.

BEING NEEDS VERSES DEFICIT NEEDS

Normal Adult Thinking verses Splitting
Critical adult thinking involves…logical reality based thinking and reasoning…(including skills such as comparison, classification, sequencing, cause/effect, patterning, webbing, analogies, deductive & inductive reasoning, forecasting, planning, hypothesizing, & critiquing).


SPLITTING IS AT THE BOTTOM OR 'BASE' LEVEL OF HUMAN FUNCTION...IN THAT MOTIVES AND ACTIONS ARE CAUSED BY DEFICIT NEEDS...OF NOT ENOUGH-NESS!
 

DR. ERIK ERIKSON

This brings us to “The Eight Psychosocial Stages of Human Development”

Dr. Erik Erikson, the famous psychologist (1902-1994) who proposed these Stages found that... 

…Unresolved Childhood Developmental Tasks “leave a life-long residue of emotional immaturity.”

In other words…

You’re original, immature, unidentified Subconscious Issues Are controlling your behaviors—and even your thinking...

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Cracking the code of push/pull; hot/cold; the cycle of abuse (e.g. gaslighting, manipulation, controlling/domination, devaluation)...

What is going on from their side? The answer in the following article.

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/narcwise.com/2019/08/14/why-narcissist-chose-you/%3famp=1

The narcissist’s divided self

First up, the basics.

Pathological narcissism can arise from developmental disruptions in early childhood, where a cohesive self-concept, or identity is never fully realised. Through ‘splitting’, a divided self is created comprised of the true-self & false-self (for more on splitting read From ‘soul mate’ to worthless: What’s behind the narcissist’s 180? and How the narcissist hooks you: Hoovering & baiting).

The true-self is rejected, and in its stead, the false-self is fabricated to protect the narcissist from what they are psychologically unable to allow: that they are flawed just like the rest of us.

This false-self encompasses those traits of superiority, omnipotence & entitlement. To the mind of the pathological narcissist, by assuming these attributes, the less desirable characteristics of humanity which inevitably reside in us all, are nullified since the good & the bad cannot coexist within their schema.

Aside from their perfection being patently ridiculous & contrary to the human condition, this false-self has one helluva job.

Want to know why?

Because the narcissist’s psychological survival is contingent on securing external validation through supply that their mythological perfection is reality. Clearly this is fraught with problems, being unattainable and all that. Hence, the host of behavioural patterns which form their disorder.

Making the madness ‘work’

To make the madness ‘work’, they endlessly chase substantiation that they are ‘more than’ all others (for the remainder of this piece we will refer to the bundle of narcissistic traits as the need to be ‘more than’ – for more on this concept read Proof the narcissist abuses you intentionally and will never change).

The thing with being ‘more than’, is that it requires a reference point. As without comparison to some other, being ‘more than’ cannot be assessed.

And this is why, the narcissist chose you. Integral to feeding the narc’s ego is social comparison. And you, gorgeous one, were chosen as the narcissist’s reference point.

Pathological envy was the magnet that drew them to you & kick-started idealisation. Equally though, envy inevitably also leads to devaluation & finally, discard.

Here’s how it works.

Recognising envy during idealisation

Emptiness

The narcissist selected you because they were attracted to your qualities. As with any relationship, whatever it is about you that is special, is what drew them in.

And this is where the parallel with emotionally healthy relationships ends.

For the pathological narcissist, relationships serve a functional purpose as it relates to being ‘more than’. They are a self-enhancement strategy, and “an opportunity to increase the positivity of the self-concept” (Campbell, 1999, p.1256).

By identifying with you and those gifts of yours that are special, they bolster the favoured view of themselves, successfully renouncing that ever present true-self (at first…).

The thing with the pathological narcissist is that beyond the complicated internal landscape of smoke & mirrors, there lies hollowness. By abandoning their true-selves, & adopting that false-self, at their core they experience emptiness.

As stated, the psychological survival of the narcissist hinges on validating the veracity of those traits that make up their false-self. Having denied their true-self, their identity beyond simply being ‘more than’ is at best, limited.

So, in addition to rejecting their true-selves causing emptiness, it means that through the obsessive need to prove themselves ‘more than’ others, their identity at any given time is significantly defined by those they surround themselves with.

Constructing identity

In choosing you, they are also selecting the next evolution of their ‘identity’, given relationships for pathological narcissist’s are in part about constructing their desired self (Morf & Rhodewalt, 2001).

Here’s the thing.

The void they experience & poor sense of identity, are not solely due to setting their true-selves aside. It is also about lacking depth & breadth of emotional range. And whether subconsciously or not, the pathological narcissist sniffs out targets who possess what is absent in them: empathy, compassion, strength, courage, kindness etc.

And you dear heart, I know down to the marrow in my bones, have these beautiful qualities in spades.

Sadly, as you no doubt well know, whilst drawn to these attributes in you, it was never for the sake of valuing them as part of your gorgeous self, and for this reason alone.

You were serving the purpose of mirroring for them what they so desperately needed to believe of themselves. By merging with you and mirroring your specialness, they bolstered their fragile belief system & created the identity they wish they had.

Not so sure?

Reflect on that frenzied torrent you once heard ‘we are twin flames…cut from the same wood…two peas in a pod…soul mates etc.’ (for more on love-bombing read The narcissist’s ‘soul mate’ effect: How & why they do it and Narcissists love boundaries: Exposing the truth).

From their very own lips to your ears. These were the narc’s attempts to convince not only you, but themselves, how very much alike the two of you are.

Relationships as a strategy for self-regulation

What we’ve just checked out through self-enhancement & self-construction, are why relationships are a strategy for the narcissist.

They are a way of regulating the chaos within. For as long as the relationship feeds them by feeling ‘more than’, they are psychologically OK.

Their internal rage is on hiatus. They have temporarily suppressed the beast of envy.

And this is why they went into overdrive in needing to ‘lock you in’. What we are referring to here is, of course, love bombing & idealisation.

Recognising envy in devaluation & discard

When the beast awakens

So, what happens through that process of social comparison with you as the reference point, when feeling ‘more than’ is compromised?

When whispers of what lies at the root of their polarised nature sneaks past their denial, the envy which during idealisation was less conscious, becomes more palpable…and the beast of envy wakes: “a painful emotion ensuing from the envier’s lack of another’s quality, achievement, or possession” (Lange, Delroy & Crusius, 2018 p.601).

At the outset, your special traits enhanced their self-image. Up until this point, through identification with you, they have managed to delude themselves into believing you are ‘same, same’. If you are superior, then so too, must they be.

Untenable inferiority leads to rivalry

But you are not. Never were. Never will be.

And your beauty is so lovely, that even the strength of the narcissist’s denial begins to crack.

Through that comparative process embedded in their DNA, and your gorgeousness, you begin triggering their inferiority.  Suddenly, feelings of being ‘less than’ are elicited, because the standard you set becomes a threat.

By possessing traits & qualities that they do not have, you are directly jeopardising their self-concept, that false-self they cling to. And in turn, to combat this, and the possibility of narcissistic injury through feelings of untenable inferiority, the narcissist becomes your rival.

For the narc, this is the great levelling, the only way they know to re-establish their equilibrium. This is, of course, self-regulation in action once more. But this time, you are the victim.

Schadenfreude

To reclaim their balance through supremacy, you are devalued, invalidated, abused.

The sickness of the narcissist is that enhancing the self comes at the cost of the diminishment of others. To correct the discomfort elicited, they must level the differences (Lange et. al., 2016; Zlatan & Johar, 2012).

Enter schadenfreude: self-regulation through the malicious, intentional sabotage of the target of envy.

It is the pleasure derived from the pain of another. You know that smirk you catch on their faces every now & then when the mask slips, & they know they’ve hit the jackpot in hurting you?

That’s it. That’s schadenfreude.

Put differently, your misfortune, makes them feel better.

Combine rivalry & schadenfreude in a big old festering pot of poisonous narcissistic self-regulation, and what do you get? Hate bombs.

You get ALL the invalidation tactics you know so well. We’re talking dominance, derogation, intimidation, emotional blackmail, gaslighting, smear campaigns, lying, violence, manipulation, isolation, stonewalling, silent treatment, ghosting, projection etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum.

Yep.

There’s not one bit that didn’t resonate, right? ALL this. You have lived it. You have SURVIVED it.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

TRIGGERED!!!

I was just watching a documentary on the Amazon Review Killer Todd Kholhepp. 

Kayla, the victim found chained on his property, said Kholhepp told her she'd learn to like him through Stockholm Syndrome.

I immediately hit pause and remembered when xMM mentioned Stockholm Syndrome to me years ago. At first, I thought he was referring to how he felt about his marriage, but not long after I wondered if he was intentionally using Stockholm Syndrome techniques on me. I never asked him but I have always known he would be familiar with decades of experience in criminal law. Plus his wife had a degree in psychology although she never worked in the field. I assume they discussed the topic. 

My therapist said xMM is a narcissist. I can see it clearly now that I've been out of the fog. I've actually mused to myself that one of the reasons he probably stays married is his wife knows where the bodies are buried (hopefully he's not actually that evil).

It was jarring to see flash on screen that a serial killer told his victim he was using Stockholm Syndrome with her. So my mind resurrected a question from the past: Did xMM intentionally use Stockholm Syndrom tactics on me for his amusement?  He literally proudly told me in one of our last conversations, "My daughter is a player, like me!"

There were moments when I felt like I was his real life video game--mainly when he stonewalled, dodged questions, treated me with contempt. He was obsessed with feeling in control and I told him as much.

In the middle of it all, it was confusing--alternating between affection and cruelty. Just crazy stuff.  I'm so glad I completely told him off, diminished him, the last communication I had with him. I still have the rare urge to find him, walk up and kick him in the nuts as hard as I ever practiced in martial arts, but then I'd have to break no contract so not worth it. 

[BourneWicked]

Do you know... more and more... I realize the things that were terrible about MM and wonder why I wanted that. He was a self professed "good guy" but his actions and eyes said he was a player. So why was I so drawn to that? Any idiot can be a player, it takes boundaries to say "ok I could hit on this lady but I know who I am and that's not appropriate now."

Self control. Boundaries. Brains over thinking with ones um... pants. 

So I still think about that a lot. How do I stop finding the "player" aspect attractive? Before him, I thought that type was desperate idiots. But then he came along... It was many of his qualities that were appealing, but that one should have been a big "nope" up front. 

Idk. It's maddening. His thinking (legit trying to Stockholm syndrome ya) vs your own thinking doesnt really matter. What he wanted or was doing is less important than whatever it is in you that made you desire that behavior. If that makes sense. 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

9 hours ago, BourneWicked said:

His thinking (legit trying to Stockholm syndrome ya) vs your own thinking doesnt really matter. What he wanted or was doing is less important than whatever it is in you that made you desire that behavior. If that makes sense. 

In my particular case, my xMM checked so many of the same boxes as my mother. Subconsciously I recognized it and was drawn in like a bug to light. 

Another thing where he differed and hooked me more was that when I pulled back, he wouldn't pursue like I was used to with most guys. It was frustrating but somehow added. Plus he was incredibly up front and alluring from the beginning. We had intense chemistry from the beginning. The first time we actually met, we interacted as if we'd known each other intimately for years. It was actually very sweet: at the restaurant, I asked to touch his hand. He agreed. Soon after he asked to come next to me and hold me in the booth we sat in.

The dance ensued from there. 

I understand much more after many hypnosis and therapy sessions. 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Just had an aha moment! If you're patient enough to read the whole post, I'll tie it back to my OP. 

As always, I'm interested in others' opinions on the topic...

Background:

Yesterday I was brokering a deal in my business between two high status, high net worth individuals. For one of them, I have successfully closed five transactions over the last 15 months. I consistently got him a great value when he was buyer and top dollar when he was seller while keeping his costs to near zero (except my fees which are at the market rate).  Additionally, I've always transacted with the utmost integrity (rare amongst my colleagues). We have worked together pretty seamlessly.

About a week ago I was contacted by man #2. I began building the business relationship with him over the next several days while I culminated the transaction between them and carried it through to closing. By weekend, all contracts in place and I did the other steps required of me. Two days ago (Tuesday) we all met at the meeting I set up. After my departure, they went to lunch together to get to know each other. I specifically was not invited (man #1 asked to meet privately with man #2 and gave lame excuse that they may discuss "illegal stuff" that I probably don't want to hear). I told them to remember who introduced them, enjoy their boy bonding, and I went on my way. 

Yesterday I followed up with #1 asking how his meeting went and how could I further be of assistance. He said everything went great, they were moving forward, and he'd take care of me next time he sees me (not the usual way I'm compensated as I typically collect by the day the transaction closes). So I said, "Sorry, I didn't catch that last sentence." He basically repeated, and then I said, "Sure, you'll pay me $xxxxx like we agreed in our contract." He argued and he was going to pay me an amount of just under 1/3. I responded that my expectation for compensation was the amount we agreed to in the comtract and that is what it will be; he could pay me the 1/3 but I'll still collect the remainder. He got angry and said he'd pay something but we will never transact again. 

Then I reached out to #2 (who apparently was too much of a wuss to pick up his phone but ended up texting a lot to me). I told #2 that I wanted to give him an opportunity to express his version of events so that I could decide how I'll proceed. I told him I'll protect my interests including litigation, requiring his appearance if necessary, if I find he was culpable in my loss. His first reaction was, "Wow. Sort of didnt think you would respond in that manner." Upon reading this I thought, This guy must have really underestimated me in business. After sending a couple texts, I told him I wouldn't engage in a text marathon and he can call if he wants to resolve the conflict peacefully. He never called--tells me everything I need to know. 

Anyhow the upshot is, soon after I went silent on text with #2, #2 sent me payment for 1/3 of what #1 owed me with a message stating it's the max his bank will allow him to send electronically to a new vendor. Within an hour, #1 sent me half of what #1 owes. I have been pretty ticked off that these dudes tried to pull some bull over on me. I'm still planning to collect the remaining 1/2 from #1.

Tie-back to OP:

I can't stop wondering, what the heck is it that made these guys, and other people before, think it's ok to try this crap with me? I must be socially signaling somehow that I'm going to be a pushover or something, right? Every time it happens I do push back, but that's exhausting. How do I fix this so people don't try to stick it to me?

I swear this harkens to some patterns established from my parents when I was little (the same stuff repeated with xMM etc). I'm missing something in connecting the dots here. Can anybody help with this?

One thing I started looking into today was the psychology of status. Personally, I rail against putting on airs or playing politics/social status games. I hate it because my mom did it to the fullest. It seems so cheap and hollow to me. I feel I shouldn't have to prove my worth to the world based on what I have/wear/drive. I like nice things and I have nice things, but it's for my own enjoyment for their quality or uniqueness.

At the same time, I think status seeking is a reality of our society. We have to look and play the part for people to buy into what we are selling (mainly ourselves) rather than people accepting us based on merit or code of ethics. In my experience, people like to talk about ethics and merit as part of their value system, but 9 times out of 10 they choose what they believe either is high status or will give them more status. (I might post this topic in another forum to get people's thoughts on it separately).

Sooo, today in my quest for learning how to not get taken advantage of, I saw a video clip discussing that when people of high status are in situations to flex their status to people of lower status, the high status brains reward them with a release of neurochemical serotonergic, which is the feel-good hormone [serotonin?] (often lacking in depressed people).

I got to thinking about how I feel depressed after exposure to my mom and other bullies--and have seen this happen with other people, too. So while the narcissist/bully gets a chemical high for being mean and superficially increasing their status, the target/victim gets to feel depressed or low--I guess there is another hormone released in the target's brain that makes them feel bad.

So in relationships where there is a power imbalance, or intermittent reinforcement, this relationship and chemical reaction in the participants' brains must be reinforced. I just want to understand this so I know what's happening in me so I can fix it. I guess when others commiserate with us over injustice or whatever, some kind of positive hormone is released to make us feel better and maybe that's why sharing our problems with others helps us feel better. 

I'm still missing something to solve my own riddle, but maybe it goes back to status (as discussed above) or personal power relatimg to unhealthy patterns in my childhood??

I just don't want to have to keep fighting people for what is already mine. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by HadMeOverABarrel

[glows]

They sound like poor /unethical businesspeople. Don’t let this get to you. 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Just now, glows said:

They sound like poor /unethical businesspeople. Don’t let this get to you. 

I appreciate your comment very much. I wish it didn't upset me so much but here I am. Thank you for basically calling them out as [blankety blanks]. But is there still a lesson here for me? Did I miss some flags somewhere? Am I being naive somehow? Or does everyone experience this level of crap from other people?

[glows]

1 minute ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

I appreciate your comment very much. I wish it didn't upset me so much but here I am. Thank you for basically calling them out as [blankety blanks]. But is there still a lesson here for me? Did I miss some flags somewhere? Am I being naive somehow? Or does everyone experience this level of crap from other people?

I’ve been talked down before. It happens. I take it as part of the territory but it can be frustrating. Stick to your ethics doing business and your reputation will build. Sometimes the reputation of others will precede them. Did you do any background work/checks on these two? I try to separate personal misgivings with lack of ethics or professionalism with work. If someone can’t be trusted the relationship is damaged. They have to earn that back in increments. I don’t think you’re naive. 

[Pumpernickel]

1 hour ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

I'm still missing something to solve my own riddle, but maybe it goes back to status (as discussed above) or personal power relatimg to unhealthy patterns in my childhood??

 

I can relate! When this happens to me in biz i get so angry, i find it extremely unfair and I always have to calm down, breathe & then remind myself to not take it personally, that there’s nothing wrong with me, and that this attitude reveals more about them than about me.

 

(now i’m probably starting to ramble and getting completely off-topic, but here goes:)

The way you handle these situations definitely is rooted in how you were treated/whether you were taken seriously  within the framework of your FOO. The way you look at yourself, the way your self-worth is developed and how self-conscious you are all goes back to your family; for us females I think it’s especially important to pay attention to how our mothers treated us. Did they build us up? Did they talk down to us? Etc. 

And status plays a huge role in certain industries. And whether or not you play along or ignore the fat cars/designer suits/Rolexes etc. also depends on how secure you are as a person/woman in business <———- which again is rooted in your FOO. Confidence is developed very early on, and will be built upon and solidified throughout school/college, or can be destroyed through bullying during puberty and similar events. If there was nothing there to build upon in the first place because your parents never gave you anything to use as a foundation that can be very problematic for a woman’s self-esteem in general. 
 

 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

@Pumpernickel Thanks for your support and comment. I hope I'll figure out how to not let this trigger me so much. What I most regret is how much this has occupied my thoughts since yesterday and how much of my energy it has consumed. 

As for rambles, I think I've established I can get into a pretty good ramble myself (lol) so you're not alone...although I've never had that opinion of you from any posts of yours I've read on LS.

You know what's wierd to me, Pumpernickel, is that I typically show up in my life as confident and assertive. My mother says I have moxie, people comment on my confidence positively...sooo I'm just incredibly baffled when someone provokes me. In this instance, I put guy #1 in his place when he tried to test me at the beginning 1.5 years ago. I thought he respected me since and he seemed to in our other transactions, but then this! Wth?!

Edited August 13, 2021 by HadMeOverABarrel
Typo

[Pumpernickel]

Yeah, It really seems suspicious that those two have somehow conspired behind your back - After the deal was done! And not inviting you to eat with them and just trying to cut you off money-wise?! Rude! 

I mean you could look at it as a compliment: they needed one another to muster up the courage to try to cut your commission. On their own, they would’ve been scared. But I totally get it. I would be completely pissed as well no matter what. I’m glad you have a contract so they will not prevail either way.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

6 hours ago, glows said:

Did you do any background work/checks on these two?

I know about their businesses/financials. I have property records, bank statements, for example. I've not done criminal or credit checks. 

In my business, I usually collect funds from a party at the beginning of a transaction sufficient to cover my compensation, hold the funds in escrow, and then remit the difference to the appropriate party upon the transaction closing. It helps. In this instance, I put the deal together in less than one week. I should have been more on top of collecting funds, but I was focused on getting it closed. Still, had I collected, it could have led to a dispute over ownership of the funds so maybe it was for the better?? Thank God at least I got my contract signed for the compensation piece before this all went done. Else I'd totally be out the money. 

And still, I'm chaffed by the fact that I'm getting burned by someone with whom I've already successfully closed five transactions seamlessly. Also, I've made him a LOT of money. My performance is well above average. Guess he thinks the grass is greener somewhere else after I fattened him up. Well, the fool will soon learn otherwise. 😒

Ugh, I've got to get past my anger though!

Edited August 13, 2021 by HadMeOverABarrel

[HadMeOverABarrel]

3 minutes ago, Pumpernickel said:

And not inviting you to eat with them and just trying to cut you off money-wise?! Rude! 

Right?!?!

My biggest problem is myself still being upset. I'm going to work on that. 

But you're right, there are some consolations here:

#2 too cowardly to talk on the phone with me

They both sent electronic payment within an hour of my announcing my displeasure. 

I should focus more on the small wins/gains, right?