It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

Why don’t you just ask him your questions instead of asking us? I’m frankly confused. He doesn’t admit to being married? He wants you to bear his bio kid?

His wife and family have met you. Is it possible they are setting you up as a surrogate uterus for themselves? That’s more likely this ending happily ever after for you. I hope I’m wrong about the surrogacy idea but stranger things have happened.

I knew about it - our relationship didn't start until years of knowing each other, he choses not to talk about it with me and i feel better this way

he doesn't talk aboiut it with friends and family too- i witnessed on many occasions

if they are setting me up for being a surrogate i'd need to take a good laugh but being a mother of his child without marriage... it's not ideal but if it happens view might change.. and yet taking every precaution not to happen, i'm not one of these that use reproductive coersion

[TamBuktu]

4 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I wonder this on every one of these OW threads where the couple is “in love”. If you’re in love just ask him directly!

Ask what?

[TamBuktu]

Ah if you meant ask what keeps him in, likely is something very painful or very viscious that i'm not sure i can mentally handle in one on one.. But that's a great point, asking directly is best of course

[RebeccaR]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

Ask what?

Oh, come on. Ask him when he will be getting divorced so you can bear his son.

[RebeccaR]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

Ah if you meant ask what keeps him in, likely is something very painful or very viscious that i'm not sure i can mentally handle in one on one.. But that's a great point, asking directly is best of course

Painful for who? You or him?

[RebeccaR]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Ah if you meant ask what keeps him in, likely is something very painful or very viscious that i'm not sure i can mentally handle in one on one.. But that's a great point, asking directly is best of course

If you two can’t handle the difficult conversations, how will you handle supporting him through divorce, remarriage, and late-life parenthood?

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

If you two can’t handle the difficult conversations, how will you handle supporting him through divorce, remarriage, and late-life parenthood?

Hitting the nail on the head here can't deny... I don't know how, I feel so useless in that sense. I've never been able to lead difficult conversations with anyone anyway. I'm people pleaser and avoidant. And can't help it, really. Doesn't bother me with others because i dont care about them I do care about him and he probably has no idea how much i do because of my avoidance and turning everything sweet, joking and light........

[RebeccaR]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

Hitting the nail on the head here can't deny... I don't know how, I feel so useless in that sense. I've never been able to lead difficult conversations with anyone anyway. I'm people pleaser and avoidant. And can't help it, really. Doesn't bother me with others because i dont care about them I do care about him and he probably has no idea how much i do because of my avoidance and turning everything sweet, joking and light........

You avoid it with him because you already know the answer and you don’t want to hear it from him. Listen, do you need to know WHY he stays in his marriage, or is it enough for you just to know he’s staying and not leaving? You need to make peace with the fact you might never get the real reason.

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

I have never applied pressure in fact the D word has never even been mentioned directly.

He started talking about kids first.

Is the “D” word mentioned here “delusional?”

That’s the only word I could think to describe a married man who is talking about having a child with his affair partner without talking about or making any plans to divorce.

36 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

the word "marriage" frankly has never been mentioned before this thread... In real life she gets you-know-who or the-little-complication title and that's only if i ask otherwise it's business as usual ...Sounds cold and I guess it is on their end

So, you are in a relationship with a married man who has told you that he wants to have children, which leads you to dream of marriage and a family. BUT - you have never spoken openly with him about “marriage” and you don’t talk with him about his plans for divorce. He never brings up his wife - you speak about her only when you ask and he dismissively calls her “you know who” or “the little complication.” Reminds me of another thread in which the MM called his wife “the other person who lives here.” Am I reading this correctly? If you are in a serious relationship with the man, as you claim to be because he spends time with you and he has taken you to family gatherings, etc, why have you not been able to discuss the IMPORTANT issues - like, planning a future together, what will that look like? Does he plan to divorce? What kinds of plans has he made - logistically, what is his timeline? Where will he live? How will they divide assets and how will that impact your plans for a life together? Does he want to marry again? How does he feel about having children in his 50’s? 

He apparently has a don’t ask, don’t tell policy and you have gone along with this because you are conflict avoidant and reluctant to have the hard conversation with the man. No doubt, you are afraid to hear the answer. How do you think you are going to be able to work together to build an authentic and committed life together if you never discuss the things that really matter? The things on which a serious and committed relationship is built? 

Edited October 30, 2021 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

6 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I've never been able to lead difficult conversations with anyone anyway. I'm people pleaser and avoidant.

 Clearly. It’s not hard to understand how you’ve found yourself in an affair with an unavailable man. 

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Is the “D” word mentioned here “delusional?”

That’s the only word I could think to describe. Married man who is talking about having kid with his affair partner. 

So, you are in a relationship with a married man who has told you that he wants to have children, which leads you to dream of marriage and a family. BUT - you have never spoken openly with him about “marriage” and you don’t talk with him about his plans for divorce. He never brings up his wife - you speak about her only when you ask and he dismissively calls her “you know who” or “the little complication.” Reminds me of another thread in which the MM called his wife “the other person who lives here.” Am I reading this correctly? If you are in a serious relationship with the man, as you claim to be because he spends time with you and he has taken you to family gatherings, etc, why have you not been able to discuss the IMPORTANT issues - like, planning a future together, what will that look like? Does he plan to divorce? What kinds of plans has he made - logistically, what is his timeline? Where will he live? How will they divide assets and how will that impact your plans for a life together? Does he want to marry again? How does he feel about having children in his 50’s? 

He apparently has a don’t ask, don’t tell policy. Wo, how do you think you are going to be able to work together to build an authentic and committed life together if you never discuss the thing that matter? 

No, "D" is for divorce and no need to be sarcastic

And no, no need to discuss assets etc because even if he loses all but the pants on his butt it won;t be a problem, he'll live with me. And no, I have absolutely no need to ask him about his kind of plans as we'll plan as we go and I fully truly and completely trust his judgement and know he will do his best and beyond to make me, and our kids happy.

Laughed about the "person who lives there" expression it has been used too

I do want to know his motives though if nothing else to understand his personality better and if nothing this thread (thanks Rebecca thanks Elaine) was useful to empower me to ask the questions today directly to him, let see how this goes 

[elaine567]

5 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I do care about him and he probably has no idea how much i do because of my avoidance and turning everything sweet, joking and light........

 That is maybe why he is not actually taking you that seriously.
You maybe fit the OW role rather too well, he doesn't need to step up as you ask so little of him.
 

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

 That is maybe why he is not actually taking you that seriously.
You maybe fit the OW role rather too well, he doesn't need to step up as you ask so little of him.
 

Thank you Elaine, literally that's the problem and it took 7 pages for me to realize it

My avoidance is biting me in the butt as we speak going to talk to him right now or at least try

[BaileyB]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

And no, no need to discuss assets etc because even if he loses all but the pants on his butt it won;t be a problem, he'll live with me. And no, I have absolutely no need to ask him about his kind of plans as we'll plan as we go and I fully truly and completely trust his judgement and know he will do his best and beyond to make me, and our kids happy.

Magical thinking. That’s all I will say…

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

You know I tried the other way- I was engaged to someone desperate for white picket fence and kids pronto....never been as miserable in my life, not because of these desires of him, but regardless of them. Some counseling and months later the realization was we were together for the common goals and thats about it. I praise Lord daily that we didn't marry...

Perhaps you weren't in love with your fiance and that is why you were miserable.  Good for you that you broke it off.  I'm sure he's with someone now who loves him and wants that life.  Common goals alone don't make a marriage.  What does the Lord say about being involved with a married man?

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

The language is amusing but this Man is the type to take care of kids of exes from other men and to think he’ll leave his flesh and blood sounds as likely as getting hit by asteroid

Oh no doubt he'll pay their way.  If he has the funds why not if he's had or having sex with these women; yet he's having an affair with you - childless, footloose and fancy free who is available to jump when he wants them to.

[elaine567]

44 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

...going to talk to him right now or at least try

I hope it goes well.

[Starswillshine]

Ok. You have said you both have met each others' families. But did you meet them as his partner? Are you known as his partner to his friends and family? 

You have gotten frozen embryos; however, he signed over his rights. It sounds like he has no legal obligation to any children conceived by this transfer if it were to happen. Could he just have been placating you? At this moment, you are not old enough to worry about it, and his age is irrelevant.  Was this done just as a in case? 

It does not sound like his wife knows. You must understand that he is a man engaged in an affair. Which means he is not honest. You have said it yourself that he is conflict avoidant. Do understand you are not immune to him doing this to you as well. 

He may be referring to his wife as such so that it does not anger you. Most OW do not like hearing great and positive things about the wife. He is conflict avoidant... so he doesn't want to rock the boat with you either. 

Most MM are in affairs for bonus. He is not looking to replace his wife. This has worked out really well for him for years, he will continue to stay as is. 

[EleanorRigby2000]

3 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

I have never applied pressure in fact the D word has never even been mentioned directly.

He started talking about kids first.

something is not adding up no doubt, the whole point of posting is to brainstorm what it it

So he's never actually mentioned divorce?  If that's the case, then you may not even need to ask him what's up and instead just leave. It doesn't sound like he's planning on leaving his wife.  If you go through with getting pregnant, he could tell his wife he donated sperm and that was all you were to him (a sperm recipient for an embryo). He will have an easier time making excuses and brushing you off this way than he would have if you were to conceive naturally. This man doesn't love you the you should and could be loved.  If he did, he wouldn't still be married with no plans to divorce.  He would possibly want to have a child with you naturally.  
 

Please, for your own mental health, tell this guy you are ending things and really end them.  If he says he will divorce to be with you, tell him to call you when he can show you the divorce papers have been signed.  

Edited October 30, 2021 by EleanorRigby2000

[spiderowl]

7 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

I have never applied pressure in fact the D word has never even been mentioned directly.

He started talking about kids first.

something is not adding up no doubt, the whole point of posting is to brainstorm what it it

It seems to me that MM is happy to have a child with you, perhaps because he has never had children but also because he knows he has no further commitment.

It sounds like you are saying you will not go ahead with having a child unless he divorces his wife, in which case he knows there is little risk of you having the child. From his point of view, you won’t go ahead unless there is a divorce so he is happy to string you along.

Maybe he wants a child but he also wants his wife. How can he achieve this? Answer: let other woman have the child and he will stay with his wife. His genes will survive, though OW will be taking on the responsibility.

Honestly, I don’t think he is going to ‘volunteer’ to divorce his wife. She is probably oblivious to what he is up to with you, or is turning a blind eye as long as she thinks it’s a dalliance and nothing serious. 

The only way the status quo is likely to change is if you force the issue. You are afraid of doing that in case he says no or dumps you. He has a nice situation now with two women making him feel wanted. Would you change that if you were him?

What would happen, I wonder, if you ‘changed your mind’ about wanting children and instead just wanted to be married to him. Would he go for that? He would if he loved you. 

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by spiderowl

[TamBuktu]

5 hours ago, spiderowl said:

It seems to me that MM is happy to have a child with you, perhaps because he has never had children but also because he knows he has no further commitment.

It sounds like you are saying you will not go ahead with having a child unless he divorces his wife, in which case he knows there is little risk of you having the child. From his point of view, you won’t go ahead unless there is a divorce so he is happy to string you along.

Maybe he wants a child but he also wants his wife. How can he achieve this? Answer: let other woman have the child and he will stay with his wife. His genes will survive, though OW will be taking on the responsibility.

Honestly, I don’t think he is going to ‘volunteer’ to divorce his wife. She is probably oblivious to what he is up to with you, or is turning a blind eye as long as she thinks it’s a dalliance and nothing serious. 

The only way the status quo is likely to change is if you force the issue. You are afraid of doing that in case he says no or dumps you. He has a nice situation now with two women making him feel wanted. Would you change that if you were him?

What would happen, I wonder, if you ‘changed your mind’ about wanting children and instead just wanted to be married to him. Would he go for that? He would if he loved you. 

 

Yes, i wouldn’t change it either unless I’m fully aware how much harm this is causing. I’m starting to think he isn’t or is just turning a blind eye (just like wife) because everyone seem happy.

Reason no to force is.. Oppositional defiance? It happens a lot when forcing a decision no? At this point the fear of him leaving is minimal as said he never left anyone and he meant it.. Fear of saying no- yes, big time. More like not saying no but not saying yes either- he does that a lot- avoid topics 

Marriage with no kids- I don’t see the push as he already thinks he’s performing all husband would do with me anyway.. in his set of ideas what a husband does- that’s reducing obviously but put it that way- quality time, intimacy, house responsibilities like repairs, taking care of parents.. I never made it clear why I want marriage outside of kids context.. sounds stupid but I don’t know how to motivate?

[TamBuktu]

10 hours ago, EleanorRigby2000 said:

So he's never actually mentioned divorce?  If that's the case, then you may not even need to ask him what's up and instead just leave. It doesn't sound like he's planning on leaving his wife.  If you go through with getting pregnant, he could tell his wife he donated sperm and that was all you were to him (a sperm recipient for an embryo). He will have an easier time making excuses and brushing you off this way than he would have if you were to conceive naturally. This man doesn't love you the you should and could be loved.  If he did, he wouldn't still be married with no plans to divorce.  He would possibly want to have a child with you naturally.  
 

Please, for your own mental health, tell this guy you are ending things and really end them.  If he says he will divorce to be with you, tell him to call you when he can show you the divorce papers have been signed.  

Never mentioned the word divorce I mean. Not that he never implied. Same way he never said “I’m married” or used the word wife

Respectfully let’s not get the discussion to the ending it route. Fully aware that’s the proper way and also fully aware at this point I can’t do it. If we separated even i think still the need of his company will be too strong not to interact

[TamBuktu]

12 hours ago, stillafool said:

Oh no doubt he'll pay their way.  If he has the funds why not if he's had or having sex with these women; yet he's having an affair with you - childless, footloose and fancy free who is available to jump when he wants them to.

Truly believe he wasn’t taking it seriously for a long time in the end of the day it all started like innocent friendship 

but yeah, interesting choice if he wasn’t looking for commitment..

[TamBuktu]

11 hours ago, Starswillshine said:

Ok. You have said you both have met each others' families. But did you meet them as his partner? Are you known as his partner to his friends and family? 

You have gotten frozen embryos; however, he signed over his rights. It sounds like he has no legal obligation to any children conceived by this transfer if it were to happen. Could he just have been placating you? At this moment, you are not old enough to worry about it, and his age is irrelevant.  Was this done just as a in case? 

It does not sound like his wife knows. You must understand that he is a man engaged in an affair. Which means he is not honest. You have said it yourself that he is conflict avoidant. Do understand you are not immune to him doing this to you as well. 

He may be referring to his wife as such so that it does not anger you. Most OW do not like hearing great and positive things about the wife. He is conflict avoidant... so he doesn't want to rock the boat with you either. 

Most MM are in affairs for bonus. He is not looking to replace his wife. This has worked out really well for him for years, he will continue to stay as is. 

Probably they don’t I’m not 100% on that. The last time I was there his sister was very cryptic saying “we like her, you know that” in front of me.. My family considers him partner 100%. Some know, some don’t about his situation.. 

I know he’s not honest in some aspects. Maybe that’s why I’m not fully sold he’ll tell me openly his reasons.. For context he has told me eyebrow raising things like how he couldn’t tell boss about leaving a job for weeks while already working elsewhere things like this..

referring to me as partner or even wife is usually when someone else says it and he just goes with the flow.. I don’t get angered that easily haha 

Just thought of something in the conflict avoidant realm -he hates conflict so much I’ve made few unreasonable demands in the past with a bit of in my book unacceptable behavior (rude from my end).. instead of pulling back he acted like he has to comply. He responds so well to negative treatment but good Lord I can’t treat him like a naughty child. Feels so wrong and disrespectful ti me

 

[TamBuktu]

12 hours ago, elaine567 said:

I hope it goes well.

I knew years can’t be reversed by one conversation but we did have a conversation in the right direction I mean me trying to be less avoidant.. I think it will take a long time I’m committing to shift from light, sweet and humorous to more serious. At first he reacted like he thinks I’m mad about something as I wasn’t my bubbly self then we had heart to heart about marriages how our families did things and what we like

this was only first try not direct still he didn’t pull back and seemed engaged.. Praying I can keep consistent and shift the conversation, it’s me not him, I’m so set in my childish happy place it’s like breaking a habit