It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

30 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

Maybe they have a prenup? If he won’t even acknowledge his marriage, how would you even know?

Yeah and in the end it's on them to deal with it, I was just asking vla in general sense

[Wiseman2]

59 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I don't know. Does it depend on whether the divorce is contested or not? All his properties has been acquired prior to marriage , one still has mortgage- can she ask for 1/2 on that?

It doesn't matter, does it? He's not mentioning divorce. .

[TamBuktu]

21 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

It doesn't matter, does it? He's not mentioning divorce. .

He did, I posted earlier, so sorry i don't want to be more specific  Blurb is below and it was iterated quite a lot already. But there was absolutely no opposition of if more on the how 

"Now, I had a bit of an emotional conversation with him and he wasn't dismissive nor avoidant. He expressed fears from the BW family if they found out. He expressed insecurities and also certain things that I would not share here but to cut the long story short, we can summarize it to "crime and punishment" case. Whether his fear is valid or not, I could not know. IS it even okay to ask further questions or shall I get my breaks on for a little bit (or longer)?"
 

[BaileyB]

14 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

It doesn't matter, does it? He's not mentioning divorce. .

He did.
 

To his wife? Has he spoken with his wife about divorce?

And what part of the discussion you shared represents his actual intention to file for divorce and his plans post divorce? Kindly, you haven’t written anything that demonstrates he has an actual intention to divorce or that he is making concrete plans to divorce.

Unless they have a legal agreement that specifies that any assets acquired prior to their marriage will remain separate in the event of divorce, marital assets will be divided by two. If marriage is about love - divorce is about money. Laws may vary depending on where you live, but generally he will forfeit half the value of their home, their savings, their pensions, their furnishings, etc… It’s one of the reasons why so many older married men prefer to stay married and keep another woman on the side - it’s in their financial best interest to do so… They have too much to lose in the event of divorce. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by BaileyB

[basil67]

I'm confused.  You have huge issues with being an unmarried mother.  But you have no issues with being inseminated by a man who's married to someone else trying, nor with wanting to see him break his marriage.

Given that your actions as an OW aren't (and can't be) ethical, I will assume it's not ethics which stops you wanting to be an unmarried mother.  So what is the actual concern about raising his child with him being an unoffical parent on the side?  

[BaileyB]

2 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I'm confused.  You have huge issues with being an unmarried mother.  But you have no issues with being inseminated by a man who's married to someone else trying, nor with wanting to see him break his marriage.

Given that your actions as an OW aren't (and can't be) ethical, I will assume it's not ethics which stops you wanting to be an unmarried mother.  So what is the actual concern about raising his child with him being an unoffical parent on the side?  

Because it doesn’t fit the fantasy that she has created for herself - the fantasy that ends with a proposal, a wedding, and raising a child as a family unit. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

@basil67

i do not want to raise children in unhealthy household that’s all. [ ] 

also logistics- I want back to back pregnancies and mine will be high risk anyway for medical reasons so I need a 2nd adult that I’m preferably married to

and medically I have taken certain precautions that I believe most mid/late 30s women hasn’t.. fortunate to be extremely well versed in this field (obviously not talking about relationship field ;))

Edited November 1, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
removed reference to hidden content, civility

[TamBuktu]

2 hours ago, BaileyB said:

To his wife? Has he spoken with his wife about divorce?

And what part of the discussion you shared represents his actual intention to file for divorce and his plans post divorce? Kindly, you haven’t written anything that demonstrates he has an actual intention to divorce or that he is making concrete plans to divorce.

Unless they have a legal agreement that specifies that any assets acquired prior to their marriage will remain separate in the event of divorce, marital assets will be divided by two. If marriage is about love - divorce is about money. Laws may vary depending on where you live, but generally he will forfeit half the value of their home, their savings, their pensions, their furnishings, etc… It’s one of the reasons why so many older married men prefer to stay married and keep another woman on the side - it’s in their financial best interest to do so… They have too much to lose in the event of divorce. 

How would you know what they have been talking about behind closed doors?

I don’t and frankly it’s none of my business until things get more concrete. That’s not overnight job anyway, let’ s just leave it at that

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[RebeccaR]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

i do not want to raise children in unhealthy household that’s all. 

also logistics- I want back to back pregnancies and mine will be high risk anyway for medical reasons so I need a 2nd adult that I’m preferably married to

and medically I have taken certain precautions that I believe most mid/late 30s women hasn’t.. fortunate to be extremely well versed in this field (obviously not talking about relationship field ;))

I think you missed the point. If you want a family unit with children, look for a man who can actually provide that.

Edited November 1, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
removed response to hidden content

[BaileyB]

28 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

How would you know what they have been talking about behind closed doors?

I don’t and frankly it’s none of my business until things get more concrete.

That’s my point. You said “he did” and I asked - did he mention the word divorce with you, or with his wife? There is a BIG difference between the two discussions.

No - neither of us knows what he has talked about with his wife but you better believe that if I’m putting my life on hold waiting for him to divorce and commit to a legitimate relationship with me… I’m not going to quietly sit and twiddle my thumbs for years waiting for his wife to decide to file for divorce. I’m not saying that their marriage/divorce is any of your business but YOUR relationship with the man, his plans for the future, his decision to file for divorce and bring this together are most definitely your business… Your tendency to avoid conflict - to not ask questions and trust blindly - may well cause you to waste your youth and your prime child bearing years. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by BaileyB

[basil67]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

How would you know what they have been talking about behind closed doors?

I don’t and frankly it’s none of my business until things get more concrete. That’s not overnight job anyway, let’ s just leave it at that

Actually, leaving is an overnight job.  I've done it.  I made up my mind and was gone in the time it takes to pack a couple of overnight bags.  

Yes, the actual divorce takes longer - but if one really wants to leave, all the have to do is pack their bags and walk out the door.  If he truly wants out, he would have gone already.

Edited November 1, 2021 by basil67

[elaine567]

26 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Your tendency to avoid conflict - to not ask questions and trust blindly - may well cause you to waste your youth and your prime child bearing years. 

Not only prime child bearing but your prime child raising years will tick by waiting for this guy.
He is already almost 50. What are you really thinking here?

Since you brought this matter up, he has not immediately went "Yes you are right I  need to get this show on the road as soon as possible, for you and my potential kids."
No he is now worried about how it will look to his wife's family and no doubt to his wife herself...I am still sceptical she knows anything 

You seem like you are a nice woman with your heart in the right place, but you have chosen a dud here to give your love to, I am sorry to say.
He is not going to want to divorce and you are going to tie yourself in knots hoping he will.
He will "allow" you to carry his kids "out of wedlock", as long as it all remains a secret and no boats are rocked.
He will still be going home to his wife if he can, whilst you are busy with all the child care...
It will kill you slowly...

Sort your head out, start thinking straight and clever, and tell him to go spend his evenings with his wife... untangle yourself from this futile mess.
Please.

[elaine567]

18 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Actually, leaving is an overnight job.  I've done it.  I made up my mind and was gone in the time it takes to pack a couple of overnight bags.  

Yes many women do this, they walk out with little more than the clothes on their backs, some are being abused,  but some are just fed up to the back teeth of their marriage and their husband...

MM it seems to me never do this, they need to be prised out of their marriage with the help of a sharp object usually...

[basil67]

@TamBuktu how much thought have you given to the risks of having your baby fathered by a man of his age.   The risks to yourself and baby increase with the age of the father.   And for the record, I'm not being ageist. I'm older than he is.   

Infants born to older fathers were found to be at higher risk of premature birth, late still birth, low Apgar scores, low birth weight, higher incidence of newborn seizures and birth defects such as congenital heart disease and cleft palate. As they matured, these children were found to have an increased likelihood of childhood cancers, psychiatric and cognitive disorders, and autism.

Bachmann attributes most of these outcomes to a natural decline in testosterone that occurs with aging, as well as sperm degradation and poorer semen quality, but she said that some correlations need more research. "In addition to advancing paternal age being associated with an increased risk of male infertility, there appears to be other adverse changes that may occur to the sperm with aging. For example, just as people lose muscle strength, flexibility and endurance with age, in men, sperm also tend to lose 'fitness' over the life cycle," she said.

Source https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190513081409.htm

[basil67]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

Yes many women do this, they walk out with little more than the clothes on their backs, some are being abused,  but some are just fed up to the back teeth of their marriage and their husband...

MM it seems to me never do this, they need to be prised out of their marriage with the help of a sharp object usually...

If the MM don't leave, it's only because they don't want to go.

[BaileyB]

47 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Since you brought this matter up, he has not immediately went "Yes you are right I  need to get this show on the road as soon as possible, for you and my potential kids."
No he is now worried about how it will look to his wife's family and no doubt to his wife herself...I am still sceptical she knows anything 

Me too. 

I always find it interesting how the OW is so understanding when in truth, the MM is choosing to protect his wife more than the woman he says he loves - the woman, according to the OW, that he plans to “chose” for his life partner. Of all the people you would think he would want to please, it’s not his future ex-wife. 

More likely, he is protecting himself by staying. His reputation, his standing within the family, his finances… when MM drag things out it’s usually because it’s in their best interest to do so.

There are stories on this board and I have seen people in real life meet someone and decide very early in the relationship to be with that person. Sure, it takes time to untangle from the previous relationship, but if he wanted to be with the OW and he was eager to start a family - time, is a wasting…

Edited November 2, 2021 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

@TamBuktu how much thought have you given to the risks of having your baby fathered by a man of his age.   The risks to yourself and baby increase with the age of the father.   And for the record, I'm not being ageist. I'm older than he is.   

Infants born to older fathers were found to be at higher risk of premature birth, late still birth, low Apgar scores, low birth weight, higher incidence of newborn seizures and birth defects such as congenital heart disease and cleft palate. As they matured, these children were found to have an increased likelihood of childhood cancers, psychiatric and cognitive disorders, and autism.

Bachmann attributes most of these outcomes to a natural decline in testosterone that occurs with aging, as well as sperm degradation and poorer semen quality, but she said that some correlations need more research. "In addition to advancing paternal age being associated with an increased risk of male infertility, there appears to be other adverse changes that may occur to the sperm with aging. For example, just as people lose muscle strength, flexibility and endurance with age, in men, sperm also tend to lose 'fitness' over the life cycle," she said.

Source https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190513081409.htm

yeah it is mostly on epigenetic level - which is hard to control, but there are certain tests and compounds that to some extent mitigate the risk and i have taken care of this to the best of my abilities

[TamBuktu]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

Actually, leaving is an overnight job.  I've done it.  I made up my mind and was gone in the time it takes to pack a couple of overnight bags.  

Yes, the actual divorce takes longer - but if one really wants to leave, all the have to do is pack their bags and walk out the door.  If he truly wants out, he would have gone already.

Ok, that's your way - I can personally never do it this way and i'll be not happy but horrified if he did. It would be completely out of character for him

I have broken up with a fiancee before and it took over 3 months after we made it clear to move out, another good chunk of a year to cut ties. No regrets if i had to do it again, i'd do it the same way

[TamBuktu]

I read all of the above - bottomline is he is aware what i want and i fully trust him he'll take the right steps. This thread has been useful for me to put my thoughts together before speaking to him

Maybe we are so happy together because there are no grand statements and no coercion- he told me he's on board and that's all i wanted to know. How is on him. I won't let it go indefinite obviously, but harping daily is also not gonna happen

[EleanorRigby2000]

11 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I read all of the above - bottomline is he is aware what i want and i fully trust him he'll take the right steps. This thread has been useful for me to put my thoughts together before speaking to him

Maybe we are so happy together because there are no grand statements and no coercion- he told me he's on board and that's all i wanted to know. How is on him. I won't let it go indefinite obviously, but harping daily is also not gonna happen

If you haven't already, please ask him if he believes he will ever divorce.  If he says yes, ask when he sees that happening.  I know that's very blunt, and it's not characteristic for conflict avoidant people to ask something so bold.  You owe it to yourself and your future to know if he's wanting to leave in the next 5-10 years (or sooner or later).  Is there a chance he is not wanting to be with you until his wife passes (since she's older)?  If that's the case, you could be waiting 30 more years.  I'm not writing this to be mean.  I'm writing it as something to really consider if you haven't already.  

[basil67]

@TamBuktu Why do you fully trust him to take the right steps?   The fact that he's cheating on his wife hardly shows him as being worthy of trust.

And you're right that harping daily isn't going to achieve anything.   Instead, you need one conversation and for him to tell you his exact plans, including when and how he's going to leave.  If he can't give you a straight answer - or the time when he said he'd leave comes and goes - then it means he's got no plans.  And if he's got no plans, he can't be trusted to take the right steps.

Edited November 2, 2021 by basil67

[TamBuktu]

5 minutes ago, EleanorRigby2000 said:

If you haven't already, please ask him if he believes he will ever divorce.  If he says yes, ask when he sees that happening.  I know that's very blunt, and it's not characteristic for conflict avoidant people to ask something so bold.  You owe it to yourself and your future to know if he's wanting to leave in the next 5-10 years (or sooner or later).  Is there a chance he is not wanting to be with you until his wife passes (since she's older)?  If that's the case, you could be waiting 30 more years.  I'm not writing this to be mean.  I'm writing it as something to really consider if you haven't already.  

No, it is actually a very helpful advice. I'm getting the spin on "does he believe" vs "would he do it (for me)", and I like the phrasing and timeline element. Only "risk" i see is him not responding directly since he's very good at spinning the conversation but say I am too, so I'll get the information out

Just recording few more thoughts: first, it just wasn't time to do it earlier. I myself needed time to decide if he's the person for me. So on top of the (obvious) avoidance there was a natural unavoidable timeline as well

And also.. If there was a minor child (or any child) involved, or significant financial commitment, or even if I saw them being in love together, we'd have never made it so far, if at all. I took me years of observation and casual friendship and seeing he never even refers to her in situations, to cross the line to romantic involvement. It took me seeing how he treats my family in multiple situations to even start thinking of a potential for a future. I'm oversimplifying many details here for brevity but nothing about this was or is in-the-heat-of-the-moment type decision... that i have taken mildly.

[TamBuktu]

11 minutes ago, basil67 said:

@TamBuktu Why do you fully trust him to take the right steps?   The fact that he's cheating on his wife hardly shows him as being worthy of trust.

And you're right that harping daily isn't going to achieve anything.   Instead, you need one conversation and for him to tell you his exact plans, including when and how he's going to leave.  If he can't give you a straight answer - or the time when he said he'd leave comes and goes - then it means he's got no plans.  And if he's got no plans, he can't be trusted to take the right steps.

Because when he says yes to something, he follows on it, always. And yes, he has made a huge mistake and will or is paying the consequences for it, so am i..

Note taken for the one conversation. Certainly very soon.

[RebeccaR]

7 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

or even if I saw them being in love together,

You really don’t know if they are in love. Love takes many forms. Some spouses even enjoy being cheated on. Perhaps they share s3xual fantasies about threesomes. Is this likely? I have no idea and neither do you. He loves her enough to go home every night. Has he ever attempted to spend nights or weekends with you? Something is still enticing him at home.

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, RebeccaR said:

You really don’t know if they are in love. Love takes many forms. Some spouses even enjoy being cheated on. Perhaps they share s3xual fantasies about threesomes. Is this likely? I have no idea and neither do you. He loves her enough to go home every night. Has he ever attempted to spend nights or weekends with you? Something is still enticing him at home.

Yeah you could be right who knows.. Yes we are together on the weekends, we go for trips, go to church, do housework etc. Nothing out of ordinary except he doesn’t sleepover.. I’m afraid the draw home is more out of fear