What just happened? I need your views.

[mark clemson]

On 8/8/2021 at 8:11 AM, Iwantthisformyself said:

 I just want to explore this relationship and see where it goes because I believe the connection that has been established between us is real and beautiful. My eyes are wide open, and I will continue this as long as I feel comfortable with what is going on.

13 hours ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I do not feel like I need to justify my behavior. My behaviour makes sense to me, and to him. Nobody else needs to understand it or agree with it. I came here looking for input that would perhaps make me think in directions that I had not considered, and it certainly has.

I am not afraid of having my heart broken or being outed by his wife.

 

Indeed there is little joy in living your life according to other people's morals or perceptions (within reason). And beauty or ugliness is, as they say, in the eye of the beholder.

There are those women in affairs who "want more" - they (eventually) wish the MM would leave his wife/family and "choose her". When that doesn't happen, they become distressed and sometimes he (now) becomes "the bad guy". IF that's really not you, then you're unlikely to experience that. However there is certainly a chance you will spend years of your life in this EMR with little to show for it once it ends. Given what he has stated about the impact of divorce on his kid I think there's very little chance he would choose to leave.

He are some thoughts for you:

- Don't be shocked when, even though he genuinely likes you, he stays put (you seem ready for that). Even if HE starts talking about leaving, take that with a very big grain of salt, as this may be more pipe dreams than a solid plan. Leaving a marriage is difficult for many people.

- Don't be shocked if he has to suddenly end it. This would be (presumably) due to his wife becoming increasingly uncomfortable with it and, essentially, telling him to stop seeing you. It's important to keep in mind that she no doubt would not be comfortable with what you are doing and might (understandably) step in to end things.

- Be aware that in just a few jurisdictions, it's possible for an affair partner (that would be you) to be sued in the event of a divorce (known as "alienatation of affection"). I say this not to scare you off from doing what you clearly wish to do, but to make you aware so you can contact a lawyer to confirm you're not in one of these jurisdictions. Although these lawsuits are rare (and I suspect, in many cases completely pointless), IF you happen to be, you probably want to take this into account in your decision making. So, it would make IMO sense to just ask a lawyer about it.

[heartwhole2]

1 hour ago, LynneVicious said:

Milavaneela- I completely agree. I am wondering though, that perhaps due to her own betrayal with her husband, she now has this mindset? That she’s so jaded, she’s subconsciously hurting someone else because of it. Or she hasn’t dealt with the pain of the betrayal. And it’s manifested as this. 

Op, can you shed some light on this? Have you worked through your betrayal at the hands of your husband? How long has it been and have you done any therapy for it? 

My guess is that having the MM as a confidante throughout her decision to separate and divorce allowed her to fixate on how good it felt to become close to another man rather than the loss of her marriage. And by all accounts her husband seems abusive so having a reason to divorce him may have been a relief. I worry that this has imbued the relationship with MM with so much special meaning that to lose it would be to face everything she has lost.

OP, you asked why OW are so upset when the affair ends (or even when it just continues on). That's because so often the relationship means, "I am wanted!" and is a temporary distraction from issues of self-worth. It's not just a romance; it's a salve for many unhealed wounds. The illicit nature also causes a high that is matched (or surpassed) by the low when the relationship is lost. If a MM wanting you meant you were wanted and worthwhile, then does his rejecting you mean you are undesirable and unworthy? All of a sudden there's no more distracting crutch and you must face all those old wounds with the new self-inflicted ones on top.

[GeorgiaPeach1]

You are only hearing his version of events. I bet a lot of things he told you would be news to his wife. Why don't you call her and get her version of events?

You are being played like a fiddle. Making himself out to be the victim with the new woman (you) is classic cheater behavior.

Of COURSE he seems wonderful. You are getting sweet nothings spoken to you and enjoying stolen moments, while his wife is the one who cares for him when he's sick, cleans up after him, deals with his morning breath and farts, and has to deal with bills, chores and childcare with him.

I think you are hurting because of your own failed situation, and you are looking to stick it to someone else (another woman, his wife) in order to feel better.

 

[ExpatInItaly]

What's that old expression?

Hurt people hurt people. 

[Peacelovesooners]

Reading through some of your recent posts, OP, it seems you have been hurt and damaged by your ex more than you are willing to acknowledge. It would probably be helpful to get some counseling for yourself before you enter into a new relationship, whether it’s with this person or someone else. You don’t think you will be hurt and you think the wife is a gentile person who will take whatever happens lying down. From someone who has witnessed this kind of devastation first hand,  neither of those things will happen. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Peacelovesooners

[Iwantthisformyself]

Hello again,

I have beed reading all your posts. Thank you for taking the time to think about my situation.

I see a common questions is whether I am subconsciously doing this ir that. To be honest, I am not doing any of these things you mention as possibilities that I know of. I have grieved the betrayal from my ex husband - believe me, I have lived every second of it with eyes wide open, tried to find a solution, waited, found a counsellor so as not to lose my mind, cried on my friend´s shoulder, cry curled up on the floor, and finally realised that it was what it was and I could not change that. I had to move on. Now, when it comes tu subconscious repercusions, if they really are subconscious I would not not about the, would I? that is the whole point of them being subconscious, right? When I go through things in my head I see them very differently. I am not hurting anybody because I was hurt: I was hurt and now I am moving on with my life. If MM´s wife finds these events hurtful, she will have to do the same. We all do, don´t we? Take whatever comes and deal with it.

I´m sure there is another version to the story: hers. But again, we all have our point of view of the situations that has to do with who we are and how we process things. It is up to her so process the state of her marriage from her point of view. MM processes his from his point of view, and I have no business processing the state of their mariage. I know well enough that what happens between two people in their marriage is practically inaccessible to third parties. What I know is how he views things. He makes his decisions based on that, and then again, how else could de make his decisions?

 

Of course bonding with him during my hour of need made things special between us. Isn´t that just the way it is with people? Donb´t we all invest in them in the context of a specific set of circumstances? I don´t see how that is different in my case.

I am discussing the whole MM issue with my therapist. She repeats I need to understand she cannot tell me what to do - which I do not expect her to_ but also that it is I who will live with the consequences of my actions. Fair enough. It´s the essence of human existence. Nobody is free from that. We all live with the consequences of what we choose to do or not to do. At this moment in my life, I prefer to live with the consequences of what I do, rather than the consequences of what I don't do. I choose to be the main character in my story, no matter how "tragic" the outcome may be. 

I totally get he might want to stop seeing me. I don´t think his wife has the power to stop our relationship. We are adults. She cannot "mother" him like that. He could choose to stop this for whatever reason, and so could I. I am ready for this. She may only choose to exit the situation of she is unhappy with it. That is as far as her rights can go. The only thing she can decide is what is acceptable and what is not for her. But she cannot tell him or me what to do or not to do. I do not believe he is thinking about leaving, though. I never did. If his marriage ends, it will be her ending it. But it does not make any difference to me: I Know he is staying for his kid. If she leaves and he can´t stop her, he will move on, but he won´t pull the trigger on the marriage. That has nothing to do with love.

As for moving forward with my counselling before going on with this relationship, I wonder. Is everybody expected to be "fixed" before thay live their lives? If that were the case, most of humanity would be put on hold until they are ready. I am doing the best I know for now. If that changes, my decisions will change. But I´m not putting my life on hold until someone - my therapist or society- decides that I am rady to live. I feel very much ready to live right now.

 

As for my ex H´s behaviuor, I suppose the reason he crosses boundaries with me is that I let him, for sure. But I have a good reason to let him: I want him to have direct and free acess to my kids. They miss him terribly, it has been an anourmous loss for them to stop living with their dad. He has the keys to the house for practical reasons. I do not comfront him about my phone and overlook his comments about the teacher because I believe it is pointless comfrontations to do that. And I do not want to comfront him any more for my kid´s sake. What matters is that I know in my heart he is being abusive and why, and I don´t engage him in any way that can affect him. I just let him do things like I am watching a madman in action. It has nothing to do with me.

[heartwhole2]

Alright, here we go again. When there's an analysis or suggestion you don't like or something hits a nerve, you go back and claim things are the opposite of what you said initially. 

[Paraphrasing:]
Isn't this an affair because of the physical intimacy he initiated?/Obviously what we have could never be considered an affair.
"I felt that [exH] was invading my life in every area of it"/"I just let him do things like I am watching a madman in action. It has nothing to do with me." I'm totally unaffected by my exH's abusive and controlling behavior, which I allow just because, meh, why not.
I'm concerned about the fallout of being discovered/we will never be discovered and if we are, BW will look bad, not us.  Etc. etc.

Look, I'm not throwing stones; I know I have a "deny/deflect/redirect" instinct when I first hear something I perceive as critical too. And then I try to be still with it and really sit with it. It's great that you are even here trying to do that, even if your reflexes make the narrative a bit confusing for the rest of us. But perhaps you'd save us all some time if you could compare what you are about to say with what you've already said, so we can work on the real issues and not the defenses.

Certainly when you've gotten out of a toxic relationship that you entered when you were young, you are allowed to go have some fun! The problem here is that you're trying to take a round peg [illicit relationship with a conflict avoidant man almost certain to end with him cutting off contact with you, so you will have to mourn the loss of 50% of your social circle while also feeling humiliated and hurt] into a square hole [I'm single so let me have some fun!]. This won't be fun. I am speaking out of concern for you. I want you to have good things in your life. It's not your fault that you don't know what good things look like because you've been denied them thus far in your life. If you can learn how to tell what is good and healthy and what isn't before you walk off this cliff, you will save yourself and others so much unnecessary suffering. You just can't see it because the delicious hormones of falling in love coupled with the ego boost of being wanted and desired are so hard to resist. It's like you're at the casino and you've just won a small pay-out and you're convinced that you will be the one person to beat the house if you keep going. We know that you won't; no one does. But damnit, there's such a thrill when you get those pay-outs that consequences be damned . . .

[BaileyB]

41 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I am not hurting anybody because I was hurt: I was hurt and now I am moving on with my life.

Ah, so you have seriously thought about this and made a conscious decision that you are entitled to pursue your own selfish interest at the expense of others.

I don’t know that I believe that. For, if I did, it would mean that you are truly that selfish and entitled. It would mean that you are lacking in empathy and remorse. 

41 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I feel very much ready to live right now.

Nobody here is suggesting otherwise. We are simply suggesting that while you have the right to live your own life as you please, you have a responsibility to do so in a way that does not hurt others. 

Perhaps you should consider pausing the counselling for a while… it seems at this point like you are wasting your money. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by BaileyB

[heartwhole2]

38 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I don´t think his wife has the power to stop our relationship. We are adults. She cannot "mother" him like that. He could choose to stop this for whatever reason, and so could I.

I agree that we can't control other people. (Except isn't that the whole rationale for why he wants to cheat with you . . . because she controls everything?) What will almost certainly happen is that she will say, "Um, hello, I agreed to a monogamous relationship when we got married. I did not agree to a marriage of three people. You can be monogamous or you can get out." And what do you think he will do then?

[BaileyB]

10 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

And what do you think he will do then?

He has already chosen - he has told OP that he can offer only friendship. A friendship with benefits, perhaps. Not even a relationship, in his words. But, when the wife finds out - because she will, she already suspects and OP is ridiculously transparent and careless - she will do as any wife would and demand fidelity from her husband. He will run home with his tail between his legs… blaming the OW who aggressively came onto him and pursued him against his better judgment and wishes… 

Edited August 9, 2021 by BaileyB

[basil67]

4 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

 He will run home with his tail between his legs… blaming the OW who aggressively came onto him and pursued him against his better judgment and wishes… 

At which point, they will combine teams and both actively hate the OP

[basil67]

51 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

At this moment in my life, I prefer to live with the consequences of what I do,

I take this to mean that you have reconsidered judging his wife if word gets out and your reputation is ruined.  And instead of judging her, you will shoulder all the blame?

[stillafool]

Well it seems you have everything worked out the way you want it.  I would suggest you at least change the password on your phone so your husband doesn't have access to it.  I doubt your personal phone records have anything to do with his kids.  So I guess you don't need LoveShack afterall or your Therapist.  Good luck with your life.

[RebeccaR]

1 hour ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

If MM´s wife finds these events hurtful, she will have to do the same. We all do, don´t we? Take whatever comes and deal with it.

Yes. You have suffered, now someone else has to suffer. Too bad she’s completely innocent 

[ExpatInItaly]

Did you date much before your ex-husband?

The way you talk about this very new fling with this MM sounds like a teen falling in love for the first time. It sounds like it's coming from a rather juvenile and inexperienced emotional place. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by ExpatInItaly

[mimic2021]

OP, this has nothing to do with your post but the longer I stay on this forum the more I understand my own past situation and myself better. 

It‘s so interesting to see that we‘re all so similar. One thing I am very secure in is knowing that no matter what - I will never become involved with an emotionally unavailable/married man again. 

OP, believe us. This will tear you apart. You think you are strong and you can handle this but the minute he drops you, goes NC and you come to understand that your fairytale was just a dirty little secret that hurt many people is when it hurts. And it will hurt a lot. 

From what you have written so far he doesn’t seem as invested as you are. He is not pursuing you. Do you really think he feels the same about you?  

No one here wishes you ill. Most of us have been through the same thing and know that this 100% won’t end well. And I say this especially since you have said that you have feelings for this man. 

As many have mentioned before, this will hurt you pretty badly because the reason you’re invested in this in the first place is that you’re not healed from your past relationship yet. If you would have been you would see how awful of an idea it is. It benefits you nothing. There’s nothing good that can come out of this for you. 

One day you will come back to this thread and chuckle at how delusional you were. At least I did after getting involved with a MM that broke my heart into many tiny pieces. 

What you have with him is not special. This is 1 to 1 a textbook affair. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by mimic2021

[Iwantthisformyself]

Thank you everyone for your replies. The fact that you care about how this might affect me really moves me, and although it seems to many of you that I have it all figured it out and I do not need your input, it actually makes me consider many things I would not consider without this forum. Therapy is therapy, but my therapist has never been in a situation like this, there are some nuances she just doesn´t get. Same with my friend. Not even me, havng been on the other side of all this as a BW have a clear vision of what things could happen from this side of the story.

Anyway, if things were confusing before, they are more confusing now. I finally got  a place from my good friend for us to meet and have intimacy. I saw very little of him at work today as we were super busy, so I just messaged him the address. Half an hour later he was there. He came in, we hugged, talked a little about our day, and he put a box of condoms on the table. He said: "I´m ready for this is if you are". I do not know why, but before I could actually realise what I was doing, the word NO came ut of my mind. He said: "I understand, but if this is what you want, we can do it". I said no again, this time purposefully. I guess I was dissapointed. It felt like delivery sex, to be honest "serving the customer on demand". I did not find the situation appealing at all, and I did not know what else to say... which is not usual for me...

So that is when he opened up to me: he said it was actually a good thing I did not want sex with him. What we have does not need sex to be intimate. He said he knew I was a good person and he did not want to complicate my life or play with my feelings. He shared that by the time I revealed my feelings to him, his wife had just asked him to move out. He had said no, and he did not know exactly where they were standing either back then or right now. She is still living at home, but he was not sure what was going to happen with them. He said he would not have entertained my feelings if he had not thought that his marriage was over and she was definitely leaving him. That´s why he said she wouldn´t find out or care if she found out. Now it  seems she does care he is utterly shocked and does not know what to do. She is not clear she wants to save the marriage, he isn´t either. But he can see she is struggling with all of this, not eating or sleeping well, sad or angry most of the time, and so he believes it is better if we do not take this step. Not right now, at least. He wants to continue to spend time with me and his feelings for me are very real, but he needs things to slow down a little.

I said I understood, was glad he would share that with me (truly, he seemed 100 % true, it felt like perhaps too much honesty for me) and after a few moments of awkward silence, we hugged very deeply and he left. He was carying groceries. I could see he was going back to his life. It really felt like goodbye in a way.

But then I started thinking, what if I had said YES? How would things have been different? Shouldn´t I have said yes after all? I really can´t make sense of all this...

Has this ever happened to anyone here? Since our story seems to be unfolding by The comprehensive guide to EMR, I hope someone can offer some insight about this if they have experienced it...

 

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

Therapy is therapy, but my therapist has never been in a situation like this, there are some nuances she just doesn´t get.

A therapist doesn’t have to have been in a situation before in order to provide wise counsel. Again, I think you are projecting here - this statement is made to fit your own narrative and support your decision to pursue this married man. And kindly, the only person who believes there is any nuance here is you - 

As to why you decided not to go through with it - perhaps you both have some moral compass after all. When the opportunity presented itself, you both paused because it didn’t feel good. He clearly has some work to do to figure out what he/they want to do about their marriage. And you, need to find yourself a nice single man…

Edited August 10, 2021 by BaileyB

[Pumpernickel]

13 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

A therapist doesn’t have to have been in a situation before in order to provide wise counsel.

Well, as much as I disagree with OP on everything else, I must say that I do not trust therapists no matter their education and degree if they have not been in a situation that is similar to my own. Generally speaking, I don’t really trust therapists much when it comes to advice. They don’t really know you other than you’re a client that pays them, they can’t really relate to your situation, sure they have a Theoretical approach to certain circumstances, but let’s be honest ——-> their place is their place, which is they’re gonna listen to you because you pay them. That one hour of somebody listening to you once a week for money might – if you’re lucky - help you figure yourself out. But that’s about it. I think it’s always better to listen to yourself or your intuition and to friends and family who have been through similar situations (or a board like this one), when it comes to complex interpersonal relationships of OP’s type. No offense. But I think that therapists and counselors are a little overpaid when it comes to that particular “service”. 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, Pumpernickel said:

Generally speaking, I don’t really trust therapists much when it comes to advice. 

And nor should you trust one.  Therapists aren't supposed to give advice, they are supposed to help the client sort themselves out.   That said, it's my opinion that discussions around morals and ethics certainly wouldn't go astray for some.

[heartwhole2]

OK, so in all of your talks he omitted this big detail that she wanted him to move out and he didn't know where they stand. It certainly makes his complaint about how she didn't make a fuss about him moving out of the bedroom odd, no? And it also puts a dent in your impression that he is 100% honest with you and also gives more importance to them being intimate again.

OP, I think you have found someone with little insight into himself. This is an area of concern for you as well, and this is precisely why choosing him as your romance for the ages seems like a train wreck. How can he go from "here's a box of condoms, get on the bed!" to "of course we shouldn't have a physical relationship"? Again, you are excited that he feels honest, but his honesty means little if he has no clue what he wants or feels.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. If you continue this with him, you will continue to get contradictory actions and have no idea what to make of them.

[Pumpernickel]

14 minutes ago, basil67 said:

discussions around morals and ethics

Clearly not the subject matter of any educated counselor in the world ever

[Pumpernickel]

15 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

OK, so in all of your talks he omitted this big detail that she wanted him to move out and he didn't know where they stand.

This would clearly be a big omission 

[heartwhole2]

This also makes her question about if he had a relationship with someone make so much more sense. What seemed like him being super duper honest despite the awkwardness of admitting that you might be starting an affair to your wife, turned out to be him telling someone whose request for a separation he had denied.

OP, we all deserve a lot better than this. We deserve someone who KNOWS they want to be with us. We deserve someone who has enough self-insight and agency to make it happen the right way.

Look, I don't have a problem with you dating a separated man, though I would advise you not to date someone with a whole bunch of red flags, single or not. But WTH is going with this guy's marriage? He doesn't even know. And he hid the fact that he was kind of separated from you and instead painted himself as a put upon martyr. And now your arrival on the scene has possibly caused his wife to have more interest in him (because affairs don't happen in a vacuum -- they impact what is happening in the rest of the MP's life too), or at least be willing to see if anything is there, and since he refused to move out or even tell his potential girlfriend that his wife had asked him to, it doesn't seem like he wants this marriage to end either. His wife is not eating or sleeping well . . . clearly not the reaction of someone who is detached.

And here you are, at least some of the time convinced that this a rare, ideal love. With the guy with the box of condoms.

Remember when I pointed out that we need a reliable narrator to make sense of your story? Well so do you. Half the problem is that you're getting only some pieces of the puzzle from him and, like us with your story, you're trying to put them together in a way that makes sense. But he's withholding some and painting over others and there's just no way to know which end is up.

[basil67]

2 hours ago, Pumpernickel said:

Clearly not the subject matter of any educated counselor in the world ever

I don't understand