What would you do?

[FMW]

The guy I've  been involved with for a few years has very good friends who are a married couple (I did a thread on them before about what your choice of friends says about you).  

The woman friend is very possessive and proprietorial of my guy.  He cared for his late wife for 6 years after her cancer diagnosis and the friend couple were there for him during the difficult time before and after his wife's death. His wife was critical of and mean to him prior to her diagnosis, so much so that he moved out.  He moved back in when she was diagnosed and things got some better.

From what I can tell, this friend got used to being the woman he confided in the most (with her husband present) prior to meeting me.  She apparently doesn't want to relinquish that position.  She regularly engages my guy in conversations separate and apart from the rest of the group, whether it's just the four of us or more. 

Friday night I had them and two other couples over for a backyard party.  Twice when my guy went inside for something she immediately got up and followed him inside, once staying inside for 20 minutes while the rest of us were all outside.  It was kind of embarrassing, I could tell a few people were looking at both me and her husband to see our reactions.

I didn't  say anything at all about it, but after everyone left, my guy said he told her how I "ticked a lot of boxes" for him, and that's what they were talking about inside.  (Well that might have been 10 seconds of the conversation but I'm pretty sure that wasn't what she was looking for.)  

I was not happy with the situation, but my style is to observe, figure out what I feel about it and then take whatever action I come to feel is right after thinking it through.  I wasn't ready to talk about it yet. Still don't know what I want to do.

I feel he should have cut the conversation short and not stayed inside alone with her, but I shouldn't have to point that out.  And the fact he brought it up to me the way he did means he knew it wasn't cool.

I certainly don't have any desire to talk to her about it, she would probably just be pleased to know she had bothered me.

I think largely it's a matter of style, and mine is not to confront, but to choose what I'm going to do with the situation.  I certainly don't  want to come off as jealous or whiny, but I'm seriously out of patience with her.

I don't  want to cause any problems with their friendship, but I think she's beyond appropriate boundaries.

What are your thoughts?  At some point I will discuss it with him, when I figure out what I want to say.  But am I being a pushover by not confronting things directly with her?  

 

 

[Pumpernickel]

1 hour ago, FMW said:

But am I being a pushover by not confronting things directly with her? 

No! You’re not a pushover. You’re a sensible & smart woman. This needs to be between you and him, not her. Do not confront her! Because you are absolutely right with these 2 statements  👇🏼
 

“…she would probably just be pleased to know she had bothered me.”

“…he should have cut the conversation short and not stayed inside alone with her, but I shouldn't have to point that out”

(she’s probably worried to lose her “status” as the alpha dog; & the more attention you give her, even if it’s negative attention, the more counterproductive, because to her, you are acknowledging her status by being bothered)

[glows]

Are you concerned that they were talking about you the whole time? Or is it that you're uncomfortable that the two of them were alone in the house, suggesting something far more inappropriate? It seems like a lot of distrust with your partner so I would deal with your partner and the relationship. Backtrack on whether there are any issues between the both of you, deeper ones. You feel like you come second for some reason but why? How are you in any competition with this woman or anything she represents? She has known your husband for longer but she also knew his ex-wife. 

Could this be residual fear or feeling unsure of whether you can measure up to his deceased ex-wife/past marriage? 

My only questions may be about the nature of their conversations. If anything, she seems very needy. This isn't someone who's confident in herself, for example.

I'd have a neutral and calm chat with your partner but first explore any feelings perhaps about the above with the past marriage.

If all else fails and you continue to feel very uncomfortable because of her specifically and her being inappropriate, you can express to your partner that you’re not comfortable having them over or as often so that they are not regularly in touch or in your business. Friendships fade and evolve and perhaps it’s time that this one does one or the other. 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by glows

[FMW]

I doubt I was the topic of conversation at all.  In my experience when I can hear what she talks to him, at length, is about people and events I have nothing to do with, meaning I cannot be part of the conversation.  She's done that from the beginning.  I always felt it was a way to highlight that I was an outsider.

I don't distrust my guy, i don't  think he would do anything innappropriate physically (I don't think he's attracted to her in that way anyway).  She always initiates their conversations,, but he doesn't cut them off.  I don't want to deal with her behavior, especially not in my own home.  He sees more of them now than he used to because I've made a point of always inviting them to things.  I won't be doing that any more.

He's good about boundaries with other women, but this one is a friend he has a bond with.  I don't want him to lose that bond, but I don't want to be "put in my place" by her either.  My problem with him is simply that he let's her claim too much "alone" time with him (usually in front of others, it was just worse in this case).

I don't feel insecure about his relationship with his late wife, but I don't think anyone wants to constantly be reminded of all the shared history by someone else.

To his credit he doesn't contribute a lot to the conversations that I've heard, but the problem is he doesn't stop or redirect her.

 

[FMW]

4 hours ago, glows said:

 It seems like a lot of distrust with your partner so I would deal with your partner and the relationship. Backtrack on whether there are any issues between the both of you, deeper ones. You feel like you come second for some reason but why? How are you in any competition with this woman or anything she represents

Thanks for that, this is why I don't know what to say to him yet.  I have to figure out if this is mostly a me problem.  I have to figure out what is fair for my expectations of him with regard to what she's doing.

I think the big thing right now is to limit my time spent with her.  Let her husband deal with her attachment to another man.

[d0nnivain]

It was 20 minutes not the whole party.  I doubt most people noticed.  You are overreading your friends' reaction. 

Your guy & this woman are friends.  They chatted.  It sounds like your guy sticks up for you & is not even on a slippery slope.  IMO you need to rise above her.  Short of him being outright mean to her, she's not going to get it that you upset.   If you were that upset, the classier move would have been to waltz into your house under the guise of "helping" them because whatever they were doing was taking to long, there must be a problem.  

Read or re-read Sun Tzu's The Art of War.  Keep your friends close but your enemies closer.  Get in there & smother this lady with kindness.  Don't give her an inch to isolate your guy for these private talks.  Muscle in there because you need to show her something or you just have to have her opinion on something in that moment.  I don't care if you are making it up & asking if she can see the Virgin Mary in a slice of bread or an angel in the cloud formation; or what does she think tomorrow's winning lottery numbers will be.  Just interrupt her tete-a-tete before it gets going.  Be transparent.  You want her to know you are breaking it up.   

Edited September 20, 2021 by d0nnivain

[Pumpernickel]

45 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

Read or re-read Sun Tzu's The Art of War.  Keep your friends close but your enemies closer.  Get in there & smother this lady with kindness.

This is great advice and a great book recommendation. (That comment makes me want to read it again; it's somewhere in my bookshelf)

By doing this, she will show her true coloirs eventually, IF she's really your enemy. Because you don't know that yet. She could just be thoughtless, not necessarily excluding you on purpose.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Pumpernickel

[Happy Lemming]

11 hours ago, FMW said:

Friday night I had them and two other couples over for a backyard party.

Don't invite them over any more...  It's your house, why cause yourself extra angst. You know how this woman is, so the next time you schedule a party, don't invite them.

Just invite the other two couples (unless they are very close to this first couple).  Maybe its time to make some new friends, as well.

I don't know that I would confront your guy with any of this; he didn't really do anything wrong.  It was the "woman friend" following him in, she did wrong.

For me... (being male) party etiquette dictates that I hang with the guys and talk football, baseball or cars or I'm with the entire group (men and women).  I don't think I would specifically put myself alone with one of the women at a party/neighborhood get together.

[SumGuy]

This woman is is confidant, best friend and helped him through hell.   Being a friend means attachment, what kind of friend has no emotional attachment to you.

Taking 20 minutes to talk to a friend is not anything to worry about, clearly her husband is not worried.  20 minutes out of how many at the party?  Sure if the party was an hour never cool to ditch a friend; several hours and it is your house with your friends (so you are not alone), really. 

Perhaps there was something to talk about, and I personally would hope if someone was talking about my strong points it would take more than 10 seconds.  So many other reasons popping inside can take a while.    

If it was the husband he went in with suspect you would have no issue. Why is it the gender or sex of a friend makes such a difference?  I'd suggest to think on it all if it was the husband who he acted this way with, if you response is different then, to me that's just jealousy.

Pushover?  No.

If you suspect he is cheating on you with her, yah bring it up, don't wait.

Nevertheless if you expect him to now transfer his confidences to you by all means let him know.   This is major incompatibility territory it seems.  Realize this can come across as making him have to choose between old friends and you.   

[FMW]

I'm  taking every opinion expressed here seriously and will take my time in considering them all.  

To clarify a little -

I would never expect him to change his friendships because of me.  I'm  grateful he had friends to get him through very difficult times, and I'm happy for him that they are still close.  I would much sooner choose to walk away from him than engage in any competition, and I never, ever, issue ultimatums.  If I don't like things, I leave.  But I don't want this to come to that (and there is no imminent danger of that), that's why I'm asking for input.

He asks my opinions and confides in me all the time. I don't think he seeks her out, she comes to him.  

Others have made comments about how she acts with him.  I used to think I was being overly sensitive, but I really don't think I am.  I also have reason to believe her husband is not so ok with it from something he said to someone else.  My guy also mentioned the husband acted "mad" at him about something that night about something but he wasn't sure why.

There are lots of little things over the past few years that lead me to my feelings right now, but I don't want to write books' worth of examples.

[Happy Lemming]

2 minutes ago, FMW said:

I also have reason to believe her husband is not so ok with it from something he said to someone else.  My guy also mentioned the husband acted "mad" at him about something that night about something but he wasn't sure why.

Put two and two together... The husband (of this woman) is not happy about the situation either, thus he has displaced anger at your guy.  He knows his wife is over-stepping certain boundaries, but he has to live with her... so he is going to blame your guy.

4 minutes ago, FMW said:

I would never expect him to change his friendships because of me. 

By dissolving or limiting this friendship, you are also helping out the husband of this woman.  He'll have less angst if your guy and his wife are not at the same function/party/get together.

[d0nnivain]

Which is why I suggested you opt for an interrupt them approach.  It's not a competition but more of marking your territory. 

[mark clemson]

12 hours ago, FMW said:

I don't  want to cause any problems with their friendship, but I think she's beyond appropriate boundaries.

 

That's it in a nutshell. Nothing unreasonable about clarifying what the boundaries are that YOU feel comfortable with and asking your husband to abide by them. She shouldn't "chase" him (if that's what she's doing) or try to push past the boundaries and he should respectfully shut her down when she does. Maybe they could keep 1-1 conversations to phone calls only and when you're at home as one possible example?

[FMW]

I think the immediate answer to my problem is to stop facilitating any time together with them.   Either they or my guy will be the ones to plan things.  And even though it's  really not my style, when we are around them I might try taking the suggestion from @d0nnivain and not allow her to isolate him from the group.  

I'm trying to not let it affect my relationship with him.  My natural reaction - unfortunately - is to distance myself when I'm feeling annoyed, miffed, etc.

 

[FMW]

2 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Maybe they could keep 1-1 conversations to phone calls only and when you're at home as one possible example?

 

Thanks!

Just to note, we're not married nor do we live together (I have no desire for either), so she may be making calls to him I'm not aware of.  

I have no control over what he does, and I don't want to control him.  I just don't like how it makes me feel, so it comes down to what do I do about it?  

[Happy Lemming]

2 minutes ago, FMW said:

My natural reaction - unfortunately - is to distance myself when I'm feeling annoyed, miffed, etc.

Don't distance yourself from your guy... distance yourself from this woman (or couple, since she is married).

It appears your guy was just being polite and a good host.  He went into the kitchen/house to get more (stuff) and she followed him in. I guess he could have cut her short and immediately returned to the group, but my guess is he was being polite to her.  Perhaps he feels he owes her that, since she helped him (in the past). 

[glows]

I agree he was likely being polite and really doubt anyone was keeping track of the time except you and perhaps her husband if he needed her for something or feels joined to the hip. I'd find out more in general about what she wants from your husband and what they are talking about. I think monitoring the minutes that they are in the house together or keeping an eye of the time, being so aware, are all signs that that you are very disturbed by her presence in general. 

Maybe you are jealous that there's another woman who used to know your husband for longer. I can't see this as a threat in any way. If you do perceive her as a no-gooder and someone with her hands in everyone else's business, let your partner know you're not comfortable sharing any details about your personal lives with her. Create better boundaries as a couple and then at least you will know or trust that he can make small talk but none of your personal details are being discussed. 

People like this eventually move on to the latest news, craze, trendy thing and want to be the center of decision making, news, every hype. She'll move on and latch onto other people or news as soon as she sees that your husband or your relationship together is hardly interesting at all or isn't given any personal info about the both of you beyond surface pleasantries. She's there as a guest, not the star attraction so don't treat her as one. 

 

[FMW]

9 minutes ago, glows said:

 I think monitoring the minutes that they are in the house together or keeping an eye of the time, being so aware, are all signs that that you are very disturbed by her presence in general.

 

I feel like that's a result of repeated occurrences over 2 years. 

But I'll review my feelings and try to sort out what might be unprompted jealousy, I will give it serious thought.  

[GeorgiaPeach1]

16 hours ago, FMW said:

The guy I've  been involved with for a few years has very good friends who are a married couple (I did a thread on them before about what your choice of friends says about you).  

The woman friend is very possessive and proprietorial of my guy.  He cared for his late wife for 6 years after her cancer diagnosis and the friend couple were there for him during the difficult time before and after his wife's death. His wife was critical of and mean to him prior to her diagnosis, so much so that he moved out.  He moved back in when she was diagnosed and things got some better.

From what I can tell, this friend got used to being the woman he confided in the most (with her husband present) prior to meeting me.  She apparently doesn't want to relinquish that position.  She regularly engages my guy in conversations separate and apart from the rest of the group, whether it's just the four of us or more. 

Friday night I had them and two other couples over for a backyard party.  Twice when my guy went inside for something she immediately got up and followed him inside, once staying inside for 20 minutes while the rest of us were all outside.  It was kind of embarrassing, I could tell a few people were looking at both me and her husband to see our reactions.

I didn't  say anything at all about it, but after everyone left, my guy said he told her how I "ticked a lot of boxes" for him, and that's what they were talking about inside.  (Well that might have been 10 seconds of the conversation but I'm pretty sure that wasn't what she was looking for.)  

I was not happy with the situation, but my style is to observe, figure out what I feel about it and then take whatever action I come to feel is right after thinking it through.  I wasn't ready to talk about it yet. Still don't know what I want to do.

I feel he should have cut the conversation short and not stayed inside alone with her, but I shouldn't have to point that out.  And the fact he brought it up to me the way he did means he knew it wasn't cool.

I certainly don't have any desire to talk to her about it, she would probably just be pleased to know she had bothered me.

I think largely it's a matter of style, and mine is not to confront, but to choose what I'm going to do with the situation.  I certainly don't  want to come off as jealous or whiny, but I'm seriously out of patience with her.

I don't  want to cause any problems with their friendship, but I think she's beyond appropriate boundaries.

What are your thoughts?  At some point I will discuss it with him, when I figure out what I want to say.  But am I being a pushover by not confronting things directly with her?  

 

 

I had a very similar situation, and here's my two cents' worth:

1. Your partner does not have a strong backbone. Even if this particular issue gets resolved to your satisfaction, there will other issues that arise because he seems like a people pleaser. People pleasers want everyone to like them, so rarely do they take the initiative to do what needs to be done/say what needs to be said. This will put you in repeated instances where you will have to decide whether to complain to your partner, or let it go. This can include instances with both friends and his family.

2. If you go the route of complaining a lot (even though you're justified), YOU will start to be seen as the problem and it will seem like you can't get along with people.

3. You can always wait her out and give her enough rope to hang herself. This is what I did, but it took over a year. Eventually, her behavior became so outrageous that my partner was forced to take action. This route took a lot of turning the other cheek and keeping a lid on my feelings. 

4. Consider the very real possibility that he is talking about you and/or your relationship in a not so pleasant way, at least some of the time. If he has shared any of your private disagreements/fights with her and spun it to make him look like the good guy, then this woman will never like you or treat you with respect. Same thing if he's told her private things about your background, with you not being present and able to give any context. 

[Lotsgoingon]

Yeah, I agree that the partner is the problem here. There will often be friends and various folks who want a partner's time. It is up to the partner to say no and to protect the time and priority of his romantic relationship.

So the woman isn't the problem. She doesn't have a gun, does she? She is not threatening to torture your bf, is she? 

Assuming not, she has no power beyond what your bf allows her to have.

BF can say no, can cut conversations short, on and on. People do this all the time. 

Now as for how to confront bf, I would avoid confronting for a bit. Why? Because frankly, I think your bf may have a "say no" problem--and that problem might reveal itself in other contexts. I think you can hang out to see if bf allows himself to be pushed around by others who don't mean as much to him as you do. Then you can confront ... or just step away from.

 

 

[poppyfields]

13 hours ago, FMW said:

I don't distrust my guy, i don't  think he would do anything inappropriate physically (I don't think he's attracted to her in that way anyway).  She always initiates their conversations, but he doesn't cut them off. 

What makes you think he is not attracted to her or that he would do anything inappropriate? 

I don't mean to interject negativity, but is it possible that they may be having an affair?  It wouldn't be the first time, in fact it happens quite a lot. 

My own story is that my dad had affairs with many of my mom's friends (their mutual friends).  And he wasn't the only one, many of their coupled friends were were having affairs with each other.  

I am very observant and I witnessed it growing up, it's a sad reality, which is one reason I do not believe in the institution of marriage, I think it's a farce but that's another thread for another time.

I think the fact he doesn't cut their conversations off, and disappears into another room with her to talk privately (or rather she follows him which is still odd) is not something to be shuffled under the rug.

I dunno, on its face it seems innocent enough, but there is something about the situation that has you quite uncomfortable (enough to create this thread) and if me I would not assume anything (like they are not having an affair) or rule anything out.

I would not confront as he will only deny as would she.

I suppose all you can do is continuing observing, and if you continue feeling uncomfortable and/or something continues to feels off, pay attention to those feelings and re-think remaining in the relationship, regardless of whether anything untoward between them is happening.

Our bodies send us strong signals, and I have learned to pay attention.  I for one do not enjoy feeling anxious, insecure or uncomfortable and when I do that is my cue to exit the situation.

The title of this thread asks "what would you do"?    Well, that is what I would do; at this point in my life, when something feels off, it typically is off. And again, I exit the situation.  

What's that popular saying?  Where there is smoke, there is fire?

Sadly, I have found that saying to be true in more cases than not.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by poppyfields

[FMW]

Thanks for all thoughts and opinions.

I've  been through infidelity, that's  not the warning my body is giving me, that's not what I'm  seeing from him.  Anything is possible, I just don't see it as that.

My issue is how to handle a woman I feel is purposely trying to "put me in my place" and whether or not I should bring it up with my guy.  

The responses here have already helped me see things more clearly.  I see my part in this and will be handling things differently in the future.

[elaine567]

 I agree with Poppy. an affair either past, present or even future.
 I know you want to give this guy a pass as he is a "poor grieving widower", but plenty  of "poor grieving widowers" are having affairs with willing women, who feel sorry for them and get too close... 
The husband is alerted and appropriately expressed displeasure at your guy,
Though not actually saying it in words he was implying... .
"Stay away from my wife..."
I think it is a bit naïve to think nothing is going on with those two...

[d0nnivain]

5 hours ago, FMW said:

My issue is how to handle a woman I feel is purposely trying to "put me in my place" and whether or not I should bring it up with my guy.  

You handle her by handling her.  Don't nag at him.   You can talk to him.  You need to tell him that she makes you jealous.  Praise him for being loyal etc. but ask that he cut short private chats with her when the couples get together & ask that you two do fewer things with them 

I understand your preferred method of dealing when you feel like this is to back off but he make take that as permission for him to carry on.  So you have to fight your nature & step forward.  

You got this.  He's a good guy.  She just needs to be put in her place, outside the boundary you draw around your relationship.  

[FMW]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

I know you want to give this guy a pass as he is a "poor grieving widower"

I'm not giving him a pass.  I'm trying to look at the situation clearly.