Is it bad to not care about what other people think?

[ironpony]

Oh okay, what would be better than if I left legalities out of it?

[Happy Lemming]

7 hours ago, ironpony said:

Oh okay, what would be better than if I left legalities out of it?

At this point, I would go through all your past threads where you asked questions about movie production, sales & marketing of a movie, insurance requirements, legal complications, permits, actors, salaries of staff, equipment required, etc. etc. write them all down. Then ask your friends that completed their movies (and made a profit) for the answers to these questions.

As @basil67 pointed out (up thread), we are randoms without these specific skills or knowledge of the movie making industry in Canada.

Unless someone on this forum is an attorney/lawyer in Canada, I don't think any of us are qualified to dispense "legal" advice.  I know, I am not.

As I previously mentioned, there are times in my life where I sought the advice of a competent attorney to take care of matters I was not qualified to handle.  I do remember one instance -- where I financed a house and an issue came up a year later.  I didn't panic, I called my attorney that did the paperwork and described the situation.  My attorney told me the mortgagor (borrower) had no clue what he was talking about, that I was in the right, with nothing to worry about, and the loan agreement was "rock solid".  I went home that night and slept like a baby... no worries whatsoever.  For me, when it comes to legal matters, I leave it to the experts.

Edited August 29, 2021 by Happy Lemming
spelling

[clia]

On 8/28/2021 at 2:25 AM, ironpony said:

I wanted to be a director so I tried learning to be a director.  I didn't think I was starting out in another positon, waiting for someone else to 'promote' me.

But I don't think most directors jump right into directing -- at least not a feature film.  Most work in the industry at other jobs, learn, network, and use that work experience as a stepping stone to get to directing feature films.   

I decided to Google some directors to see what they did.  Here's a sample:

Christopher Nolan:  script reader, camera operator, directed corporate videos, made three short films, made and scrapped a feature film, then made Following for $6k, which allowed him to make Memento

David Fincher:  visual effects producer, assistant cameraman, matte photographer, directed television commercials and music videos, which led to him being chosen to direct Alien 3

Quentin Tarantino:  production assistant, acting, screenwriting, which led to Reservoir Dogs

Paul Thomas Anderson:  production assistant, spent $10k to make a short film that was shown at Sundance and ultimately led to feature film and then Hard Eight

Guillermo del Toro:  made 10 short films, worked as a special effects costume designer

Ryan Coogler:  directed 4 short films while in film school, which led to feature film

Coen brothers:  production assistant, film editing

Kevin Smith:  wrote and directed Clerks for $28k, which was screened at Sundance

Doing what you want to do may very well be doable -- but you really do not seem to have the knowledge base or connections to do it.  THAT is why your family is discouraging you.  We've been telling you here for years that you need to work in the industry (i.e., move to Vancouver), start out with short films, and/or make some kind of a plan.  But it really doesn't seem like you've made any progress.  You keep coming back and talking about making a film, but don't seem to have any knowledge as to how to make that happen.  THAT is the kind of stuff you would LEARN if you worked in the industry. 

[clia]

On 8/28/2021 at 9:32 AM, ironpony said:

I don't understand this part though because you talk about how difficult it is to make a movie, but then you say every man and his dog can make one. Isn't that contradictory if making a movie is difficult?

As for others wanting to hire me, don't have to get something bigger out there first to show off? Other filmmakers have had to do as well.

I can write a script, cast my friends, film it on my iPhone, and post it on You Tube.  That doesn't mean it's any good or that it's going to be screened at Sundance. 

But that's essentially what Kevin Smith did with Clerks, minus the part about posting it on You Tube.  He did manage to get it screened at Sundance, but I don't remember how.  But he wrote a straightforward script that didn't have a lot of characters, was hugely dialogue based, didn't need special effects, and could be filmed primarily in one location, which happened to be where he was working at the time.  That's how you keep a budget low and make a feature film for $28k.  

[Taramere]

1 hour ago, clia said:

But I don't think most directors jump right into directing -- at least not a feature film.  Most work in the industry at other jobs, learn, network, and use that work experience as a stepping stone to get to directing feature films.   

I decided to Google some directors to see what they did.  Here's a sample:

Christopher Nolan:  script reader, camera operator, directed corporate videos, made three short films, made and scrapped a feature film, then made Following for $6k, which allowed him to make Memento

David Fincher:  visual effects producer, assistant cameraman, matte photographer, directed television commercials and music videos, which led to him being chosen to direct Alien 3

Quentin Tarantino:  production assistant, acting, screenwriting, which led to Reservoir Dogs

Doing what you want to do may very well be doable -- but you really do not seem to have the knowledge base or connections to do it.  THAT is why your family is discouraging you.  We've been telling you here for years that you need to work in the industry (i.e., move to Vancouver), start out with short films, and/or make some kind of a plan.  But it really doesn't seem like you've made any progress.  You keep coming back and talking about making a film, but don't seem to have any knowledge as to how to make that happen.  THAT is the kind of stuff you would LEARN if you worked in the industry. 

I saw an article headline recently about an appearance in the Golden Girls helping Quentin Tarantino to make Reservoir Dogs. I was curious about that, so I googled and it led me to an excerpt from a chat show. Tarantino said  where he said that years ago he'd made a brief appearance as an Elvis impersonator (along with a group of other Elvis impersonators) on the Golden girls.  He used his residual earnings from that brief appearance to make Reservoir Dogs.

I think in any industry, but particularly competitive ones, if a person has a real hunger and drive to succeed in that industry then they'll be prepared to take on any sort of job as part of learning the job and making connections.  A lot of talented, creative people out there with pretty menial gofer jobs.  Some of them unquestionably finding their gratitude for any opportunities thrown their way being taken advantage of as always tends to happen in the most competitive environments.  It's not a nice way to learn, but it's the way that people who don't already have connections (due to family, privilege etc) in an industry often have to learn.  LS is full of people who want to help and tend not to ask for anything in return.  I doubt the movie industry is anything like that.

[ironpony]

11 hours ago, clia said:

But I don't think most directors jump right into directing -- at least not a feature film.  Most work in the industry at other jobs, learn, network, and use that work experience as a stepping stone to get to directing feature films.   

I decided to Google some directors to see what they did.  Here's a sample:

Christopher Nolan:  script reader, camera operator, directed corporate videos, made three short films, made and scrapped a feature film, then made Following for $6k, which allowed him to make Memento

David Fincher:  visual effects producer, assistant cameraman, matte photographer, directed television commercials and music videos, which led to him being chosen to direct Alien 3

Quentin Tarantino:  production assistant, acting, screenwriting, which led to Reservoir Dogs

Paul Thomas Anderson:  production assistant, spent $10k to make a short film that was shown at Sundance and ultimately led to feature film and then Hard Eight

Guillermo del Toro:  made 10 short films, worked as a special effects costume designer

Ryan Coogler:  directed 4 short films while in film school, which led to feature film

Coen brothers:  production assistant, film editing

Kevin Smith:  wrote and directed Clerks for $28k, which was screened at Sundance

Doing what you want to do may very well be doable -- but you really do not seem to have the knowledge base or connections to do it.  THAT is why your family is discouraging you.  We've been telling you here for years that you need to work in the industry (i.e., move to Vancouver), start out with short films, and/or make some kind of a plan.  But it really doesn't seem like you've made any progress.  You keep coming back and talking about making a film, but don't seem to have any knowledge as to how to make that happen.  THAT is the kind of stuff you would LEARN if you worked in the industry. 

Oh yes I have done jobs like this one other people's movie shoots as well.  I've done a lot of acting in other people's shoots, as well as audio recording and editing.  I just finished acting in a feature film shoot last week.

But I feel that after doing this over the years, I have to eventually move onto directing like other directors do.  Maybe because of my experience I will do better than I think and maybe it's just negative thinking, if other directors do it as well...  Or maybe not...

Edited August 31, 2021 by ironpony

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ironpony said:

Oh yes I have done jobs like this one other people's movie shoots as well.  I've done a lot of acting in other people's shoots, as well as audio recording and editing.  I just finished acting in a feature film shoot last week.

But I feel that after doing this over the years, I have to eventually move onto directing like other directors do.  Maybe because of my experience I will do better than I think and maybe it's just negative thinking, if other directors do it as well...  Or maybe not...

At this point, your project is still doomed because you don't have a plan and a budget.   Get a plan and a budget which works and you'll be much closer to a sensible place to make a start.

[ironpony]

On 8/31/2021 at 2:22 AM, basil67 said:

At this point, your project is still doomed because you don't have a plan and a budget.   Get a plan and a budget which works and you'll be much closer to a sensible place to make a start.

Okay thanks.  When you say a plan and a budget, what do you mean by the plan part more specifically?  By plan, do you mean every part of the process besides the budget?

[basil67]

Yes, make a plan of every single part of the process from start to finish.  Legal, insurance, payroll, locations, editing, lighting tech, sound, marketing etc etc etc.  Every single part of the process.  What needs to be done, whether or not you need to outsource (and the cost) and what order it all needs to happen in.

If you know the answers, it won't take you long to do.  If you don't know the answers, then you're not ready to make a start on the movie.

Edited September 7, 2021 by basil67

[ironpony]

Oh okay.  I have plan for all the technical parts, sound, lighting, editing, locations, just haven't figured out the parts that involve the budget, and was hoping I could hire or acquire someone else to handle that part that is more of an expert on it.

[Happy Lemming]

I have an idea... Why don't you start another thread, where you post each step you've completed in preparation for this movie.

(1) Talked to Mr. Greene (attorney at law) regarding liability/legal issues.

(2) Talked to Ms. Jones at the local permitting office regarding pulling the necessary permits (and fees) for the various locations.

(3) Talked to Ms. Smith (local CPA) about budgeting and financial matters.

(4) Entered negotiations with Ms. Johnson as the lead role in the movie and discussed her salary requirements.

(5) Entered negotiations with Mr. Davis as the male supporting role in the movie and received his salary requirements.

(6) Received advice from friend and fellow movie producer, Ms. Miller about some of the issues/problems she ran into during the making of her movie.

Maybe if you write down (or type) about the ground work you have completed, you won't feel so over whelmed with the entire process.

“There is only one way to eat an elephant: a bite at a time.” - Desmond Tutu

[basil67]

6 hours ago, ironpony said:

Oh okay.  I have plan for all the technical parts, sound, lighting, editing, locations, just haven't figured out the parts that involve the budget, and was hoping I could hire or acquire someone else to handle that part that is more of an expert on it.

So put that into your plan, including cost.  When you say "acquire' are you hoping for a freebie on such a big job?   Unless you've got someone who is as keen on this project as you are and you're happy to go 50/50 in any profits, it's not going to happen. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by basil67

[ironpony]

Well it was said before that I should not hire a lawyer, because that would eat up a huge chunk of the budget.  However, when it comes to planning out the legal part of it, should I not consult a lawyer then, and just go by my own interpretation of the law, as best as I can interpret it then from my research?  Or do lawyers know more, than what can be researched?

Edited September 8, 2021 by ironpony

[Happy Lemming]

15 minutes ago, ironpony said:

Well it was said before that I should not hire a lawyer, because that would eat up a huge chunk of the budget.

If your question is where to start regarding the legal ramifications of making a movie, I would ask those friends that have already made movies which lawyer/attorney they used.  Contact this individual and ask if you can purchase one hour of his/her time and ask your questions.  Be prepared... have all of your questions written down.  I'm sure this individual will also have some valuable advice (including but not limited to various permits, insurances, potential liability, etc.).

As an average cost, I think you are looking at about $400/hour. 

I was helping a friend out many years ago with a situation that was way beyond my scope of knowledge, so I contacted an attorney that specialized in that area of expertise and inquired about purchasing one hour of that attorney's time.  I instructed my friend to take a notebook and write one question at the top of each page, as the attorney answered the question, he jotted down the answer and turned the page to the next question.  Although, my friend did not like the answers he received, they were the legally correct answers for this situation.

You need legal advice from an expert (not from random individuals on the internet), as you don't want to open yourself up to potential long term liability. (if someone is injured on your movie set or one of a thousand of other things that could go wrong)

I am willing to admit when I get in a situation that is going to be "beyond the scope of my personal expertise".  Before the situation gets out of hand, or even before I enter into a contract; I will pay my attorney to review the documents/situation and advise me as continue on with the transaction, or leave it alone.  If he says "leave it alone", I do just that.  I am a happier person for hiring an attorney in those situations and even happier when I take his advice.  He has never steered me in the wrong direction.

[basil67]

45 minutes ago, ironpony said:

Well it was said before that I should not hire a lawyer, because that would eat up a huge chunk of the budget.  However, when it comes to planning out the legal part of it, should I not consult a lawyer then, and just go by my own interpretation of the law, as best as I can interpret it then from my research?  Or do lawyers know more, than what can be researched?

You're getting ahead of yourself.  Go talk to a lawyer and then make a decision on whether you need to hire one

[ironpony]

Okay I can talk to one.  The people who made movies I worked under, did not hire lawyers, and technically broke some laws and cut some corners, when they did it though, regarding permits and insurance.

[basil67]

4 hours ago, ironpony said:

Okay I can talk to one.  The people who made movies I worked under, did not hire lawyers, and technically broke some laws and cut some corners, when they did it though, regarding permits and insurance.

So you've got two different opinions.  You are the boss of the movie, so make a decision as to what you think is best.   Remember, our thoughts are worth nothing - at the end of the day, this project and all it's decisions are 100% on your shoulders from start to end.

Edited September 8, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[ironpony]

Well another thing is, I was told by others that a movie is less likely to get distribution if any laws were broken in making it, because then the distributor has to fake risks as a result.  So I thought therefore, skimping out on a lawyer would be bad, if those filmmakers had a point there.

[elaine567]

4 minutes ago, ironpony said:

Well another thing is, I was told by others that a movie is less likely to get distribution if any laws were broken in making it, because then the distributor has to fake risks as a result.  So I thought therefore, skimping out on a lawyer would be bad, if those filmmakers had a point there.

You are going on hearsay and tittle tattle.
Time to find out the truth. Do your own research.

I would guess film makers make films for all sorts of reasons, some I guess just to get some experience or for fun or to able to write something on their CV.
So it hardly matters to them if they don't follow all the rules to the letter, as distribution is very unlikely.
If you feel for your film, distribution is highly likely then you would be stupid to do anything that would sabotage your chances.
That is where your research comes in.
Once you KNOW what you need to do, where you can cut corners, where you need to spend lots of money on professionals, then you can work around that.

The problem you have, is that this is a one off project.
You have no time to learn from your mistakes, you will have to get it right first time as there is no second, third... tenth time. 
You are jumping off the high board straight into the deep end with hardly any training or practice, and expecting to win a gold medal...

[ironpony]

5 hours ago, elaine567 said:

You are going on hearsay and tittle tattle.
Time to find out the truth. Do your own research.

I would guess film makers make films for all sorts of reasons, some I guess just to get some experience or for fun or to able to write something on their CV.
So it hardly matters to them if they don't follow all the rules to the letter, as distribution is very unlikely.
If you feel for your film, distribution is highly likely then you would be stupid to do anything that would sabotage your chances.
That is where your research comes in.
Once you KNOW what you need to do, where you can cut corners, where you need to spend lots of money on professionals, then you can work around that.

The problem you have, is that this is a one off project.
You have no time to learn from your mistakes, you will have to get it right first time as there is no second, third... tenth time. 
You are jumping off the high board straight into the deep end with hardly any training or practice, and expecting to win a gold medal...

oh well I just don't have the money to keep trying over and over again so I feel I have to do what I can with what I have.

but as for doing proper research, I thought that asking other filmmakers who no more was the proper research. If it's just Tittle rattle then whose advice I see if not other filmmakers who know more?

[Happy Lemming]

I just did a quick google search and it appears there are lawyer referral services in Canada. 

Before we end up in another "error loop" where you say "friends said this" and "friends said that", why don't you contact that referral service, ask them if there is an attorney/lawyer that specializes or is familiar with "Movie Production" (in your province/territory) and inquiry about his/her rate.

At that point, contact that attorney and ask if you can purchase one hour of their time.  Then (as I suggested up thread) you prepare a notebook with all of your questions.

If you truly want to make a movie, it appears this would be a good place to start.  Know the law, know what insurances you need, what permits will need to be pulled, what contracts you'll need with the various actors, actresses, crew, support staff, what taxes will need to be paid, licensing, etc. etc.  I'm sure this attorney/lawyer will also have some good sound advice on items I can't even think of.  He/She will also be knowledgeable about the local laws in your province/territory.

Once you get that completed, you'll have the correct and legal information you need and not some "tittle tattle", as @elaine567 pointed out.  Then you can actually move forward with the planning phase to make your movie.

[basil67]

8 hours ago, ironpony said:

oh well I just don't have the money to keep trying over and over again so I feel I have to do what I can with what I have.

but as for doing proper research, I thought that asking other filmmakers who no more was the proper research. If it's just Tittle rattle then whose advice I see if not other filmmakers who know more?

You found out what they have done.  The "proper research" involves understanding and analysing the risks they took, and how those risks would affect you and then working out if this is the best way for you.  

And HL is right that speaking to a lawyer is one of the best approaches in your research.

[Happy Lemming]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

 ...and how those risks would affect you.

 

@basil67 is correct.

You have been declared competent to use your money the way you see fit.  With that decision, come the risks associated with that declaration.  You can be sued and have a judgement placed against you should something go wrong during the filming process.

"You don't know... what you don't know." - Socrates

[ironpony]

Oh who declared me incompetent?

[basil67]

@ironpony , he said you were declared competent.   When your parents wanted to control your money, the powers that be declared you competent and as such, refused your parent's request.