New girlfriend I'm seeing is good friends with an ex love interest - how should I proceed

[slingmansling]

We are both 28, a heterosexual couple. We've known each other for only about 3 months, so it's very new. My problem is with establish boundaries around contact with ex love interests/sexual partners. But before that, I'll try to give as much context here as possible.

The girl is very nice, attractive, interesting. She's ambitious and very funny. She's a firecracker, and is just pure fun to be around in general. She has some annoying characteristics, but so does everybody, myself especially, but in general, I haven't met anyone this interesting and cute in a long time. At least in my head, now we are at a stage where we try to get to know each other better in a committed setting, to see if we are long-term material.

Over the course of that 3 months, we became quite close, and somehow organically we started discussing boundaries, hopes, and needs. As I think everyone should at some point. I was extremely happy with how responsive she was to it. Even the ones she didn't really understand, she seemed to care about what I had to say when I opened up. For example, I have a rule due to my bad experiences in the past, that with every new serious sexual partner I go and get checked out - it's not about trust, it's about health. Usually, it's always a difficult discussion, but here it was: "oh, you surprised me with that, I never had that come up from a new partner - but I understand it, and if it's important for you, let's do it'. And she did it, with no prodding. It was really nice to see this kind of a response.

From what I know, she came out out of a serious relationship 2 years ago which lasted for many, many years. As for me, last 2 years I put a stop to dating, after a set of unhappy relationships. I went to intensive therapy (3 times a week for more than 3 years) to fix my own part of disfunction in those - codependency due to childhood emotional abuse. Apart from that I focused on myself, build a really good career, improved my self-esteem, cut off toxic friends from my life, got a whole bunch of new ones etc. And here lies the problem... As part of my recovery and self-improvement, I started to organically avoid ambiguous situations, emotional enmeshment, leading people on, seeking external validation, etc. and the end result of that, quite organic not deliberate, was that I stopped keeping in contact with ex-FWBs, staying friends with failed love interests. I don't mean to say I stopped saying hi to them on the street or anything, or to reply to once-a-year birthday wishes. I mean I stopped having ongoing, close relationships with people whom I had sex with and stopped, or who were interested in me, or I was interested in them romantically. I don't hang out at their home, I don't drink with them, etc. I did it organically, with no good-byes or whatever, we just drifted apart. I had a clear head for myself, and also for when after a year I wanted to start being open to meeting a new person for a romantic relationship. So you see my values changed in that, in my head, for much better. I think through that subconscious process of letting go of all this, I established a boundary for myself that I am quite close with...

But my new girlfriend sees it differently. She remains friends with an ex Tinder date, who she said she met a year ago, and soon they both realised it's not going to work for one reason or another, and they remained friends. She says there is nothing romantic going on. She often calls that person, and he calls her. He pops up for unannounced visits. They go grab a coffee at his place, or at hers, from time to time. Go for a short walk, talk about his new romantic interests on Tinder, art, etc. He's single. It seems they are quite close.  She volunteered all that info gradually as we became closer, and is never secretive about it. Obviously she doesn't give me detailed info of her daily activities, but whenever it became relevant she simply says she sees that dude. 

She says she doesn't have any on-going contact with any of her long-term exes. And that she has some contact with people who expressed interest in her that she rejected, but it's limited and via facebook, more of a concern thing than anything. If it was me I wouldn't because I have strong boundaries about not leading people on - I block them if I feel they feel any hope for me which I feel I cannot provide, my friendship is not something I give out easily, especially if it hurts another person. But it's such a small thing and I don't know more details, so I can ignore it. Leaving it just out for context.

Also, I don't think having friends of the opposite sex as a bad thing. I am 100% for it. However, ex lovers, romantic interests, crushes, and people who expressed interest in someone - make me uncomfortable. For myself, and for my partner. They just do.

Obviously she had that friend before I came to the scene and she is free to associate with whomever she wants. But I have to admit I feel jealous and uncomfortable about it. I'm ok with feeling jealous. I think a lot of people would, and it's just a part of me to be uncomfortable about a person I care about to spend time one on one very often with someone they had sex with and considered a relationship with.

And I also think that it's not a black and white thing. If say, someone had a long-lasting friend, from childhood, whom they had a fling with at some point, I would feel jealous before I met that person, but I think I could learn to be ok with it for the benefit of my partner.

But here, it's literally a dude who she met on Tinder not that long before me, that she spends a lot of time with. It's difficult and I feel threatened - there is no denying that. On top of this being something I learnt not to do. So you see my problem.

I discussed it with her. I explained to her my vulnerability and how it makes me feel, with as little judgement as possible. It was extremely hard not to go into controlling mode, but I think I did a fairly good job at that. I do trust her, she gave me no reason not to, and some reasons to do. I just find that situation uncomfortable and unnecessary from my point of view. And I said as much. It was a very difficult conversation to have. She said she can see my point of view, but said that friendship is important to her. I try to give people as much benefit of the doubt, and learnt to trust people until they prove not-trustworthy. I try to use compassion and empathy when discussing boundaries. It is mine, I stand by the sentiment of it, but she is not me, and is receptive to my concerns. Basically she validated my concerns, not by agreeing that something is going on, but by saying she understands how I could feel that way, and since she understands it she was open to a compromise that I would want to meet the guy, see their vibe, etc.

I honestly don't think there is a reason why anyone should hang out one on one with an ex, or ex fwb. That's like adding a third person with all their subconscious motives into the mix of trust - which is a hell of a burden to ask your partner to take on. Not unreasonable completely, if it's a really, really good friend. But here it's for a friend off Tinder of no longer than a year?

But I am not her. Maybe she experiences friendships differently, she is her own person. It's a hell of a benefit of a doubt to give for me, but there is no other way to build vulnerability I guess and I learn to trust people as much as possible. And after all it's a very fresh relationship, and people don't just cut off people from their lives like that once they sleep with somebody new - I understand that completely. While I would hope for someone to be completely unhooked emotionally when they start dating, life is not perfect, and ironing out differences takes some time and we all have to deal with ambiguity.

So my conclusion is to give my benefit of the doubt, with the hope that it all resolves itself, and with a very small possibility I could learn to live with that if I learn the nature of their friendship. Maybe, we'll see. I'm very careful about my own safety and emotional well-being. She is open, and ready to compromise. So am I. But how in the earth do I do that without seeming controlling... I can't start going asking "oh, did you see your ex-Tinder date today?" "oh hi, have you already decided to spend less time alone at this guy's house, where are we with that?" How do I establish boundaries around that with love and compassion and at the same time self-preservation? Can I say I don't like you spending time alone at his apartment until I meet the guy? How in the world would I execute that? Please help...

But more importantly, how do we remain growing closer while negotiating a boundary like that? 

TL:DR - a new girlfriend is friends with an ex romantic interest, who isn't a life-long friend, but an ex Tinder-match, and a mate of less than a year, and spends a lot of time one on one. I told her it made me feel uncomfortable, not for lack of trust, but because it's too much of a boost in the uncertainty at the beginning of the relationship. She agreed that it would made her uncomfortable being in my shoes, and agreed to "let her fix it", and proposed a compromise in that she would limit her contact with him until I get to meet this person. That is one stretch of my boundary, which I stand by, and an exercise in empathy, but if she keeps treating my concerns with respect - that is fine. But how do I execute that? How do I continue to address the issue, without seeming controlling etc. ?

Edited August 3, 2021 by slingmansling
fix

[Cookiesandough]

1 hour ago, slingmansling said:

She remains friends with an ex Tinder date, who she said she met a year ago,

You could’ve just wrote this. IMO, you’re not irrational as hard as you’re trying to see yourself that way. Close friends with someone you dated from Tinder is not normal.  You’ll get your “open minded” people want to say it’s possible or completely innocent on all sides, but no way I’d go anywhere near srs with a dude who thought that way or thought this was a good idea and don’t fault you for feeling that way either., There are literally so many other people in the world to be friends with. I’m sure there are some “annoying characteristics” with someone who’d do that 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[d0nnivain]

It bugs you & you are allowed to be bugged by it.  You can ask her to sever the friendship but if she doesn't, are you prepared to drop her?   If you are not, she will think you are a doormat.   If this is your boundary, enforce it.  She gets to chose to keep him & drop you if she doesn't agree with your boundary.  

If they are truly just friends, it may be OK, but I would want to meet the guy & decide for myself if she's telling the truth or if he is more of an orbiter waiting in the wings & therefore a threat to your relationship.  

[slingmansling]

10 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

It bugs you & you are allowed to be bugged by it.  You can ask her to sever the friendship but if she doesn't, are you prepared to drop her?   If you are not, she will think you are a doormat.   If this is your boundary, enforce it.  She gets to chose to keep him & drop you if she doesn't agree with your boundary.  

If they are truly just friends, it may be OK, but I would want to meet the guy & decide for myself if she's telling the truth or if he is more of an orbiter waiting in the wings & therefore a threat to your relationship.  

I don't have a boundary that says: "I won't date people who are friends with their exes or ex dates" - that is way too black and white and not nuanced enough for me. It's other-oriented. It's not a boundary, it's a defence against the possibility of abandonment. And I think that is a ridiculous mindset to approach dating with.

I do have a boundary that says: "I won't be treated with disrespect, cheated emotionally or physically". And while I suspect that a close relationship with an ex date is disrespectful for the very high probability that it's an orbiter or has unresolved feelings. I simply cannot pretend to know if that's 100% true. I think the respectful thing would be for any partner to disclose it fully, understand the discomfort it brings, and to try to resolve it.

In other words, I agree with you. What I would 100% want to happen is for them to pause their one on one meetings, to meet the guy, and make my own mind about this - with a small possibility of learning that it's perfectly ok. Should that not happen I am ready to drop her, yes. 

The problem is, I don't know how to go about it - how to execute such a compromise. And if the request to pause their one on one meetings is ok to make. What do you think?

[d0nnivain]

8 minutes ago, slingmansling said:

In other words, I agree with you. What I would 100% want to happen is for them to pause their one on one meetings, to meet the guy, and make my own mind about this - with a small possibility of learning that it's perfectly ok. Should that not happen I am ready to drop her, yes. 

The problem is, I don't know how to go about it - how to execute such a compromise. And if the request to pause their one on one meetings is ok to make. What do you think?

Suggest that the 2 of you go hang out with [the tinder orbiter] but call him by name. Say you'd like to meet him.  If she gives you grief that is a red flag.  If she makes excuses or puts you off, that is at least a yellow flag.  

After you meet him then you can tell her that your observations indicate that he's not just her friend & you'd really appreciate it if you could put some distance in the "friendship."

Own up to being a bit jealous.  Jealousy gets a bad wrap but it is a human emotion.  In a good, healthy, loving relationship if one partner admits that certain specific behaviors bring out the old green eyed monster, the other partner needs to be sensitive to that & avoid triggering it.  When they don't seem to care, or worse, gaslight somebody who has admitted the insecurity that is a problem. 

[glows]

You're automatically putting yourself in an uncomfortable situation by dating someone who keeps ex-romantic interests around and it's an awkward position to put a new boyfriend in. If you're ultimately not ok with it or this position it puts you in, what's stopping you from ending the relationship? She cannot be that great if she's not compatible with you or your views. 

She's fortunate that she's dating someone who's very bendable and pliable or putting this much thought or interest in. A lot of people couldn't care less and would have stopped dating someone like this. You've put in the legwork cleaning up your past and ex-connections but she hasn't. There's a mismatch there and if you choose to stay be prepared to do more handholding and coaching, at the risk of appearing controlling or stiff about your boundaries. 

[slingmansling]

5 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

Suggest that the 2 of you go hang out with [the tinder orbiter] but call him by name. Say you'd like to meet him.  If she gives you grief that is a red flag.  If she makes excuses or puts you off, that is at least a yellow flag.  

After you meet him then you can tell her that your observations indicate that he's not just her friend & you'd really appreciate it if you could put some distance in the "friendship."

Own up to being a bit jealous.  Jealousy gets a bad wrap but it is a human emotion.  In a good, healthy, loving relationship if one partner admits that certain specific behaviors bring out the old green eyed monster, the other partner needs to be sensitive to that & avoid triggering it.  When they don't seem to care, or worse, gaslight somebody who has admitted the insecurity that is a problem. 

You know what, that seems like a good advice. It both acknowledges my jealousy and makes it seem like I give the benefit of the doubt. And shows my interest in her life. I cannot imagine being in that situation, but if I was, and that was really a friend, I would be stoked to have him meet my new gf.

Should it happen, what signs would I look for to ascertain if it's more than friends? I'm a dude, and quite bad at reading people. Obviously if he gets territorial or tries to one up me, but anything else?

My only concern is what if the dude refuses to make plans like that? How would I proceed with that, what does that tell me. Again, if it was really just a friend, he would be stoked to meet the new bf. I would. What if he is like anxious and can't do it or something?

[d0nnivain]

If the guy refuses there is not much you can do.  Neither you nor your GF can control that.  But I would ask therapist like Qs to your GF to help her come to the obvious conclusion: 

Why do you think he doesn't want to hang out with me?  

Is he dating anybody? 

How would you feel if I spent a lot of free time alone with a female friend?  

With respect to the time they spend together, location plays an impact.  I have some good guy buddies I made friends with other the years through work.  I have lunch with them every so often without DH but it's lunch in a restaurant, not somebody's house.  On the extremely rare occasion it's an evening thing, DH & their SOs know & are welcome.   DH would rather be excluded because I tend to talk shop with those guys & those conversations bore by husband to tears.  DH knows these guys & is fine with them. It's about  transparency & trust.  

On one level you give people enough rope to hang themselves.  Trustworthy people don't even get entangled.  

When you meet the guy you are going to know if he's up to no good or if he really is just a friend to your GF.  Her friend will befriend you or tease her.  A rival will be too close to her & will act like he won something by revealing bits about her you don't know like he has some inside track with her.  You will be able to sense a rival if he's not an ally.  

Edited August 3, 2021 by d0nnivain

[slingmansling]

22 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

If the guy refuses there is not much you can do.  Neither you nor your GF can control that.  But I would ask therapist like Qs to your GF to help her come to the obvious conclusion: 

Why do you think he doesn't want to hang out with me?  

Is he dating anybody? 

How would you feel if I spent a lot of free time alone with a female friend?  

With respect to the time they spend together, location plays an impact.  I have some good guy buddies I made friends with other the years through work.  I have lunch with them every so often without DH but it's lunch in a restaurant, not somebody's house.  On the extremely rare occasion it's an evening thing, DH & their SOs know & are welcome.   DH would rather be excluded because I tend to talk shop with those guys & those conversations bore by husband to tears.  DH knows these guys & is fine with them. It's about  transparency & trust.  

On one level you give people enough rope to hang themselves.  Trustworthy people don't even get entangled.  

When you meet the guy you are going to know if he's up to no good or if he really is just a friend to your GF.  Her friend will befriend you or tease her.  A rival will be too close to her & will act like he won something by revealing bits about her you don't know like he has some inside track with her.  You will be able to sense a rival if he's not an ally.  

I absolutely love this advice. Partly because before I went to therapy and fixed my self-confidence I would not simply get jealous, but be agonising over the possible threat of something happening and would fawn or fight. And while fighting for boundaries is good, fighting from a position of crippling fear, is just bad form and led to many bad things in my life. Your approach is the perfect blend of positive action, benefit of the doubt, and approaching it from a position of self-confidence. I bet it's not for everyone, but I love it.

Someone above asked why I don't just drop a person who hangs out with an ex date, that she might not be that great if she requires this much patience. That is true, but I'm at a stage where I want to learn more about her and see if for now she's good enough. I have not that many feelings at this point - I certainly learnt my lesson of codependency to take things slow. Also I searched long and hard for something perfect, but it just doesn't exist, and there is some beauty in that fact. I sure have some blind spots in how I behave and present myself that could make someone uncomfortable and that I don't know of, I would love for someone to be curious enough to give enough rope for me not to get entangled in.

If at any point there's no transparency, or should she fail to go along with me wanting to meet this dude - I'm out.

Should she fail to see if that guys an orbiter - I'm out.

Should she fail to come to the obvious conclusion if that guy doesn't want to meet me - I'm out.

If he's really a friend - let's see what happens. 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by slingmansling
edit

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, slingmansling said:

She remains friends with an ex Tinder date, who she said she met a year ago, and soon they both realised it's not going to work for one reason or another, and they remained friends. She says there is nothing romantic going on. She often calls that person, and he calls her. He pops up for unannounced visits. They go grab a coffee at his place, or at hers, from time to time.

Are you exclusive? It sounds like they are dating. Dating 12 weeks is good time to observe if you are a good fit and her situation is too close for comfort for you.

So bow out of it because if you attempt to tell her who she can be friends with, hangout with, talk to etc., you'll come off as controlling, insecure and full of baggage.

 Basically you're incompatible about an issue that will be problematic down the road.

[IslandSanctuary]

I'd never go for it, it's the top of my list of deal breakers, the no.1 thing I looked for whilst dating is to find someone with the same attitude to me towards opposite sex friendships whilst in a relationship. 

It'll be hard but you basically have to show her you're willing to kick her to the curb over this. Ask her how she'd feel if you were friends with someone you used to date, or went out to the movies or dinner 1 on 1 with an opposite sex friend on a regular basis. If she digs in her heels then you have to drop her. Might be painful, I suggest throwing yourself into fitness or some hobby for a few weeks while you get over it, definitely don't get into drinking. 

Don't be a simp or go against your own values, you have to have a strong backbone here or you risk losing her respect and respect for yourself. 

Some people are totally ok with the whole 'we are just friends' thing,  I'll never understand it.

Edited August 3, 2021 by IslandSanctuary

[salparadise]

So what is this friendship based around? Are they both stamp or coin collectors? Are they both political junkies and love to discuss current events in depth? Martial arts, rock climbing, baseball? Actual friendships are based on some commonality. I do not believe there are exceptions. There is always a subconscious cost-benefit analysis going on, and both must derive some benefit. If there is no other commonality or benefit, it's bound to be that one OTHER reason men and women are drawn to each other. 

Personally, I agree with @IslandSanctuary about this. I would not allow myself to become vulnerable to someone who cavorts with ex-lovers. I violated this boundary once and suffered. Social anthropologists believe that women do this because the strategy of maintaining backups increases the odds of survival and the success of the progeny. Men play along because... well, you know.

Figure out what the commonality and benefits are and you'll have your answer. I wish I could be more optimistic for you.

 

[central]

You have particular difficulties with this because of your past.  Some people just generally have problems with such relationships.  I don't, and (in some cases) have been friends for over 20 years with a few women/lovers I dated briefly.

[Momma Zen]

It’s a tough one. As an ex military female, I have many male friends - none of whom were partners or anything but platonic. I can understand dating someone for a short while, figuring out they’re not right the more you get to know them but getting along as friends. IMO there’d have to be something there to continue a friendship straight after dating? I guess all going out together and seeing how they behave around each other. Maybe take a female friend to help read the situation?

[slingmansling]

23 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

If the guy refuses there is not much you can do.  Neither you nor your GF can control that.  But I would ask therapist like Qs to your GF to help her come to the obvious conclusion: 

Why do you think he doesn't want to hang out with me?  

Is he dating anybody? 

How would you feel if I spent a lot of free time alone with a female friend?  

With respect to the time they spend together, location plays an impact.  I have some good guy buddies I made friends with other the years through work.  I have lunch with them every so often without DH but it's lunch in a restaurant, not somebody's house.  On the extremely rare occasion it's an evening thing, DH & their SOs know & are welcome.   DH would rather be excluded because I tend to talk shop with those guys & those conversations bore by husband to tears.  DH knows these guys & is fine with them. It's about  transparency & trust.  

On one level you give people enough rope to hang themselves.  Trustworthy people don't even get entangled.  

When you meet the guy you are going to know if he's up to no good or if he really is just a friend to your GF.  Her friend will befriend you or tease her.  A rival will be too close to her & will act like he won something by revealing bits about her you don't know like he has some inside track with her.  You will be able to sense a rival if he's not an ally.  

I've applied your advice today, and it went completely differently than I expected.

I made a choice to approach it from a position of complete trust and open-mindedness, not in that I believe my boundary and value is wrong, only in that I trusted her when she said she thought it was her friend - for whatever that is worth. So I decided to do what you advised and I was ready to meet the guy, I had that as the next step to propose to her. So I called her today morning. I forced myself to be the least confrontational and judgmental just for the sake of that conversation - which I something that I would usually fall into in the past - and approached it as: "hey this whole [insert guy's name] situation is still bugging me, I don't know the answer yet, I would love to really take in what you're saying and let's come up with a solution - why don't you come over for a chat." I was really upbeat during it, like I'm excited to see her perspective and at the same time communicated how important it is for me because it's making me feel uneasy.

My plan was for her to come to my place, where I would propose to meet the guy to ascertain how I feel about him - giving her like the last possible stretch of the benefit of the doubt. But before she agreed to come over, she paused me and said: "I can see it really is bothering you, while I don't see anything wrong with it, I want to hear what's bothering you specifically about it, maybe I misunderstood before." Now this up-beat problem solving energy got to her I think. I said: "It is making me really uncomfortable, not for lack of trust, but because I feel it's making us being closer more difficult, is he a friend? help me understand better so we can figure it out". I was still upbeat and casual in my tone.

Then she started monologuing: "There is nothing physical now or romantic, I met him this and there, we dated for 2 months, then we became friends, he's a friend because we got close emotionally, that's why we see each other often and hang out one on one". Then she paused herself, and said "oh s***, now I know, I'm close to him emotionally, too close for comfort for me being in a new relationship, while there is nothing between us, this mixed with the fact that we were intimate, that makes you uncomfortable, I would be, is this it? It must be?". The more she talked the sadder her voice got. I said "I understand that you see him as a friend, but this is precisely it, it does make me uncomfortable, it makes me question whether I'm being respected - no judgement yet, but now you see." Like the last time I spoke to her I was giving the vibe of "what the f*** you are doing with this dude" and she got defensive, like that attitude made her not register what I said, and I said exactly the same thing, but with a hostile voice. But now she registered I think.

Hearing how uncomfortable she got, I said "I think that's it for the phone conversation, let's let that sink in, and try to talk in a few days face to face". All chill.

At that point I was thinking that if she really registered, I was ready to maybe approach the subject of meeting the guy in a few days.

10 minutes later, she wrote "I need to talk to you in person today, is it ok if I come?". Not knowing what to expect I said sure. 

She came late into the evening, and said: "While you can rest assured that we really were friends, I completely understand your discomfort, I would feel the same way. I am sorry I didn't think of it. I want to clear my head off things like that, and because of that and for the sake of your ease and us building stuff together, even at this early stage, I chose to quit my contact with that guy."

I didn't give her an ultimatum to cut him out. I mean I would want it, and hope for it, and possibly simply leave - all if the guy wasn't a friend and she refused to see it, but I didn't as of yet. So I was absolutely shell-shocked when she said it herself. I didn't know how to respond.

Then she said, "Once again I'm sorry, I shouldn't have put you in this situation. When you say what you want, it's f***ing attractive." And she kissed me.

And that was it. I don't know what to make of it. Like I'm blank. To be fair, in the past and throughout my life, I never used this mode of communication. I was always "my way or the highway" in speech and not in my heart. When I reversed it, I felt immense boost in confidence - regardless whether she follows through with that or what the outcome will be, I don't know. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by slingmansling
fix

[d0nnivain]

I'm so glad you got what you wanted in the end.  

Since she was so quick to jettison him you know this was not the above board "friendship" only she was making it out to be. Still she was able to put herself in your shoes & realize the damage she could potentially cause.  

When I first started dating my husband I was excited for him to meet my guy buddies because they are important to me.  I wanted my husband to like them  & to have whatever assurances that he needed that these guys were not threats to our relationship.  IMO that is a totally different mindset.  Now, a decade into our marriage, I whine because some of my buddies essentially dumped me for my husband.  lol   In the beginning DH would chuckle because many of these guys would go out of their way to reassure my husband.  He was regaled with many tales of how I'm a "cool girl" & even though I'm "hot" they all always respected me & that I had clear boundaries that nobody messed with. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by d0nnivain

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, slingmansling said:

it went completely differently than I expected.

She came late into the evening, and said: " I chose to quit my contact with that guy."

I was always "my way or the highway" in speech and not in my heart. 

You may have won this battle but you're going to lose in the long run.

When you come out of the gates with a frighteningly insecure, controlling request, she'll reconsider what's below the surface eventually.

She will tell her trusted friends and family and they will advise her about what a huge red flag what you're doing is.

Notice she doesn't want you to meet up and "observe and approve of" him. She just said she'd stop.

That's a red flag from her end. It means 'from now on I won't tell you and I'll just say "friends' because being truthful with you is a problem.,

Edited August 4, 2021 by Wiseman2

[glows]

It's bizarre you had to go through all of that to help her realize the friendship was inappropriate. Isn't it rather obvious and wouldn't a person be able to regulate or determine his or her own friendships as an adult by now and determine or make their own choices on what is comfortable or uncomfortable within a relationship? I'd have some trouble believing it myself but you went into this thinking you could be upfront and honest and see whether you both could compromise so I take my hat off to you for doing that.

Whether both of you do grow together after this experience remains to be seen. I do wish the best for both of you and hope you both can put this chapter behind you.