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15 year marriage with 2 kids gone down the drain


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On 9/5/2021 at 6:39 PM, mark clemson said:

I'm really not sure what to tell you. Your sister may be right, or her "bluffs" and distancing may turn out to be just another step in a (real) slow fade while she fishes for something better or whatever she is doing. So, dunno.

It would be nice to perhaps tell her to stop trying to emotionally manipulate you (if that's what she's doing) in an effort to be top dog in the marriage or what have you. I would hope your children's happiness and stability would mean more than that. But people who do this sort of thing rarely tend to turn around and "play straight" about it IMO, so I suppose that's rather a unlikely hope.

Given that you don't wish to walk away yourself, your situation seems to defy simple answers. However, everything changes so something is likely to break the holding pattern sooner or later. Your job offer is one potential item, there may be others that occur unexpectedly or (on her side) that you are not aware of. I would NOT give yourself the luxury of assuming things will "go your way" with her when the current equilibrium eventually breaks down. Might, might not.

Thanks for your overview. I'll walk away as soon as I tell her in person that I am open to reconciliation. I'm honestly confused though, every day I get new signals: for example, now she mirrors me on messenger and whatsapp when we text, we're clearly connected but it looks like she's trying hard to convince herself.
She's had 2 days off for herself, she usually tells me about her personal life but this time she has not told me about her activities which means that for some reason she doesn't want me to know. I really don't like the idea of spying, it's wrong, but if I had confirmation that she's into someone else and actually has been meeting that person physically, then I would certainly walk away and get on with my life. 

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On 8/11/2021 at 3:55 PM, Sand__ra said:

My soon to be ex wife (36) fell out of love with me and asked for a divorce and we've been living in separate places since April. 

Sorry this is happening. Unfortunately, separating and filing for divorce doesn't seem too promising.

What were the conflicts/arguments about?

Make sure you hire a good attorney asap. Don't stick your head in the sand with theories.

At this point (separated) both of you can date others and your lives are none of each other's business, except the kids and when to file.

Sadly she just lost interest. Read up on "walk away wife".

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11 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Sorry this is happening. Unfortunately, separating and filing for divorce doesn't seem too promising.

What were the conflicts/arguments about?

Make sure you hire a good attorney asap. Don't stick your head in the sand with theories.

At this point (separated) both of you can date others and your lives are none of each other's business, except the kids and when to file.

Sadly she just lost interest. Read up on "walk away wife".


Multiple things, but mostly money and the fact that I became somehow needy and clingy, but I have worked on that.
As what regards to the money, things are getting better as well. However I think that she still needs a lot of time for herself, I was thinking about swapping roles for a week, I would stay at her place with the kids and she would stay in my room, she really needs to be alone for a while and think things through, and the pressure from the kids and her family (she lives right next to her parents) is not helping, I don't see any happiness in her.  
Anyways, I'll have to meet her in person very soon and I will tell her that I'm open to reconciliation.

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UPDATE:
Ok, so we've had lunch together (she has suggested it, not me), and we actually had a great time considering that she is quite stressed about her job. 
It looks like she is aware that I'm open to reconciliation. I didn't tell her directly but I've said to her "look, if my counselor asked you if I'm open to reconciliation, what would you tell her?" and my wife replied "I would say to your counselor that you're open to reconciliation, that's what I think". 

Also, I've said to my wife that my counselor has suggested that we attend a session as a couple so my wife can vent about the relationship in a safe environment. However my wife has refused by saying that we already spoke a lot about the relationship and that she feels safe with me i.e. not afraid of telling me what she feels.

As what regards to this emoji 😘 she's told me that it's just a "normal kiss" and not romantic interest (I cannot say whether she's bluffing or not, but when we were together she would end her text messages with this same emoji).

She has also suggested that one of the major problems is that I didn't give her enough space when she asked just before her first attempt to divorce (I was stupid just like many others, I know, I thought that asking for space meant divorce, and I acted selfish back then). I think that I'm getting the whole picture now, she felt trapped in the marriage and was forced to leave. She has admitted that the lockdown has strongly influenced that. 


 

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Another UPDATE:
She's called me to speak about the kids and we ended up talking for 2 hours about multiple things. Considering that she has just slept 4 hours last night, she remained on the phone for much longer than I was expecting.

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I think you’re looking for meaning in everything she says and does. Stop with that, because it’s got to be exhausting. 

Listen, is women check out of relationships way before we actually leave. And chances are, she’s the same. So if she’s done, there is nothing you can do other than leave her be. If she feels differently, you’ll know. You won’t need to question it. 

Until then, you’ve got to start moving on and not wait for her. I know it’s hard, but you need to do this. Right now, you’re stuck hoping and praying, while she has checked out. You can’t make someone want to be with you. They either do or they don’t. When they don’t, don’t do the pick me dance. It just pushes away even further. 

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On 9/9/2021 at 1:20 AM, LynneVicious said:

I think you’re looking for meaning in everything she says and does. Stop with that, because it’s got to be exhausting. 

Listen, is women check out of relationships way before we actually leave. And chances are, she’s the same. So if she’s done, there is nothing you can do other than leave her be. If she feels differently, you’ll know. You won’t need to question it. 

Until then, you’ve got to start moving on and not wait for her. I know it’s hard, but you need to do this. Right now, you’re stuck hoping and praying, while she has checked out. You can’t make someone want to be with you. They either do or they don’t. When they don’t, don’t do the pick me dance. It just pushes away even further. 

She's probably checked out but sometimes she doesn't behave as such.
I mean, she's having a rough time at her job now, she wants to quit, but if she quits she won't have any income because it's really hard to find a job which is compatible with the kids. Guess what, she's been speaking to me every day about it (she reaches out, not me), we met twice face to face since Wednesday and today I noticed her eyes sparkling and her face was slightly flushed while we were having lunch together, but she keeps encouraging me to date other girls and she gets curious about it (WTH??). She's comfortable with hugs again...more to follow.

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WTF knows? It seems impossible to really know what she means…I’d personally just trust the words she says…but I’m an idiot, so don’t listen to me. But I really do hope that I’m never at a point where I have to agonize what certain emojis mean. (Or worrying what people “like” on facebook or instagram.)

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UPDATE:
She's quit her job and I was the first to know, she's been sharing a lot of her life with me, I don't reach out, she always does and I just listen. In the meantime she's moved onto a part-time job. Today we went to starbucks and she told me that she's considering selling her wedding ring because it won't fit her fingers anyway. I can't say whether she was serious or not, but I think that it's not a good sign.
As I try to move on, she reaches out and tries to connect, then pulls away again, this is frustrating AF. But I know for sure that she's not seeing anyone, she's focusing on her single life. 
 

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Another UPDATE:
She's reached out again to vent about the kids and other personal things. Now she is hinting that the kids should stay with me every 2 weekends because "her best friend's (which is divorced BTW) kids stay with their father on this pattern". So here she is comparing our situation with her friend's and hinting that she's overwhelmed with the kids because they can't stay with me. No kidding, has she even considered that before asking for a divorce? WTF am I supposed to do here? I really would like to help her (even considering that she's always put the kids before me during our relationship), it's my responsibility as well but I live in a room, she knows I can't afford an apartment, she knows I can't have them here, she knows that they get bored after spending 3 hours with me outside. I see my kids pretty often during the week (unlike her best friend's ex husband) and I see them every weekend (again, unlike her best friend's ex husband) and I think it's quite healthy for us because the gap without seeing each other is much shorter. She's upset again but she didn't tell me why, she's just ignored my text message.

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Stick with the court ordered visitation schedule. Don't confuse your kids.

Don't let your separation/divorce allow them to be used as pawns or using each other as babysitters when either of you want child free time.

The courts order specific custody and visitation schedules for this reason. To protect children's rights when their divorcing parents are too caught up in that to see clearly.

 

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22 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Stick with the court ordered visitation schedule. Don't confuse your kids.

Don't let your separation/divorce allow them to be used as pawns or using each other as babysitters when either of you want child free time.

The courts order specific custody and visitation schedules for this reason. To protect children's rights when their divorcing parents are too caught up in that to see clearly.

 

I don't have a court order yet. We have agreed an informal schedule: 1 mid-week visit + 1 weekend day visit. But this really varies, sometimes I see them more often throughout the week, sometimes I have to pick them up from school, usually I don't go 2 days without seeing them in person.

Anyways, I found on the next day (when I picked up the kids as per scheduled visit) that she wasn't upset with me, she was upset with the kids but hasn't replied to my text because she fell asleep with her phone in hand (allegedly). She was actually quite warm and kissed me in the cheek, I wasn't expecting that to be honest. She was really in a good mood.

Also, on that same day she's posted on her IG and FB stories something like "do what your heart tells you regardless of what others think, life gets much better when you stop thinking about others' opinion".

I've been living my life and trying to move on, but she reaches out more often and seems really comfortable opening up. She's quit her job, which makes me believe that there is really nothing going on with her boss (now former boss) unless she's talking to him on the phone but it doesn't look like it.
Also, she's told me that she would like us 4 (as family) to meet up with my best friend and her wife sometime next month, but she told me we would not show up as a "couple". Does this make any sense?

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On 9/18/2021 at 7:15 PM, Sand__ra said:

Another UPDATE:
She's reached out again to vent about the kids and other personal things. Now she is hinting that the kids should stay with me every 2 weekends because "her best friend's (which is divorced BTW) kids stay with their father on this pattern". So here she is comparing our situation with her friend's and hinting that she's overwhelmed with the kids because they can't stay with me. No kidding, has she even considered that before asking for a divorce? WTF am I supposed to do here? I really would like to help her (even considering that she's always put the kids before me during our relationship), it's my responsibility as well but I live in a room, she knows I can't afford an apartment, she knows I can't have them here, she knows that they get bored after spending 3 hours with me outside. I see my kids pretty often during the week (unlike her best friend's ex husband) and I see them every weekend (again, unlike her best friend's ex husband) and I think it's quite healthy for us because the gap without seeing each other is much shorter. She's upset again but she didn't tell me why, she's just ignored my text message.

You need to figure out a way to give her some overnight breaks from the kids.  You know she's stressed out and exhausted from having them all the time, but you are just full of excuses.  It almost seems like you are trying to blackmail her into getting back together with you by the way you are acting -- "well, if you don't divorce me, you won't be in this situation."  I mean, seriously?  It's not going to work -- it will only make her more resentful of you.  Figure something out.  Get a hotel room for a night or two so that you can have them on the weekends.  Take them on a trip for a night or two. Find a bigger place to live.  And I'm still not really following why you can't have them in your room.  I get that it's small, but you don't have to sit in the room with them for 24 hours.  It's a place to pit stop between going out and doing things and a place to sleep.  Your kids are young -- they will adapt.   

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On 9/20/2021 at 2:03 PM, clia said:

You need to figure out a way to give her some overnight breaks from the kids.  You know she's stressed out and exhausted from having them all the time, but you are just full of excuses.  It almost seems like you are trying to blackmail her into getting back together with you by the way you are acting -- "well, if you don't divorce me, you won't be in this situation."  I mean, seriously?  It's not going to work -- it will only make her more resentful of you.  Figure something out.  Get a hotel room for a night or two so that you can have them on the weekends.  Take them on a trip for a night or two. Find a bigger place to live.  And I'm still not really following why you can't have them in your room.  I get that it's small, but you don't have to sit in the room with them for 24 hours.  It's a place to pit stop between going out and doing things and a place to sleep.  Your kids are young -- they will adapt.   

I appreciate your opinion but I'm not full of excuses, if you knew my kids you would understand. They get bored quite easily. Even if I put my eldest on my PC playing video games (that's pretty much the only activity they can do in my room), he gets bored after 1 hour. The youngest would have nothing left to do in my room, all their toys are at home. The best I can is to swap roles with my wife, she could stay in my room for a full weekend if the landlord agrees. And BTW it's really hard to cope with both outside because it's 1 adult for 2 kids, my wife knows she would struggle as well, on one occasion she joked about giving them for adoption. Having my own place would be the best thing, but it's just not possible at the moment.

I'm not trying to blackmail her, but I have to be honest that I'm quite resentful that she has always prioritized the kids over our relationship and now she can see that the yelling at home is still present. At some point she made me feel worthless like "ok, now I have the kids, I don't need you anymore". I love my kids regardless, they're my responsibility as well, and I usually make life easier for her when, for example, she wants to spend a few hours with her best friends or just by herself, we agree a specific time for me to pick them up. This is not a blackmail, it's just a consequence, but I don't really want her to feel overwhelmed, I'd rather see her happy.

She's getting more comfortable spending time with me but she still avoids physical contact sometimes. Why would she feel uncomfortable if my forearm touches hers for example?


 

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I appreciate your opinion but I'm not full of excuses, if you knew my kids you would understand. They get bored quite easily. Even if I put my eldest on my PC playing video games (that's pretty much the only activity they can do in my room), he gets bored after 1 hour. The youngest would have nothing left to do in my room, all their toys are at home.

Your said your two kids are under age six.  Here is a list of things you can do with them in your room:

  • Play boardgames
  • Build a fort
  • Have a dance party
  • Do a puzzle
  • Read them a book
  • Watch a movie or educational kid's TV show
  • Do arts and crafts (use Google)
  • Do a science experiment (use Google)
  • Buy sugar cookies and decorate them
  • Search "rainy day" ideas on Google
  • Bring some of their toys from your wife's house or buy them some toys to have at your house
  • You can also take them for a walk or to the park or to get ice cream or whatever to get out of the room as needed
Quote

 

And BTW it's really hard to cope with both outside because it's 1 adult for 2 kids, my wife knows she would struggle as well, on one occasion she joked about giving them for adoption.

 

So you can see why your wife might need an overnight break from them?

Quote

She's getting more comfortable spending time with me but she still avoids physical contact sometimes. Why would she feel uncomfortable if my forearm touches hers for example?

She's not interested in a physical relationship with you anymore.  

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On 9/21/2021 at 8:35 PM, clia said:

Your said your two kids are under age six.  Here is a list of things you can do with them in your room:

  • Play boardgames
  • Build a fort
  • Have a dance party
  • Do a puzzle
  • Read them a book
  • Watch a movie or educational kid's TV show
  • Do arts and crafts (use Google)
  • Do a science experiment (use Google)
  • Buy sugar cookies and decorate them
  • Search "rainy day" ideas on Google
  • Bring some of their toys from your wife's house or buy them some toys to have at your house
  • You can also take them for a walk or to the park or to get ice cream or whatever to get out of the room as needed

So you can see why your wife might need an overnight break from them?

She's not interested in a physical relationship with you anymore.  

In theory that would work but:
1 - My room is packed.
2 - My kids get bored with most things you've listed.
3 - My kids won't stop moving unless they are sleeping or eating.
4 - I take them to parks, beaches and play football with them. My wife doesn't do any of that, she's got no time (which I totally understand).
5 - I live in a shared house with 4 other people and the landlord does not want any kids here for more than a few hours.

I understand she could take an overnight break but the best I can do is really swapping with her, it's a practical reason and not because I don't want to. 

I don't really know what she wants, I think she doesn't know what she wants herself. If she sees me upset with something, she gets all sweet and kind. When we are together and she sees me doing something on my mobile phone, she says "leave that girl alone" in a joking manner like she's jealous or she just wants subtle reassurance that I'm not dating anyone. Anyways, I've stopped reaching out unless it's something about the kids. 

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UPDATE:
She reached out a lot up until last Wednesday when we gone our for lunch together, I'm not sure whether she is in love or not, but she blushes a lot when I'm with her and make her laugh. I can confirm that she has not seen anyone else, I think that she just wants space for herself, but the fact that she lives with the kids and her parents is not helping, she doesn't feel free.
What is upsetting me is that I'm trying to move on but she keeps sending mixed signals, for example, on one day she kisses me in the cheek (I don't even ask for it, she automatically leans towards me) and is all nice and sweet, on the next day she gets a bit cold, does not return my phone calls, does not text me back, does not kiss in the cheek etc. this is driving me nuts!! 

I can see that sometimes she puts the effort to be nice and I do the same, but I feel stuck again. It's been almost 6 months since we are living apart, there is some progress regarding the fact that she feels comfortable doing things with me, but that's it.

Not sure if this is related, but I've noticed that she gets stress out quite easily. One of our kid's teacher tested positive for COVID so they sent my kids home for 15 days. My wife called me and she was quite distressed and crying because obviously she didn't want to be locked at home for 15 days. I tried to calm her down by telling her "it could be a false positive, just wait for the second test". And it ended up being a false positive thankfully, hence the kids have gone back to school the next day.

I was wondering if she needs more time apart to sort her feelings out. Is there any female dumper here that could help me to understand the psychology?

 

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On 9/21/2021 at 3:01 PM, Sand__ra said:

She's getting more comfortable spending time with me but she still avoids physical contact sometimes. 

You're the kids' father so this is good co-parenting. Stay away from personal lives, who's dating, romance etc. and focus solely on the kids and their happiness and adjustment to the changes they are being subjected to.

 

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On 10/2/2021 at 5:16 PM, Wiseman2 said:

You're the kids' father so this is good co-parenting. Stay away from personal lives, who's dating, romance etc. and focus solely on the kids and their happiness and adjustment to the changes they are being subjected to.

 

That's what we've been doing but we also do other activities together such as going to IKEA, etc. I'm trying to move on but she reaches out.
Today when I picked up the kids, she smiled at me and blushed again during our conversation.

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UPDATE:
It's been 6 months since we first separated and I'm trying to move on but common events require that we meet often. In the meantime she's started to get comfortable with kiss in the cheek again (she was the one starting it).

Anyways:
- We went shopping clothes for the kids (we are splitting that expense, hence I have demanded to have a say). On the way to the shopping mall she's asked about my new female coworker, she's asked if she is pretty. I said no, she isn't particularly good looking. Why would my wife ask a question like that?
- In the meantime, she's had trouble with her car and the garage was trying to rip her off. So I've helped her with that, I told her what does exactly need to be repaired. I also offered to change the wiper motor because the garage was charging about 4 times more than the cost of a brand new motor. It really hurts my eyes to see things like that. So I've said to her "look, if you want, just buy the motor, I'll replace it (takes about 1 hour) and then you just pay me lunch if you want". She's agreed, but a few days later, when I picked up the kids, she was cold to me. She said she was feeling under pressure and doesn't want me to replace the wiper motor. She also said that she does not feel comfortable with kiss in the cheek again. I was completely fuming inside but I didn't display a bad reaction, I've just said to her "look, I'm completely fine with that, I just offered to help so you could save some money. Do whatever you want with your car, I don't care anymore"
- We are still waiting for the bank to come back to us so we can sort out the financial issues, the divorce cannot be filed before we get this sorted. She's asked me something like "hey, the bank was supposed to come back to us, have you heard from them yet?" I said "no, but feel free to get in touch with them". She hasn't done anything, she doesn't seem really concerned.
- Back in April when I moved out, she changed her last name on social media, her email, and our kids' nursery app. In the meantime, she's changed her last name back to the legal name on the nursery app (which is not required), and this leaves me really confused.
- Since that situation with her car, we've disconnected again and I am really cold to her now as I'm hurt with her actions. Every time we meet because of the kids, I just avoid looking at her and speak the bare minimum. I got to a point where I don't care anymore.
- She has posted on her IG and FB stories something like "If it protects your heart, then it is the right way to go". She's basically trying to convince herself and victimizing at the same time.

But this is the best (or worst) part:
She's having a rough time coping with the kids especially on weekends, on our last phone call she's told me that she feels frustrated and although she hasn't mention it, she seems unhappy, her voice indicates that. I told my kids to behave properly and to cooperate with their mother. I try to have them with me as much as I can, but there's all I can do. I even bought flowers for my kids so they give to my wife as a sign of appreciation, I made clear that they are offering the flowers, not me (although I paid for them). Overall, I'm doing everything I can to support her.

I was considering sending an email to the bank asking them to speed up the process and stating that we would like to start the divorce proceedings ASAP but I'm not sure if that's a good idea. While I'm not afraid of losing her anymore, I would take her back if she displays the respect and love that I deserve and if she apologizes for her actions the same way I have apologized for mine, we need to forgive each other. Perhaps we need more time apart, I try not be present in her life but it's not easy with the kids. It looks like she doesn't really want a divorce but instead using it as leverage to have power over me. However I'm still afraid that if I push for the divorce, it backfires on me. 
She doesn't seem to put any energy to reconciliate but sends breadcrumbs from time to time

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1 hour ago, Sand__ra said:

While I'm not afraid of losing her anymore, I would take her back if she displays the respect and love that I deserve and if she apologizes for her actions the same way I have apologized for mine, we need to forgive each other. 

Respect is earned, not deserved.   

You've apologised for your wrongs, but I'm still seeing problems in some of your behaviour.   "Demanding" that you shop together for kid's clothes since you pay half is a very controlling stance.   Made worse by the fact that you avoid looking at her and only speak to her the bare minimum when you're together.  It must be such an awful shopping trip for both of you.  I can understand you spending your half on clothes which are your choice.   But demanding that you be there is really problematic.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with her FB statement about protecting her heart.   It's actually very good advice for someone who's in the midst of a breakup. 

Her name changes represent her working out how she feels about her names.  It's not about her considering getting back together with you. 

It's nice that you try and help out, but what about things which are really important to her....like moving to CA?  If you'd rather divorce than move to another state for her so that she can be near her family, then your marriage is not worth saving.  

 

 

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2 hours ago, Sand__ra said:

I told my kids to behave properly and to cooperate with their mother. I try to have them with me as much as I can, but there's all I can do. I even bought flowers for my kids so they give to my wife as a sign of appreciation, I made clear that they are offering the flowers, not me (although I paid for them). Overall, I'm doing everything I can to support her.

This is excellent. Great you are putting the kids first even though the heartache of divorcing is looming large.

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15 hours ago, basil67 said:

Respect is earned, not deserved.  

You've apologised for your wrongs, but I'm still seeing problems in some of your behaviour.   "Demanding" that you shop together for kid's clothes since you pay half is a very controlling stance.   Made worse by the fact that you avoid looking at her and only speak to her the bare minimum when you're together.  It must be such an awful shopping trip for both of you.  I can understand you spending your half on clothes which are your choice.   But demanding that you be there is really problematic.
Well, I did not "demand" in an aggressive manner. I've just told her it's not reasonable that she buys whatever she wants because I will always paying half of the bill. I already pay for child support which should be enough to cover the expenses. However, on winter the tendency is to spend more money on clothes. So I've told her "look, I would like to split those extra expenses but I think it's reasonable that I have a say on what we buy, and she's agreed"
Also, when we went shopping she was fairly connected to me, she's even bought some underwear in front of me and she didn't feel uncomfortable. This shopping episode was before her stupid actions regarding her car. There is absolutely no reason for her to suddenly become so cold and rude towards me, that's why now I don't even want to look at her face, she clearly doesn't feel that she's lost me. I'm still friendly towards her though.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with her FB statement about protecting her heart.   It's actually very good advice for someone who's in the midst of a breakup. 
Yes, but why doesn't she keep that thought for herself? My family and friends see her stories.

Her name changes represent her working out how she feels about her names.  It's not about her considering getting back together with you. 

It's nice that you try and help out, but what about things which are really important to her....like moving to CA?  If you'd rather divorce than move to another state for her so that she can be near her family, then your marriage is not worth saving.  
You might be confusing my situation with someone else's. We don't live in the US, we live in Europe. She is near her family, she lives just next to her parents and sister, same house but different floors. Actually, the fact that her parents gave her a house for free with no rent to pay, granted her some leverage. I have no family near me though, I feel alone and I'm suffering, I'm just here (about 10 min. from where they live) because I have a good paying job and because of the kids.
 

 

 

 

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UPDATE:
She's changed her last name again on the nursery app. It's clear that she's changed because she knows that I'm using the app now. When I was not using it, she kept her legal name (which is my last name). She seems unstable...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Sand, after having read your posts and the responses by others it seems to me that you are just beating about the bush and not taking the bull by the horns. Your wife, on the other hand, is treating you like a puppet on a string. There used to be a song by the name Puppet on a string sung by Connie Francis many years ago. Your wife probably knows you better than you know her. She knows your buttons and when to press them. She keeps you spinning like a yoyo, blowing hot and cold and that keeps you guessing. 

It is up to you to decide once and for all what you want to do with your life. It is your life and only you can decide about that but in the final analysis you are the one who has to live it. You cannot keep dancing to her tune for all time to come. I would think you have to take a stand, free yourself from her petticoat strings, man up and call the shots as far as they affect you and your life. You have given her enough time to decide where her head is and now you cannot allow her to continue playing a cat and mouse game with you. Guess you have a lot to think about but you have to be decisive in your actions for your own benefit. You seem to be a guy who is reactive to what your wife does. You now have to be proactive in your response to what she does and says otherwise you will continue to be a puppet on a string. Warm wishes.

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