It's complicated - insight needed

[EleanorRigby2000]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

Clarifying: Wife has never been interested in kids with Him, her kids are adults with their own kids.
Nobody in this situation is a surrogate, IVF was done for fertility preservation purposes only, no diagnosis.

Did you freeze your eggs or do IVF?  Sounds more like you froze your eggs or froze embryos instead of IVF.  Does wife know y'all are planning on having a baby?  If not, she may not want a divorce and that could delay the divorce.  

Edited October 28, 2021 by EleanorRigby2000

[TamBuktu]

41 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Ah...
So she lets him go play with you, whilst she entertains another gentleman or lady maybe?.
It is quite a nice arrangement for them both but I guess she won't be too happy with your potential kids in the mix.
He may like playing away with you but he may still need his "Mama" around, hence the stalling, but saying that MM are notorious for stalling and keeping women waiting whilst they have the advantage of a secure marriage and an OW...
 

Sounds funny put this way.

MM and wife has led separate lives the same way years before the affair started per common friends.

Mama issues definitely. Security... not so sure, way more secure with AP than Wife in any aspect (job, health etc)

[TamBuktu]

38 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

What insight are you hoping for? You seem to know the situation quite well. His wife is tolerant of his affairs. However you wish to get married, he won't divorce.

The complicated IVF situation is odd in that he waived  his rights. 

Does that mean if you go ahead unilaterally with it he is not legally obligated to pay child support?

 It's also unclear why you don't have unprotected sex in order to conceive if you are in your 30s?

It seems if you wish to have a child with his sperm the child will be out-of-wedlock and he may not have to pay child support.

 Just curious why you are distancing yourself from this with cryptic information and third person narration?

 

No desire to conceive unmarried. With frozen embryo transfer a woman can buy years. 

Having child out of wedlock would be plan C not B and even then - definitely through IVF for a numbers of reasons. And not any time soon (say 5+ years pass - then maybe)

[TamBuktu]

37 minutes ago, EleanorRigby2000 said:

Did you freeze your eggs or do IVF?  Sounds more like you froze your eggs or froze embryos instead of IVF.  Does wife know y'all are planning on having a baby?  If not, she may not want a divorce and that could delay the divorce.  

Freezing embryos and IVF is the same process - nowadays frozen embryo transfer is preferred anyway. There are backup frozen eggs too.

Wife has no idea of course. Big concern is that legally might delay things if push comes to shove.

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Wife has no idea of course.

I guess she will not be happy... 
 

[Starswillshine]

This sounds like some soap opera stuff. 

I never knew anyone in their 30s already freezing eggs/embryos as most people are in their 30s these days just starting a family. 

This MM agreed to donate his sperm for donations. But not to bring a father. 

He won't divorce. 

I'm unsure what advice are you seeking? 

[TamBuktu]

3 hours ago, S2B said:

Did his wife also give her approval for his sperm to be used for you to conceive? if not yet, ask her directly.

No and will never know. Another reason not to transfer until the situation is resolved

[TamBuktu]

3 hours ago, elaine567 said:

I guess she will not be happy... 
 

Wife would never know... People generally don't share with their exes how their children are conceived

[TamBuktu]

2 hours ago, Starswillshine said:

This sounds like some soap opera stuff. 

I never knew anyone in their 30s already freezing eggs/embryos as most people are in their 30s these days just starting a family. 

This MM agreed to donate his sperm for donations. But not to bring a father. 

He won't divorce. 

I'm unsure what advice are you seeking? 

Innacurate. Egg freezing is not recommended after 35 and whether to preserve/not preserve fertility depends on expected age for last child not first..

 

Getting back on the advice part:

Put an ultimatum or not?

Expect change or not?

Involve wife or not?

The couple is happy as they can be day to day, it's all about future.

Anyone dealt with the same and how it developed?

[EleanorRigby2000]

6 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Getting back on the advice part:

Put an ultimatum or not?

Expect change or not?

Involve wife or not?

The couple is happy as they can be day to day, it's all about future.

Anyone dealt with the same and how it developed?

You can give him an ultimatum, but try to prepare yourself for him to end things with you if you do.  People don't often respond well to ultimatums.  
 

Don't expect change. If he's been able to be with you and still go home to his wife, he has a situation that works for him.  He may not see any reason to change it.  
 

Sounds like the wife is involved in so much already, perhaps if you do involve her it will help her decide whether or not to divorce the guy.  
 

When you say the couple do you mean the married couple, or you and the MM?

Edited October 29, 2021 by EleanorRigby2000

[TamBuktu]

4 minutes ago, EleanorRigby2000 said:

You can give him an ultimatum, but try to prepare yourself for him to end things with you if you do.  People don't often respond well to ultimatums.  
 

Don't expect change. If he's been able to be with you and still go home to his wife, he has a situation that works for him.  He may not see any reason to change it.  
 

Sounds like the wife is involved in so much already, perhaps if you do involve her it will help her decide whether or not to divorce the guy.  
 

When you say the couple do you mean the married couple, or you and the MM?

Thank you!!

Done in the past (mild) - always got from MM "I'll leave only if you (AP) really want me to; don;t want to lose you"

Yes. That. Only reasons are Love and Fear. Maybe kids. Strong cultural push too - feeling "inferior". So pushing out of comfort zone is the way? 

Yes. Fear here is backfiring if wife decides against it. If she initiates it- everyone will be happier.

Meant affair couple.

[RebeccaR]

5 hours ago, elaine567 said:

but in your 30s you cannot really afford to waste much time as the success rate of IVF reduces with every year that passes. 

It’s really the age at which she produced the embryos that matters, and that is done and dusted

[BaileyB]

43 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Getting back on the advice part:

Life is too short and no man is worth this. Seriously. 

You have fallen in love and you want to start a family with a man who is married to another woman and has given no indication that he intends to file for divorce. He is likely quite happy to continue as you have been - living a fantasy relationship with you while keeping his home and marital assets intact. I’m sorry to be blunt, but if he wanted to be with you and have a family with you, he would move Heaven and Earth to make that happen. The fact that he has not, in the three years that you have been “together” speaks volumes…

My advice would be to end the relationship and tell him to give you a call when his divorce papers are signed. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

5 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Life is too short and no man is worth this. Seriously. 

You have fallen in love and you want to start a family with a man who is married to another woman and has given no indication that he intends to file for divorce. He is likely quite happy to continue as you have been - living a fantasy relationship with you while keeping his home and marital assets intact. I’m sorry to be blunt, but if he wanted to be with you and have a family with you, he would move Heaven and Earth to make that happen. The fact that he has not, in the three years that you have been “together” speaks volumes…

My advice would be to end the relationship and tell him to give you a call when his divorce papers are signed. 

When fantasy relationship involves caring for AP mother, remodeling kitchen, care taking after surgery and all the daily mundane things... it's not a fantasy.

Rest is true but too late to reverse.

[BaileyB]

21 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

When fantasy relationship involves caring for AP mother, remodeling kitchen, care taking after surgery and all the daily mundane things... it's not a fantasy.

Rest is true but too late to reverse.

It’s also not a marriage or a family - two things you seem to want very much. 

And it’s never too late to reverse. It may in fact be the only thing to move him if he is ever planning to act. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by BaileyB

[ExpatInItaly]

8 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

On the consent papers he waived rights

This is not a man who has any genuine intention of leaving his wife to raise a family with you. It seems he is fine donating sperm, but does not want to take the parent role. 

You need to read the writing on the wall there, OP. It was a mistake to let yourself believe you two have a future and bank your fertility on him. 

[Noproblem]

why don't you talk normally, if you are that ashamed to say 

hI I love a married man  and want to have kids with him, then you have no place having an affair with a married man in the first place.

Obviously your guy married the wife for money and advancement in life.. 15 years older than him, now he wanted to feel young, so he chose you and decided to waste your time.

Time to wake up, gather the pieces and get another guy who is not married or a user!

You are in love with a user!

And the irony

He has mama issues because he is with older women (15 yrs), but you don't have daddy issues since he is older than you by 15 years too!

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Noproblem

[Noproblem]

4 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

When fantasy relationship involves caring for AP mother, remodeling kitchen, care taking after surgery and all the daily mundane things... it's not a fantasy.

Rest is true but too late to reverse.

no it is fantasy!

Of course he'll do this, he is using you for sex, so he'll pay for these stuff as he should!

 

[IrinaM]

I think you  should give him an ultimatum. I think the only reason you haven't is because it will be a rude awakening.

[Wiseman2]

9 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Having child out of wedlock would be plan C not B and even then - definitely through IVF for a numbers of reasons. 

What about plan A. Get rid of married men and start dating honest decent single men and have a child naturally with someone willing to commit to you?

Right now you're more like a surrogate who may carry a child for him because his wife is too old for that.

Having a frozen embryo together is not a commitment. 

[elaine567]

6 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

If she initiates it- everyone will be happier.

Yes but that is wishful thinking.
She could have left, or turfed him out when you appeared on the scene but she didn't.
She stipulates she wants him home every night, so she is still connected.
Trouble is, even if she agrees, he may then think "OMG my marriage is really over, I want her back."  
As he has "mama issues" he may not want to live without his "mama"... and then there is the cultural stigma to consider.
If your goal was to have kids and a family, you made a very poor choice of a man here, sorry to say.

People who end up with two lovers, tend to think neither is "enough", they need both to get their needs met.
They don't want to choose one and lose the other, so they keep both in play.
He spends time with you and goes home to his wife at night, it obviously suits him well.
He is in no rush to change things so he can be with you and only you unfortunately.

Time to seriously re-assess this situation.
Sunk cost fallacy -  The sunk cost fallacy occurs when we are unable to cut our losses due to the past money or time we have spent on an activity.
Maybe it is time to think of cutting your losses.

[Starswillshine]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

People who end up with two lovers, tend to think neither is "enough", they need both to get their needs met.
They don't want to choose one and lose the other, so they keep both in play.

This is what I am thinking. I think OP may be deluding herself that he would be happier. 

If he would actually be happier, he would just divorce. 

Nothing complicated here, imo. 

[TamBuktu]

Summary and details of last responses:

   Ultimatum or leaving  - for the leaving itself - tried and failed, as a pressure tactic - that's not love and there is love here

   But marriage and family are the desire, yes. Love on first place.

   Consent papers: that is done in any embryo creating procedure that's not a donor procedure any 2 people need to sign them. But let's put this aside, too much legal and medical explanations for a forum. Plus mix eggs/embryos ensures nobody banks on anybody

   "why don't you talk normally, if you are that ashamed to say " - because abstraction from a case is needed for clarity. We can agree to disagree on this

   Mommy/daddy issues - both yes, no irony here. Worse on the Man side for undisclosed past information here

   Obviously your guy married the wife for money and advancement in life.. >>> quite the opposite actually.. The one with least money here is Wife
   15 years older than him, now he wanted to feel young, >>>> Very not true.. He chose AP out of comfort zone of preference for older

    Using for sex: Nah, women in the situation are with the higher libido
    Using as surrogate: no carrying is happening without divorce so can't be true

   

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

Yes but that is wishful thinking.
She could have left, or turfed him out when you appeared on the scene but she didn't.
She stipulates she wants him home every night, so she is still connected.
Trouble is, even if she agrees, he may then think "OMG my marriage is really over, I want her back."  
As he has "mama issues" he may not want to live without his "mama"... and then there is the cultural stigma to consider.
If your goal was to have kids and a family, you made a very poor choice of a man here, sorry to say.

People who end up with two lovers, tend to think neither is "enough", they need both to get their needs met.
They don't want to choose one and lose the other, so they keep both in play.
He spends time with you and goes home to his wife at night, it obviously suits him well.
He is in no rush to change things so he can be with you and only you unfortunately.

Time to seriously re-assess this situation.
Sunk cost fallacy -  The sunk cost fallacy occurs when we are unable to cut our losses due to the past money or time we have spent on an activity.
Maybe it is time to think of cutting your losses.

Thank you for the thoughts.

Wife is aware but not aware of the extent, depth, family involvement etc. She also has significant financial benefit of staying and more in that regard. Plus freedom of straying herself
Doubt he's going to run after if she agrees... Can't pull himself to be the "bad guy leaving" same thing happened in past relationships - relief when they left

"If your goal was to have kids and a family, you made a very poor choice of a man here, sorry to say." this, yet love is love....

"People who end up with two lovers, tend to think neither is "enough", they need both to get their needs met." this too, what might move the scale one way or another?

"Maybe it is time to think of cutting your losses." One final push maybe first? And again, AP+MM are very very happy abstracting from his "situation"..

[TamBuktu]

32 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

This is what I am thinking. I think OP may be deluding herself that he would be happier. 

If he would actually be happier, he would just divorce. 

Nothing complicated here, imo. 

2 forces - Love and Fear make it complicated.

Talking it through here really helps.

A Man with very poor decision making power .. And that's why married on first place: recreating something from past never fully onboard with wife.
Never initiated breakup, job change, major decision- fear of judgement, fear of cultural stigmas, fear of family (although in the case in point, family is supportive)

Just walk... Is a good advice on paper. But ha, it's complicated when lives are so interdependent. And happy, and loving.