I think I pushed the crazy button

[Pumpernickel]

1 hour ago, viatori patuit said:

I am sure she will get away with hiding my daughter and behaving like this without any consequences.  This makes me the most upset.  It seems that a court should punish someone for doing this, but they do not.  It is the inherent bias against men in the court system under family law. 

Not sure what your location is, but in my state either parent who disobeys a judge's/magistrate's order will get into trouble with the family court.
They can and will impose serious penalties (fines and criminal charges even), and could lose custody as well. 

She sounds like she's got some experience with the subject matter, due to her previous divorce in which kids were involved. Glad you're in good hands with your lawyer!

[viatori patuit]

Thank you.  We shall see.  I hope you are correct.  

I am just furious that I cannot see my daughter because her dumb ass has delusions.  I can understand how people allow themselves to get sucked into super bad decisions.  I have snapped at everyone except her.  I have sent two texts (both unanswered) and I will send no more.  basically I have to completely behave while she runs around being an unmentionable word here.  

As an aside, she admitted to me that she committed perjury in her last divorce.  She submitted false documents as part of discovery to hide how much money she really had.   I was and am appalled that she did this.  She literally cheated her ex-husband out of his kids.   So, I pose this question:  I think this is obviously fair game for my action.  Clearly her willingness to cheat is unbounded and it should be shown in court.  The question is - should I alert the ex-husband?  I want to, not because of my situation but mostly because what she did is despicable.  I will admit I am not thinking completely clearly though and I am curious what others have to say.

[spiderowl]

On 9/30/2021 at 10:41 PM, viatori patuit said:

Greetings.

I haven't been here in a while.  If you look at my post history (and so many do here) you will see I have had a wild ride with my wife.  I can tell you stories, but suffice it to say that we have not always gotten along.  We have a two year old together and she has two other kids from a previous marriage.  

I am the first to admit I had much to do with this situation.  I am sure there is much that I could have done better or different.   We have had our share of fights but for a couple of years now I have attempted to either refrain from fighting or else simple not say anything that is unpleasant.   I have been very successful.  She is a highly emotional person and she loves to get her fight on when she feels that she is not getting something that she wants.  For my part this is whole situation is new - I never really fought in my previous marriage and this is pretty foreign to me.

As a couple we both met after or respective divorces.  We hit the infatuation stage and it was great!  While volatile our relationship was always moving forward albeit at a very random pace.  I think I loved her for a long time, but over time the gulf between us simply got too large.  We were  both struggling when we met, but I am well educated and I am now highly successful.  I make a great deal of money.  So does she, but by far I make more.  As many of you can guess, this has worsened the situation.  Some of the things she has said to me are beyond reprehensible.  I am not talking about names, but rather comments.  An example would be when she flat out told me she like having sex with other partners she has had much more.  Needless to say this type of thing gets rug swept by her.  I have repeatedly confronted her about this comment in particular as I am not sure I can stay with a person that thinks this type of thing.  She has said it was acceptable and she stands by it.  And that is a simple example.  There are many, many more.

After  years of trying to be a better spouse I have come to the following realizations:

1.  She believes she married down and that she is better than me.

2.  I am a wallet to her and her children.  Nothing more, nothing less. 

3.  My needs are secondary to her desires.  If she doesn't get everything she wants my needs will go unfulfilled.

Because of my daughter I have been hesitant to make drastic changes.  The state I live in uses the tender years doctrine and the mother would have significantly more control over the child until she is 30 months..  This year though we have spent essentially 6 months in total silence between us.  That was enough. I made the decision that this likely could not work.  But because of my daughter, I am willing to keep trying.  I won't do that without legally separating our assets however.   Someone once told me that hope is not a strategy and the concept of leaving an exposure that large seems like hope to me.  

I presented the separation paperwork to her two weeks ago.  I told her that we could work on things, and that I would continue to pay for various items.  She would not be entitled to maintenance or any of the assets I earn after this day though.  She simply refused to deal with the issue.  She pretended that everything was all better and that it was just a rough patch.  After 10 days of inaction, my attorney emailed her asking for her to sign a waiver of service so we could continue on the process.

That was the crazy button.  That evening I got a text where it appears my wife put make up on my child and accused me of hitting her.  Her exact words were "was that a slap or a punch?"   Of course I did not respond.  Then she said she would report it.  That did not happen either.  What did happen is that she kidnapped my daughter and is attempting to run to California.  Without acknowledging the service she can do this without issue.  There has been no contact since her insane text and she spent last night in a hotel nearby.  I confirmed the flight she is on and she will be served in probably an hour and forth five minutes.  I doubt that will stop her from getting on the plane, but she will be violating a court order at that point.  

 

I am curious what people think of this situation.  Does this seem an overstated response on either of our parts?

I am sorry to hear about your situation.  My first thoughts are:

- you haven't been getting on with her for some time now, so it is fair enough you want to leave

- you share a child (and presumably have some affection for two other children) so it is difficult and they need to be taken into consideration

- you decided to continue on with her but to separate assets, this being a reasonable strategy to you

- you served her with separation papers out of the blue and expected a reasonable response

- she probably went into shock and denial after being served the papers and didn't know what to do

- after the initial shock, she probably talked to friends about how to proceed and she (and they) thought you might try anything, maybe even take your child

- she wasn't sure what might happen next, how serious you were, and so tried to brush it off

- your solicitor tried to continue the separation formally and your wife panicked and ran off with your child

Overall, your wife did not have time to adjust to the shock you presented her with.  I am not saying you were not right to separate, but she needed time to emotionally adjust to the new situation.  Following up shortly with more action from your solicitor would send her into panic.  That is one reason you are facing this situation now.

I can see your reasoning as to why to separate assets but from a relationship point of view it is nonsense.  You are either in a relationship or not.  You are either separated, physically and financially, or not.  You cannot expect her to continue living with you while you are hiving off your financials elsewhere.  This is regardless of whether you earn more than she does or not.  

If you want to try to make this relationship work, you would need to express that to your wife and offer evidence of this.  You would need to stop all proceedings and agree to marital counselling with her.  She may agree to this or not.  If she agrees, then you need to be wholehearted about it too.  

If you do not want to attempt reconciliation (and it sounds like you are both past that point), then take your solicitor's advice, separate properly, and sue for access to your child.  It may not go entirely in your favour but it would be better than your child disappearing altogether.

It sounds like you have set out on a hard road which was inevitable if your marriage was not working.  I hope you come through this with a fair deal.  One thing to remember, though, if you want to make a separation and divorce work, is to allow time for your wife to come to terms with whatever next step you take before taking the next one.  While you may have reasoned your way through to the separation and legal proceedings, your wife was way back in denial that your relationship was ending.  She was nowhere near ready to absorb the confusing idea of separation that you sprung on her.

[Wiseman2]

7 hours ago, viatori patuit said:

I am just furious that I cannot see my daughter because her dumb ass has delusions

What delusions are those? It's not looking good for you if she fled from you with her children to an undisclosed location. Don't use your child as a pawn in the divorce.

You'll need to consult with your attorney. You'll have to go by the laws in your jurisdiction regarding the divorce process and custody arrangements.

You're all over the place already about character assassinations. Not sure how that's going to legally spare you the costs of yet another divorce. Or with regard to custody.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Wiseman2

[viatori patuit]

Well the time has come and gone for her to file an emergency order.  She didn't.  She did call and speak to the police though.  The police told her they would reach out to me and set up and interview.  That was 2 weeks ago and I have not heard a peep.  How big a deal can it be if they forgot about it? 

She has a contempt order pending now.  While this separation is very hard, it is likely that she will lose custody of my daughter to me due to her actions.  I cannot believe how stupid she is.  She is so convinced that her delusion of abuse is true that she is willing to risk never seeing her daughter again to protect her.  This even though her own attorney must have told her there was zero evidence to support her delusion (hence the lack of filing).  

 

[basil67]

22 minutes ago, viatori patuit said:

While this separation is very hard, it is likely that she will lose custody of my daughter to me due to her actions.

On what grounds are you suing for custody?  Do you have evidence of the child being at risk?    Is not being able to see her mother in your child's best interests?

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by basil67

[viatori patuit]

Its complicated.  Lets leave it at that.  The grounds are sufficient given her current behavior.

 

Of course I could still lose the full custody battle.  Even if I do it goes back to 50/50.

[Wiseman2]

11 hours ago, viatori patuit said:

She did call and speak to the police though.   she will lose custody of my daughter to me due to her actions. 

So she did flee from you. You're just using your child to be vindictive. Based on that alone, not to mention her moving to an undisclosed location seems like her "delusions" of abuse aren't delusions.

[Blind-Sided]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

So she did flee from you. You're just using your child to be vindictive. Based on that alone, not to mention her moving to an undisclosed location seems like her "delusions" of abuse aren't delusions.

I wouldn't say that at all. I know we normally see eye to eye on things, but we don't have all the facts, and the mother trying to flee across country is more questionable than her finding help local. AND... under the law... regardless if she is the mother or not... that is still kidnapping.  I think our OP is probably doing the right thing. 

As you know, I went through a divorce where my exW tried to use abuse to get her way.  She tried to get a restraining order on me, and went to the local abuse center to get help claiming I was abusing her and our kids. And like our OP... there was no proof. (no police reports, no reports from the kid's schools, or Dr's reports) In none of this... did I think she would hurt the children, so I didn't try for a full custody order.  But it made it an uphill battle for me, and I realized how crazy someone can become.

I don't feel our OP is being vindictive.  Especially since there is a real possibility she could flee and disappear. 

[viatori patuit]

I am confused by these comments.  Of course she left.  She fled if you like.  She did not like what was happening and she took her kids and went somewhere else. Thats her right and it means nothing by itself.  If you want to infer that I did something wrong that is your prerogative.

So what?  In the state I live in, this is a very simple process.  If a spouse leaves for fear of abuse they must get an emergency order for custody.  Absent that order custody is assumed 50/50.  In her case she is willfully withholding my daughter.  That is a problem for her.  It doesn't matter if she doesn't think she can let my daughter go.  It doesn't matter if she thinks I am the devil himself.  She either gets the emergency order or she relinquishes custody to me for half the time.  There is no third alternative.  This is why there are already contempt charges filed and she will have to answer to they court for her actions.

The courts are very slow.  My next hearing is in about three-four weeks.  That is the initial status conference where there will be a direct court order requiring her share custody.  That is the same as the current order, but we are seeking to amend the order to give me full parenting responsibility.  There are other things she has done that will factor into this move as well.  This behavior is enough to allow our requests that she be allowed supervised visits only.  The courts will be very suspicious of this request however as they do not like to separate children.  I do expect to get full custody of her passport (which is currently on me 24/7) as well as other accommodations to account for her behavior at this conference.

At this point she has continued her behavior she has always exhibited.  She is pushing the envelope and ignoring consequences.  She will not stop this until someone absolutely hammers her and she faces real consequences.  Even if she returned my daughter right now I would still have to follow this path.  Without it she would continue to ignore the rights of anyone but herself.

[ThePhoenixStillRises]

1 hour ago, Blind-Sided said:

As you know, I went through a divorce where my exW tried to use abuse to get her way.  She tried to get a restraining order on me, and went to the local abuse center to get help claiming I was abusing her and our kids. And like our OP... there was no proof. (no police reports, no reports from the kid's schools, or Dr's reports) In none of this... did I think she would hurt the children, so I didn't try for a full custody order.  But it made it an uphill battle for me, and I realized how crazy someone can become.

And not all forms of abuse have reports associated with them...you are only referring to what would stem from physical abuse.  And, if there were signs of it, your ex wife was probably too afraid of you and what you would do to her to take the kids to a doctor to have anything looked at or documented.  

Domestic violence centers and the people that work there are very good at discerning between the truth and someone lying to them for their own personal gain.  There is a whole process involved.  It's not all determined on the first visit.  

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, viatori patuit said:

She will not stop this until someone absolutely hammers her and she faces real consequences.

And you wonder why she fled? Her children are none of your business, only your daughter.  She will do just fine. Even if you try to exnihilate her with legal paperwork, etc. The real victim is your daughter because you are using her to spite and hurt your estranged wife.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Wiseman2

[viatori patuit]

I do not wonder why she left.  Where do yo see that?  

I am protecting my daughter from someone who is currently hurting her.  If she was to follow the law I would not need to take this course of action.  I really do not understand why you feel the need to try and make this about me.  It simply isn't.  She is the one who kidnapped my daughter.  She is the one who engaged in interstate flight.  She is the one who will be found in contempt of court.  How on earth am I involved in any of this?  

I will take a very hard line against my wife because I have too.  She does not listen to the courts.  She does not pay attention to the support order for her current children and I will simply not tolerate her doing that with my daughter.  There is no measure to hard and how fast I will bring the fight to her.  She chose this path, not me.  If it were up to me we would have cooperated and I would have been happy with 50/50.  

I am happy to discuss what I did wrong here, but I don't see anything.  She is the aggressor here and she is the one escalating.   

[LynneVicious]

On 9/30/2021 at 5:41 PM, viatori patuit said:

That was the crazy button.  That evening I got a text where it appears my wife put make up on my child and accused me of hitting her.  Her exact words were "was that a slap or a punch?"   Of course I did not respond.  Then she said she would report it.  That did not happen either.  What did happen is that she kidnapped my daughter and is attempting to run to California

Op,

im not sure why some posters are being so hard on you.

-You attempted counseling, but she didn’t like the counselor and was to find another, which she didn’t do. 

-you’ve lived in silence with her for 6 months now. 

-she refused to acknowledge the separation order and your attorneys communication. She refuses communication with you period  

-Shes trying to set your up as a have with the make up on your child and text. By the way, please save that text and give it to your attorney. 

- she admitted to perjury during her last divorce to get what she wanted. 

-she took your child to an undisclosed location, did nothing tell you where your child is, and refuses communication. 

This is 2021. Fathers have rights now. I think you should go meet with your attorney right now and follow his or her advice. You should also make a police report about her taking the child and not disclosing where she is and not answering communications. 

I think you have every right to see your daughter and not have her withheld from you. See if your attorney can get an emergency order barring her from leaving  again. 

It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders. I wish you the best. 

[Pumpernickel]

@LynneViciousI agree - and while there are always at least 2 sides to every story, it seems to me that the W of @viatori patuit is doing a lot of things that will harm her in the divorce process & custody decision pretty soon. She acts quite short-sighted.  
 

Unlike her previous husband who might have let her get away with half-illegal stuff, her current H probably won’t. And she’s probably not prepared for that. 
I don’t understand why OP is being accused of using his daughter as a pawn. Isn’t that what the mother is doing right now??

[viatori patuit]

Thanks.  I think the same thing - she is absolutely using my daughter as leverage.

The fact is she stands to lose a large sum of money.  Her cushy life style is going to be greatly downgraded by this action.  The child support will be based on one, not  three children.  She is responsible for the other two and it is between her and her ex husband to work through that.  I will pay a very small amount as she makes a great deal of money (we are off the charts for child support calculation).  If I achieve full parental rights she receives nothing in the way of support.  She won't get maintenance (she makes too much).  She has to give up her mercedes and she will not get the family home.  At this point the status quo order keeps her out of the house.  Remember, I did not file for divorce, just to separate assets (like a pre nup would have).  This is the response I got when she found out she was not going to have any right to the money I make.

As sad as it is, this likely the motivator for her behavior.  Up to this point every single time she left to go somewhere with her kids she would leave my daughter with me.  She always said "she couldn't handle three kids alone."   She is simply mad because she believes the world owes her a living.  

The fact is that should I let up at all she will take any slack and run with it.  She has already done that with her ex husband.  I won't allow that.  I know my daughter is better off with me in her life.  I also believe strongly that I will make better decisions for my daughter than my wife would.  

[LynneVicious]

7 minutes ago, Pumpernickel said:

@LynneViciousI agree - and while there are always at least 2 sides to every story, it seems to me that the W of @viatori patuit is doing a lot of things that will harm her in the divorce process & custody decision pretty soon. She acts quite short-sighted.  
 

Unlike her previous husband who might have let her get away with half-illegal stuff, her current H probably won’t. And she’s probably not prepared for that. 
I don’t understand why OP is being accused of using his daughter as a pawn. Isn’t that what the mother is doing right now??

Agreed. Op, get legal counsel now and do what’s right for your child. Wish you the best   

[IrinaM]

which is it--does she make a lot of money or does she need your money?

Quote

I will pay a very small amount as she makes a great deal of money (we are off the charts for child support calculation).  If I achieve full parental rights she receives nothing in the way of support.  She won't get maintenance (she makes too much).

Honestly your reference to "the crazy button" makes me feel you are at the least emotionally abusive.

Can you answer this question: did you in some way strike your daughter, either slap, punch, push, anything like that? is there a story there you aren't disclosing?

[viatori patuit]

I can promise you that no, I have not and do not hit people.  I am non-violent.  My worst offense is being short with people.  I have said multiple times there is no abuse.  None.  

Why is it that people here are so intent on blaming me?  I don't think all the questions posed are ridiculous, but many are accusatory and quite frankly offensive after the third or fourth time.

 

[viatori patuit]

The court decided that the contempt motion was not enough.  they denied that and instead ordered a hearing where she and my daughter have to show up.  Its called a "show cause" hearing.  At that hearing she has to explain why she is withholding parenting time.  Apparently this is very rare and considered super serious. 

She did not file the emergency motion.  There is simply is no evidence of abuse and she would have had to pay for the entire motion had they found against her (both of our court costs).  She is still withholding my parenting time on that theory however.  She is also withholding it and demanding I submit a parenting plan.  Neither is valid, but apparently they are going to withhold my daughter until the court forces the issue.

I kind of wish she had filed the emergency motion.  If she did, I would have at least gotten supervised visitation with my daughter for the two weeks it takes to set up the emergency hearing.  Right now I don't get to see her at all.  It is really hard not to be vindictive about this, but I am seriously trying to just focus on my daughter. 

[viatori patuit]

It has been a few weeks and she has not moved.  I still have not seen my daughter.   She did however finally file the emergency motion.  Strangely, the court has not accepted it yet.  It has been 48 hours and they are silent.  Usually they accept the motion within an hour and schedule a hearing within 14 days.  It is extremely unusual for them to do this with a motion.

I have a hearing on monday where I will see my daughter for sure as she also must be there.  I am so excited! 

[Pumpernickel]

Ugh, sorry to hear. I hope your daughter is OK, as she’s still little and must be very confused, and I can only imagine how strange it will feel (for you, but especially for her) to see you on Monday after such a long time & under these awkward circumstances. These things can do a number on young kids. I’m so sorry you guys are going through this. 

[Just a Guy]

Hi V. P. What is the latest update on your situation? Have the Courts ruled in your favour regarding 50/50 custody or any visitation rights? How is it that your wife is able to get away with flouting all norms of decency without the Courts reacting in any way? 

On another note, I would like to ask you how long were you single before you married your current wife? Also, if as others say, you were married twice before, why did you opt for a third marriage knowing all the pitfalls that could befall you especially with the experience that you had with bad marriages? As the saying goes" Once bitten twice shy"! Also, did you do due diligence in the selection of your current wife? She seems to be a colourful personality from all that you've written about her and I'm sure with your experience being married to women who hurt you grievously in previous relationships, your 'Picker' should have been honed to a fine sharpness as far as sniffing out the right woman for yourself is concerned! I say this because the fact is that if two of your previous marriages failed and your current one is on the rocks, maybe its time for you to do some serious introspection to determine if, in fact, anything is wrong with you yourself, such that you end up picking the wrong kind of woman as a wife and then paying a heavy price for it! These are questions that you need to address seriously if you are not to be caught in a vicious cycle of bad relationships in the future. Warm regards.