I think I pushed the crazy button

[viatori patuit]

Greetings.

I haven't been here in a while.  If you look at my post history (and so many do here) you will see I have had a wild ride with my wife.  I can tell you stories, but suffice it to say that we have not always gotten along.  We have a two year old together and she has two other kids from a previous marriage.  

I am the first to admit I had much to do with this situation.  I am sure there is much that I could have done better or different.   We have had our share of fights but for a couple of years now I have attempted to either refrain from fighting or else simple not say anything that is unpleasant.   I have been very successful.  She is a highly emotional person and she loves to get her fight on when she feels that she is not getting something that she wants.  For my part this is whole situation is new - I never really fought in my previous marriage and this is pretty foreign to me.

As a couple we both met after or respective divorces.  We hit the infatuation stage and it was great!  While volatile our relationship was always moving forward albeit at a very random pace.  I think I loved her for a long time, but over time the gulf between us simply got too large.  We were  both struggling when we met, but I am well educated and I am now highly successful.  I make a great deal of money.  So does she, but by far I make more.  As many of you can guess, this has worsened the situation.  Some of the things she has said to me are beyond reprehensible.  I am not talking about names, but rather comments.  An example would be when she flat out told me she like having sex with other partners she has had much more.  Needless to say this type of thing gets rug swept by her.  I have repeatedly confronted her about this comment in particular as I am not sure I can stay with a person that thinks this type of thing.  She has said it was acceptable and she stands by it.  And that is a simple example.  There are many, many more.

After  years of trying to be a better spouse I have come to the following realizations:

1.  She believes she married down and that she is better than me.

2.  I am a wallet to her and her children.  Nothing more, nothing less. 

3.  My needs are secondary to her desires.  If she doesn't get everything she wants my needs will go unfulfilled.

Because of my daughter I have been hesitant to make drastic changes.  The state I live in uses the tender years doctrine and the mother would have significantly more control over the child until she is 30 months..  This year though we have spent essentially 6 months in total silence between us.  That was enough. I made the decision that this likely could not work.  But because of my daughter, I am willing to keep trying.  I won't do that without legally separating our assets however.   Someone once told me that hope is not a strategy and the concept of leaving an exposure that large seems like hope to me.  

I presented the separation paperwork to her two weeks ago.  I told her that we could work on things, and that I would continue to pay for various items.  She would not be entitled to maintenance or any of the assets I earn after this day though.  She simply refused to deal with the issue.  She pretended that everything was all better and that it was just a rough patch.  After 10 days of inaction, my attorney emailed her asking for her to sign a waiver of service so we could continue on the process.

That was the crazy button.  That evening I got a text where it appears my wife put make up on my child and accused me of hitting her.  Her exact words were "was that a slap or a punch?"   Of course I did not respond.  Then she said she would report it.  That did not happen either.  What did happen is that she kidnapped my daughter and is attempting to run to California.  Without acknowledging the service she can do this without issue.  There has been no contact since her insane text and she spent last night in a hotel nearby.  I confirmed the flight she is on and she will be served in probably an hour and forth five minutes.  I doubt that will stop her from getting on the plane, but she will be violating a court order at that point.  

 

I am curious what people think of this situation.  Does this seem an overstated response on either of our parts?

[Wiseman2]

18 minutes ago, viatori patuit said:

We have a two year old together and she has two other kids from a previous marriage. I won't do that without legally separating our assets however.  that large seems like hope to me.  

I presented the separation paperwork to her two weeks ago. She would not be entitled to maintenance or any of the assets I earn after this day. What did happen is that she kidnapped my daughter and is attempting to run to California.  Without acknowledging the service she can do this without issue.  she will be served in probably an hour and forth five minutes.  I doubt that will stop her from getting on the plane, but she will be violating a court order at that point.  

Keep in touch with your attorney to work with you on what your legal recourse is and what is best for your child. Does she have family where she is traveling to with the children?

[viatori patuit]

Yes.  Her sister lives in California.  We had a huge fight in 2020 because she wants to move there.  I think I would almost rather go to jail.  

 

I keep my mouth shut no matter what.  I am actually in law school right now.  It is amazing to me how people let emotion run wild in these situations.  

 

 

[basil67]

Back up a bit....why did you have a huge fight about moving to California?   When you say that you'd rather go to jail, do you mean that you'd prefer jail over California?  

 

[Pumpernickel]

not sure why you call it the crazy button - I think divorce is always a serious matter, especially with children  involved …… but I don’t see how any judge could think that she’s got a legal leg to stand on  (not a lawyer though, but common sense….??)
 

I mean, she basically told you she’s not sexually attracted to you. Based on that, and seeing that she’s not even trying to hide that from you, AND rubbing it in your face that previous lovers were “better”, you’re not wrong to end the relationship. There’s really no respect left on her part, and I don’t feel like you have a lot of respect for her either. What I don’t understand is how anyone can run off with three children in the middle of the school year. I’m assuming the two older ones that are only hers are school aged?

It will be interesting to hear what your lawyer says with regards to her moving your very young daughter out of state without your consent. I mean you’re still the father and if it is true that she is in fact currently on legally solid ground - because she ignored his previous correspondence ——-> I am sure you can prove somehow that she was aware that your intentions were to legally separate/divorce.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Pumpernickel

[salparadise]

1 hour ago, viatori patuit said:

She is a highly emotional person and she loves to get her fight on when she feels that she is not getting something that she wants.  For my part this is whole situation is new - I never really fought in my previous marriage and this is pretty foreign to me.

So much of this pattern is familiar to me. My ex-w had similar behavior and tactics... saying some of the most hurtful things imaginable to get the upper hand, using the threat of open conflict (or actuality) to get her way, lack of emotional regulation, setting everything up as a tug-o-war between she and I, acting like I was the sole source of her unhappiness when the truth is that it all came from within and I was just a convenient target. She even pulled a number where she threatened to call the cops and have me arrested for hitting her! –– I said, here, how 'bout I call them for you, and I dialed 911 and got her to repeat her threats while the line was open (which she didn't realize). Anyway... like you, I had not had any history of this kind of conflict in relationships, and haven't subsequently either.

Bottom line, she had BPD (borderline personality disorder), although high functioning and able to hold a good job. This wasn't officially diagnosed, because she refused to ever set foot in a therapist's office, but I went to a therapist when I researched and found the criteria in the DSM. Of course the therapist could not diagnose her, but he educated me on how it works and how to respond (essentially confirming my suspicions). 

So no, I don't think that you're overreacting. At this point you need to work through the system and let the lawyers do the communicating. If she gets on the plane with your daughter in violation of the court order, I can't imagine that this would not work in your favor. I'm sorry to hear that it's deteriorated so far, but that's also not too surprising given what you've described. 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by salparadise

[viatori patuit]

12 hours ago, basil67 said:

Back up a bit....why did you have a huge fight about moving to California?   When you say that you'd rather go to jail, do you mean that you'd prefer jail over California?  

 

I was being flippant.  She wants to move to california to follow her sister.  I do not.  I have no interest in living in California.  That was only one of many fights she wanted to pick about various things.  

[Wiseman2]

Well it seems you have been incompatible for most of this marriage. 

This will be your third divorce so you must know the ropes by now.

Is this your only child? Focus on the child's best interest. Before during and after the divorce.

[viatori patuit]

She got served 40 minutes before she got on the plane.  And yes, she did get on the plane. I have elected to allow her to do this rather than sicking the sheriff on her.  I don't want my daughter going through that trauma.  I would rather just see her next week.  I have my daughter's passport physically on me so they cannot leave the country.   My wife is from Canada so I suppose there is a slight risk of flight, but I think she likes money too much to do that.

I am headed to Mexico today for a few days.  I think I will just go and decompress for a while.  

its very therapeutic to put this all down here and look at it.  I know my wife is trying to drag me to an emotional level.  It is difficult to avoid that result if I don't vent it somewhere.  Right now I just want my daughter safe.  I believe she is and that is really important to me.  I also know the next step will be her seeking an emergency order accusing me of child abuse and barring me from seeing my daughter.  Of course that will fail but I won't see my daughter for about a month.  It seems a shame that there is no recourse and that she can accuse me publicly of a felony and have no consequences.

I am resolute that her actions have vindicated my suspicions.  Clearly I have made the correct choice.  Now I just have to be ready for six months of utter chaos while the system works. My wife has done some pretty heinous things, particularly in her previous marriage.  Of course I will have drag all this out to prove that she is lying about whatever nonsense she creates in her head.  Why do people insist on such self destructive behavior?

[Blind-Sided]

I understand how it can be therapeutic to write it down, and get input from total strangers. I was there 2 years ago. 

Knowing she has gone crazy, and left to CA regardless of what the order said... I would have her hunted down, and let her sister know that she will be charged with "Aiding and Abetting" if she is allowed to say with her.  I know that sounds extreme, but if there is any risk of flight (and she already proved there is) it's what honestly needs to be done. 

I'm sorry your life is in the position... but you know it needs done.  Focus on your kid, and she will have a happy life regardless of what mom is doing. 

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, viatori patuit said:

Of course I will have drag all this out to prove that she is lying about whatever nonsense she creates in her head.  

You seem to be getting way ahead of yourself. It's not a criminal trial, it's a divorce (your third, right?).

Relax. You'll have  custody/visitation and the courts will divide up your assets according to your local jurisdiction.

[mark clemson]

There are always two sides to every story, but I'd say you're well advised generally speaking to hold your ground and continue to be calm, rational, and civil about matters. Consider having evidence to counter any false claims of abuse (discuss with your attorney) such as, hypothetically, pinning down a time striking your child supposedly occurred and being able to provide an alibi with supporting evidence to counter it.

Overall, you could consider "letting her dig her own grave for you" by tracking and documenting all false claims and unreasonable behaviors, such as taking your child out of state (which denies you your parental rights, such as time with your child). This sort of stuff is not likely to look good once it's revealed in court and might (or might not) impact an outcome. However, SPECIFICS on what you should do and how to document things (assuming you do that) must be left to a licensed attorney familiar with your specific jurisdiction.

There are those in the world who one really shouldn't start LTRs or have children with and it may be that you have done this and so now must face the situation. It's also true that people change over time and sometimes they start out nicer but gradually become worse until you are left dealing with someone who has become very difficult. Not an easy situation to be in.

[IrinaM]

Quote

We were  both struggling when we met, but I am well educated and I am now highly successful.  I make a great deal of money.  So does she, but by far I make more.

Quote

I am actually in law school right now. 

I haven't read all the thread, but how is it possible that you are both a highly successful, high-income earner and simultaneously a law school student? 

and you're also able to just take off to mexico for a few days, while enrolled in law school?

Edited October 1, 2021 by IrinaM
finished reading thread

[glows]

Destress and counselling are needed for you. This is already headed towards divorce so let the issue go. You will see your daughter if you aren't leaving out any other info. Take good care of yourself and good luck with your courses. You cannot change what's already happened. 

[basil67]

11 hours ago, viatori patuit said:

I was being flippant.  She wants to move to california to follow her sister.  I do not.  I have no interest in living in California.  That was only one of many fights she wanted to pick about various things.  

Why are you blaming this fight on her?   Raising a desire to live nearer to family is not "picking a fight".    Sounds like you were as much of the problem in this argument as her.

[Pumpernickel]

14 hours ago, basil67 said:

Sounds like you were as much of the problem in this argument as her.

I’m sure he was, but OP says he has a good job right where he’s at, and his wife likes the lifestyle he provides her with, so just moving to a different state on a whim isn’t necessarily the reasonable choice for every family. 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Pumpernickel

[Wiseman2]

17 hours ago, basil67 said:

Raising a desire to live nearer to family is not "picking a fight".  

Agree. Talking about moving is not grounds for divorce.  Visiting her family with her kids is not "kidnapping". 

You're not divorced so there is no custody specifications or custodial interference and as their parent, she has every right to visit family with her kids. 

Relax and one step at a time. 

 

 

 

 

[viatori patuit]

20 hours ago, IrinaM said:

I haven't read all the thread, but how is it possible that you are both a highly successful, high-income earner and simultaneously a law school student? 

and you're also able to just take off to mexico for a few days, while enrolled in law school?

Good question.

I am in law school as a bucket list item.  I have been enrolled multiple times in my life but I just never got around to doing it.  I have a very successful job and I make a great deal of money (not braging, just facts).  To be fair, she makes a lot of money too, just not as much as me.  If I fail out of law school and never practice law or if I pass and ace the bar it matters not one bit to my career.  I am set and no longer need to go to school.  I admit I will likely make more money when I graduate though.  It will enhance my career for sure.  It also gives me another skill to fall back on if something goes wrong.

Law school is now virtual and has been since the start of covid.  I am in a hybrid program (online primarily with some in class time) but there has been zero class time since I started.  likewise I work remote.  I can work from anywhere in the world I feel like going.  The only thing stopping me from travel right now is covid.  I am sure once the virus is under control I will be back to traveling the world like I have for some time.  

One other point in her fighting style.  I don't think I have explained completely how irrational she can be.  The california move was a demand, not a request.  And under no circumstances do I HAVE to move there.  It is my choice to consider it a place I would never live.  Quite frankly you couldn't pay me enough to live there and it is not like that has been a secret.  My wife lived there when she first emigrated to the US and she loved it. She knew from that conversation that I wasn't ever moving to california.  This is how she works - she demands/sets up impossible demands and then fights when I don't completely agree.  I think I have started perhaps 5 fights in our entire marriage.  I apologized for each and every fight I started and I no longer bring that subject up.  

Sure I have my faults.  I don't mind dealing with those.  There is only so much I can do on my own.  She needs to step up and deal with her issues too.  We tried counseling, but she dismissed the counselor.  She said she wanted to find another, and I was fine with that.  I expected her to find the next one (I found the first one).  Eight months later and she still hasn't found one.  Zero effort too.   If she found one now I would jump at the chance to go.  

Finally, what she did is in violation of a court order and could be construed as kidnapping.  Taking a child out of state directly in contravention of a court order is a criminal offense.  Depending on the circumstances it could be kidnapping with interstate flight.  She shouldn't have left and I have every right to have the sheriff bring my child back to me and have her arrested.  Of course I would never do that.  To be frank I am not interested in doing that.  It doesn't benefit me at all and it hurts my daughter.  I wish this to be as civil as it can be.  I will not covert the action into a divorce, that is for her to do.  As far as I am concerned I am happy to simply separate the assets so that I can continue to work on this with her without fear of losing more money.  I think everyone would agree that there is a probability that this will fail.

 

[basil67]

If you have every right to refuse to move to Cali, why did your wife not have every right on insisting to move there?   If you can put your foot down and refuse to negotiate, then both of you have that right.   Honestly, if it was important to my husband to live somewhere, I'd follow him to the ends of the earth.  Likewise, I know he'd do the same for me.  Even more so if it meant keeping the family unit intact.  But apparently both of you think differently to us.

Sounds to me like both of you valued location more than you valued a family unit.  This being the case, it's probably best that you've split up.   But I do wonder if refusing to consider moving state was worth losing your kids over.   While it's true that she shouldn't have taken them without court approval, have you shot yourself in the foot by refusing to leave?

[Wiseman2]

15 hours ago, viatori patuit said:

I am happy to simply separate the assets so that I can continue to work on this with her without fear of losing more money.  

Were your other two divorces expensive? You don't mention other children so you're not paying child support are you?

Unless you have a rock solid prenuptial agreement, how do you propose to "not lose more money"?

She's working and earns well so do you mean the usual division of marital assets?

Of course hiding money in contemplation of divorce can backfire.

Talk to a qualified licensed attorney in your jurisdiction who specializes in divorce.

When you frankly and honestly discuss your situation you'll have better answers as to what your options are given your particular situation.

You've been through enough divorces to know it's not a DIY situation.

What was the point of the airport drama? Scare tactics? 

[viatori patuit]

Both good questions.

First, she can demand whatever she wants.  For instance, I can demand anal sex as something I absolutely want (not true, but an example).  If she says she doesn't want something then I think that is a hard stop to the conversation.  I don't think I have a right to tell someone they have to negotiate about something they find distasteful.  I don't think there is an issue with asking why they don't like it, but I don't feel we can argue with someone about how they should feel about anything.  If they don't like it then they don't like it.  My choices are to accept their decision or leave at that point.  

Along these lines there was another time not too far after that where I mentioned I might want to move to Georgia for a very lucrative opportunity.  Her response was "no.  I won't live somewhere that doesn't make me happy."  I accepted that and accommodated the decision.  I think its pretty clear that people need to negotiate in a relationship.  I also think some people who have never had a truly abusive spouse do not understand just how difficult that can be.  make no mistake, her behavior is abusive.  Gas lighting, abusive names, insane behavior.  All of it is textbook.  I spent some time out here and I recognize my wife in all of the abusive posts.  She is very good at it too.  Were you to talk to her without knowing the whole story I am sure she sounds very believable.  

As for the money - that is an easier question.  In the state in which I live maintenance is still a thing.  Any marriage over three years is consider maintenance eligible.  They will give maintenance to the lesser earning spouse for half the time of the marriage.  I am beginning to accumulate a large pool of assets as well.    Separation is a fancy way to say post nup.  Except it is ironclad because its a court order.  I need to stop allowing her access to funds.  It is interesting that of all the fights we had and all the insanity she inflicted on our relationship this is the time that she leaves and moves out.  As soon as the money ran out she took off. 

I am starting to get a bit angry now.  I really miss my daughter and of course she smugly refuses to share her.  I know I have another month of this nonsense.  It will stop at the temporary hearing where a temporary order will be issued and she will not be able to withhold her anymore.  It is very difficult to not lash out.  Of course to do that would be destructive to my position.  I simply have to focus on the fact I will see my daughter again.

[Wiseman2]

51 minutes ago, viatori patuit said:

I really miss my daughter and of course she smugly refuses to share her. 

Is she still on vacation visiting family with her kids? How old is your child?

[viatori patuit]

No.  She moved into a persons house she knows from her daughter's school.  I know where it is, but obviously I avoid it like the plague.   She believes I have no idea where they are and I would like to keep it that way.

She is back in the state.  Of course she is violating a couple of court orders (including the court order governing her children from a previous marriage).  Obviously she has done nothing regarding the legal paperwork I served.

My daughter is 28 months old.  I haven't seen her in a week and it really is very difficult.  I struggle a bit with not getting angry.  I know rationally getting angry is not useful, but it is sometimes a bit difficult to control.  I think it will be another 3-4 weeks until I will get to see her.  At that time we will get a temporary order that will force my wife to allow me to see my daughter.  

[Wiseman2]

3 minutes ago, viatori patuit said:

No.  She moved into a persons house she knows from her daughter's school. 

My daughter is 28 months old.  I haven't seen her in a week and it really is very difficult.  

Why did she flee and keep her location undisclosed? Did she move out? Why are you afraid to call her? Did she get a restraining order against you?

[viatori patuit]

Because she is not stable.  She believes things that are simply untrue.  She has a history of this behavior.  In her last divorce she lied to get a relocation order to move to the state where we currently reside.  She is convinced that she and she alone is capable of deciding how things should go with my daughter.  If I am patient I will see my daughter again.  Of course I have good days and bad, but so far I am resolute that I will wait this out.

She has not sought to obtain a restraining order.  She cannot.  If she does it gets litigated.  There is no evidence to support a restraining order because I have done nothing wrong.  If she filed for one she would lose the ability to litigate on that later as it was already found that there was no abuse.  She might at a later date, but it would be a big gamble with very little chance of success.  In the state in which I live there has to be concrete evidence of abuse - police reports, domestic violence, child protective services involvement.  Anything that can indicate that there is a pattern.  A woman screaming abuse after her husband files is not going to likely be given serious attention.  The pattern has to precede the filing.

 

I have texted her once.  She did not respond.  Again, this is her MO.  She will just pretend I have zero rights and she is infallible.  While ultimately I will win a custody battle it will be somewhat hollow.  I am sure she will get away with hiding my daughter and behaving like this without any consequences.  This makes me the most upset.  It seems that a court should punish someone for doing this, but they do not.  It is the inherent bias against men in the court system under family law.  Were I to do anything similar to this I am sure I would end up in jail.

Edited October 5, 2021 by viatori patuit