15 year marriage with 2 kids gone down the drain

[Sand__ra]

My soon to be ex wife (36) fell out of love with me and asked for a divorce and we've been living in separate places since April. She hasn't filed yet due to pending financial issues.
We've been in contact and see each other often. On the first weeks after separation she would invite me to have lunch at her house and we would go out as family and also as a couple (with "friend" status of course).

Recently and out of nowhere the following has started to happen:
1 - She used to touch me on the shoulder and on the next day she has gone cold, mean and distant but now she's ok again.
2 - We live in a country where we greet with 2 kisses in the cheek, but because we are so close, we used to greet with a single kiss in the cheek and a friendly hug. She's texted me and asked me to stop greeting her with kisses and hugs, basically just greeting saying "hello" with no physical contact. Despite that, she always hugs me when we say goodbye but she does not allow kiss in the cheek. She's told me she does not feel comfortable kissing in the cheek.
3 - She vents a lot about her new job and all the gossip involved and shares a lot about her life to me including some frustrations with the kids, I would say we have a good connection. Today I've asked her if she's seeing someone and her reaction was like: she's smiled and her eyes sparkled and her cheeks turned pink and she told me that "well, I don't need to answer that question, but no I'm not seeing anyone, I don't have time for that".
4 - She told me that her boss (male 16 years older than her) shares a lot of personal information with her and other female coworkers, and my wife told she also shares some personal information with them, even though she's only started there 3 weeks ago.

My theory:
She is starting to build an emotional connection with her boss (he's married BTW) since there are no other male coworkers. Sometimes she needs to go out with him for multiple tasks (getting office supplies, etc.) therefore it makes sense. Also, sometimes they all drink and smoke socially at work, it's a small company, it's much easier to get her hooked up.

My sister's perspective:
My STB ex wife thinks that I have moved on because I have stopped chasing her like I used to and she may have found out that I'm on tinder (I'm actually on tinder but at the moment I'm not after a relationship, just chatting). The fact that she's smiled when I asked if she was seeing someone is because she knows that I'm jealous and it makes her happy.

I never wanted this divorce, and I would do anything to keep my family intact, but my wife's behavior is really confusing me. What you guys think?

Thanks
 

Edited September 19, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[d0nnivain]

Your wife is trying to keep things civil so you can continue to co-parent.  Unfortunately I don't see anything in here that indicates she wants to reconcile or save your marriage.  Based on the smile, I suspect there is someone else. 

You are clearly not ready to date.  Stay on Tinder if you like but make it clear that you are looking for NSA sex.  

[Sand__ra]

6 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

Your wife is trying to keep things civil so you can continue to co-parent.  Unfortunately I don't see anything in here that indicates she wants to reconcile or save your marriage.  Based on the smile, I suspect there is someone else. 

You are clearly not ready to date.  Stay on Tinder if you like but make it clear that you are looking for NSA sex.  

Thanks, that's my suspicion as well. My sister told me that if she was seeing or falling for someone, she wouldn't go out for a coffee with me and she would not initiate phone calls, basically she would avoid meeting up which is not the case. We speak and meet quite often.
If she's seeing someone else, why won't she tell me? I mean, she's technically "free", it's not really cheating.

[d0nnivain]

She's not telling you yet because she doesn't want to deal with your jealousy.  It doesn't matter if she's not "technically" cheating.  You are still going to be hurt.  So use this time to warp your head around the idea so you can be stoic in front of her when you are officially informed.  

[glows]

There's a lot of TMI in your conversations. Keep the interactions brief and neutral and about the kids. If she starts going on tangents about her work or personal life, it's none of your business and close off the conversation or switch the subject. It's causing some pain for you because you didn't want this divorce in the first place. 

How soon exactly is she going to file or is she dragging her feet/procrastinating? What is the timeline here?

[Cookiesandough]

Sorry to hear this, can you all try some marriage counseling 

[Sand__ra]

13 minutes ago, glows said:

There's a lot of TMI in your conversations. Keep the interactions brief and neutral and about the kids. If she starts going on tangents about her work or personal life, it's none of your business and close off the conversation or switch the subject. It's causing some pain for you because you didn't want this divorce in the first place. 

How soon exactly is she going to file or is she dragging her feet/procrastinating? What is the timeline here?

I would say I've got a 3 month window here. She might file next month.
I've been to individual counseling and I've been told she's ambivalent but things have changed now, I've booked another session next week.

[Sand__ra]

16 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Sorry to hear this, can you all try some marriage counseling 

She doesn't want to.

[glows]

2 minutes ago, Sand__ra said:

I would say I've got a 3 month window here. She might file next month.
I've been to individual counseling and I've been told she's ambivalent but things have changed now, I've booked another session next week.

Or, you could start the process and file the notice of claim. Is she telling you that she does not want to be with you and sees no future with you? I'm sensing that there's some denial here. Both of you are separated (in limbo unfortunately) and she is telling you she will be the one to file but has financial constraints that are delaying the process. Why are you hanging on to someone who doesn't want to be with you? Has she given you reason to believe that you will get back together?

[Sand__ra]

12 minutes ago, glows said:

Or, you could start the process and file the notice of claim. Is she telling you that she does not want to be with you and sees no future with you? I'm sensing that there's some denial here. Both of you are separated (in limbo unfortunately) and she is telling you she will be the one to file but has financial constraints that are delaying the process. Why are you hanging on to someone who doesn't want to be with you? Has she given you reason to believe that you will get back together?

Well, she's asked for a divorce before and back then she claimed she no longer loved me. I didn't leave home and she's agreed to go for counseling, and we've had the best week after the first session. Then she said everything was ok between us and no more sessions were required, however we were experiencing some financial trouble back then and I did not insist on the sessions, I thought everything was ok. This was last October. Because I did not have time for myself to think things through, I have not changed enough and the same happened to her, so she's asked for the divorce again in April this year and I decided to leave home temporarily but she said she did not miss me and she wanted to remain separated.

Why are you hanging on to someone who doesn't want to be with you?
I'm still hanging because our marriage has been affected mostly by external factors, and I believe it would work out if we both make the effort of keeping the emotional connection intact, I have much more empathy for her now, that's why she's been venting on me, it looks like she's regaining trust but she's expecting me to chase her all the time.

Has she given you reason to believe that you will get back together?
Yes, I think she's expecting changes. On one occasion, I've had to help her because both of our kids got sick, so I had to stay at her place for 3 days and helped her, we've actually slept on the same bed but with pillows separating us. On the last night I was there, she got upset because I could not remember a small detail about something she said a few days earlier and she was like "see, you don't listen to me, that's why I prefer to be on my own". Also, she's told me she does not want a relationship with any man any time soon, she just wants to be "free". In addition, my counselor told me that there is some ambivalence here, she might have to sort out her own problems.

[Sand__ra]

1 hour ago, d0nnivain said:

She's not telling you yet because she doesn't want to deal with your jealousy.  It doesn't matter if she's not "technically" cheating.  You are still going to be hurt.  So use this time to warp your head around the idea so you can be stoic in front of her when you are officially informed.  

How can I make her confess that to me? Any subtle signs I should pay attention to? 
If she's getting involved with someone else, I really don't want her back, and the sooner I know, the better. I don't want to waste my time with false hopes or being a plan B.

[mark clemson]

Hmm. Some food for thought for you:

- People sometimes essentially try to be married because they think they should (ie, they've internalized "societal expectations"). But they find out it's not really for them. This is (as you might imagine and are perhaps finding out) not so great for their partners.

- There are people in the world who are (unconsciously) uncomfortable with "functional" situations such as a reasonably good marriage and find various ways to sabotage them.

- Sometimes people attempt to "monkey-branch" to a new relationship - they start the new one before finishing the old one. If they're doing that, you can't really trust what they say e.g. that they're not interested in a new relationship. I believe that there's often significant back-and-forth with this, as it's hard to truly establish a new relationship while still in the old one.

 

SOMETIMES knowing what's driving a person's actions can help you to better address them/get them to change. That said, OFTEN if a person is genuinely set on doing something, e.g. leaving a marriage, there is little one can do about it and really not much point in trying.

Withdrawing from her, showing little interest, indicating you're accepting divorce and MOVING ON WITH YOUR LIFE (aka "the 180", which you can look up online) sometimes can get a person to "realize what they're losing" and want you back. It can also simply be the final nail in the coffin of the relationship and/or play into the hands of the person who (genuinely) wants to leave.

Edited August 11, 2021 by mark clemson

[Sand__ra]

Thanks Mark,

Wise words there.
My counselor told me that I should display interest in her, but I'm not sure if that's the right approach.
Anyways, I was thinking in sharing more details about my life just like she does by sharing details of her life with me, I want her to know that I haven't slept with anyone since the breakup, that I am on tinder (I actually don't mind showing her my matches and messages, there is nothing sensitive as I haven't chatted that much) just to chat without any other intentions, so basically make her aware that I haven't "cheated" on her even that is not considered cheating. I'm concerned because she has noticed that my interest has gone down, I've stopped looking at her IG stories, I can spend a full day without contacting her, etc. and she might think that because I have much more free time than she has (my kids live with her), I might have had a ONS with a roommate or any other girl, and it might be repulsive to her. She may want limited physical contact with me because she might think I just want her for sex or that she can't stand the idea of me dating other girls i.e. making no effort to get her back.

In summary, there is something that changed overnight and I'm completely intrigued. Either she found me on tinder and started to assume that I went on dates OR she's had a great day with her boss at work.

Sorry but my head is a mess at the moment.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Sand__ra

[mark clemson]

^^ thanks. You don't want to drive yourself too crazy conjecturing about what she may or may not be thinking or reacting to. It might really be more her than you. You can ask directly and see what she says. The chances of you getting a direct and satisfying answer are not high IMO, but it might be a starting point.

If she really wanted to try to make the marriage work, she'd probably agree to go back to marriage counseling for another go-round, so that's something to ask her about if you haven't already. IF she says no to that idea, it may be a clue that she's serious about ending it (above and beyond the clues she's frankly already given).

[glows]

9 hours ago, Sand__ra said:

Well, she's asked for a divorce before and back then she claimed she no longer loved me. I didn't leave home and she's agreed to go for counseling, and we've had the best week after the first session. Then she said everything was ok between us and no more sessions were required, however we were experiencing some financial trouble back then and I did not insist on the sessions, I thought everything was ok. This was last October. Because I did not have time for myself to think things through, I have not changed enough and the same happened to her, so she's asked for the divorce again in April this year and I decided to leave home temporarily but she said she did not miss me and she wanted to remain separated.

Why are you hanging on to someone who doesn't want to be with you?
I'm still hanging because our marriage has been affected mostly by external factors, and I believe it would work out if we both make the effort of keeping the emotional connection intact, I have much more empathy for her now, that's why she's been venting on me, it looks like she's regaining trust but she's expecting me to chase her all the time.

Has she given you reason to believe that you will get back together?
Yes, I think she's expecting changes. On one occasion, I've had to help her because both of our kids got sick, so I had to stay at her place for 3 days and helped her, we've actually slept on the same bed but with pillows separating us. On the last night I was there, she got upset because I could not remember a small detail about something she said a few days earlier and she was like "see, you don't listen to me, that's why I prefer to be on my own". Also, she's told me she does not want a relationship with any man any time soon, she just wants to be "free". In addition, my counselor told me that there is some ambivalence here, she might have to sort out her own problems.

Thanks for the detailed response. Have those external factors changed (that led to the marriage breakdown)?

I would not mix up care for the kids for care of you as a romantic partner. Her comments are inconsiderate and selfish if you ask me, almost petty and threatening in a way. If a woman wants to be with you you won't have to go fishing like this for assurances. And she certainly wouldn't find every opportunity to take digs at you. 

I hope for your sake that either of you make up your minds and stick to it, at least for the sake of your children and so that there's more stability and clarity. A woman wanting to be "free" does not suggest sorting out her own problems. I'd be careful with statements like that and be frank with your counsellor about your thoughts that you are sharing here. You might be reading too far into what the counsellor says or what your wife/ex is saying. 
 

[Sand__ra]

1 hour ago, glows said:

Thanks for the detailed response. Have those external factors changed (that led to the marriage breakdown)?

I would not mix up care for the kids for care of you as a romantic partner. Her comments are inconsiderate and selfish if you ask me, almost petty and threatening in a way. If a woman wants to be with you you won't have to go fishing like this for assurances. And she certainly wouldn't find every opportunity to take digs at you. 

I hope for your sake that either of you make up your minds and stick to it, at least for the sake of your children and so that there's more stability and clarity. A woman wanting to be "free" does not suggest sorting out her own problems. I'd be careful with statements like that and be frank with your counsellor about your thoughts that you are sharing here. You might be reading too far into what the counsellor says or what your wife/ex is saying. 
 

Just to be clear, when I say "she" I'm always referring to my wife. It was my wife who decided that no more therapy sessions were required, and she has always been a bad communicator regarding her issues with me, that's why I've always assumed that things were ok, I've always told her I'm not a psychic.

Latest update:
Every day she asks me "have you thought about what are you going to do with the kids on the weekend?" 
Today she's texted me again asking "could you take the kids with you on saturday?" 

When she was opening up to me about her job and her life in general 2 days ago, she told me that she wanted to go shopping on her own while the kids are with me, but I think she's due to meet someone. I find it very suspicious about her asking me all the time, unless she's just using it as an excuse to reach out.

Bottom line: I would like to save the marriage, but if she gets involved with someone else, I'm out, I will not take her back because she did not make the effort in becoming a better communicator. Back in October, what would have happened if I just had left home? I mean, she still loved me, she has just decided to throw the marriage away without making the effort. But now things are a bit different, she is not in love with me anymore. This is doing my head in, because I just would like to have confirmation that she's falling for someone else so I can end my friendship with her. I will not remain friends with her after the divorce, I might actually relocate to my hometown, I live here in her hometown because of her, everywhere I go reminds me of her and this is painful.

[notbroken]

Your wife is likely seeing someone else and doesn't want to admit to herself or you that she is 'to blame' for your split.   She wants to think she simply fell out of love so therefore it is ok to do what she is doing.   You can't make someone love you.   Look up the 180.  You need to speak to her only about the kids and divorce as soon as possible before the anger sets in and while you can get a decent settlement.  I'm sorry, but your marriage is over.   Even if she comes back the damage is done.   Definitely do NOT tell her about your Tinder dates, etc.   Just nothing to gain there.   Truthfully, it is WAY too early for you to be dating.   Get good with yourself and your situation first.  Be good to yourself.  Make sure you are eating properly.  Avoid drugs/alcohol - the problem won't really go away.   Be the best Dad you can be.  

[JRabbit]

17 hours ago, Sand__ra said:

She doesn't want to.

Your answer is here. I'm sorry it hurts, you can analyze every text and plan she has but at the end of the day, this is over. Best you get your affairs in order.

[Sand__ra]

2 hours ago, JRabbit said:

Your answer is here. I'm sorry it hurts, you can analyze every text and plan she has but at the end of the day, this is over. Best you get your affairs in order.

Yes but no counselor can make her fall in love again, it needs to come from her. That's why I'm focusing on reconnecting and let her open up to me, apparently her heart tells her one thing and the head tells her another, she might be scared to go back to the old relationship. Today she's spent her whole lunch time talking to me and she told me that I have changed for the better and it pisses her off because I could have changed before and that the kids didn't need to go through our separation. 
 

[Sand__ra]

On 8/12/2021 at 3:35 AM, mark clemson said:

^^ thanks. You don't want to drive yourself too crazy conjecturing about what she may or may not be thinking or reacting to. It might really be more her than you. You can ask directly and see what she says. The chances of you getting a direct and satisfying answer are not high IMO, but it might be a starting point.

If she really wanted to try to make the marriage work, she'd probably agree to go back to marriage counseling for another go-round, so that's something to ask her about if you haven't already. IF she says no to that idea, it may be a clue that she's serious about ending it (above and beyond the clues she's frankly already given).

UPDATE:
We've had lunch today and she told me this:
- That her counselor said that she should do whatever makes her more comfortable, that's why she asked me to stop greeting her with a kiss in the cheek and a hug. (it's sad that after all these years together, we don't even greet like normal friends)
- That she's not seeing anyone and she's just smiled when I asked because she finds "funny" when I ask her that. 
- That as soon as she falls for someone she will let me know but only if it gets serious as she does not want to introduce just any man to the kids, she wants to make sure it's serious.
- That she is not interested in my dating life.

Other things to consider:
- Today she did not hug me at all, she just greeted and "said" goodbye with an "elbow" handshake. I can't really understand, our interaction was very positive today, she's even flirted a bit.
- She still keeps all our photos on social media, she is still strongly connected to my family, she likes all my best friends' posts on facebook, she keeps a necklace with a half heart with my initials engraved on it.


Bloody hell, after her attitude today I feel like I don't want to see her anymore, if we didn't have kids and all the pending financial issues, I wouldn't even want to speak to her, I'm tired of this, I've been trying to become a better person since April and I have changed just like she wanted, and I feel stuck. They say that if you want to have your ex back, make sure you look happy, but I just can't. I'll pick up the kids and she will see that I'm moody.

[mark clemson]

Given that there are mixed messages and mention of the possibility of other people for both yourself and her, it sounds like at best she could go either way. Even if you take what she says at face value (which is not 100% guaranteed to be true), it still sounds like you are "Plan B" for the scenario where someone else doesn't come along or work out.

The necklace could easily be worn essentially out of habit and the flirting could be wishful thinking/interpretation/"hopium" on your part.

If I were in this situation and able to take a step back mentally to reflect (easier said than done) I think I would see a woman doing a slow fade on me. She doesn't want to upset you too much - after all you're the father of her children. But she doesn't really want to be with you anymore either. She's literally more than halfway out the door.

If it were me, I think I'd be assuming and planning for the worst at this point.  Another poster here used say you need to put down the "hopium" pipe and my strong impression is that would apply in your case, sadly.

[Sand__ra]

On 8/14/2021 at 9:06 AM, mark clemson said:

Given that there are mixed messages and mention of the possibility of other people for both yourself and her, it sounds like at best she could go either way. Even if you take what she says at face value (which is not 100% guaranteed to be true), it still sounds like you are "Plan B" for the scenario where someone else doesn't come along or work out.

The necklace could easily be worn essentially out of habit and the flirting could be wishful thinking/interpretation/"hopium" on your part.

If I were in this situation and able to take a step back mentally to reflect (easier said than done) I think I would see a woman doing a slow fade on me. She doesn't want to upset you too much - after all you're the father of her children. But she doesn't really want to be with you anymore either. She's literally more than halfway out the door.

If it were me, I think I'd be assuming and planning for the worst at this point.  Another poster here used say you need to put down the "hopium" pipe and my strong impression is that would apply in your case, sadly.

She doesn't wear the necklace, she just keeps it in a drawer, just like her wedding ring. She told me that her boss (which is also divorced) said to my wife she should go back to the "market" but my wife told me she doesn't want to right now, why would she say that to me? I'm totally confused man.

I'll have my last session with my counselor next week, and I will tell my wife that after we are officially divorced, I'm outta here and we will not remain friends. I feel for my kids, but I don't want to live in a room for the rest of my life. I need to sort my life out and that means moving to another country.

Edited September 19, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[mark clemson]

^^ fair enough + up to you (of course). Be cautious on the moving aspect. Depending on how old your kids are that may result in custody issues. But THAT is really a question for a lawyer.

[Sand__ra]

2 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

^^ fair enough + up to you (of course). Be cautious on the moving aspect. Depending on how old your kids are that may result in custody issues. But THAT is really a question for a lawyer.

They are both under 6. But I want her to keep the kids. 

[mark clemson]

Ah, fair enough. Think about them, though. If you divorce, they will no doubt still want to see you at least some of the time. You'll probably want to figure out something that makes sense for both you AND them, at least as much as possible.

Edited August 14, 2021 by mark clemson