What just happened? I need your views.

[heartwhole2]

If you want to know what I think you should do . . . I think you have to acknowledge that he isn't sure if he's done with his marriage yet. And unlike the vast majority of people in this forum, he understands that having an affair means he's pulling the trigger on his marriage. I give him props for that.

And if you care about him, then I think you should reach down deep and find your selfless love. I think you should have a direct conversation about what you want and how you want it with him, but you understand that he's unsure of where things stand with his wife, and you will give him some time and space to figure it out.

People pleasing and conflict avoidance often go hand in hand. I think he doesn't want to upset you -- he cares about you. He doesn't want to let you down, but he's clearly not ready to have a physical relationship with you. That's just about the only thing that's 100% clear in this whole situation.

[mark clemson]

16 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

Yeah it's classic human psychology to want what you can't have (cough, cough, affairs) so some betrayed spouses react with renewed interest in the cheating spouse. It's a deeply instinctual response borne out of the subconscious fear of your mate abandoning you and threatening your and your offspring's survival. Nature even rewards this instinct with hysterical bonding (google it).

I'm not sure how well this applies to OP's specific case, but I'd say generally that this is an excellent insight and often applies well to both WSs and BS's.

[heartwhole2]

7 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I'm not sure how well this applies to OP's specific case, but I'd say generally that this is an excellent insight and often applies well to both WSs and BS's.

Well the BW had asked for a separation and was paying little attention to her husband until she heard he was maybe seeing someone, and then they had sex twice. But we're hearing that third hand so we can't really know the ins and outs.

[mark clemson]

^^ true.  I'm starting to wonder if Iwantthisformyself is actually a backup plan here, or at least partly that. In addition to being a romantic interest that he flirts with and/or has an emotional connect with, perhaps.

Something to consider OP.

At any rate I hope you don't mind if I quote that in other posts now and then. It's really quite good IMO.

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, heartwhole2 said:

Well the BW had asked for a separation and was paying little attention to her husband until she heard he was maybe seeing someone, and then they had sex twice. But we're hearing that third hand so we can't really know the ins and outs.

Unfortunately for OW/OM this happens often with married people who are some what on the fence about separation/divorce.  Seeing their spouse move on to someone else reignites their attraction to them.  That is why it's best to stay out of other people's marriages.

[vla1120]

On 8/7/2021 at 11:28 AM, Iwantthisformyself said:

He says he is not the cheating type and I believe me.

You mean you believe him? As cheaters do, he is lying to you...clearly, he IS the cheating type - right down to the "we sleep in separate rooms" flimsy excuse. 

You divorced your husband because he cheated on you. How ironic.

[Iwantthisformyself]

Thank you for your replies. I need to go slowly with typing my response.

First all, I see agree with the post that states he clearley cares about me. I feel it. I know you only get the facts from my posts, but those facts do not stand in a vaccum. There is a lot of feelings wrapping them. I definitely see how your vision is pure logic, no feelings involved. That is why I keep coming back here. I need some of that. My perspective is the opposite: lots of feelings and a little logic. So reading you helps me consider things a little nit more rationally.

I totally get the idea that I need to consider the possibility of searching for my selfless love for him, as the destiny of his marriage is uncertain. I want to make it super clear that I know in my heart his feelings are with me. I am his primary emotional attachment person right now, and he is mine. If his marriage should continue or not, it is not up to me to decide, but it will certainly not be out of love if it does, though I guess I´ll have to accept it for whatever reason he chooses to continue. I am fully aware that my role in his PRACTICAL life is very small compared to his wife´s. But it is central in his EMOTIONAL life. His loyalty lies with me. He certainly hasn´t given signals he wants to end his marriage, but he has been just as clear that if it continues it will not be out of love. It will be out of love and care for his son. His eldest dughter has already left home, so he is not concerned about her as much.

That being said, this is what he proposes now: He says he has fallen in love with me. He wasn´t looking for it, and he didn´t think it was possible for him, but it has happened, partly because he allowed himsefl to connect with me because his marriage seemed to be clearly over. But now it has happened, and he wants me in his life and wants to be in mine, if I will have him. He says we are not to blame for our falling in love, and there is nothing morally wrong in that, adn although we have crossed some boundaries, we have done nothing unforgivable or too harmful for anybody yet. So, he wants the best possible outcome for us all. He needs some time to figure out what to do about his marriage, time to let his wife decide what she wants to do, and time for me to think whether I want to be invloved in this. The first three weeks (before she found out) were pure bliss, but the last few days have been a little messy and no one can think clearly at this point. So he suggested we change the nature of our relationship just for a while. He wants to continue to see me and talk to me ( he cannot imagine his days without hearing from me or spending time together) but if we continue to meet behind his wife´s back, it is all going to blow up under our noses, and not only will she be hurt: our children and ourselves will get hurt too. He wants me to meet his wife, so she can see I am not a malignant seductress trying to steal her husband away. He wants her to see I am actually a good person who means no harm, and that we are not plotting against her. And he wants me to meet her so I can also see she is a human being, not some awful witch. He says he would like us to meet as two families: he thinks my kids could meet his son and we could do simple things together ( go to the park, have dinner together, etc) If his marriage turns out to be beyond repair, well, it will end for reasons other that us/me. And that is way more fair to everyone, including me. We can then pursue our relationship without harming anybody, especially ourselves. If it does not finish - and he talked about his son a lot here explaining his own reasons for continuing to be married- than we can still be in each other´s life. He says he does not need us to have physical intimacy to feel intimate with me. I am the person who makes him wnat to get up every day and face the world. My being in his lfe in any form is enough for im, even if we cannot be together as a couple. He asked me to consider whether this would be too much to ask from me, and he is going to respect my decision if I say no. I asked him what he had told his wife about us, I wouldn´t want to meet her if she knows how far into each other we are. He said he told her we talk a lot, we understand each other very well, there is a certain attraction between us, but we are not planing to run away together or anything like that. He told her I am someone she could actually relate to being tha same age, being mothers of similar age children with similar struggles ( he meant my kids´challenges after my divorce ) So I told him I´d think about it. And here I am... thinking about it and not knowing what to do...

I agree with the idea in theory, but it somehow feels too simple and idealistic. What if she is angry at me? What if she tells me something horrible? Why would she want to meet me? 

I also feel it is unfair that just because she changed her mind the last minute about ending her mariage ( and possibily because of my entrance into his life, like some small child who is being stubborn and does not want to let go) we need to forcefully become friends and give up on each other... 

I am also not sure this move would be less harmful...

[stillafool]

When is your next appointment with your Therapist?

[Crazelnut]

Ong, what a horrible idea! He is so callously cruel to both of you. He is asking you to carry out his lies to his wife (just friends, nothing going on) TO HER FACE. You know deep down something is going on between you, so don't try to back pedal into pretending you're just friends when you're in love. And don't drag your kids into this mess!

[ExpatInItaly]

18 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

He wants me to meet his wife, so she can see I am not a malignant seductress trying to steal her husband away. He wants her to see I am actually a good person who means no harm, and that we are not plotting against her. And he wants me to meet her so I can also see she is a human being, not some awful witch.

This is completely stupid. 

Sorry. 

 

[elaine567]

I am sorry but you haven't a clue about who this man really is....

[heartwhole2]

So what little I like about this proposition is that it acknowledges that sex with a third party is wrong and is maybe trying to lay the groundwork for some kind of relationship blessed by BW. I like that it faces the reality that a third person's wishes and choices do matter, that your affair will only feel like it's happening in a bubble until the bubble bursts.

But what I don't like about it far outweighs that. If MM had proved himself to be a reliable narrator, then I'd think, OK, maybe he is a modern man finding a way forward for everyone involved. But he hasn't. He has omitted and altered facts and instead of telling you he didn't want to have sex, he contrived a situation that would make you be the one who said so.

Furthermore, this situation serves to do a lot more for BW than it does for you. It's like he wants her approval or permission. Maybe he thinks she'll say, "Oh wow, iwantthisformyself is so wonderful that I don't want our marriage any more and I give you my blessing." That feels super weird because it is super weird. Why can't you take some time apart and let them figure out the marriage? Then if it's over, great, you can be together fully and properly. If MM can't wait a short period of time to have you as his emotional support out of respect for your sanity, that's his issue. Likewise, if he wants you and his marriage is pretty much over, but he can't pull the plug and has to contrive ways to make BW do it, that's also his issue to work through.

Their relationship is obviously a convoluted mess. I don't think they know if they want each other, so how could anyone else? All I know is that you are in a situation where you are waiting for your boyfriend's wife to give you permission to have a relationship. Mind you, it's not like they have an open relationship with clear rules that they're happy about. They seem to be playing some kind of push/pull game that's even more whiplash producing than the average affair.

Honestly, I am half afraid that we're like two posts away from him suggesting a threesome or sister wives. 😬

Edited August 11, 2021 by heartwhole2

[heartwhole2]

46 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

. He says he would like us to meet as two families: he thinks my kids could meet his son and we could do simple things together ( go to the park, have dinner together, etc) If his marriage turns out to be beyond repair, well, it will end for reasons other that us/me. And that is way more fair to everyone, including me. We can then pursue our relationship without harming anybody, especially ourselves. If it does not finish - and he talked about his son a lot here explaining his own reasons for continuing to be married- than we can still be in each other´s life.

My questions:
Why does BW need to meet you before they figure out if their marriage is beyond repair?
If their marriage is repaired, do you want a sexless relationship?
Are you prepared to be placed in odd, contrived situations as the price for being with this man?

 

49 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I agree with the idea in theory, but it somehow feels too simple and idealistic. What if she is angry at me? What if she tells me something horrible? Why would she want to meet me? 

Yes exactly. If she is part of this plan, then friend I would run away fast. You're already in a relationship with one confusing person whose actions don't add up. Do you need to add a second?

 

50 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I also feel it is unfair that just because she changed her mind the last minute about ending her mariage ( and possibily because of my entrance into his life, like some small child who is being stubborn and does not want to let go) we need to forcefully become friends and give up on each other... 

Feelings are feelings and you can't help them, but remember that you were fully prepared to have sex with him behind his wife's back because you're two modern adults. She's the only one who didn't ask to be part of this love triangle and as such, her responses are simply what they are. Placing expectations on her is futile (and a wake-up call to the actual nature of your relationship with a still married man who could have been separated if he wanted to be).

 

52 minutes ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I am also not sure this move would be less harmful...

Here's your voice of reason speaking. How could it be? It's not like you and MM are even on the same page. He'd have to stick with a single page for that happen.

[elaine567]

9 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

This is completely stupid. 

Sorry. 

Its not stupid, if he wants to defuse the situation and he hopes the OP will take the hint and go... without him having to spell it out. Remember the OP is the driving force behind this whole affair. He did not pursue, she did
Conflict avoidant people will do almost anything to avoid a scene.
The box of condoms I feel showed his true feelings. He  deliberately sabotaged the tryst...
By trying to make both women play nice, with all out in the open, he may have aspirations to keep both, but it is frankly so ridiculous he may be hoping the OP will say "F that." and disappear...
Either way the wife is going nowhere.
By introducing the wife as a main player in the drama (he may not want to get rid of the OP, I may be wrong there), but it sure stifles any ambitions she may have had for "more".

[mimic2021]

I had to re-read your last messages twice. Are you sure you are doing good? 

I am honestly shocked at what situation you are in. I don’t think this will end well for you OP. You are getting yourself into a terrible mess that will most likely end in you being further traumatized and untangling whatever drama is about to unfold in your life for a long time to come. 

Please stay safe! And please talk to your therapist. Tell her exactly what you have written here. 

Again, we‘ve all been in similar positions. We are rational because we know that situation you are in and further getting into will leave you terribly hurt and most likely traumatized. 

You started seeing him 4 weeks ago? OP, this is not what love looks or should be like. I hope you come to understand that you deserve so much more than what he gives you. You are currently searching for love and admiration in a place where there is none for you. Again, OP it’s only been the first month …

Edited August 11, 2021 by mimic2021

[heartwhole2]

7 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Its not stupid, if he wants to defuse the situation and he hopes the OP will take the hint and go... without him having to spell it out. Remember the OP is the driving force behind this whole affair. He did not pursue, she did
Conflict avoidant people will do almost anything to avoid a scene.
The box of condoms I feel showed his true feelings. He  deliberately sabotaged the tryst...
By trying to make both women play nice, with all out in the open, he may have aspirations to keep both, but it is frankly so ridiculous he may be hoping the OP will say "F that." and disappear...
Either way the wife is going nowhere.
By introducing the wife as a main player in the drama (he may not want to get rid of the OP, I may be wrong there), but it sure stifles any ambitions she may have had for "more".

Yes this may be the ultimate way out for someone who can't bear to be held responsible for hard things . . . make the two women decide for him.

[ExpatInItaly]

7 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Its not stupid, if he wants to defuse the situation and he hopes the OP will take the hint and go... without him having to spell it out.

I think he is too dopey to contrive the situation that much, personally. 

[spiderowl]

"He wants me to meet his wife, so she can see I am not a malignant seductress trying to steal her husband away. He wants her to see I am actually a good person who means no harm, and that we are not plotting against her. And he wants me to meet her so I can also see she is a human being, not some awful witch. He says he would like us to meet as two families: he thinks my kids could meet his son and we could do simple things together ( go to the park, have dinner together, etc) If his marriage turns out to be beyond repair, well, it will end for reasons other that us/me. And that is way more fair to everyone, including me. We can then pursue our relationship without harming anybody, especially ourselves. If it does not finish - and he talked about his son a lot here explaining his own reasons for continuing to be married- than we can still be in each other´s life."

Hmm, it seems this guy HAS taken leave of his senses!

He wants to pursue an emotional affair UNDER his wife's nose, not behind her back.  He's hoping you will go along with this weird plan.

His wife is not going to be delighted to see you.  She's heard some of what is happening at least.  I'd be surprised if she agreed to this fun afternoon with the kids playing together and if she did, she is probably going to be doing it under false pretences of some kind.

He seems to be thinking, oh, we could all be nice friends together.  I can keep iwantthisformyself, my wife will think she is just a friend, iwantthisformyself will see my wife is a real person with feelings, and I don't have to commit to anything or change anything.  Well, I think he's got one hell of a shock coming to him!  

I'm not surprised you are wondering if this is a good idea, OP.  What could you possibly gain by going along with it?  What could his wife gain?  What could his children gain - are your kids likely to play with each other on a regular basis?  What could he gain?  Well, it seems he would be trying to keep all his female friends happy and to get them to play nice with each other.  He's a bit deluded isn't he?

This is about the most ridiculous suggestion I've heard on here.  

 

[heartwhole2]

Yes it's this bizarre situation where we're hoping his wife is just mad about their relationship because what if she's . . . weirdly into it???

[ExpatInItaly]

1 minute ago, heartwhole2 said:

Yes it's this bizarre situation where we're hoping his wife is just mad about their relationship because what if she's . . . weirdly into it???

Or they're actually polyamorous and looking for a woman to join them 🤔

[mimic2021]

5 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Or they're actually polyamorous and looking for a woman to join them 🤔

Maybe OP is being actively groomed into such a situationship?

[Starswillshine]

It seems every interaction is contrived to gauge the reaction. 

From admitting to having sex with his wife, to the condoms thing, to this silly proposition. Seems a way to feel out how much OP is willing to settle for... 

[spiderowl]

9 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

It seems every interaction is contrived to gauge the reaction. 

From admitting to having sex with his wife, to the condoms thing, to this silly proposition. Seems a way to feel out how much OP is willing to settle for... 

Yes, sort of like he's trying to throw OP off balance.

 

[heartwhole2]

When someone's actions are this troubling, it can be hard to figure out how much is intentional and how much is faulty wiring or the scars of a poor childhood or whatnot. I honestly do not know if this man is a master manipulator or just greatly inept (a bit of both at times, most likely), but it's red flags all day either way. So many of his actions fall under, "If X, then why Y?"

I still think the thread that makes the most sense is that his primary goal is saving the marriage. When OP first propositioned him, he could have said, "Great! We're in love, and my wife hates me anyway, I'm separating today!" But he didn't. He wanted to meet OP where his wife could find them or hear about it. Indeed, his wife did hear about it, and then they were intimate. She didn't force him to be intimate, right? As things were growing stronger with OP, he could have let things get even weaker with BW. But instead he let them get stronger.

OP, you tried to move forward with the intimacy that he talked a big game about, but we know how that went. Surely, as much as you think this is about him being too honorable to consummate your great love, a part of you must worry that this guy isn't that anxious to get into your pants? You're a sexy lady in your sexual prime. Is he  . . . just not that into you? Worse, is he seeing the impact on his BW and finding that his refusal to separate is paying off after all? Remember, he doesn't have to be consciously plotting. Most people don't cackle as they plot to harm others. He just has to be noticing that he's getting to enjoy the feeling of new love while also having his BW interested in him again. He may not be sure of much, but he's sure he doesn't want the door with BW closed forever. And that matters more than sexual gratification with you right now.

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I am his primary emotional attachment person right now, and he is mine.

For goodness sakes, it’s been three weeks… 

1 hour ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

But it is central in his EMOTIONAL life. His loyalty lies with me. He certainly hasn´t given signals he wants to end his marriage,

At least you acknowledge that he’s given no indication that he plans to leave his wife. As such, his loyalty lies with his wife and family. 

1 hour ago, Iwantthisformyself said:

I also feel it is unfair that just because she changed her mind the last minute about ending her mariage ( and possibily because of my entrance into his life, like some small child who is being stubborn and does not want to let go) we need to forcefully become friends and give up on each other... 

There are just no words… Yes, it’s all her fault that you can’t be with the man you’ve decided in the last three weeks that you love… 🙄