It's complicated - insight needed

[elaine567]

All-in bonded???
He goes home to his wife every night... 
You are "all-in bonded", he obviously isn't.
The trouble with men who keep it all close to their chest, is that women then fill in the blanks with what they think or hope is going on.

You see this as an easy switch, he will simply start staying overnight with you, but for him this will be huge change to his life, and I doubt he will want to do it.
Even if his wife left tomorrow, he may then not necessarily "choose" you.  You very conveniently filled the need.
Unfortunately, the woman he cheats on his wife with, may not be the woman he wants to spend his  "proper" life with.
Plenty men once free, move on to a different woman, whilst sometimes keeping the OW in place.  Sad but true. 
Assume nothing.      

[TamBuktu]

2 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

All-in bonded but signed away his parental rights?

You have a strange definition of "all-in bonded" and it's very different from his. This man has kept you in your place for a reason, when it comes to the big life commitments. Your admitted lack of relationship experience means you don't see the obvious here, but he isn't as green as you are. 

He knows what he is doing. You don't get it yet, but you will. 

Um I repeated about 100 times you are misunderstanding me grossly on the fertility stuff .. leaving it at that. You want it to be a certain way but it’s not.

This man has moved slowly on every relationship he has ever had, it has nothing to do with the “situation”. It is his personality. But let’s assume nothing ever happens - I’d still claim our years together has been the best in my life.

 

[TamBuktu]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

All-in bonded???
He goes home to his wife every night... 
You are "all-in bonded", he obviously isn't.
The trouble with men who keep it all close to their chest, is that women then fill in the blanks with what they think or hope is going on.

You see this as an easy switch, he will simply start staying overnight with you, but for him this will be huge change to his life, and I doubt he will want to do it.
Even if his wife left tomorrow, he may then not necessarily "choose" you.  You very conveniently filled the need.
Unfortunately, the woman he cheats on his wife with, may not be the woman he wants to spend his  "proper" life with.
Plenty men once free, move on to a different woman, whilst sometimes keeping the OW in place.  Sad but true. 
Assume nothing.      

I trust him in that respect. Call it blind trust if you want.

I’m sure it will be a life change but way less than in “average” case. They share nothing in common- no kids, no assets, no accounts, no time together, and it has been this way years before I showed in the picture. Just take my word for that.

What worries me is he’s a creature of habit and responds very poorly to changes. I’m threading very lightly for that reason- if it takes longer time so be it, as long as the right steps are taken.

Edited November 5, 2021 by TamBuktu

[ExpatInItaly]

50 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

 You want it to be a certain way 

No, I don’t want it to be any particular way. I don’t have a dog in this fight and am not invested in the outcome. 

If anyone wants this to be a certain way, well, that would be you - regarding all aspects of this affair. It’s too bad that an unavailable married man has been the best you’ve ever had, but it does shed light on why you struggle to see the forest for the trees.

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by ExpatInItaly

[stillafool]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Even if his wife left tomorrow, he may then not necessarily "choose" you.  You very conveniently filled the need.
Unfortunately, the woman he cheats on his wife with, may not be the woman he wants to spend his  "proper" life with.
Plenty men once free, move on to a different woman, whilst sometimes keeping the OW in place.  Sad but true. 
Assume nothing.   

You need to listen to this OP and read some of the stories in the OW/OM forum where once the MM leaves he quickly slips away from OW because he now has his freedom to be with whomever he wants, so he starts playing the field.  Often the OW is a reminder of all the bad choices he made that ended his marriage and ends up choosing another woman to make a fresh and decent start.  Most of those who do go with their OW usually end up going back to their wives.  There are very few "happy ever after" situations between cheating MM/OW relationships.

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

No, I don’t want it to be any particular way. I don’t have a dog in this fight and am not invested in the outcome. 

If anyone wants this to be a certain way, well, that would be you - regarding all aspects of this affair. It’s too bad that an unavailable married man has been the best you’ve ever had, but it does shed light on why you struggle to see the forest for the trees.

 

Exactly- these are the facts so be it. Can’t wait for the next developments:)

[Starswillshine]

2 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

No, I don’t want it to be any particular way. I don’t have a dog in this fight and am not invested in the outcome. 

If anyone wants this to be a certain way, well, that would be you - regarding all aspects of this affair. It’s too bad that an unavailable married man has been the best you’ve ever had, but it does shed light on why you struggle to see the forest for the trees.

 

OW here (while in the affair) seem to always believe we, posters, are just here because we are bitter, jealous, and hating. Except all of us here have come from a place of experience and really just want others to avoid the pain we have all been through. Not bitterness, but wanting to help someone else out. I do not understand what would be the point of "hating", being bitter towards, or jealously of a complete stranger who is merely words on a screen to any of us. 

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, stillafool said:

You need to listen to this OP and read some of the stories in the OW/OM forum where once the MM leaves he quickly slips away from OW because he now has his freedom to be with whomever he wants, so he starts playing the field.  Often the OW is a reminder of all the bad choices he made that ended his marriage and ends up choosing another woman to make a fresh and decent start.  Most of those who do go with their OW usually end up going back to their wives.  There are very few "happy ever after" situations between cheating MM/OW relationships.

I personally know 2 from my closer circle where it worked out. I also know many where it didn’t- the stories you are referring to. I feel like these are mostly the stories where the attachment was merely sexual, or the relationship didn’t have legs before decisions were taken. I could be wrong of course.

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, Starswillshine said:

OW here (while in the affair) seem to always believe we, posters, are just here because we are bitter, jealous, and hating. Except all of us here have come from a place of experience and really just want others to avoid the pain we have all been through. Not bitterness, but wanting to help someone else out. I do not understand what would be the point of "hating", being bitter towards, or jealously of a complete stranger who is merely words on a screen to any of us. 

All I believe is that everyone writes from their own perspective. It’s very few to find someone unbiased, I’m biased too of course based on prior life experiences.

Thats why I started the thread as merely factual trying to set the emotions aside but what I learned writing here is that that is impossible when it comes to relationships, especially complicated ones.

[ExpatInItaly]

6 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

OW here (while in the affair) seem to always believe we, posters, are just here because we are bitter, jealous, and hating. Except all of us here have come from a place of experience and really just want others to avoid the pain we have all been through.

Yes, or we’ve seen loved ones go through it. 

I have personally never engaged in an affair, nor have I ever been a BS. So I have no axe to grind there. But i have sure seen people I care about it walk down that path (on both sides of the coin) and wouldn’t wish it on anyone. OP included. 

[stillafool]

On 11/1/2021 at 11:29 PM, TamBuktu said:

but that’s not why he goes home. It’s fear through and through.

This makes absolutely no sense.  Scared of what?  His little wife who controls nothing.  You said yourself he's supporting her,  providing for her and owns everything.  He's the boss and can do what he wants when he wants yet goes home to sleep with her.  He could spend every night with you if he wanted to.  He goes home to her because that is where his heart and home and not with you.  It would be too easy for him to file for divorce and get rid of his wife for you but the thing is he doesn't want to.  You are wasting what little of the years you have left for fertility and children waiting on him but haven't even told him to get a divorce so you guys can be together.  In a little while if he does want kids with an outside woman he may drop you for someone younger and more fertile.  You need to wake up from your nightmare.

[RebeccaR]

39 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

What worries me is he’s a creature of habit and responds very poorly to changes.

Well, yes, this should be your worry. If you force his hand, he will blame you and you will be left with nothing. But most likely he will just stay put with his older, ugly, uncaring wife (sarcasm).

[elaine567]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I’m threading very lightly for that reason- if it takes longer time so be it

Just remember you are already  3 years in, 6 years if you include the pre affair bit.
You could waste a lot of time to no avail here.
 

[BaileyB]

57 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

They share nothing in common- no kids, no assets, no accounts, no time together, and it has been this way years before I showed in the picture.

If this is true, it’s difficult to imagine why he has stayed in his marriage this long - aside from the fact that he does not want to disappoint her family and the threat of possible violence. You continue to say this but it is illogical. These things matter not when he has chosen to stay for all these years…

[elaine567]

52 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

 Can’t wait for the next developments:)

So how have you left it?
Ball in his court or in yours?

[TamBuktu]

33 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

So how have you left it?
Ball in his court or in yours?

I am here, just feel like we are spinning a bit:)

The ball is in his court technically, since we discussed it last weekend BUT I am planning a little refresher conversation either this weekend or the week of thanksgiving, I haven't decided yet what's better but maybe this weekend.

Trying to respond here to the above opinions too:

Bailey, Rebecca, StillAFool - to me it makes complete sense why he hasn't left for all these years. He has been comfortable as is. He's living the married no married life - had someone to talk to, no abuse, no scandals, probably friendship, in the same time he is having complete independence, no ties. For the same reason why people stay in a comfortable low pay low reward job for many years - it is easy to stay, harder to leave.

-Also - they started in a time that he was in a very rough patch - I don't know whether it was a decision taken in time of hurt or there was some gratitude, I don't know. Probably irrelevant.

StillAFool - knowing his personality, no decision is easy for him, especially a decision involving direct confrontation. It is not a feature I like but i love him despite it not because of it.

Expat, Elaine - I know people are saying the harsh things because they have seen stories going sour. I know that very well, I wanted to focus on the unusual aspects of our relationship (insights), otherwise I know very well it is a risk. 
-Also - I am no damsel in distress waiting for him haha. I have a ton going in my life outside of the relationship realm and I'm doing pretty well for myself. Our relationship and it's eventual progression to family is the cherry on the top of the cake, not the cake itself. Hope that helps to explain my viewpoint...

 

[BaileyB]

10 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Bailey, Rebecca, StillAFool - to me it makes complete sense why he hasn't left for all these years. He has been comfortable as is. For the same reason why people stay in a comfortable low pay low reward job for many years - it is easy to stay, harder to leave.

-Also - they started in a time that he was in a very rough patch - I don't know whether it was a decision taken in time of hurt or there was some gratitude, I don't know. Probably irrelevant.

StillAFool - knowing his personality, no decision is easy for him, especially a decision involving direct confrontation.

This is very typical OW spin - it makes complete sense to you, but it sounds like a bunch of excuses and rationalization to anyone not waiting and believing this man is going to leave his marriage to be with you. 

[RebeccaR]

10 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I wanted to focus on the unusual aspects of our relationship

There’s nothings at all unusual except the frozen embryos, which sounds like was only done because your doctor required you to create embryos rather than just freezing your eggs. It’s a little weird that he gave you his sperm for this, but he sounds like a weird guy. Otherwise, literally the same as almost every OW story. I’m not saying this to make you feel unspecial, just hoping you open your eyes

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, RebeccaR said:

There’s nothings at all unusual except the frozen embryos, which sounds like was only done because your doctor required you to create embryos rather than just freezing your eggs. It’s a little weird that he gave you his sperm for this, but he sounds like a weird guy. Otherwise, literally the same as almost every OW story. I’m not saying this to make you feel unspecial, just hoping you open your eyes

In my opinion the unusual is

-how much time we spend together on daily basis and extent of involvement 

-the fact he introduced me to family and vice versa (+friends, church, neighbors, coworkers)

-that she has never been mentioned and we both use evasive language (here I am more asking how to reverse that; above two are the atypical points)

Are any of these typical for “OW”? Could you share a similar story?

[TamBuktu]

6 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

This is very typical OW spin - it makes complete sense to you, but it sounds like a bunch of excuses and rationalization to anyone not waiting and believing this man is going to leave his marriage to be with you. 

Does the 3 points in my last response sound typical to you?

I’d be happy to leave it to skeleton of facts and avoid sharing my thoughts,  this was the point anyway.

 

[Wiseman2]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

we both use evasive language

You're not happy with him going home to his wife every night, if you want a commitment and family (with him).

Dancing around the elephant in the room to not rock the boat has two purposes.

You quell your fear of rejection and he keeps the status quo of having a mistress and going home to a wife.

So talking in circles and strange cryptic language helps both of you avoid the hard truths. It allows you to ride the fantasy.

[TamBuktu]

4 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

You're not happy with him going home to his wife every night, if you want a commitment and family (with him).

Dancing around the elephant in the room to not rock the boat has two purposes.

You quell your fear of rejection and he keeps the status quo of having a mistress and going home to a wife.

So talking in circles and strange cryptic language helps both of you avoid the hard truths. It allows you to ride the fantasy.

I can only speak for myself: at this point i don’t have a fear of rejection. Worse that can happen is he just won’t answer or change the topic.

I just feel uncomfortable changing the language abruptly after so long. I don’t know how to help myself on this.

(note we use nicknames for everyone else too, it has become our style of communication; and yes it’s unhealthy)

 

[Wiseman2]

5 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Worse that can happen is he just won’t answer or change the topic.

Or if you stand up for yourself and state that you won't continue seeing a married man and want a man of your own and family of your own, he'll end it. Right now you're both content in your bubble. However it depends on how long you are willing to play along and pretend he's not going home to his wife every night.

[RebeccaR]

The reason he doesn’t mention his wife is because he’s uncomfortable with the existence of the affair. Yes, there are other cases where the AP has met family - see “my husband has been cheating on me for 3 years” in the infidelity forum where the MM has told his brother his OW is the love of his life. Does your MM introduce you as his life partner or even girlfriend, or just a friend? And many OW and MMs spend all day together at work, some go on vacations together. In the case of the cheating husband above, he and his OW are buying property together. All these stories and so many more are available to read here - have you read any?? Read as many as you can, it’s incredibly illuminating.

Edited November 5, 2021 by RebeccaR

[TamBuktu]

9 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Or if you stand up for yourself and state that you won't continue seeing a married man and want a man of your own and family of your own, he'll end it. Right now you're both content in your bubble. However it depends on how long you are willing to play along and pretend he's not going home to his wife every night.

I have already said all of that few days ago without using the M word but i was explicit. He didn't end it or threatened to end it. He said this is clear to him, and I am his future. And said he will do something about it, although the dark side is very dark.

That's why i responded to Elaine that I need to follow up on this conversation within this month, just trying to pace it properly. 

Does this change any of your thoughts?