Here's a Doozie

[Dazedandconfused05]

So here we go. If you want to read my first post it was Nov 1997.  Short version I caught my wife of 39 years in an EA with a mutual college friend.  I stopped it and threatened him.  She didnt want to write a DNC so I wrote it for her.  
So here I am writing to you good people again 4 years later.  
 

We have a couple that we’ve been friends with for over 30 years.  He and I play golf and the girls hang out together.  The woman I’ll call C has always been strange to me. She is 70 and the guy (B) is 65.  My wife is 60 and I’m 63.  On 2 separate occasions at parties C has gone around grabbing guys crotches to measure them up.  Like I said very strange woman.  A couple years ago B and I were playing golf and the girls were in the clubhouse bar drinking.  When B and I are finished and walk in the bar, C and my wife are talking to a very handsome dude up at the bar.  Then all of a sudden C plants a big one on his lips and motions for my wife to do the same which she does.  B and I both see this, I’m pretty upset he’s not.  When I bring this up to my wife she says “that didn’t happen.”   For the last 2-3 years I have been on the outs with C.  Imagine that.  They live 3 hours away.   About 3 years ago C began inviting my wife to visit and not me.  There are other people are around, and of course B.  Also the last few times we have gotten together B has been hitting on my wife pretty heavy, lots of sexual innuendos and giggling, while I’m left to chat with C.  Not my favorite thing to do.  So we come to this last time they visited about 3 weeks ago.  B and I have been away playing golf but the plan was the 4 of us to spend the last night at my house.  This is when it gets wierder.  B starts his flirting and of course my wife is eating it up.  Then C turns to me and starts to touch my knee and thigh asking about a surgery I had.  I’m like can this night please be over?  Not a chance. C says “why don’t we all get in the hot tub?”  I fire the hot tub up and I get in, wife gets in along with C.  B is not there yet.  My wife starts to massage C’s shoulders.  C pulls away and says stop.  Then my wife starts to massage Cs feet again C pulls away.  My wife has never tried to massage me in the hot tub much less another woman. Then B walks up, he didn’t bring his trunks, and I say dude go get a pair in my closet.  He says no I got something.  He comes back with a pair of stretch underwear 2 sizes too small.  You can see every detail if by you know what I mean.  He spreads his legs out and eases his package down in the water about 4 feet from my wife’s face.  And my wife has a look on her face that I’ll never forget.  She’s looking and smiling.  I am freaking out at this point.  Next my wife extends her legs and begins massaging Bs shins.  I back out of the hot tub and then go in the house visibly upset.  They stay out for awhile longer.  I get their ass out of town the next day and then leave myself for 2 days without telling wife where.  The 2 days were spent in stress with the latest event triggering stuff from 4 years ago.  And then at day 2 I just go “well I guess we chalk it up a bad memory let it go at that”.  But I can’t. I’m going insane with all of the bad feelings.  Then this past weekend I tell my youngest daughter about the hot tub and she tells me I’m crazy and that I need to get out which I do.  (My home BTW.). I travel for extensive periods so I’m not permanently leaving my home.  Had a chat with lawyer today he says I’m ok.  I told wife we’re done.  She was calling me a crazy man on my way out the door.  Like I said I’m in a very bad way, but I think I’ll be ok.  Writing this has helped.  BTW my wife did take a polygraph about 3 years ago and passed.  

 

Questions

Both my daughter and wife say I’m crazy.  Am I?

I think they were trying to ease me into a wife swap.  Opinions?

What is your opinion of of a 3 way with my wife, B and C?  I think it happened starting shortly after the polygraph.   At the very least I think B has had sex with my wife with Cs permission.  

I can’t take it any more.  I told my lawyer I want out.  He says I should stay away from the house and cool off for several months which I am ok with.  He said we need to have everything ready though should we decide to proceed in 6 months or so.  I go see him Thursday.  

Please no “she’s a b**** divorce her”comments.  Looking for comments/suggestions from folks who have been in similar situations.  

Thank you so much and God bless.  

 

 

 

 

 

[BaileyB]

33 minutes ago, Dazedandconfused05 said:

Both my daughter and wife say I’m crazy.  Am I?

Kindly, the only opinion that matters is yours. 

What do you want for your life? Do you want to feel content, secure in the knowledge that your wife is loyal and trustworthy? Or, do you want this kind of drama in your life? 

I know what my answer would be. I don’t think these people are friends. 

And, I think you know what you need to do. Good luck. 

[Yosemite]

Quote

A couple years ago B and I were playing golf and the girls were in the clubhouse bar drinking.  When B and I are finished and walk in the bar, C and my wife are talking to a very handsome dude up at the bar.  Then all of a sudden C plants a big one on his lips and motions for my wife to do the same which she does.  B and I both see this, I’m pretty upset he’s not.  When I bring this up to my wife she says “that didn’t happen.” 

This is an odd response. It’s also strange that your own daughter thinks that you’re “crazy.”  Not trying to be insulting, but is it possible that you’re seeing things that aren’t there?

Edited August 3, 2021 by Yosemite

[glows]

Does it matter at this point whether your wife has cheated? I ask this genuinely, with care. You are upset with your wife's behaviour. Something feels very wrong. It shouldn't take a polygraph or an admission of guilt for you to divorce and move on. Deep down you don't need that. You find closure within yourself and acknowledge that the person you married has changed or is not the person you thought she was. If you are looking for admissions of guilt, this is akin to the holy grail. Individuals rarely admit to wrongdoing when cornered or unveiled. It's human instinct to recover or conceal deceit because we know that it is wrong(not acceptable) in the first place. Trust your instincts.

You are full of doubt which is very ordinary actually in the process of divorce. All these details come back to haunt you because you have extra time and are spending your days alone also without a partner. Be wise about how you spend your time or regulate your thoughts/emotions. Tell yourself you'll get through this and stick to the facts of what you have seen, what you do know. There's a light at the end of this. 

[Dazedandconfused05]

4 minutes ago, glows said:

Does it matter at this point whether your wife has cheated? I ask this genuinely, with care. You are upset with your wife's behaviour. Something feels very wrong. It shouldn't take a polygraph or an admission of guilt for you to divorce and move on. Deep down you don't need that. You find closure within yourself and acknowledge that the person you married has changed or is not the person you thought she was. If you are looking for admissions of guilt, this is akin to the holy grail. Individuals rarely admit to wrongdoing when cornered or unveiled. It's human instinct to recover or conceal deceit because we know that it is wrong(not acceptable) in the first place. Trust your instincts.

You are full of doubt which is very ordinary actually in the process of divorce. All these details come back to haunt you because you have extra time and are spending your days alone also without a partner. Be wise about how you spend your time or regulate your thoughts/emotions. Tell yourself you'll get through this and stick to the facts of what you have seen, what you do know. There's a light at the end of this. 

Thank you so much for the kind words.

[glows]

2 minutes ago, Dazedandconfused05 said:

Thank you so much for the kind words.

You're very welcome. When I felt I was going insane I wrote in a private journal for a period of a few months. I wanted to know exactly what I was thinking(and be able to reflect) and I wanted to record all the details of why or how my marriage ended. It was important for me to write it down. You may find that this strengthens your resolve or thoughts along the way. You can revise certain things you once thought about life, relationships, partners in general. Go back to your convictions on what you believe a marriage should be or what a relationship looks like to you. What would it take for you to find or experience peace again?

[solostand]

I lived with an abusive boyfriend once who kept very very close tabs on every move I made, both inside, and outside, the home.

One day I noticed a tiny, tiny hold drilled in our bedroom door. We lived in a tiny tiny apartment and when he blew up, I would go into the bedroom and lock the door to get some peace. I accused him of drilling a hole in the door to spy on me. He vehemently denied it! My God, that was there when we moved in, don't you remember? What's wrong with you?

I told my son about it, and he too thought I was imagining it. Of course, my son didn't see the control and abuse that was going on in that tiny apartment. My son said I was crazy.

I wasn't crazy.

It's called gaslighting, folks.

[Wiseman2]

6 hours ago, Dazedandconfused05 said:

I told my lawyer I want out.  He says I should stay away from the house and cool off for several months which I am ok with.  

Excellent advice. Cool off and save yourself  health problems from going crazy over swim trunks, playing detective etc..

See a physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health. Get a referral to a qualified therapist for ongoing support.

[Dazedandconfused05]

7 hours ago, solostand said:

I lived with an abusive boyfriend once who kept very very close tabs on every move I made, both inside, and outside, the home.

One day I noticed a tiny, tiny hold drilled in our bedroom door. We lived in a tiny tiny apartment and when he blew up, I would go into the bedroom and lock the door to get some peace. I accused him of drilling a hole in the door to spy on me. He vehemently denied it! My God, that was there when we moved in, don't you remember? What's wrong with you?

I told my son about it, and he too thought I was imagining it. Of course, my son didn't see the control and abuse that was going on in that tiny apartment. My son said I was crazy.

I wasn't crazy.

It's called gaslighting, folks.

So true.   

[mark clemson]

14 hours ago, Dazedandconfused05 said:

(1) Both my daughter and wife say I’m crazy.  Am I?

(2) I think they were trying to ease me into a wife swap.  Opinions?

(3) What is your opinion of of a 3 way with my wife, B and C?  I think it happened starting shortly after the polygraph.   At the very least I think B has had sex with my wife with Cs permission.  

(4) I can’t take it any more.

 

(1) Not crazy to recognize that something's going on between them. Possibly crazy to leave this late in life BUT if your partner's behavior is causing you distress and they won't change, sometimes there are few other options.

(2) Probably, yes. I doubt the hottub thing was fully spontaneous. Maybe partly spontaneous, but at the very least it sounds like they were building up to something like this.

(3) It may not really matter. I'd have no idea of when it started. I'd say there's at least a 50% chance of that. Barring that, I'd still say there was a 90+% chance of overt, direct flirting and sexual discussions, and a 100% chance of indirect, implied flirting and sexual innuendo at some level.

(4) It very much sounds like your wife is interested in "sexual adventures" of a type that you simply have no interest in/tolerance for. The fact that this ball got rolling without you being brought in until very late in the game is probably due at least in part to her recognition that, in the end, you wouldn't be interested. She probably hoped or tried to tell herself that you might be ok with it "when the time came". Clearly you weren't.

There are those in the world who are interested in this sort of thing and those who simply aren't. While I don't suggest divorce to people on this forum (as a matter of principle), if you're one of the latter types - well, you are who you are.

Edited August 3, 2021 by mark clemson

[spiderowl]

(1) Both my daughter and wife say I’m crazy.  Am I?

We don't know the true situation.  Looking back at your previous postings, you have used things like GPS and other means to track your wife and see what she has been up to.  Getting her to take a polygraph seems incredibly controlling.  You can't make your wife love you or make her be faithful; she either chooses to be or does not.  It seems odd that your daughter is covering for your wife.  Why would she do that?  What is the reason they are saying you are crazy?  It might seem a stupid question to ask but I cannot see a good reason for a daughter to cover for her mother in this way.  Does your daughter care about you?  If you saw your wife kissing the guy at C's instigation, then you are the witness.  It does not make sense for your wife to deny it.  Things are not adding up.

(2) I think they were trying to ease me into a wife swap.  Opinions?

Possibly, but it seems a bit unlikely given how they must know your feelings on the subject.  On the other hand, some people are provocative by nature and the couple seem rather odd.  You say your wife does not filter her words when drunk - was she drunk and behaving out of character with them?

(3) What is your opinion of of a 3 way with my wife, B and C?  I think it happened starting shortly after the polygraph.   At the very least I think B has had sex with my wife with Cs permission.  

If all you are saying is true and you really did see these things rather than misinterpret what was happening, then it seems quite possible that they would have been involved in that.  Again, you cannot control your wife, you can only divorce her.

(4) I can’t take it any more.

I can totally understand that.  Your lawyer did the right thing by suggesting you keep away and cool down.  You don't want to do anything in haste here.  What do you think you would do if you were there, at home with your wife, feeling as you are now?  However you are feeling, you need to maintain control of yourself and avoid harm to anyone else.  Do you think you can do that?

I know you don't want to divorce your wife, but what are the options if you cannot trust her?  You don't trust her and have been spying on her.  Look at the possible outcomes:

Say you find out she is cheating, having threesomes, or whatever - what will you do?

Say you find out she is not cheating and that you have just misinterpreted some things - what will you do? 

Once the basic trust has gone, you can't usually get it back.  

[basil67]

19 hours ago, Dazedandconfused05 said:

 Then this past weekend I tell my youngest daughter about the hot tub and she tells me I’m crazy and that I need to get out which I do.

In your last thread, you say your daughter was not speaking to you.  I think it's hard to respond as to why she told you that you're crazy without knowing more about the history between the two of you and the general vibe she feels in the household.   

Also, why are you involving her in this matter?  This is between you and your wife.

 

[Dazedandconfused05]

29 minutes ago, basil67 said:

In your last thread, you say your daughter was not speaking to you.  I think it's hard to respond as to why she told you that you're crazy without knowing more about the history between the two of you and the general vibe she feels in the household.   

Also, why are you involving her in this matter?  This is between you and your wife.

Both of my daughters are the light of my life and I love them dearly.  They are 26 and 31.  I really thought I was a good dad to them growing up.  My job took me on moves around the country and we were constantly going on trips, NYC, Chicago, DC, beaches, camping.   Went to every single school and sporting event except for maybe a couple when I was traveling for work.  But they are totally taking my wife's side on this.  Also I might add that my wife is still paying both daughters cell bill and car insurance against my wishes.  Also wife is paying for oldest daughter's car payment. Oldest has already written me off.  Which makes me so terribly sad about this last Sunday night with the youngest.  She was my last hope.  She said she wanted to hear my side of the story.  As I was describing the hot tub incident, she got hysterically angry and told me to leave my house, which I did.  As I was packing and walking out the door, wife called me crazy over and over.   So there you have it.  As we go through this process, I'm going to send a text to both of them telling that I love them more than anything, and if they ever need anything, I'm a phone call or text away.  I don't know what else to do.  

Quote

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Dazedandconfused05

[basil67]

It sounds like your daughters are seeing a very different side of things to what you are.  You didn't say why your first daughter stopped talking to you: was it also connected to how you relate to your wife?  I wondered if perhaps your wife is feeding them different stories to you.... but as they are adult women, it's likely they are seeing stuff going on and making their own decisions.  

If you want to reconnect with your daughters, a text isn't going to cut it.  You have to tell them that you're so sad things have gone bad between you and ask what steps you can take to make it better.  This will include taking their views seriously and likely seeking some type of therapy for yourself.  You said in the last thread that because of what they've been told, your family and friends believe you need psychiatric help.  Perhaps your daughters have witnessed stuff which makes them firmly believe this themselves?  To be frank, they are reacting as if they see you as abusive.  

Edited August 3, 2021 by basil67

[Dazedandconfused05]

2 hours ago, spiderowl said:

You say your wife does not filter her words when drunk - was she drunk and behaving out of character with them?

Wife drinks every day and expects those around her to as well.  C gets out of her mind drunk on wine hence the crotch grabbing.  Might as well throw this in.  About 30 years ago we all lived in the same neighborhood and we had a neighborhood pool party.  There were about 8 of us guys sitting on the side of the pool.  C comes up and goes right down the line grabbing everybody’s crotch.  We just looked at each other, WTF?  

[Dazedandconfused05]

5 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Perhaps your daughters have witnessed stuff which makes them firmly believe this themselves?  To be frank, they are reacting as if they see you as abusive. 

I was told I’m not supposed to differ from others views, but I’m not the bad guy here.  I’ll probably get banned for this which is fine, but you sound like the other 4, make that 5 women against me counting C.  I have no ally.  If I do get banned, I’ve gotten all I need from Glow’s comments above.  I’m good.

[basil67]

7 minutes ago, Dazedandconfused05 said:

I was told I’m not supposed to differ from others views, but I’m not the bad guy here.  I’ll probably get banned for this which is fine, but you sound like the other 4, make that 5 women against me counting C.  I have no ally.  If I do get banned, I’ve gotten all I need from Glow’s comments above.  I’m good.

I'm not against you, I'm trying to get a better idea of what's going on.  It's just that having adult daughters who refuse to speak to you makes me feel that there is more to this than meets the eye.  We can all agree that there's three sides to every story: his side, her side and the truth.

Do I take it that you have already asked your daughters how to fix your relationship, they've pointed out what they see but you view things differently?   What views do they and others hold which you don't agree with?  

 

[Dazedandconfused05]

24 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Do I take it that you have already asked your daughters how to fix your relationship, they've pointed out what they see but you view things differently?   What views do they and others hold which you don't agree with?  

I should give some background on my girls.  Oldest is very smart, was accepted into a very good university but got into the wrong crowd and developed a drug problem.  Give huge credit to my wife for pulling her out of it.  I was there for support but 90% credit goes to my wife.  However I was the one going down to bail her out of jail more than once.  So I really can’t blame oldest for her alliegence to her mother.  Plus oldest and I had a huge argument over the EA 4 years ago. She never believed any of it even though evidence was right there in front of her.  We haven’t had much to say to each other since then, although I have tried to go see her and I’ve taken her to lunch a couple times.  We did have a nice family trip to Tahoe right before COVID.  
 

The youngest was my sports star. Her main complaint with me now is I pushed her too hard, which I probably did.  But I was out there in the driveway with her.  Practicing her volleyball serves etc.  Thats got to count for something. 

And I want to say that I love my wife.  We met when she was 15 and I was 17.  I’m crying as I write.  But the last 5-6 years she has changed.  Getting angry with me over trivial stuff and very very cold.  Not just in the bedroom but not kidding around with me like she used to,  no hugging or kisses or touching.  

[glows]

4 hours ago, Dazedandconfused05 said:

I should give some background on my girls.  Oldest is very smart, was accepted into a very good university but got into the wrong crowd and developed a drug problem.  Give huge credit to my wife for pulling her out of it.  I was there for support but 90% credit goes to my wife.  However I was the one going down to bail her out of jail more than once.  So I really can’t blame oldest for her alliegence to her mother.  Plus oldest and I had a huge argument over the EA 4 years ago. She never believed any of it even though evidence was right there in front of her.  We haven’t had much to say to each other since then, although I have tried to go see her and I’ve taken her to lunch a couple times.  We did have a nice family trip to Tahoe right before COVID.  
 

The youngest was my sports star. Her main complaint with me now is I pushed her too hard, which I probably did.  But I was out there in the driveway with her.  Practicing her volleyball serves etc.  Thats got to count for something. 

And I want to say that I love my wife.  We met when she was 15 and I was 17.  I’m crying as I write.  But the last 5-6 years she has changed.  Getting angry with me over trivial stuff and very very cold.  Not just in the bedroom but not kidding around with me like she used to,  no hugging or kisses or touching.  

I'd focus here on whether you want to stay in this marriage or not or divorce when the time comes (consult with your lawyer). Whatever you choose make the right choice for yourself, not to one up or take revenge or get back at your wife or anyone else. Whether she cheated or not, don't let it consume you. 

You will repair your relationships with your daughters or any other doubting family members as soon as others realize that you bring no harm to anyone and want to move on. If you suspect your wife of cheating end the charades and move on with your life. You don't need to keep breaking yourself over a person who has already checked out regardless of the past. Start over.

[Wiseman2]

Listen to your lawyer. Cool off. You've had jealousy issues for 35 years. And recurring issues with your daughters.

You're away a lot, you believe your wife drinks too much and flirts too much.

You're chronically threatening divorce, damaging your family with controlling behaviors and coming off as a victim.

Then you try to use your kids for divisive purposes and expect them to take sides in your manufactured chaos and drama.

Anyone who has a divorce lawyer on speed dial has control problems.

It's odd you won't seek marriage counseling. Get the cards on the table.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Wiseman2

[Acacia98]

9 hours ago, basil67 said:

Also, why are you involving her in this matter?  This is between you and your wife.

 

That was all that I could think. 

OP, how exactly were you expecting your daughter to react? This is the most awkward thing you could possibly drag her into.

[pepperbird2]

Is there anyone "in real life" that you can talk to about all of this? Someone who can provide you with a good sounding board you can trust?

Just based on your words, I wouldn't trust your wife. It sounds like she may have a problem with alcohol, and in my experience, you can't trust someone when they're drinkng.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:03 PM, Dazedandconfused05 said:

Both my daughter and wife say I’m crazy.  Am I?

I think they were trying to ease me into a wife swap.  Opinions?

What is your opinion of of a 3 way with my wife, B and C?  I think it happened starting shortly after the polygraph.   At the very least I think B has had sex with my wife with Cs permission.  

I can’t take it any more.  I told my lawyer I want out.  He says I should stay away from the house and cool off for several months which I am ok with.  He said we need to have everything ready though should we decide to proceed in 6 months or so.  I go see him Thursday.

I'm sorry to see your daughter calling you crazy which shows a lack of support from her. Your concerns are completely valid and you are right to attempt to have them addressed. Good move to line things up with lawyer. Have you been a pushover in the past? The way your wife and daughter are acting made me wonder. 

Don't suppress your feelings or hunches. If it's important for you to get to the bottom of this, then do so. Your wife owes you certain things like honesty, decency, and respect. If you feel she's failing you in these areas, then you are right to investigate further and protect your own interests. 

It was my impression, for whatever it's worth, that B and C have a sexually liberal or sexually open marriage. I even thought that maybe B enjoys a bit of cuckold from the fact he doesn't mind his wife grabs other men's penises. I think maybe your wife has gotten caught up in the idea of this 'sexual liberation' without enough consideration for how it affects you. I thought it possible that your wife has slept with C or maybe both. The way she looked at C's 'member' in the hot tub hopefully tells you if it was her first time seeing it. 

Overall, I'm trying to give you the validation to know that you're not crazy. Now go do what you need to do to protect yourself and get the information you need. 

[BaileyB]

I think this would be a much easier decision if it wasn’t for your daughter’s and the fact that they have “sided” with their mother. That makes the situation infinitely more complicated - which is why it’s very unfortunate and inappropriate for them to be involved. 

[Dazedandconfused05]

Wow, these replies are all over the place, but I thank all of you for taking the time to reply.  I had a long talk with my brother last night, he doesn't believe me either.  The thing is, my wife is LOVED by all of my family and of of course her friends and family.  My attorney is also my friend, he is really the only one who believes me.  One reason he understands is because he has been around C in social situations.  During the second crotch grab, he was one of the recipients.