It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

32 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

This is what I am thinking. I think OP may be deluding herself that he would be happier. 

If he would actually be happier, he would just divorce. 

Nothing complicated here, imo. 

2 forces - Love and Fear make it complicated.

Talking it through here really helps.

A Man with very poor decision making power .. And that's why married on first place: recreating something from past never fully onboard with wife.
Never initiated breakup, job change, major decision- fear of judgement, fear of cultural stigmas, fear of family (although in the case in point, family is supportive)

Just walk... Is a good advice on paper. But ha, it's complicated when lives are so interdependent. And happy, and loving.

[BaileyB]

37 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Can't pull himself to be the "bad guy leaving" same thing happened in past relationships - relief when they left

I tend to think that anybody who is foolish enough to get themselves involved with a married man who is waiting indefinitely for his wife to file for divorce because he is so conflict avoidant that he doesn’t want to be the “bad guy” pretty much deserves whatever they get. Adult men make decisions and take responsibility for their own lives - if he is not happy in his marriage and wants to have a family with you OP, he can make the decision to do that. People decide every single day that they want something else for their lives and they file for divorce - and their spouse deals with it. Sure, it’s complicated by familial and cultural influences but that just means it’s all the more unlikely that he will divorce and you will get what you want. If he is not making the decision to divorce it’s because this little arrangement you have going here works for him… he apparently doesn’t see the need to change it. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by BaileyB

[elaine567]

She is in her 60s and gains financial benefit from the marriage, so I doubt unless she feels abused or she is moving on to bigger and better things, she will want to change the status quo.
There is also the  risk of her health breaking down, so ditching a functional marriage with the support it could provide, would not be in her best interests at her time of life. 

Thing is AP and MM are often very happy in their own bubble, but it may not translate to a happy ever after in reality.
Some men although they may love and care for their OW, may not actually see her as "marriage material", and that may be the reason he is stalling.
Some men hypocritically may not want to get into a proper legit  relationship with a woman who is happy to help him cheat, he can see that as a flaw...
A man unhappy in his marriage may not want to dive straight into another...

Men in affairs are not often seeking a replacement wife, they are in it for extra, extra love, extra sex, extra affection, extra validation. extra fun. extra excitement... etc. etc
But a new wife? Um...no.
They future fake to keep the OW happy and tell her what she wants to hear.
Yes your guy may be weak and a bit of a coward for not making plans to leave, or he may actually be quite happy with the way things are and is actively keeping you at arm's length with his sob stories...

[TamBuktu]

6 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I tend to think that anybody who is foolish enough to get themselves involved with a married man who is waiting indefinitely for his wife to file for divorce because he is so conflict avoidant that he doesn’t want to be the “bad guy” pretty much deserves whatever they get. Adult men make decisions and take responsibility for their own lives - if he is not happy in his marriage and wants to have a family with you OP, he can make the decision to do that. People decide every single day that they want something else for their lives and they file for divorce - and their spouse deals with it. Sure, it’s complicated by familial and cultural influences but that just means it’s all the more unlikely that he will divorce and you will get what you want. If he is not making the decision to divorce it’s because this little arrangement you have going here works for him… he apparently doesn’t see the need to change it. 

And that's true.

It's one side of the story. Besides being indecisive and conflict avoidant.. he's also caring, gentle, kind, smart, loving.. Indecisiveness is just a part of the package. Not a character assasination.

But yes - this - " this little arrangement you have going here works for him…" Taking a note on that.

[TamBuktu]

8 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

She is in her 60s and gains financial benefit from the marriage, so I doubt unless she feels abused or she is moving on to bigger and better things, she will want to change the status quo.
There is also the  risk of her health breaking down, so ditching a functional marriage with the support it could provide, would not be in her best interests at her time of life. 

Thing is AP and MM are often very happy in their own bubble, but it may not translate to a happy ever after in reality.
Some men although they may love and care for their OW, may not actually see her as "marriage material", and that may be the reason he is stalling.
Some men hypocritically may not want to get into a proper legit  relationship with a woman who is happy to help him cheat, he can see that as a flaw...
A man unhappy in his marriage may not want to dive straight into another...

Men in affairs are not often seeking a replacement wife, they are in it for extra, extra love, extra sex, extra affection, extra validation. extra fun. extra excitement... etc. etc
But a new wife? Um...no.
They future fake to keep the OW happy and tell her what she wants to hear.
Yes your guy may be weak and a bit of a coward for not making plans to leave, or he may actually be quite happy with the way things are and is actively keeping you at arm's length with his sob stories...

Yes -- above summarizes her situation perfectly. She has many reasons to stay.

"Thing is AP and MM are often very happy in their own bubble, but it may not translate to a happy ever after in reality." - all that happens in reality has happened already - family involvement, friends involvement, health scares, deaths and births. It's not a sexual safe heaven bubble one might think of

Note on this "may not actually see her as "marriage material", and that may be the reason he is stalling." - how to check?

DETAIL that wasn't explained well: there are not sob stories. No complains ever, not once. All known about her is by herself/others. MM never mentions wife in a conversation. The closest is like "my little complication in life". Marriage with her has always been something completely unspoken. Ring disappeared 2 years ago... AP and MM are referred as wife and husband or just partners in most social situations and he is fine with it... Creepy maybe

[elaine567]

31 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

"Thing is AP and MM are often very happy in their own bubble, but it may not translate to a happy ever after in reality." - all that happens in reality has happened already - family involvement, friends involvement, health scares, deaths and births. It's not a sexual safe heaven bubble one might think of

Ok, not a bubble for 2,  but still a bubble, he is still going home to his wife every night...

It may seem like it is legit in your social/family circle, but he has to make the final step to make you actually legit, otherwise he is just a guy wandering about and showing off his younger OW. 

[BaileyB]

58 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

It's one side of the story. Besides being indecisive and conflict avoidant.. he's also caring, gentle, kind, smart, loving.. Indecisiveness is just a part of the package. Not a character assasination.

To be fair, for most women, a MM that is so indecisive and conflict avoidant that he would carry on a three year affair with his wife’s knowledge and not divorce would be enough to make them throw this fish back into the sea…

He’s not that conflict avoidant if he is having an affair in the open with his wife’s knowledge and approval. Most MM are not so bold. It’s just - this guy hasn’t filed for divorce and you have to ask yourself why -

Elaine is right, it may feel legit but if he doesn’t take the final step and divorce then it is never going to be truly legit and you are never going to be satisfied (certainly not if marriage and children is your goal). The one and only chance you have to prompt him to divorce would be to leave - if he is happy with the arrangement now, you need to make him unhappy and see what he decides to do…

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, BaileyB said:

To be fair, for most women, a MM that is so indecisive and conflict avoidant that he would carry on a three year affair with his wife’s knowledge and not divorce would be enough to make them throw this fish back into the sea…

Meaning - while being indecisive/conflict avoidant is only one trait, when you are three years in and he still goes home to sleep with his wife every night that is probably a deal breaker for most women. He may have other wonderful characteristics, but the fact that he is married and apparently so indecisive/conflict avoidant that he is unwilling to file for divorce is a fact that should not be dismissed if your goal in life is to have a legit, committed relationship with a man with whom you can marry and raise a family together. 

I mean, it’s not like you can say he is a caring, gentle, kind, smart, and loving man who forgets to pick up after himself and ignores you on the weekend when his favourite sports team is playing. This is - he is married to another woman and will not file for divorce. It’s not like the fact that he’s loving and kind to you outweighs the fact that he’s so conflict avoidant that he would carry on another relationship because he lacks the strength of his convictions to file for divorce. If anything, the opposite should be true.

Ignore that deal breaker at your own peril. Unless, you are really satisfied with the relationship you have now and plan to raise your children in this twisted arrangement while you wait for his wife to die. 
 

Edited October 29, 2021 by BaileyB

[stillafool]

11 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Innacurate. Egg freezing is not recommended after 35 and whether to preserve/not preserve fertility depends on expected age for last child not first..

 

Getting back on the advice part:

Put an ultimatum or not?

Expect change or not?

Involve wife or not?

The couple is happy as they can be day to day, it's all about future.

Anyone dealt with the same and how it developed?

I think your choice should be to involve his wife by asking her permission for his sperm since she is aware of your affair.   He is not going to leave her because he obviously loves her.  She's 15 years older and he's the one with the money supporting her.  She may be older but was probably very beautiful when he married her.  If he didn't love her he would be with you.  She probably no longer desires him sexually and that is where you fit in.  Do they have adult children and grandkids?  If so, he doesn't need nor probably want more kids.  But since she has no problem with him having an affair just ask her for his sperm.  Hell, ask her if you can have him and see what she says.

Edited October 29, 2021 by stillafool

[elaine567]

16 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Do they have adult children and grandkids?  If so, he doesn't need nor probably want more kids

She has adult children and grand-children, he has no children of his own.

 

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

Ok, not a bubble for 2,  but still a bubble, he is still going home to his wife every night...

It may seem like it is legit in your social/family circle, but he has to make the final step to make you actually legit, otherwise he is just a guy wandering about and showing off his younger OW. 

Wife is way more of a show piece, verry quirky AP here:) He doesn't consider youth a plus, he has chosen only older women in his past love life besides AP.

Yes, it's bothersome he's not cutting ties. It's clear what keeps Wife in. But what keeps MM in?? Love? Habit? Fear of change in the verge of entering his 50s? Social stigma?

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, BaileyB said:

To be fair, for most women, a MM that is so indecisive and conflict avoidant that he would carry on a three year affair with his wife’s knowledge and not divorce would be enough to make them throw this fish back into the sea…

He’s not that conflict avoidant if he is having an affair in the open with his wife’s knowledge and approval. Most MM are not so bold. It’s just - this guy hasn’t filed for divorce and you have to ask yourself why 

 

Agreed with making him uncomfortable. Just don't agree to put ultimatums. But uncomfortable by being truthful about feelings - yes. 

Want to clear up I don't think their interactions are like "I'm going tonight to my AP". He's just not home for dinner, ever, no questions asked.

Wife knows AP because of projects together, there is no flashing " we had sex today" haha. THere is some respect in a situation of disrespect so to speak.

"this guy hasn’t filed for divorce and you have to ask yourself why " - right, what is it? Habit? Love? Fear? Immaturity? All of the above?

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, stillafool said:

I think your choice should be to involve his wife by asking her permission for his sperm since she is aware of your affair.   He is not going to leave her because he obviously loves her.  She's 15 years older and he's the one with the money supporting her.  She may be older but was probably very beautiful when he married her.  If he didn't love her he would be with you.  She probably no longer desires him sexually and that is where you fit in.  Do they have adult children and grandkids?  If so, he doesn't need nor probably want more kids.  But since she has no problem with him having an affair just ask her for his sperm.  Hell, ask her if you can have him and see what she says.

She was divorcee with adult kids in her 50s, if you need context. Beautiful yes. She's beautiful now, age is just a number. He was in some kind of a hole and she provided comfort. Love? Maybe, companion love.

Nothing in MM/AP relationship is sex driven. Sex is good but not the focus of it.

Sperm question: won't use this as it might make a case against him in future divorce. Some things are best kept private. No child is getting born now anyway. Otherwise ton of money&time wouldn't be spend for IVF but old-fahsioned method haha.

[TamBuktu]

Any thoughts on:

1) How to make MM uncomfortable/push decision making? 
2) Involve wife closely or not? Maybe eye to eye conversation but how to be unbiased?
3) AP obviously has most to lose-- but then the appropriate "insurance" measures has been taken, walking in that with eyes wide open

Any other details needed?

Somebody experienced similar relationshiP?

[BaileyB]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

He's just not home for dinner, ever, no questions asked.

Wife knows AP because of projects together, there is no flashing " we had sex today" haha. THere is some respect in a situation of disrespect so to speak.

Now, does she really know or are you making the assumption that she knows? 

While I agree that it is suspicious when he is consistently not home for dinner, it is another thing entirely to be aware of the fact that your husband is in (as you would describe it) a relationship with another woman. 

You are perhaps taking the fact that you have met his mother, he has cared for you when you are ill, etc… to mean that she is aware of the affair and accepting - 

Is he not essentially lying by omission? And, if she is aware of the affair, can you say that she is accepting of the situation if she does not have full and complete knowledge of the extent of the affair? I mean - how can she give her consent if she is not informed - does not have all the if donation? 

I have to wonder if you are not making a lot of assumptions here - the fact that he is not home for dinner must mean that she knows he is with another woman and the fact that he has asked you to help care for his mother must mean that he wants a legit, committed relationship. Both may or may not be true but until he discloses everything to his wife and he files for a divorce, I would be careful about making any assumptions…

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

AP and MM are referred as wife and husband or just partners in most social situations

Since you froze ova in addition to his/your embryos you're not stuck with him. You're free to find a decent honest single man who won't lie and cheat and you can  conceive in vivo or in vitro and have a real family with a man who loves you and is willing to commit to you.

[BaileyB]

12 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

How to make MM uncomfortable/push decision making? 

End all contact and tell him to contact you when he is divorced. It’s not an ultimatum - you are just choosing to extradite yourself from a dead end relationship that has no potential to provide for you the throngs you want for your life - marriage and family. 

Goodness knows, there are other men in this world who come with none of the complications this man brings to your life.

Quote

Involve wife closely or not? Maybe eye to eye conversation but how to be unbiased?

The only way that you can have a legit relationship with this man is if he chooses to divorce his wife (whether he chooses to tell her the full truth or not) or whether he tells her the whole story and she gives her informed consent (ie. she accepts the fact that she is in an open marriage and her husband has a relationship with another woman).

Either way - it doesn’t involve you. It’s his wife, his marriage, he should be the person to have the discussion with his wife. And given the fact that he hasn’t had been completely honest with her (he is just assuming she knows about your relationship given the fact that he doesn’t come home for dinner in much the same conflict avoidant way that he is waiting for her to file for divorce), I wouldn’t hold my breath if I was you… Not to mention the fact that you shouldn’t really believe him if/when he tells you that he has spoken with her and she has consented when you know for a fact that this man has no problem lying and living a double life.

Quote

AP obviously has most to lose-- but then the appropriate "insurance" measures has been taken, walking in that with eyes wide open

What “insurance measures” do you think you can take - you have much to lose and absolutely no control/influence over the outcome. Whether you acknowledge it or not, you are on very shaky ground here - no ability to control the future direction of your own life unless you decide to extradite yourself from this relationship and a chose something different for yourself. Where is the “insurance” or “reassurance” to be found in that?

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

7 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Since you froze ova in addition to his/your embryos you're not stuck with him. You're free to find a decent honest single man who won't lie and cheat and you can  conceive in vivo or in vitro and have a real family with a man who loves you and is willing to commit to you.

Yes - exactly the point this was shared. It's not the bio-clock, it's not for sex and it's not material.. 

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, BaileyB said:

What “insurance measures” do you think you can take - you have much to lose and absolutely no control/influence over the outcome. Whether you acknowledge it or not, you are on very shaky ground here - no ability to control the future direction of your own life unless you decide to extradite yourself from this relationship and a chose something different for yourself. Where is the “insurance” or “reassurance” to be found in that?

 

Referred to cryopreserving fertility, financial independence, and social independence.

But of course Marriage and Family are desired outcomes. 

Bailey - you make good points, will respond to in other mesage

[Wiseman2]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

It's not the bio-clock

Ok, then dump this married liar and find a decent man you can have a family with.

[TamBuktu]

15 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Now, does she really know or are you making the assumption that she knows? 

While I agree that it is suspicious when he is consistently not home for dinner, it is another thing entirely to be aware of the fact that your husband is in (as you would describe it) a relationship with another woman. 

You are perhaps taking the fact that you have met his mother, he has cared for you when you are ill, etc… to mean that she is aware of the affair and accepting - 

Is he not essentially lying by omission? And, if she is aware of the affair, can you say that she is accepting of the situation if she does not have full and complete knowledge of the extent of the affair? I mean - how can she give her consent if she is not informed - does not have all the if donation? 

I have to wonder if you are not making a lot of assumptions here - the fact that he is not home for dinner must mean that she knows he is with another woman and the fact that he has asked you to help care for his mother must mean that he wants a legit, committed relationship. Both may or may not be true but until he discloses everything to his wife and he files for a divorce, I would be careful about making any assumptions…

Yes - that's very possibly true.

All started with spending full weekends together (except the sleep time). 

He never stated "oh I told here we are in a relationship". She knows AP name, knows he's elsewhere every evening 

But he was before affair too - just used different reasons - work, friends, to never go home before bedtime - so no change for them in that sense

'Is he not essentially lying by omission?' that. with both AP and wife unwritten "policy" is no questions asked
God knows if she's accepting or she just prefers "don't tell don't ask approach".. Yes, some assumptions here

[TamBuktu]

6 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Ok, then dump this married liar and find a decent man you can have a family with.

Maybe it's coming.. maybe not. True love is very hard to find.

[BaileyB]

10 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Ok, then dump this married liar and find a decent man you can have a family with.

It’s like wanting to earn a good income so that you can buy a home and raise a family… and then taking a job that you love as an intern. While one may hope that their work and dedication will be recognized and rewarded with a higher paying promotion… After years of working for peanuts as an intern and never getting promoted - the fact that one “loves” the job begins to matter less. At some point, one must begin to accept that if the goal is financial independence, the ability to buy a home and have children - perhaps it’s time to move on and find a different job that will bring the opportunity to achieve one’s life’s goals. While it’s wonderful to be able to work at a job that one loves, if it’s keeping that individual from achieving the things that one wants and values most in their life - then it’s not the right decision to stay. There are other jobs, with any luck one may actually find an equally fulfilling albeit different job, that will provide the opportunity to fulfill one’s life dream… If they have the courage to go and find it!

Edited October 29, 2021 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

6 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

'Is he not essentially lying by omission?' that. with both AP and wife unwritten "policy" is no questions asked

Nice of you both to play along. You have both been kind enough to play your parts without giving him any stress or conflict. As I said above, he has things as he wants right now… I can imagine that life is pretty good for him - 

[BaileyB]

46 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

It’s like wanting to earn a good income so that you can buy a home and raise a family… and then taking a job that you love as an intern. While one may hope that their work and dedication will be recognized and rewarded with a higher paying promotion… After years of working for peanuts as an intern and never getting promoted - the fact that one “loves” the job begins to matter less. At some point, one must begin to accept that if the goal is financial independence, the ability to buy a home and have children - perhaps it’s time to move on and find a different job that will bring the opportunity to achieve one’s life’s goals. While it’s wonderful to be able to work at a job that one loves, if it’s keeping that individual from achieving the things that one wants and values most in their life - then it’s not the right decision to stay. There are other jobs, with any luck one may actually find an equally fulfilling albeit different job, that will provide the opportunity to fulfill one’s life dream… If they have the courage to go and find it!

The moral of the story being, this person has taken a job that is not consistent with their life goals (in much the same way that forming a relationship with a married man is not consistent with your life goals - if your life goal is to have a legit relationship, marry, and have a family together). This individual is hoping, as you are hoping, that with time - the job and the relationship will grow into what they want such that they will be able to have the job they love AND achieve their life goals. But, as you have discovered, it doesn’t always work this way… At a certain point, no matter how much you may love the job or the man, if they are not allowing you to achieve your most important dreams - that hard truth needs to be accepted so that you can go in search of what it is that you want.

In much the same way that a woman can love a man but if he doesn’t want to have children and her dream has always been to have a baby - they are simply not compatible. They may love each other dearly but they have different goals in life. And, hard as it may be, if having a baby is a dream that can not be denied, she must follow her heart and make the decision that will provide her the opportunity to achieve that goal. 

What good is it to stay in a job or with a man that you love if you get nothing that you truly value or desire for your life. Is that love? Is it love if he keeps you from seeking that which will allow you live your dream and bring you the joy that can be found from having a husband and a family?  

You are still trying to wait it out. And in this discussion about offering ultimatums and telling his wife, you are trying to manipulate the situation such that you can get what you want.

I would suggest, the decision to stay or go depends on whether you love this man more than you love yourself. Because, if your life dream is a marriage and a family, you made a poor choice in this married man. The path is pretty clear - it’s time to cut your losses and go in search of your dream…

Edited October 29, 2021 by BaileyB