Trans / race?

[IrinaM]

I don't see any difference between "trans-race" and "transgender." I don't agree with the logic behind either.

I don't think someone can just "opt-out" of being their race or their sex.

 

[elaine567]

5 hours ago, Mrin said:

They said, "as a transgendered person, I can tell you that I NEVER felt right as my birth gender. You name it. 3 years old. 5 years. 16 years old. Innately I knew I was not a girl. I don't think a 3 year old or 5 year old Korean kid innately knows they are not Korean but instead Indian."

Transgender people do not live in a vacuum, they live in a world full of gendered people, so have plenty role models of both sexes.
A three year old Korean kid is unlikely to  be surrounded by Indians, but if they were they may indeed want to be seen as an Indian and feel Indian not Korean, not every kid of course but some maybe... 

[Wiseman2]

On 10/27/2021 at 8:56 AM, Prudence V said:

 a tweet from someone claiming that, if transgender is a thing, then so should trans race be, 

It's been a thing forever. It was called "passing". It wasn't about "I feel like I'm..."  however it was about assuming the identity of whatever culture, ethnicity, etc they felt safer in or felt more advancement in.

Likewise, "third gender" has been around forever as well. While not with hormonal/surgical reassignment, these individuals simply lived as he or she or they.

Twitter is funny that way. It's all recycled concepts dressed up as newsworthy simply because someone has opinions about it.

But that's life. People will always enjoy discussing things.

[Taramere]

13 hours ago, Woggle said:

I don't know how to feel about somebody who is honest about being one race but says they identify as another one. There are some people who grew up or are raised around another culture and just adopt some of the traits without even noticing it. We are products of our environment probably even more so than our ethnicity. 

The issue with Rachel Dolezal is that she is a white woman who pretended to be black and made her herself some authority on black issues when it was all a lie. 

A couple of weeks ago, a British singer was in trouble for "blackfishing" (put in quotes because I hadn't heard of it before).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/58886305

In her case, I can see why the accusations would spark up...but I saw other people accused of the same thing for styles that to my mind have never been exclusively black.  Beyonce, for instance, has often been very obviously influenced by Latina style in the past.  Does the prominence of Beyonce mean that a Latina woman can be accused of blackfishing if people think she's mimicking Beyonce's more Latina styles?  When people are in a really tribal frame of mind, they can often get insular in terms of not knowing or being particularly interested in other cultures.  Maybe gatekeeping as "theirs" certain things that have long enjoyed widespread popularity. 

I think the natural consequence of tribalism and group identity politics is that people increasingly want to find a tribe that they can feel like part of.  Being an ally or supporter isn't, in itself, much of a tribal identity for young people.  Some might decide they're happy enough with it, especially if they have other things that give them a strong sense of self...but the more powerful and influential a group is seen as being, the more resentful non members will become if that group continues to gatekeep styles, words and genres that it either invented or appropriated and made its own.

Perhaps ultimately, the word "trans" comes to mean little more than claiming the right to say, do and wear things that are culturally associated with a specific group or race of people.  Maybe ultimately trans could become redundant as a word - and people will make the life, style and behavioural choices that they want (within reasonable legal boundaries ) without having to adopt a specific label for themselves first.  At the moment, it seems like a lot of people have boundless energy for tribal identities and shaming other people for cultural appropriation, being inauthentic etc.  But maybe rather than a sign of worse things to come, it's just the noisy death rattle of the tribalism that's become so rife in recent years.  I wouldn't be averse to that.

[Woggle]

I don't know about that singer but if she has actually been trying to look black by putting on dark makeup then yes I can see the issue. I do think some people go too far with it almost to the point of advocating for separatism but in this case it applies. You look at somebody like Eminem who I am not a fan of musically but he participates in a black artform without trying to look or be black. There are grumblings here and there but for the most part people leave him alone. 

Even before transgender was a widely known term there has been plenty of gender bending in music. David Bowie used to wear makeup and dresses and if you watched MTV in the eighties many times the men wore more makeup than the women. 

I think that tribalism will unfortunately get worse. It has always been there and has been getting worse in the past few years. With everything going on right now people tend to turn against each other instead of toward each other.

[Timshel]

People will be treated as they appear. What does that mean? It means that a man or woman who people visually interpret as such will be responded to accordingly. Skin color will be the same. 

If people want to identify outside of their gender or ethnicity and expect the general public to concede in their day to day lives, they must look the part. Most people, most of the time only glance at strangers. Family, colleagues and friends are just that and have attachment/acceptance. To add, many transgendered people have lost their lives playing this game.

"Passing" is an offensive word; it implies that because a society interprets a person of a more 'favorable' ethnicity; the person is actively complicit. There is too much to unpack there Prudence, as a Sociologist, you understand the implications.

 

[Timshel]

5 hours ago, Woggle said:

I think that tribalism will unfortunately get worse. It has always been there and has been getting worse in the past few years. With everything going on right now people tend to turn against each other instead of toward each other.

This is only true if you and every person else thinks it is.

[basil67]

9 minutes ago, Timshel said:

"Passing" is an offensive word; it implies that because a society interprets a person of a more 'favorable' ethnicity; the person is actively complicit. 

Which person and what action is being complicit?  

I know that transgender is off topic in this thread, however the only time I hear the word 'passing' is when it's spoken by a couple of trans gender friends. They use it to describe the relief when they "pass" because it means they aren't feeling threatened.   Why is their description of being seen as how they want to be seen offensive?

[Timshel]

15 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Which person and what action is being complicit?  

I know that transgender is off topic in this thread, however the only time I hear the word 'passing' is when it's spoken by a couple of trans gender friends. They use it to describe the relief when they "pass" because it means they aren't feeling threatened.   Why is their description of being seen as how they want to be seen offensive?

First. Passing is usually referred to or was in regard to ethnicity, not gender.

Are you asking me, or the audience as to why they would be seen as offensive?

[Wiseman2]

3 minutes ago, Timshel said:

First. Passing is usually referred to or was in regard to ethnicity, not gender.

Here is a more accurate description:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_(sociology)

[Timshel]

Lol. Let's go with wikipedia.

Basil, I don't know any person in my friend group, in my teenager's friend group, work environment, home, or shopping that has ever ostracized/shunned/made fun of/acted an a** or in any way, shape or form not respected a trans person. My daughter has a few friends that identify as they.

I made myself clear in the first post.

[basil67]

4 minutes ago, Timshel said:

Lol. Let's go with wikipedia.

Basil, I don't know any person in my friend group, in my teenager's friend group, work environment, home, or shopping that has ever ostracized/shunned/made fun of/acted an a** or in any way, shape or form not respected a trans person. My daughter has a few friends that identify as they.

I made myself clear in the first post.

Same for me and the people I hang out with.  They are, without exception, allies.  But every trans person I know has experienced being ostracized/shunned/made fun of etc, so I don't understand why their use of the word passing is offensive.  Especially (as per Wiki) when it's about self preservation/protection.

So going back to the statement "Passing" is an offensive word; it implies that because a society interprets a person of a more 'favorable' ethnicity; the person is actively complicit" I don't understand why it's offensive, who its offensive to, who is complicit and what they are complicit in. 

[Taramere]

29 minutes ago, basil67 said:

 

So going back to the statement "Passing" is an offensive word; it implies that because a society interprets a person of a more 'favorable' ethnicity; the person is actively complicit" I don't understand why it's offensive, who its offensive to, who is complicit and what they are complicit in. 

There's some commentary in this article about the term "passing" (specifically with regard to trans people)

https://www.advocate.com/transgender/2016/1/19/10-words-transgender-people-want-you-know-not-say

The impression I get is that while it could be used in an offensive context, it's more of a tricky area to negotiate.  Obviously there are the situations where a person may feel they need to pass in order to stay safe, or because they worry about being laughed at or not fitting in.  But for some the sensation of passing might just be a very positive sensation along the lines "I feel like I'm really looking good today".   It seems to me like a potentially very important issue, but also a very personal one rather than necessarily offensive.  The sort of thing that, if the person themselves wanted to bring it up and talk about it then fine...but it's not a topic I'd broach with a trans person.

[Mrin]

So... To chime in a bit more. I continued my conversation on this topic with my transgendered spawn this morning. 

They explained that one of the key tenants of transgender thought is what I call "the big mistake". That their assigned gender (aka birth gender) was a mistake and that they are actually a different gender. There's some good science actually to back this up. 

Ok so how does this relate to trans race? Well, if we go with the big mistake, it is predicated that there was a possibility (in utero) that we all could have been born a different gender. But we don't have the same thing with race. There was never a chance for me to be born Asian or Indian.

Again, I think that's where my aforemented "innate-ness" aspect comes from.