What just happened? I need your views.

[heartwhole2]

I've definitely read stories on forums that seem to impossible (oddly, they often fall under the "cuckold fantasy" banner) but they don't read like this to me.

I think OP wants this so badly for herself that anything that doesn't fit her narrative -- anything that creates cognitive dissonance -- gets altered and reinterpreted until it does. She's unwilling to abandon her thesis that this is a special love that will be a fulfilling relationship and so, when pressed, grasps at straws to explain away the stuff that doesn't fit. 

Likewise, MM is not a reliable narrator. And look, we all view the world through our own lens. But when what we believe and what's happening out in the real world completely conflict, then we must either let go of our beliefs or of reality.

I think MM is flattered. I think MM cares for OP. I don't think this is a love for all the ages. Why did he encourage OP to stay married when they discussed their marital problems? Why did he refuse to "turn his key" when BW asked for a separation? Why did MM ruin sex and then say, yeah, we'd better not anyway? Why did MM give a lengthy speech about how he's trying to save his marriage, and if he does, they can only be friends? I can't come up with a single answer that indicates in any way that he's seriously into OP or done with BW.

And then there are the things OP is clinging to. He kisses her tenderly. He says they've fallen in love. He wants to be friends even if they can't be lovers. Why can't he simply care for OP and enjoy the attention and the escape? 

OP, I worry about you continuing too far down a path based on really creative interpretations of the facts. I know you want to have MM AND you want it all to make sense. I'm sure the cognitive dissonance is driving you a little crazy. But not being able to control anyone but ourselves is a fact of life. Even if MM initiated divorce and proposed to you tomorrow, there would still be no guarantee this would be anything but a short lived thing. 

My strongest guess is that the "meet the wife" scenario is another one of his "scare her away without letting her down" situations. He knows that the odds that BOTH you and BW will play nice and get along are slim to none. If it goes south, hey, he tried to be above board and honorable. And which one of you is Plan A? Which one of you has he repeatedly refused to give up on? And which one of you gets him if that falls through? 

Don't you think he knows that the odds that you will want sex and commitment when you're forced to see him with his wife and play nice with her are slim? He's not an idiot, right?

If he doesn't say, "We will be together in the end, I promise," then that's not his plan. He's clearly stated his priorities/hopes are in this order:
A) save the marriage, remain friends with you (unless you would rather just be nothing than be friends)
B) move on from the marriage, and then "explore" things with you

I would also take note of the "he's fine if you never have physical intimacy" thing. Does he have a low libido? If yes, well go into that with your eyes open. But then again, he had sex twice with BW that we know about. So it's all functioning fine.

Look, I think he doesn't want to hurt you by telling you how much it means to him that BW is no longer Team Separation and is maybe Team Willing To Try. Because he was all, "Oh, it's fine, she'll never notice, let's get tested" before she learned about you. He thought she was done with the marriage so he was OK being with you. Now he knows he has a chance with her and that's his main priority. (Here we are back to you being powerless in this situation that was supposed to empower you.)

[RebeccaR]

13 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

My strongest guess is that the "meet the wife" scenario is another one of his "scare her away without letting her down" situations.

Exactly 

Also, we don’t know their work situation. Is he her boss? That would be baaaad.

[DingDang]

Quote

My strongest guess is that the "meet the wife" scenario is another one of his "scare her away without letting her down" situations. He knows that the odds that BOTH you and BW will play nice and get along are slim to none. If it goes south, hey, he tried to be above board and honorable. 

My BFF wanted to meet the OW when her H cheated on her. She wanted to see what she looked like and tell her to back the F off or she'd go to HR. Her H arranged the meeting. 

Also, when we had to meet with the OW in our situation, my H sent her an email and asked her to meet him at a restaurant. I'm sure she thought he wanted to rekindle the A. Imagine her surprise when I walked out. 

My point is that if MM and W are trying to R, he's going to do whatever W says to regain her trust. It's highly likely that you're walking into a trap. 

You know, if this is real.  lol 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by DingDang

[BaileyB]

3 minutes ago, DingDang said:

My point is that if MM and W are trying to R, he's going to do whatever W says to regain her trust. It's highly likely that you're walking into a trap. 

Which is why it’s not a good plan to take your children should this suggested meeting ever occur. One of many reasons why you shouldn’t expose your children to this situation…

[stillafool]

2 hours ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

He has chosen to end his marriage as amicably as possible and he needs my help doing that.

And how does meeting his wife in a park help to end their marriage.  What does he want you to say and do that will bring it to an end?

[BaileyB]

15 minutes ago, stillafool said:

And how does meeting his wife in a park help to end their marriage.  What does he want you to say and do that will bring it to an end?

In her fantasy, I think OP visions that the wife will meet her and realize that OP is a wonderful person, that they are truly in love, and she will graciously step aside. In her fantasy, he will land the plane safely in the storm and when the storm clears, OP will fly off into the sunset with her MM - true love will triumph in the end…

That said, it’s difficult to comprehend why a man would want to introduce his affair partner to his wife. As this is a three week flirtation, it’s a stretch to even call her an affair partner. As was said above, the obvious answer is that the wife (couple) want to demonstrate to the other woman that they are a team and the OW needs to back off - 

Edited August 13, 2021 by BaileyB

[Seliana]

2 hours ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

It kind of did, but it is not accurate. He hasn´t chosen his wife. He has chosen to end his marriage as amicably as possible and he needs my help doing that.

Does he need your help to wipe his ass too?

My apologies for being crass, but he's 60 freaking years old! He was able to start the marriage, now he needs to end it himself if he wants out. You're a crutch, not a partner and you're settling for an inept, conflict avoiding unmasculine man. 

2 hours ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I would have never been involved with a married man before. I did feel attracted to people in other relationships before in my life, but I always thought it was totally out of bounds. It served no purpose for me to have this mindset. Nobody - partocularly my ex- thought it was unfair to me when it came to having an affair with him. 

 

I understand the statistics, but you know, according to them, my husband should have chosen our marriage, only he did not. I have busted the statistics once. Maybe I can be the exception again...

 

I totally get your "humanizing all the charaters". I totally view her as a human being, and as you can imagine, I can picture what she might be thinking or feeling quite easily. I just wish she did not meka the same mistake I made: try to save a marriage that was already dead, stay and humilliate herself, and not accept that when it is over it is over. I wish she could get the hint that when your man is in love with someone else, it is over, and move on. For her sake as much as for ours. 

 

If nobody though it was unfair when your me cheated, then you need to dump them and find better quality people. That's total crap, it seems they have infected you, choose better!

But you aren't viewing her as a human being, you JUST referred to her as a character to be humanized, that's is some messed up thinking! She is not humiliating herself, you are! Her wayward worm of a husband doesn't have the balls to tell her he wants out and move out, he needs someone else to do his dirty work.

You know, I wish someone would tell that woman what's up, so she can kick his ass out, and you two can run off into the sunset together. After reading your weak justifications for your behavior, you deserve this poor excuse for a man,

 

[Iwantthisformyself]

2 hours ago, spiderowl said:

But WHY does he want you to meet his wife?  It does not make sense.  All this stuff about not seeing you as a witch, etc., none of it makes sense.  There is no need for her to meet you and vice versa, just because you happen to be close to the same guy. He can end his marriage without you meeting his wife.  His wife does not need you as a friend.  WHO exactly needs this meeting?

But it does! He does not want her to leave the marriage thinking he fell for some malignant woman. He believes she´s going to leave, but he doesn´t want it to be because of us. He wanrs me to meet me, see who I am, and calm down. I´m not asking him to leave her, I´m even willing to be their friend until it is resolved.

[Iwantthisformyself]

3 hours ago, Pumpernickel said:

Now this is a joke though, right? If you’re serious right now, please explain how you think you’re going to help a full-grown man in his 60s end his M on “better terms”? I find this very condescending, esp towards his wife. Also - how can you feel love and respect for a man who needs your help in ending his marriage?

But before I get ahead of myself here: did he actually ask you to come to his house and meet his wife, in order to end his marriage more respectfully? Or what exactly did he say? I don’t think he wanted you to meet his wife so he can get a more amicable separation. That’s your interpretation. I really think your imagination is running wild, generally speaking.

not to his house. He asked me to meet her in a public space. It will be a more amicable separation if it is not because of me. And it is not. It is because their marriage has been dead for a long time. We just happened to fall in live before its last breath.

[Iwantthisformyself]

3 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

These two accounts of what he has said completely contradict one another.

well not quite. He knows his marriage will end. Not that it is his choice. He has made it very clear that he would stay for his kid. BUT he does not want her to leave because of me. He wants her to leave because it is no longer working between them. So, if she meets me and sees that I am not some sort of vampire trying to destroy her, she will be able to face the truth of their marriage.  He says he´s sure what she imagines is actually worse than what she could actually see if she saw us interact, so if she calms herself down, she will be in a better state to make the decision to leave without so much hurt.

[Iwantthisformyself]

3 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

That's up to her, not you. Nor him. 

And if you genuinely believe a sit-down is going to happen with her, I have oceanfront property in Kazakhstan you might be interested in. 

Of course. If she does not agree to meet me, I´ll totally understand.

[Iwantthisformyself]

2 hours ago, spiderowl said:

But WHY does he want you to meet his wife?  It does not make sense.  All this stuff about not seeing you as a witch, etc., none of it makes sense.  There is no need for her to meet you and vice versa, just because you happen to be close to the same guy. He can end his marriage without you meeting his wife.  His wife does not need you as a friend.  WHO exactly needs this meeting?

He does. For her.

[Iwantthisformyself]

2 hours ago, BaileyB said:

It’s also frankly not true. (to be very clear, I’m not calling you a witch). As the woman who has aspirations to have a serious relationship with her husband - a relationship that would ideally (if OP had her way) require the end of this woman’s marriage, you do present a threat to her marriage. Meeting to show her that you are a “friend,” not a “foe” is ridiculous.  The idea that you could meet at the park with your children in an attempt to assure her that there is no threat from you is not only untrue, it’s manipulative and deceitful.

I happen to be in love with a man she is no longer interested in. They didn´t need me to break they marriage. They themselves made that happen. He just needs to reframe our relationshop for a while until she leaves, without completely losing contact with me.

[Iwantthisformyself]

1 hour ago, SoulCat said:

You are proving yourself to be quite the perfect OW material.
He is spoonfeeding you all sorts, and you are swallowing it whole.
He said she asked him to leave.
He said they aren't sleeping in the same bed.
He said he's only there for his child.
He said they're not having sex.
He said their marriage is over.
He said, he said, he said.
And you believe all of it as if it were the gospel truth.

If that wasn't enough, he is already doing the push & pull, hot & cold nonsense.
The weird sex date, the not texting much, the 'let's just be BFFs'.
And after some heavy-duty mental pretzelling, you somehow make it fit your narrative.
Everything he says or does, you accept it, you normalise it and you cling on for dear life.
 
Now he has come up with this insane idea of you meeting with his wife and you are actually considering going along with it.
Not only that, you are seriously contemplating involving your children in this utterly tone deaf plan.

You are lowering your (already pretty low) standards, bit by bit just so you can hang on to this love-of-the-ages romance novel you have written in your head.

You are clearly on a mission, and nothing any of us will say is going to sway you.
That's fine, non of us have any skin in this particular game. 
But you do, a lot of skin.
You better strap in tight, it's gonna be one heck of a bumpy ride.
 
 

It´s hard to respond to everything. I know you mean well. Thank you for caring for what may happen to "my skin". 

[spiderowl]

6 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

He does. For her.

Why does she need this meeting?  Has she asked for it?

[DingDang]

Quote

So, if she meets me and sees that I am not some sort of vampire trying to destroy her, she will be able to face the truth of their marriage.

You are, though. You are trying to take her man. And you 100% don't know the truth of their marriage.

Quote

 He says he´s sure what she imagines is actually worse than what she could actually see if she saw us interact, so if she calms herself down, she will be in a better state to make the decision to leave without so much hurt

Because it's so comforting to a BW to see her H interact so lovingly with another woman. 🙄 

You're straight up delusional.

[Iwantthisformyself]

1 hour ago, heartwhole2 said:

I've definitely read stories on forums that seem to impossible (oddly, they often fall under the "cuckold fantasy" banner) but they don't read like this to me.

I think OP wants this so badly for herself that anything that doesn't fit her narrative -- anything that creates cognitive dissonance -- gets altered and reinterpreted until it does. She's unwilling to abandon her thesis that this is a special love that will be a fulfilling relationship and so, when pressed, grasps at straws to explain away the stuff that doesn't fit. 

Likewise, MM is not a reliable narrator. And look, we all view the world through our own lens. But when what we believe and what's happening out in the real world completely conflict, then we must either let go of our beliefs or of reality.

I think MM is flattered. I think MM cares for OP. I don't think this is a love for all the ages. Why did he encourage OP to stay married when they discussed their marital problems? Why did he refuse to "turn his key" when BW asked for a separation? Why did MM ruin sex and then say, yeah, we'd better not anyway? Why did MM give a lengthy speech about how he's trying to save his marriage, and if he does, they can only be friends? I can't come up with a single answer that indicates in any way that he's seriously into OP or done with BW.

And then there are the things OP is clinging to. He kisses her tenderly. He says they've fallen in love. He wants to be friends even if they can't be lovers. Why can't he simply care for OP and enjoy the attention and the escape? 

OP, I worry about you continuing too far down a path based on really creative interpretations of the facts. I know you want to have MM AND you want it all to make sense. I'm sure the cognitive dissonance is driving you a little crazy. But not being able to control anyone but ourselves is a fact of life. Even if MM initiated divorce and proposed to you tomorrow, there would still be no guarantee this would be anything but a short lived thing. 

My strongest guess is that the "meet the wife" scenario is another one of his "scare her away without letting her down" situations. He knows that the odds that BOTH you and BW will play nice and get along are slim to none. If it goes south, hey, he tried to be above board and honorable. And which one of you is Plan A? Which one of you has he repeatedly refused to give up on? And which one of you gets him if that falls through? 

Don't you think he knows that the odds that you will want sex and commitment when you're forced to see him with his wife and play nice with her are slim? He's not an idiot, right?

If he doesn't say, "We will be together in the end, I promise," then that's not his plan. He's clearly stated his priorities/hopes are in this order:
A) save the marriage, remain friends with you (unless you would rather just be nothing than be friends)
B) move on from the marriage, and then "explore" things with you

I would also take note of the "he's fine if you never have physical intimacy" thing. Does he have a low libido? If yes, well go into that with your eyes open. But then again, he had sex twice with BW that we know about. So it's all functioning fine.

Look, I think he doesn't want to hurt you by telling you how much it means to him that BW is no longer Team Separation and is maybe Team Willing To Try. Because he was all, "Oh, it's fine, she'll never notice, let's get tested" before she learned about you. He thought she was done with the marriage so he was OK being with you. Now he knows he has a chance with her and that's his main priority. (Here we are back to you being powerless in this situation that was supposed to empower you.)

Come on guys! A BW and her husband set up an AP for a meeting and you thinkI AM delusional? Or my story is not true?

I believe the marriage is plan A. Not her. The intact family for his kid. But he knows it is not going to happen. 

What if the marriage is saved and we can continue our relationship? Why would it be so unbelievable that I could continue a relatioship with him even if he is married. His heart is with me. That is all I care about. He does not seem to willing to let me go, he´s also risking a lot getting us to meet each other, and he´s doing it so she can calm down and I can stay in his life while she finally decides to leave.

My strongest guess is that the "meet the wife" scenario is another one of his "scare her away without letting her down" situations You mean her? or me? I don´t think it is me...

 

I lked you comment about cognitive dissonance. I´m giving a lot of thought. The question to decide is which is the real reality and which is the illusion created by the dissonance. Because when we are together, it definitely is reals, tastes real, and feels real.

 

[Iwantthisformyself]

4 minutes ago, spiderowl said:

Why does she need this meeting?  Has she asked for it?

No. He proposed it. Her mind is going wild making all sorts of assuptions about me and us. He wants to disipate that.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Iwantthisformyself

[DingDang]

You watched a lot of Disney princess movies as a kid, didn't you? Yeah, you did. 

[DingDang]

Quote

Come on guys! A BW and her husband set up an AP for a meeting and you think I AM delusional?

We sure did. You know why? Because she needed to be told that she needed to be tested for HSV-2 and I damn sure wasn't going to let H meet with her alone. 

You have no idea what you're doing. I almost feel bad for you.

Edited August 13, 2021 by DingDang

[heartwhole2]

14 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I lked you comment about cognitive dissonance. I´m giving a lot of thought. The question to decide is which is the real reality and which is the illusion created by the dissonance. Because when we are together, it definitely is reals, tastes real, and feels real.

Good.

I totally believe you that it feels real. And maybe that would be enough in a world where we could compartmentalize and not have one romantic relationship impact our other romantic relationship. MM, to his credit, understands that he can't do both.

Every affair here feels real. My husband's affair felt real. People sometimes say, "What you have isn't real" to OW and I don't think that's fair. It's real; it's just flawed. It's impractical. It's harmful. It's doomed to blow up and hurt worse than it feels good now. The love you share is real and delicious but you have zero idea how it would work as a proper relationship after he separates. You have no idea if what makes it seem so good is it being just out of reach. You have no idea if he'd want to date other people if he weren't with BW. Two people getting along and falling in love really isn't that remarkable, and my heart breaks that you doubt you could do it with someone else. What often sinks a relationship (not even an affair, just a regular relationship) is that someone can't work through their family of origin issues, or they want different things, or they love each to pieces but the timing isn't right. Lots of people have love and are not married to other people but still don't last. "He loves me, therefore he will ditch BW and we'll be together" is a flawed thesis. He may very well think of you fondly as he rebuilds with BW.

 

23 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

What if the marriage is saved and we can continue our relationship?

But he made it clear that if the marriage is saved you'll just be friends. He gave you a choice, and that choice was: a) hope his marriage can't be saved separate from anything to do with you and then you'll explore things or b) remain friends, unless that's too hard for you, in which case he understands. He made no offer to combine exploring things with you with his marriage being saved. Are you going to keep trying to convince him to sleep with you?

[heartwhole2]

27 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

No. He proposed it. Her mind is going wild making all sorts of assuptions about me and us. He wants to disipate that.

He is willing to put you in an uncomfortable situation in order to put her mind at ease. He is proud that he hasn't had sex with you, and he wants her to know he's truly doing everything he can to save the marriage.

[BaileyB]

4 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

He is willing to put you in an uncomfortable situation in order to put her mind at ease. He is proud that he hasn't had sex with you, and he wants her to know he's truly doing everything he can to save the marriage.

Her needs come before your own OP. He is spending the weekend with her, he wants to reassure her, he doesn’t want to hurt her in any way…

Edited August 13, 2021 by BaileyB

[spiderowl]

49 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

But it does! He does not want her to leave the marriage thinking he fell for some malignant woman. He believes she´s going to leave, but he doesn´t want it to be because of us. He wanrs me to meet me, see who I am, and calm down. I´m not asking him to leave her, I´m even willing to be their friend until it is resolved.

Realistically, she's not going to calm down after being dragged along to meet his mistress!  What makes you think she would be?  I think he's totally lost touch with how she's feeling and he's luring you into a car wreck.

[heartwhole2]

39 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

My strongest guess is that the "meet the wife" scenario is another one of his "scare her away without letting her down" situations You mean her? or me? I don´t think it is me...

Yes, I do mean you. This is just so wildly inappropriate and disrespectful to you. If BW is requesting it, it's because she knows it will F with your head. All she has to do is be lovey dovey and treat you like an insignificant friend, and you will feel embarrassed and adrift. He has NOT said this meeting is for you two to present a united front to BW. He said this is all part of seeing if the marriage can be saved and if she can be reassured that you aren't a threat. If this request makes you get mad and break up with him, honestly that solves the little problem of him trying to get closer to BW at the same time as you are trying to get closer to him.